I'd like if they gave base bard 3 magical secrets, with first one being around level 5-6.
That would make up for neutering the spell list, make up for delaying the next magical secrets, and give bard an opportunity to grab from all 3 spell lists. It just fits IMO.
I think halving the number of uses of inspiration while also delaying font of inspiration AND ALSO giving even more options that rely on the resource they just halved is a much bigger problem.
You need to have some kind of limits on spell selection. If a bard can eventually choose from literally every spell in the game for their loadout after each rest, why would anyone play any other full caster when they can just play a bard and also get access to armor and weapon proficiencies, expertise, plus free heals without spell slots via bardic inspiration?
The subclass progression does some pretty rough things for these classes. The features have to be really appealing, or else levels 3-6 don't feel very good. And those were traditionally some of the most exciting times for characters. Every class is now seeing delays in features we considered core to what they were. That's not necessarily bad, but it puts a lot of pressure on the subclasses to all be really well thought out.
You need to have some kind of limits on spell selection. If a bard can eventually choose from literally every spell in the game for their loadout after each rest, why would anyone play any other full caster when they can just play a bard and also get access to armor and weapon proficiencies, expertise, plus free heals without spell slots via bardic inspiration?
You need to have some kind of limits on spell selection. If a bard can eventually choose from literally every spell in the game for their loadout after each rest, why would anyone play any other full caster when they can just play a bard and also get access to armor and weapon proficiencies, expertise, plus free heals without spell slots via bardic inspiration?
You need to have some kind of limits on spell selection. If a bard can eventually choose from literally every spell in the game for their loadout after each rest, why would anyone play any other full caster when they can just play a bard and also get access to armor and weapon proficiencies, expertise, plus free heals without spell slots via bardic inspiration?
They only get 2 spells from each list...
They are a prepared caster. They can have 2 from a given list at any one point in time, after a long rest. They can choose any 2 other spells. Getting 3 magical secrets is effectively getting 6 spells from any spell list that you want with no limitations, then you get your normal limitations which aren't as limiting as people are acting like it is.
Right, it's the fact they are prepared spells that opens up basically the entire lists.
That's not to say you shouldn't feel upset by losing something. A lot of us have over one thing or another. Especially for beloved classes.
I don't think the Lore bard looks especially fun at the moment either. Their bardic inspiration is so limited at the start. But the Magical Secrets in the new UA does look pretty good to me because of preparation.
Right, it's the fact they are prepared spells that opens up basically the entire lists.
That's not to say you shouldn't feel upset by losing something. A lot of us have over one thing or another. Especially for beloved classes.
I don't think the Lore bard looks especially fun at the moment either. Their bardic inspiration is so limited at the start. But the Magical Secrets in the new UA does look pretty good to me because of preparation.
I agree that lore bards look lack luster. I like that you are forced to take the knowledge skills, but I REALLY want something that leans into the "teller of ancient stories and myths" from the lore bard, and it just doesn't evoke that for me.
Right, it's the fact they are prepared spells that opens up basically the entire lists.
That's not to say you shouldn't feel upset by losing something. A lot of us have over one thing or another. Especially for beloved classes.
I don't think the Lore bard looks especially fun at the moment either. Their bardic inspiration is so limited at the start. But the Magical Secrets in the new UA does look pretty good to me because of preparation.
I agree that lore bards look lack luster. I like that you are forced to take the knowledge skills, but I REALLY want something that leans into the "teller of ancient stories and myths" from the lore bard, and it just doesn't evoke that for me.
Totally agree. I think they could drop Improved Cutting Words for something more thematic.
Seems like such an obvious place to tie in the new Study rule. "Whenever you Study, if you succeed, you give someone temporary HP because you relay the information in such a compelling way," or something.
Maybe they can lean into the lore and study aspect and ditch some of the performance based upgrades to inspiration and make one of the upgrades "Choose two spells from the starting bard list, when casting those spells your proficiency bonus is doubled"
My thoughts were take the level 14 ability make that the thing you get at level 3 instead of cutting words. And then at level 6 Minor magical secrets. You can prepare one first or second level spell of your choice without list or school restriction. Level 10 when your inspiration die is used on a int or wisdom test the target gains temp HP equal to the roll +your Cha Modifier. Level 14, not sure, could be something else that had to do with int and wisdom checks, or something to do with those intelligence skills, or something to upgrade the magical secrets, but those are just my thoughts.
I love the ides of cutting words and cunning inspiration being added to like a college of tricks, or college of the jester bard or something.
You need to have some kind of limits on spell selection. If a bard can eventually choose from literally every spell in the game for their loadout after each rest, why would anyone play any other full caster when they can just play a bard and also get access to armor and weapon proficiencies, expertise, plus free heals without spell slots via bardic inspiration?
They only get 2 spells from each list...
They are a prepared caster. They can have 2 from a given list at any one point in time, after a long rest. They can choose any 2 other spells. Getting 3 magical secrets is effectively getting 6 spells from any spell list that you want with no limitations, then you get your normal limitations which aren't as limiting as people are acting like it is.
But it is still only 2 from each list, not "6 spells from any spell list."
If for example they choose counterspell and fireball from the arcane spell list, they can't choose wall of force or tiny hut, etc.
In my experience, prepare casters keep a core list of spells that doesn't change and only change a handful of spells as needed. I feel like this stay the same. The new limitations on spells of each level should also keep this in check.
Either way, I feel like magical secrets needs to be gotten at level 5 or 6 to regain access to powerful 3rd level support spells like dispel magic, tiny hut, and glyph of warding
You need to have some kind of limits on spell selection. If a bard can eventually choose from literally every spell in the game for their loadout after each rest, why would anyone play any other full caster when they can just play a bard and also get access to armor and weapon proficiencies, expertise, plus free heals without spell slots via bardic inspiration?
They only get 2 spells from each list...
They are a prepared caster. They can have 2 from a given list at any one point in time, after a long rest. They can choose any 2 other spells. Getting 3 magical secrets is effectively getting 6 spells from any spell list that you want with no limitations, then you get your normal limitations which aren't as limiting as people are acting like it is.
But it is still only 2 from each list, not "6 spells from any spell list."
If for example they choose counterspell and fireball from the arcane spell list, they can't choose wall of force or tiny hut, etc.
In my experience, prepare casters keep a core list of spells that doesn't change and only change a handful of spells as needed. I feel like this stay the same. The new limitations on spells of each level should also keep this in check.
Either way, I feel like magical secrets needs to be gotten at level 5 or 6 to regain access to powerful 3rd level support spells like dispel magic, tiny hut, and glyph of warding
Bards need a weakness in their spell list/selection or builds like every other class has. If the current implementation isn't to people's liking I think they should give WOtC an alternative that shifts the weakness elsewhere while still maintaining one, not just demand that the weakness be removed so that bards can have the most skill boosts, the widest spell selection, the most spells available at one time (pending the UA for casters of course that may add bunches of free prepared spells), a larger hit die than casters, better armor than casters, and reaction heals that don't use spell slots and eventually recharge every fight. Any one class cannot have it all, they each need to be weak somewhere.
I get the feelings Zoenella. That change was certainly an 'ouch'.
My only thing to offer as a solace is that the new way Magic Initiate works can offset that loss slightly. It's not as good as being able to gobble up those sweet sweet 3rd level spells like counterspell or fireball, But being able to pick up something like an evocation or abjuration from the Arcane list can help a little bit. Plus you can grab another Magic Initiate at 4 and dabble in all 3 schools of magic. Not to mention that quite a few races are coming equipped with castable spells naturally.
Not saying it doesn't hurt a lot. Just hoping to provide a little silver lining with the whole package.
It's frustrating that the defense for the UA bard always seems to ignore when their features come online.
If you play a bard from this UA, it's highly unlikely you will ever even get your first dip into Magical Secrets.
If you gave all bards a dip in Magical Secrets at level 6 (as suggested by DxJxC), you'll get access to one full spell list for your playthrough, and your campaign will end before you get to the next Magical Secrets.
If you are lucky enough to play a high-level bard, who cares if the spell list is similar to a wizard's? There are still enough class features to distinguish them.
It's frustrating that the defense for the UA bard always seems to ignore when their features come online.
If you play a bard from this UA, it's highly unlikely you will ever even get your first dip into Magical Secrets.
If you gave all bards a dip in Magical Secrets at level 6 (as suggested by DxJxC), you'll get access to one full spell list for your playthrough, and your campaign will end before you get to the next Magical Secrets.
If you are lucky enough to play a high-level bard, who cares if the spell list is similar to a wizard's? There are still enough class features to distinguish them.
Just putting out my actual anger. Change to magical secrets in no way make up for removing the lore bard’s main feature.
yea I gets it’s UA.
dont care it’s rubbish
It's not Magic its Science
I'd like if they gave base bard 3 magical secrets, with first one being around level 5-6.
That would make up for neutering the spell list, make up for delaying the next magical secrets, and give bard an opportunity to grab from all 3 spell lists. It just fits IMO.
I think halving the number of uses of inspiration while also delaying font of inspiration AND ALSO giving even more options that rely on the resource they just halved is a much bigger problem.
You need to have some kind of limits on spell selection. If a bard can eventually choose from literally every spell in the game for their loadout after each rest, why would anyone play any other full caster when they can just play a bard and also get access to armor and weapon proficiencies, expertise, plus free heals without spell slots via bardic inspiration?
The subclass progression does some pretty rough things for these classes. The features have to be really appealing, or else levels 3-6 don't feel very good. And those were traditionally some of the most exciting times for characters. Every class is now seeing delays in features we considered core to what they were. That's not necessarily bad, but it puts a lot of pressure on the subclasses to all be really well thought out.
They only get 2 spells from each list...
They are a prepared caster. They can have 2 from a given list at any one point in time, after a long rest. They can choose any 2 other spells. Getting 3 magical secrets is effectively getting 6 spells from any spell list that you want with no limitations, then you get your normal limitations which aren't as limiting as people are acting like it is.
Right, it's the fact they are prepared spells that opens up basically the entire lists.
That's not to say you shouldn't feel upset by losing something. A lot of us have over one thing or another. Especially for beloved classes.
I don't think the Lore bard looks especially fun at the moment either. Their bardic inspiration is so limited at the start. But the Magical Secrets in the new UA does look pretty good to me because of preparation.
I agree that lore bards look lack luster. I like that you are forced to take the knowledge skills, but I REALLY want something that leans into the "teller of ancient stories and myths" from the lore bard, and it just doesn't evoke that for me.
Totally agree. I think they could drop Improved Cutting Words for something more thematic.
Seems like such an obvious place to tie in the new Study rule. "Whenever you Study, if you succeed, you give someone temporary HP because you relay the information in such a compelling way," or something.
Maybe they can lean into the lore and study aspect and ditch some of the performance based upgrades to inspiration and make one of the upgrades "Choose two spells from the starting bard list, when casting those spells your proficiency bonus is doubled"
My thoughts were take the level 14 ability make that the thing you get at level 3 instead of cutting words. And then at level 6 Minor magical secrets. You can prepare one first or second level spell of your choice without list or school restriction. Level 10 when your inspiration die is used on a int or wisdom test the target gains temp HP equal to the roll +your Cha Modifier. Level 14, not sure, could be something else that had to do with int and wisdom checks, or something to do with those intelligence skills, or something to upgrade the magical secrets, but those are just my thoughts.
I love the ides of cutting words and cunning inspiration being added to like a college of tricks, or college of the jester bard or something.
But it is still only 2 from each list, not "6 spells from any spell list."
If for example they choose counterspell and fireball from the arcane spell list, they can't choose wall of force or tiny hut, etc.
In my experience, prepare casters keep a core list of spells that doesn't change and only change a handful of spells as needed. I feel like this stay the same. The new limitations on spells of each level should also keep this in check.
Either way, I feel like magical secrets needs to be gotten at level 5 or 6 to regain access to powerful 3rd level support spells like dispel magic, tiny hut, and glyph of warding
Bards need a weakness in their spell list/selection or builds like every other class has. If the current implementation isn't to people's liking I think they should give WOtC an alternative that shifts the weakness elsewhere while still maintaining one, not just demand that the weakness be removed so that bards can have the most skill boosts, the widest spell selection, the most spells available at one time (pending the UA for casters of course that may add bunches of free prepared spells), a larger hit die than casters, better armor than casters, and reaction heals that don't use spell slots and eventually recharge every fight. Any one class cannot have it all, they each need to be weak somewhere.
I get the feelings Zoenella. That change was certainly an 'ouch'.
My only thing to offer as a solace is that the new way Magic Initiate works can offset that loss slightly. It's not as good as being able to gobble up those sweet sweet 3rd level spells like counterspell or fireball, But being able to pick up something like an evocation or abjuration from the Arcane list can help a little bit. Plus you can grab another Magic Initiate at 4 and dabble in all 3 schools of magic. Not to mention that quite a few races are coming equipped with castable spells naturally.
Not saying it doesn't hurt a lot. Just hoping to provide a little silver lining with the whole package.
It's frustrating that the defense for the UA bard always seems to ignore when their features come online.
If you play a bard from this UA, it's highly unlikely you will ever even get your first dip into Magical Secrets.
If you gave all bards a dip in Magical Secrets at level 6 (as suggested by DxJxC), you'll get access to one full spell list for your playthrough, and your campaign will end before you get to the next Magical Secrets.
If you are lucky enough to play a high-level bard, who cares if the spell list is similar to a wizard's? There are still enough class features to distinguish them.
Exactly.
What if they swapped the level 11 and 7 features? Earlier magical secrets but the short rest inspiration recharge waits to level 11.
I was going to suggest removing the short rest recharge and just doubling number of uses from the start. That scales better IMO.
Level 7 and level 15 are well spaced.