I've had this pet-peeve since the change of the "Thief" class to the "Rogue" class, and especially with 5e's handling of it. That pet-peeve is that we shouldn't assume all Rogues are Thieves. We already partially abstract that via the Thief Subclass, but we still put Thieves Tools and Thieves Cant as baked-in features of the class. OneD&D hasn't really addressed it either, so I thought I would propose a change:
Feat: Burglar (1st-Level Feat) Prerequisite: None Repeatable: No
You gain Proficiency with the Thieves Cant language.
You gain Proficiency with Thieves Tools.
You gain Proficiency with one Artisan Tool, one Martial Weapon, one Rogue skill, or one Standard Language of your choice.
Rogue:
Replace the Thieves Tool proficiency AND Thieves Cant feature with: a bonus 1st level Feat (if you want Thieves Tools and/or Thieves Cant, there's the "Criminal" and "Urchin" Backgrounds, and/or the "Burglar" Feat)
What does this accomplish? Thieves have 3 different avenues to getting their 1st level standard Thieving foundation. Meanwhile, Assassins might pick Savage Attacker instead, Scouts might pick yet another Feat, and Swashbucklers yet a different one (and so-on). This keeps the Rogue from being pigeonholed as a Thief or Criminal, and works somewhat like the Cleric "DIvine Order", helping to give basic differentiation to different builds within the class. It ALSO gives some flexibility about a Thief picking up one of the weapons that they lost in the translation from 5e to OneD&D. Similar Feats could also be created for each of the Rogue subclasses that also give flavor to Rogues or other classes independently of their Background and Background Feat.
(if the Skilled Feat allowed you to make each pick be a language, tool, or weapon, in addition to / instead of only picking skills, then there wouldn't need to be a specific Feat for this)
Rogues aren't all thieves, but they're the ones that surround the criminal element, and thus should be familiar with the tools of the trade and the secret lingo.
the criminal mastermind, the swashbuckling pirate, the investigator, the scout, the assassin, the thief.... all associated with criminals, which are the very definition of "rogue".
I mean what do you thing a "rogues gallery" is? A collection of criminals!
I think there's nothing to change about the rogue, but if you wanted to, you could have the feat for others, though, honestly, you have both the criminal and urchin backgrounds which can get you things through that.
Rogues aren't all thieves, but they're the ones that surround the criminal element, and thus should be familiar with the tools of the trade and the secret lingo.
the criminal mastermind, the swashbuckling pirate, the investigator, the scout, the assassin, the thief.... all associated with criminals, which are the very definition of "rogue".
The larger "Rogue" social archetype isn't automatically associated with crime -- just with deviation from social norms, or a loner.
"Rogues aren't all theives, but they're" ... also not all surrounded by the criminal element.
Since when are all Scouts associated with the criminal element? Cavalry scouts, scout snipers, pathfinders, or any other military type scout or reconnaissance unit? (and if we want to take it to an absurd extreme: since when are boy scouts and girls couts a criminal organization? ... I mean, sure, I refer to the latter as "the girl scout mafia" every time it's cookie season, but still.. :-) )
or all Inquisitives being associated with the criminal element? An Inquisitive could just as easily be at court (meaning noble court, not legal court) looking for disloyal nobles, or a church Inquisitor rooting out heretics.
And it's not "Swashbuckling Pirate", it's Swashbuckler. Not every Swashbuckler is a Pirate. Some of them hunt pirates. Some of them guard royalty.
Same with Mastermind: It's not "Criminal Mastermind", it's just Mastermind. It can be a leader of any organization ... it even lists courtiers (those whose primary "occupation" is being at court ... again: noble court, not legal court); courtiers aren't exactly a criminal profession.
Assassins aren't necessarily street criminal hit-men surrounded by the criminal elment. The King's sniper who kills rival nobility discretely from a distance. The Assassins in "Wanted" weren't street criminals. Remo Williams himself, maybe, but only because he used to be a cop ... but his mentor Chiun? No. How about the Hashshashin (a religious order from which the term Assassin derives), and other models of Assassins who aren't part of the "criminal" subculture.
The only Rogue subclass that is hard coded to criminality is the Thief. So why are all courtiers (Inquisitives and Masterminds) speaking Thieves Cant and learning how to use lock picks? Why are military scouts learning Thieves Cant instead of Sign Language? Religious assassin cults? The swashbuckling Musketeers (D'Artagnan, Athos, Aramis, Porthos) and their nemesis Rochefort?
Just looking at 2 or 3 proficiencies each of those should have, instead of Thieves Cant and Thieves Tools: The Musketeers should have Rapier, Musket, and Pistol. The King's Inquisitor should have History, and probably Calligrapher's Tools. The Church Inquisitor should substitute Religion for History. The Hashshashin should have Religion, Poisoner's Kit, and Disguise Kit. The scouts should have Survival, Nature, and Navigator's tools.
You could just eliminate the auto proficiency and add additional choices of proficiency when creating the character (one language, one tool). Adding an additional feat is possibly too much power creep and opens up multi class shenanigans.
Rogues aren't all thieves, but they're the ones that surround the criminal element, and thus should be familiar with the tools of the trade and the secret lingo.
the criminal mastermind, the swashbuckling pirate, the investigator, the scout, the assassin, the thief.... all associated with criminals, which are the very definition of "rogue".
The larger "Rogue" social archetype isn't automatically associated with crime -- just with deviation from social norms, or a loner.
"Rogues aren't all theives, but they're" ... also not all surrounded by the criminal element.
Since when are all Scouts associated with the criminal element? Cavalry scouts, scout snipers, pathfinders, or any other military type scout or reconnaissance unit? (and if we want to take it to an absurd extreme: since when are boy scouts and girls couts a criminal organization? ... I mean, sure, I refer to the latter as "the girl scout mafia" every time it's cookie season, but still.. :-) )
or all Inquisitives being associated with the criminal element? An Inquisitive could just as easily be at court (meaning noble court, not legal court) looking for disloyal nobles, or a church Inquisitor rooting out heretics.
And it's not "Swashbuckling Pirate", it's Swashbuckler. Not every Swashbuckler is a Pirate. Some of them hunt pirates. Some of them guard royalty.
Same with Mastermind: It's not "Criminal Mastermind", it's just Mastermind. It can be a leader of any organization ... it even lists courtiers (those whose primary "occupation" is being at court ... again: noble court, not legal court); courtiers aren't exactly a criminal profession.
Assassins aren't necessarily street criminal hit-men surrounded by the criminal elment. The King's sniper who kills rival nobility discretely from a distance. The Assassins in "Wanted" weren't street criminals. Remo Williams himself, maybe, but only because he used to be a cop ... but his mentor Chiun? No. How about the Hashshashin (a religious order from which the term Assassin derives), and other models of Assassins who aren't part of the "criminal" subculture.
The only Rogue subclass that is hard coded to criminality is the Thief. So why are all courtiers (Inquisitives and Masterminds) speaking Thieves Cant and learning how to use lock picks? Why are military scouts learning Thieves Cant instead of Sign Language? Religious assassin cults? The swashbuckling Musketeers (D'Artagnan, Athos, Aramis, Porthos) and their nemesis Rochefort?
Just looking at 2 or 3 proficiencies each of those should have, instead of Thieves Cant and Thieves Tools: The Musketeers should have Rapier, Musket, and Pistol. The King's Inquisitor should have History, and probably Calligrapher's Tools. The Church Inquisitor should substitute Religion for History. The Hashshashin should have Religion, Poisoner's Kit, and Disguise Kit. The scouts should have Survival, Nature, and Navigator's tools.
Inquisitive, regardless of court, is a cop, hence hunting criminals and associated with criminal element
Courtiers are secrets and spies, and hence, criminal element.
I think you want to the rogue abilities, but flavored to your very niche whim.
So take the rogue lass, and just role play whatever the hell you want.
Musketeer isn't anything more than a swashbucker, You can call your assassin whatever the hell you want and give it your choice of motives but it doesn't make it different enough from a regular assassin, Inquisitor would be an interesting one, but like all these, you got the barest threads to creating new subclasses, and nothing more than a skill swap.
I mean I sympathize to a degree, as i argue much the same about the bard and how instead of 3 useless instruments, they should as a class, on a whole, have 1 musical instrument, 2 languages, and a set of tools related to an artistic medium (woodworkers, potters, artist, jewelers, tinker's, and calligrapher's as a scribe), and an option of an additional one of those three.
But it's not just about "flavor" it's about giving a class some underutilized skills and lean into "jack of all trades" that ALL bards have, including the fact that ALL bards have lingusitic themed spells as well as musical. I mean part of it is that, yeah, I want to play a scribe bard or an artsy bard with a different focus... but I'm not reinventing the whole class and discarding an iconic aspect just to fit my whim. If I get told "no", well, it' not like I can't just as a DM to let me do it....
The King’s Inquisitor could be any class with proficiency in investigation and insight.
The church Inquisitor is a conquest Paladin or similar to as above any class with proficiency in insight and intimidation
The Hashshashin is probably a fighter rogue, but still should have lock picking skills
The original 5e UA scout was a fighter and the scout you speak of is a fighter with proficiency in survival and nature.
The names of the sub classes are just names that try to fulfill some fantasy troupes. In reality a swashbuckler could be a fighter sub class as well, and the assassin subclass could be a fighter or wizard or bard.
Same with Mastermind: It's not "Criminal Mastermind", it's just Mastermind. It can be a leader of any organization ... it even lists courtiers (those whose primary "occupation" is being at court ... again: noble court, not legal court); courtiers aren't exactly a criminal profession.
Noble courtier who are Inquisitives/Masterminds absolutely would still be familiar with Thieve's Cant and criminal organizations, how else are they going to source or identify poisons used to assassinate the king, or have a political opponent quietly disappear, or have those fake documents planted to throw suspicion off of themselves, or steal the real documents proving someone what embezzling from the royal coffers?
You could just eliminate the auto proficiency and add additional choices of proficiency when creating the character (one language, one tool). Adding an additional feat is possibly too much power creep and opens up multi class shenanigans.
Yeah, I agree that a (structred) proficiency substitution is probably better than swapping it out with a Feat.
Reasoning:All the way back to 1e, many players used the Thief class not as a criminal, but as a "skilled normal" who was neither focused on martial prowess like a Fighter, but also not focused on spell casting like a Cleric or Magic-User.When 3e came out, there was a statement in the class description that the newly renamed class (now Rogue) was not always criminal in nature, giving several alternative ideas. 5e makes a similar statement about the Rogue class.However, there is still a "vestigial tail" of the old Thief class that remains: proficiency with Thieves' Tools and knowledge of Thieves Cant.These two proficiencies don't match many of the possible archetypes and builds that fit within the Rogue class. OneD&D presents an opportunity to finally remove this vestigial tail, and even offers comparable mechanics in other classes that allow a class progression to begin tailoring itself before the Subclass is even picked:the Cleric's Divine Order, and the Warlock's Pact Boon.By using a comparable mechanic to replace "Thieves' Tools" and "Thieves Cant", more Rogue archetypes can be better implemented without removing the legacy Rogue builds.
Rogue:
Replace the Thieves Tool proficiency AND Thieves Cant feature with:
1st-Level Feature: "Vocational Training": Pick two proficiencies.Each can be any Language, Musical Instrument, Skill, Tool, or Weapon.
Remove Burglar's Pack and Thieves Tools from the class starting equipment, replace with an appropriate Pack and any Tools, Instruments, or Weapons chosen as part of Vocational Training.
Examples listed as: subclass (trope): Background, and Vocational Training picks:
Mastermind (cult leader): Acolyte, Charlatan, or Cultist, pick two from Deception, Insight, Performance, Religion
The following Backgrounds are partially updated from 5e, to work with the above Rogue builds.
Background: Merchant
Ability Scores: Charisma +2, Wisdom +1 Skill Proficiencies: Animal Handling, Persuasion Tool Proficiency: Vehicles (Land) Language: (pick one of your choice) Feat: Linguist or Skilled Equipment: Merchant's Scale, Fine Clothes, Belt Pouch, Mule and Cart, Rations (2 days), Feed (2 days), 15 gp
You are a recent or former merchant, traveling from city to city in caravans (perhaps your own caravan, or part of a larger caravan).For whatever reason, you have left that life of sales and haggling behind you, but you may still know other merchants from your time among them.
Background: Spy
Ability Scores: Charisma +2, Wisdom +1 Skill Proficiencies: Deception, Stealth Tool Proficiency: Forgery Kit Language: (pick one of your choice) Feat: Actor or Linguist or Lucky or Skilled Equipment: Forgery Kit, a set of papers and a set of clothes related to two different identities, 15 gp
You have made a career of infiltrating organizations to report about them back to a sponsor or mentor.You have recently either retired from that life, lost your sponsor/mentor in some fashion, or perhaps had your cover burned by someone (possibly your sponsor).Now you need to find a new line of work.
Background: Traveler
Ability Scores: Wisdom +2, Constitution +1 Skill Proficiencies: Animal Handling, Survival Tool Proficiency: Cartographer's Tools Language: (pick one of your choice) Feat: Linguist or Skilled Equipment: Bedroll, Rations (2 days), Backpack, Traveler's Clothes, Lamp, Oil (3 flasks), Book (travel notes and diary), pen, ink, Cartographer's Tools, 10 gp
(your background is similar to that of the 5e Far Traveler, or a less religious version of the Pilgrim, a non-caster version of the Guide, and possibly the child of a Merchant, but not a Merchant themself)
Background: Courtier
Ability Scores: Charisma +2, Wisdom +1 Skill Proficiencies: Insight, Persuasion Tool Proficiency: (pick one Musical Instrument) Language: (pick one of your choice) Feat: Linguist or Musician or Skilled Equipment: Fine Clothes, Perfume, family broach or signet, 20 gp
Other Rogue changes/additions (separate from my initial statement):
Rogue Subclass: Soulknife
3rd-Level: Change: Psychic Blades
Psychic Blades always appear when you need to use them, not just at the start of an Attack action or Bonus Action attack.So they can be used with any feature or ability that needs or uses a weapon.
Psychic Blades no longer get their inherent Bonus Action attack, but they do add the Light property (picking up the bonus attack from that property).If the Rogue manages to get the Mastery property, the damage die for that attack is NOT reduced.
Their Mastery property is Nick.
Rogue Subclass: Eremite Vagabond
You are a traveler of the world, usually on the outskirts of any society as you travel.Being an outsider causes some to call you a vagrant or nomad, others to describe you as a migrant or feral wild mystic.You have a wanderlust that keeps you from putting down permanent settlement roots, but this type of living also keeps you on the move.
3rd Level:
Spellcasting:As with Arcane Trickster, but you use the Primal spell list, and Wisdom is your spell casting attribute.You may use a Druidic Focus as a spell casting focus.Instead of Mage Hand and spell school restrictions, you have the following:
Two of your three cantrips are Friends and Spare the Dying, and you must always keep these cantrips prepared.
One of your 1st Level Spells is, and must remain, Find Familiar.
Naturalist: You gain proficiency with the Nature and Survival skills if you don't already have them. If you already have one or both of those proficiencies, you may instead replace this with Herbalism Kit, Healer's Kit, Woodcarver's Tools, Leather Worker's Tools, or a Rogue skill.You also gain Expertise with the Nature and Survival skills.
9th Level:
Nature's Friend: When you cast Friends on a Beast or Plant of Intelligence 4 or less, they do not automatically become hostile toward you when the spell ends.You may cast "Spare the Dying" on a Beast or Plant to repair cosmetic damage, scars, and minor injuries not reflected by hp loss, etc.(these minor injuries must not rise to the level of requiring a Lesser Restoration nor Greater Restoration spell).
Natural Sneak: You may prepare the "Invisibility" and/or "Misty Step" spells.They DO count against your number of spells prepared.
Bonus Cantrip: You learn an extra (4th) cantrip from the Primal spell list.
13th Level:
Land's Stride: the same as the 5e Ranger 8th level class feature.
Nurturing Aura: You always have the "Aura of Vitality" spell prepared, and it doesn't count against your number of spells prepared.
Living off the Land: Once per short rest, you may cast the Goodberry spell without having it prepared nor using a spell slot.
17th Level:
Once you have 4th level spell slots, you have the "Greater Invisibility" and "Aura of Purity" spells prepared.These spells do not count against your number of spells prepared.
You always have the "Commune with Nature" and "Greater Restoration" spells prepared, and they don't count against your number of spells prepared.You may cast one or the other them once per Long Rest without using a spell slot.
example tropes:
hobomancer: Hermit or Pilgrim or Traveler, Religion, Survival
solitary healer: Hermit or Farmer, pick two from: Herbalism Kit, Healer's Kit, Nature, Survival
Rogue Subclass: Preacher
Whether you're are a traveling missionary, a tentpole revivalist, or a priest of a local parish, or maybe even a swindling false prophet, you are the semi-miraculous practitioner of a religious or spiritual tradition.Your skills are more about swaying the masses than grand miracles.
3rd Level:
Spellcasting:As with Arcane Trickster, but you use the Divine spell list, and Charisma is your spell casting attribute.You may use a Holy Symbol (including a prayer book) as a spell casting focus.Instead of Mage Hand and spell school restrictions, you have the following:
Two of your three cantrips are Friends and Thaumaturgy, and you must always keep these cantrips prepared.
One of your 1st Level Spells is, and must remain, Charm Person.
Evangelist: You gain proficiency with the Performance and Religion skills if you don't already have them. If you already have one or both of those proficiencies, you may instead replace this with a Musical Instrument (esp. a pitch pipe) or a Rogue skill.You also gain Expertise with the Performance and Religion skills.
9th Level:
Divine Word: When you cast Friends on a Humanoid, they do not automatically become hostile toward you when the spell ends (but they might wonder why they were swayed by you, and become wary of you).You may cast "Spare the Dying" on a Humanoid to repair cosmetic damage, scars, and minor injuries not reflected by hp loss, etc.(these minor injuries must not rise to the level of requiring a Lesser Restoration nor Greater Restoration spell).
Silver Tongue: You may prepare the "Detect Thoughts" and/or "Suggestion" spells.They DO count against your number of spells prepared.
Bonus Cantrip: You learn an extra (4th) cantrip from the Primal spell list.
13th Level:
Divine Resistance: You always have the "Protection from Energy" spell prepared, and it doesn't count against your number of spells prepared.
Divine Protection: Once per short rest, you may cast the Shield of Faith spell without having it prepared, nor using a spell slot, nor using your concentration.
17th Level:
Once you have 4th level spell slots, you have the "Arcane Eye" and "Compulsion" spells prepared.These spells do not count against your number of spells prepared.
You always have the "Commune" and "Greater Restoration" spells prepared, and they don't count against your number of spells prepared.You may cast one or the other them once per Long Rest without using a spell slot.
example tropes:
faith healer: Acolyte or Pilgrim, Religion, Healer's Kit
errant missionary: Acolyte or Pilgrim or Traveler, Religion, Persuasion
reformed: Criminal or Charlatan or Soldier or Urchin, a Martial Weapon, Sleight of Hand
false prophet: Charlatan or Entertainer, Religion, pick one from Deception or Performance
Well with the UA Backgrounds you can choose to start any class with:
Skill Proficiencies: Stealth, Sleight of Hand
Tool Proficiency: Thieves' Tools
Language Proficiency: Thieves' Cant
Starting Equipment: 2 x Daggers, Dark Common Clothing, Thieves' Tools, Burglar's Pack, 4GP
Starting Feat: Skilled
It's basically a Rogue without being a Rogue. Thieves' Tools are probably the only tool proficiency that commonly comes up in play.
I built a custom background in D&D Beyond for this, although I can adjust the proficiencies if the class has those options already.
Yeah, the "Criminal" and "Urchin" backgrounds in OneD&D (playtest document #1) make the built-in features of the Rogue fairly redundant.
Except when I build a rogue, Idon't use those backgrounds, so they aren't redundant. I should be pigeonholed into a specific background to fit my class, FFS.
Well with the UA Backgrounds you can choose to start any class with:
Skill Proficiencies: Stealth, Sleight of Hand
Tool Proficiency: Thieves' Tools
Language Proficiency: Thieves' Cant
Starting Equipment: 2 x Daggers, Dark Common Clothing, Thieves' Tools, Burglar's Pack, 4GP
Starting Feat: Skilled
It's basically a Rogue without being a Rogue. Thieves' Tools are probably the only tool proficiency that commonly comes up in play.
I built a custom background in D&D Beyond for this, although I can adjust the proficiencies if the class has those options already.
Yeah, the "Criminal" and "Urchin" backgrounds in OneD&D (playtest document #1) make the built-in features of the Rogue fairly redundant.
Except when I build a rogue, Idon't use those backgrounds, so they aren't redundant. I should be pigeonholed into a specific background to fit my class, FFS.
Nothing about what I've said prevents you from doing the exact same thing you already did. I'm not preventing anyone from doing the same thing a Rogue currently does. You're mention being pigeonholed, but preventing being pigeonholed into a criminal role is exactly what I'm doing. You still want the 1st level Rogue to have Thieves Cant and Thieve's Tools via their class and not background? You can still do that. You want to be a "skilled normal" Rogue who doesn't have any kind of criminal association? You can't really do that with the 5e and OneD&D-as-is Rogue because they have a built-in assumption in the mechanics that you have some form of criminal skills/association, even though the fluff/lore says otherwise .. and even if doesn't make sense at all to your skilled-normal concept. (for which I have given a ton of examples).
With my method, you can take whatever background you want, and use the 1st level Vocational Training to take Thieves Cant and Thieves Tools. _exactly_ the same result as without my change.
So a starting Rogue gets 4 skill proficiencies, 2 skill expertise, a tool proficiency (which can be Thieves' Tools), and a language (which can be Thieves' Cant).
However we don't really have to worry about how the character allocates their +1s and/or +2, the equipment that they buy. They have 50gp from their background, and 110gp as a Rogue.
With 160gp you should be able to buy everything you think you'll need on startup, including an Arcane Focus if you intend to play an Arcane Trickster.
For me I'd pick.
Studded leather 45gp
2 Shortswords 20gp
2 Daggers 4gp
Shortbow 25gp
20 Arrows 1gp
Quiver 1gp
Thieves' Tools 25gp
Arcane Focus (Crystal) 10gp
Burglar's Pack 16gp
Pouch 0.5gp
Common Clothes (Dark) 0.5gp
If my calculations are correct that's 148gp, leaving me with 12gp to stick in my pouch.
I’d prefer the Rogue to be the non-magical expertise (but for the Arcane Trickster) one, instead so stereotyped to thieving, then allow players to mold the character. But I doubt WotC to make a so deep change to the class.
I’d prefer the Rogue to be the non-magical expertise (but for the Arcane Trickster) one, instead so stereotyped to thieving, then allow players to mold the character. But I doubt WotC to make a so deep change to the class.
As a general principle, I heartily agree… but I also see the value of 1/3 caster subclasses for the Fighter, Monk, and Rogue. It’s especially useful in games that might not be using the multiclass rules.
My quibble there is: I don’t like to see only one of the three caster types represented. I want to see one of those subclasses for each type (arcane, divine, primal) or a subclass that picks. The EK could easily be done as a “pick one”, and slightly different spell restrictions based on what you picked. I don’t think that works for the AT, because there’s a lot of theme built in to the subclass, where the EK doesn’t really.
As for whether or not WOTC would do it: thematically they did, when 3e was released. And they’ve basically made the same type of 1st level customization for the Cleric and Warlock… so I don’t think it’s a big stretch/ask to see it done for the Rogue.
So a starting Rogue gets 4 skill proficiencies, 2 skill expertise, a tool proficiency (which can be Thieves' Tools), and a language (which can be Thieves' Cant).
I was trying to be a little more flexible than "a tool proficiency and a language pick", but even that is preferable to a hard-coded tool and hard-coded language.
Thieve’s cant is much like Druidic is meant to be a special language that no one would teach you unless you are part of that lifestyle. I really don’t see a point in arguing over this, so it’s easier to give in especially when what they are asking for won’t bother anyone else’s play or limit anyone’s play style. The only problem I see is party expectations not being met. A rogue who can’t pick locks might make some party members frown, but that’s their problem. Proficiencies should read, “Tool: Thieve’s tools or any tool of choice.” Starting equipment should read, “Burglar’s pack or any pack of choice” and “Thieve’s tools or any proficient tool.” The fist level feature has to be changed to:
1ST LEVEL: Rogue’s Tongue You picked up various languages in the communities where you plied your roguish talents. You know Thieves’ Cant or a Standard Language, and one other language of your choice, which you choose from the Standard Languages or Rare Languages tables.
I've had this pet-peeve since the change of the "Thief" class to the "Rogue" class, and especially with 5e's handling of it. That pet-peeve is that we shouldn't assume all Rogues are Thieves. We already partially abstract that via the Thief Subclass, but we still put Thieves Tools and Thieves Cant as baked-in features of the class. OneD&D hasn't really addressed it either, so I thought I would propose a change:
Feat: Burglar
(1st-Level Feat)
Prerequisite: None
Repeatable: No
Rogue:
Replace the Thieves Tool proficiency AND Thieves Cant feature with: a bonus 1st level Feat
(if you want Thieves Tools and/or Thieves Cant, there's the "Criminal" and "Urchin" Backgrounds, and/or the "Burglar" Feat)
What does this accomplish? Thieves have 3 different avenues to getting their 1st level standard Thieving foundation. Meanwhile, Assassins might pick Savage Attacker instead, Scouts might pick yet another Feat, and Swashbucklers yet a different one (and so-on). This keeps the Rogue from being pigeonholed as a Thief or Criminal, and works somewhat like the Cleric "DIvine Order", helping to give basic differentiation to different builds within the class. It ALSO gives some flexibility about a Thief picking up one of the weapons that they lost in the translation from 5e to OneD&D. Similar Feats could also be created for each of the Rogue subclasses that also give flavor to Rogues or other classes independently of their Background and Background Feat.
(if the Skilled Feat allowed you to make each pick be a language, tool, or weapon, in addition to / instead of only picking skills, then there wouldn't need to be a specific Feat for this)
Rogues aren't all thieves, but they're the ones that surround the criminal element, and thus should be familiar with the tools of the trade and the secret lingo.
the criminal mastermind, the swashbuckling pirate, the investigator, the scout, the assassin, the thief.... all associated with criminals, which are the very definition of "rogue".
I mean what do you thing a "rogues gallery" is? A collection of criminals!
I think there's nothing to change about the rogue, but if you wanted to, you could have the feat for others, though, honestly, you have both the criminal and urchin backgrounds which can get you things through that.
The larger "Rogue" social archetype isn't automatically associated with crime -- just with deviation from social norms, or a loner.
"Rogues aren't all theives, but they're" ... also not all surrounded by the criminal element.
Since when are all Scouts associated with the criminal element? Cavalry scouts, scout snipers, pathfinders, or any other military type scout or reconnaissance unit? (and if we want to take it to an absurd extreme: since when are boy scouts and girls couts a criminal organization? ... I mean, sure, I refer to the latter as "the girl scout mafia" every time it's cookie season, but still.. :-) )
or all Inquisitives being associated with the criminal element? An Inquisitive could just as easily be at court (meaning noble court, not legal court) looking for disloyal nobles, or a church Inquisitor rooting out heretics.
And it's not "Swashbuckling Pirate", it's Swashbuckler. Not every Swashbuckler is a Pirate. Some of them hunt pirates. Some of them guard royalty.
Same with Mastermind: It's not "Criminal Mastermind", it's just Mastermind. It can be a leader of any organization ... it even lists courtiers (those whose primary "occupation" is being at court ... again: noble court, not legal court); courtiers aren't exactly a criminal profession.
Assassins aren't necessarily street criminal hit-men surrounded by the criminal elment. The King's sniper who kills rival nobility discretely from a distance. The Assassins in "Wanted" weren't street criminals. Remo Williams himself, maybe, but only because he used to be a cop ... but his mentor Chiun? No. How about the Hashshashin (a religious order from which the term Assassin derives), and other models of Assassins who aren't part of the "criminal" subculture.
The only Rogue subclass that is hard coded to criminality is the Thief. So why are all courtiers (Inquisitives and Masterminds) speaking Thieves Cant and learning how to use lock
picks? Why are military scouts learning Thieves Cant instead of Sign Language? Religious assassin cults? The swashbuckling Musketeers (D'Artagnan, Athos, Aramis, Porthos) and their nemesis Rochefort?
Just looking at 2 or 3 proficiencies each of those should have, instead of Thieves Cant and Thieves Tools:
The Musketeers should have Rapier, Musket, and Pistol.
The King's Inquisitor should have History, and probably Calligrapher's Tools.
The Church Inquisitor should substitute Religion for History.
The Hashshashin should have Religion, Poisoner's Kit, and Disguise Kit.
The scouts should have Survival, Nature, and Navigator's tools.
You could just eliminate the auto proficiency and add additional choices of proficiency when creating the character (one language, one tool). Adding an additional feat is possibly too much power creep and opens up multi class shenanigans.
Inquisitive, regardless of court, is a cop, hence hunting criminals and associated with criminal element
Courtiers are secrets and spies, and hence, criminal element.
I think you want to the rogue abilities, but flavored to your very niche whim.
So take the rogue lass, and just role play whatever the hell you want.
Musketeer isn't anything more than a swashbucker, You can call your assassin whatever the hell you want and give it your choice of motives but it doesn't make it different enough from a regular assassin, Inquisitor would be an interesting one, but like all these, you got the barest threads to creating new subclasses, and nothing more than a skill swap.
I mean I sympathize to a degree, as i argue much the same about the bard and how instead of 3 useless instruments, they should as a class, on a whole, have 1 musical instrument, 2 languages, and a set of tools related to an artistic medium (woodworkers, potters, artist, jewelers, tinker's, and calligrapher's as a scribe), and an option of an additional one of those three.
But it's not just about "flavor" it's about giving a class some underutilized skills and lean into "jack of all trades" that ALL bards have, including the fact that ALL bards have lingusitic themed spells as well as musical. I mean part of it is that, yeah, I want to play a scribe bard or an artsy bard with a different focus... but I'm not reinventing the whole class and discarding an iconic aspect just to fit my whim. If I get told "no", well, it' not like I can't just as a DM to let me do it....
Well with the UA Backgrounds you can choose to start any class with:
Skill Proficiencies: Stealth, Sleight of Hand
Tool Proficiency: Thieves' Tools
Language Proficiency: Thieves' Cant
Starting Equipment: 2 x Daggers, Dark Common Clothing, Thieves' Tools, Burglar's Pack, 4GP
Starting Feat: Skilled
It's basically a Rogue without being a Rogue. Thieves' Tools are probably the only tool proficiency that commonly comes up in play.
I built a custom background in D&D Beyond for this, although I can adjust the proficiencies if the class has those options already.
A musketeer is a fighter.
The King’s Inquisitor could be any class with proficiency in investigation and insight.
The church Inquisitor is a conquest Paladin or similar to as above any class with proficiency in insight and intimidation
The Hashshashin is probably a fighter rogue, but still should have lock picking skills
The original 5e UA scout was a fighter and the scout you speak of is a fighter with proficiency in survival and nature.
The names of the sub classes are just names that try to fulfill some fantasy troupes. In reality a swashbuckler could be a fighter sub class as well, and the assassin subclass could be a fighter or wizard or bard.
Noble courtier who are Inquisitives/Masterminds absolutely would still be familiar with Thieve's Cant and criminal organizations, how else are they going to source or identify poisons used to assassinate the king, or have a political opponent quietly disappear, or have those fake documents planted to throw suspicion off of themselves, or steal the real documents proving someone what embezzling from the royal coffers?
Yeah, the "Criminal" and "Urchin" backgrounds in OneD&D (playtest document #1) make the built-in features of the Rogue fairly redundant.
Yeah, I agree that a (structred) proficiency substitution is probably better than swapping it out with a Feat.
Reasoning: All the way back to 1e, many players used the Thief class not as a criminal, but as a "skilled normal" who was neither focused on martial prowess like a Fighter, but also not focused on spell casting like a Cleric or Magic-User. When 3e came out, there was a statement in the class description that the newly renamed class (now Rogue) was not always criminal in nature, giving several alternative ideas. 5e makes a similar statement about the Rogue class. However, there is still a "vestigial tail" of the old Thief class that remains: proficiency with Thieves' Tools and knowledge of Thieves Cant. These two proficiencies don't match many of the possible archetypes and builds that fit within the Rogue class. OneD&D presents an opportunity to finally remove this vestigial tail, and even offers comparable mechanics in other classes that allow a class progression to begin tailoring itself before the Subclass is even picked: the Cleric's Divine Order, and the Warlock's Pact Boon. By using a comparable mechanic to replace "Thieves' Tools" and "Thieves Cant", more Rogue archetypes can be better implemented without removing the legacy Rogue builds.
Rogue:
1st-Level Feature: "Vocational Training": Pick two proficiencies. Each can be any Language, Musical Instrument, Skill, Tool, or Weapon.
Remove Burglar's Pack and Thieves Tools from the class starting equipment, replace with an appropriate Pack and any Tools, Instruments, or Weapons chosen as part of Vocational Training.
Examples listed as: subclass (trope): Background, and Vocational Training picks:
Musket, Nature, Pistol, Survival, Vehicles (Water), Vehicles (Space)
The following Backgrounds are partially updated from 5e, to work with the above Rogue builds.
Background: Merchant
Ability Scores: Charisma +2, Wisdom +1
Skill Proficiencies: Animal Handling, Persuasion
Tool Proficiency: Vehicles (Land)
Language: (pick one of your choice)
Feat: Linguist or Skilled
Equipment: Merchant's Scale, Fine Clothes, Belt Pouch, Mule and Cart, Rations (2 days), Feed (2 days), 15 gp
You are a recent or former merchant, traveling from city to city in caravans (perhaps your own caravan, or part of a larger caravan). For whatever reason, you have left that life of sales and haggling behind you, but you may still know other merchants from your time among them.
Background: Spy
Ability Scores: Charisma +2, Wisdom +1
Skill Proficiencies: Deception, Stealth
Tool Proficiency: Forgery Kit
Language: (pick one of your choice)
Feat: Actor or Linguist or Lucky or Skilled
Equipment: Forgery Kit, a set of papers and a set of clothes related to two different identities, 15 gp
You have made a career of infiltrating organizations to report about them back to a sponsor or mentor. You have recently either retired from that life, lost your sponsor/mentor in some fashion, or perhaps had your cover burned by someone (possibly your sponsor). Now you need to find a new line of work.
Background: Traveler
Ability Scores: Wisdom +2, Constitution +1
Skill Proficiencies: Animal Handling, Survival
Tool Proficiency: Cartographer's Tools
Language: (pick one of your choice)
Feat: Linguist or Skilled
Equipment: Bedroll, Rations (2 days), Backpack, Traveler's Clothes, Lamp, Oil (3 flasks), Book (travel notes and diary), pen, ink, Cartographer's Tools, 10 gp
(your background is similar to that of the 5e Far Traveler, or a less religious version of the Pilgrim, a non-caster version of the Guide, and possibly the child of a Merchant, but not a Merchant themself)
Background: Courtier
Ability Scores: Charisma +2, Wisdom +1
Skill Proficiencies: Insight, Persuasion
Tool Proficiency: (pick one Musical Instrument)
Language: (pick one of your choice)
Feat: Linguist or Musician or Skilled
Equipment: Fine Clothes, Perfume, family broach or signet, 20 gp
(Use the same description from 5e)
Other Rogue changes/additions (separate from my initial statement):
Rogue Subclass: Soulknife
Rogue Subclass: Eremite Vagabond
You are a traveler of the world, usually on the outskirts of any society as you travel. Being an outsider causes some to call you a vagrant or nomad, others to describe you as a migrant or feral wild mystic. You have a wanderlust that keeps you from putting down permanent settlement roots, but this type of living also keeps you on the move.
Rogue Subclass: Preacher
Whether you're are a traveling missionary, a tentpole revivalist, or a priest of a local parish, or maybe even a swindling false prophet, you are the semi-miraculous practitioner of a religious or spiritual tradition. Your skills are more about swaying the masses than grand miracles.
Except when I build a rogue, Idon't use those backgrounds, so they aren't redundant. I should be pigeonholed into a specific background to fit my class, FFS.
Nothing about what I've said prevents you from doing the exact same thing you already did. I'm not preventing anyone from doing the same thing a Rogue currently does. You're mention being pigeonholed, but preventing being pigeonholed into a criminal role is exactly what I'm doing. You still want the 1st level Rogue to have Thieves Cant and Thieve's Tools via their class and not background? You can still do that. You want to be a "skilled normal" Rogue who doesn't have any kind of criminal association? You can't really do that with the 5e and OneD&D-as-is Rogue because they have a built-in assumption in the mechanics that you have some form of criminal skills/association, even though the fluff/lore says otherwise .. and even if doesn't make sense at all to your skilled-normal concept. (for which I have given a ton of examples).
With my method, you can take whatever background you want, and use the 1st level Vocational Training to take Thieves Cant and Thieves Tools. _exactly_ the same result as without my change.
So a starting Rogue gets 4 skill proficiencies, 2 skill expertise, a tool proficiency (which can be Thieves' Tools), and a language (which can be Thieves' Cant).
However we don't really have to worry about how the character allocates their +1s and/or +2, the equipment that they buy. They have 50gp from their background, and 110gp as a Rogue.
With 160gp you should be able to buy everything you think you'll need on startup, including an Arcane Focus if you intend to play an Arcane Trickster.
I’d prefer the Rogue to be the non-magical expertise (but for the Arcane Trickster) one, instead so stereotyped to thieving, then allow players to mold the character. But I doubt WotC to make a so deep change to the class.
As a general principle, I heartily agree… but I also see the value of 1/3 caster subclasses for the Fighter, Monk, and Rogue. It’s especially useful in games that might not be using the multiclass rules.
My quibble there is: I don’t like to see only one of the three caster types represented. I want to see one of those subclasses for each type (arcane, divine, primal) or a subclass that picks. The EK could easily be done as a “pick one”, and slightly different spell restrictions based on what you picked. I don’t think that works for the AT, because there’s a lot of theme built in to the subclass, where the EK doesn’t really.
As for whether or not WOTC would do it: thematically they did, when 3e was released. And they’ve basically made the same type of 1st level customization for the Cleric and Warlock… so I don’t think it’s a big stretch/ask to see it done for the Rogue.
I was trying to be a little more flexible than "a tool proficiency and a language pick", but even that is preferable to a hard-coded tool and hard-coded language.
Thieve’s cant is much like Druidic is meant to be a special language that no one would teach you unless you are part of that lifestyle. I really don’t see a point in arguing over this, so it’s easier to give in especially when what they are asking for won’t bother anyone else’s play or limit anyone’s play style. The only problem I see is party expectations not being met. A rogue who can’t pick locks might make some party members frown, but that’s their problem.
Proficiencies should read, “Tool: Thieve’s tools or any tool of choice.”
Starting equipment should read, “Burglar’s pack or any pack of choice” and “Thieve’s tools or any proficient tool.”
The fist level feature has to be changed to:
1ST LEVEL: Rogue’s Tongue
You picked up various languages in the communities where you plied your roguish talents. You know Thieves’ Cant or a Standard Language, and one other language of your choice, which you choose from the Standard Languages or Rare Languages tables.