HEAVY A Heavy weapon is unwieldy compared to other weapons. You have Disadvantage on your attack rolls with a Heavy weapon if it’s a melee weapon and your Strength score isn’t at least 13 and if it’s a ranged weapon and your Dexterity score isn’t at least 13.
Pact Wpn Invocation has this text below
Whenever you attack with the bonded weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier for the attack and damage rolls, instead of using Strength or Dexterity, and you can cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or its normal damage type
I think they will need to clarify if the pact invocation will allow you to use a Heavy wpn unless you have the STR covered. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but RAW I don't think the pact does.
On the one hand, I think I can live with Bladelocks not being able to wield a polearm or "great" weapon without at least a 13 Strength, but it does seem an odd change. I think I prefer the original Heavy property based on size intead of Str/Dex. Having a low attack ability score for a Heavy weapon is already a penalty of sorts, and I don't care how strong that Gnome is he's gonna have a tough time fighting with a Halberd :)
I think it is probably fine, just put some strength in and I am here for any way to make strength less of a dump stat. Small creatures using heavy weapons is funny to me and I want that to stay.
13 in strength score is a small price to pay for dealing 3d6+Cha necrotic/psychic/radiant damage three times per turn with Graze/Topple by level 11, if you ask me.
I'm pretty sure the 13 STR requirement was added at least in part specifically to make Bladelock dips a little less SAD. Besides, you can still use a longsword and suffer a small damage decrease if you want to totally dump Strength. I think that's fair.
I'm pretty sure the 13 STR requirement was added at least in part specifically to make Bladelock dips a little less SAD. Besides, you can still use a longsword and suffer a small damage decrease if you want to totally dump Strength. I think that's fair.
I think it was largely done so that the halfling barbarian and the like would be more viable. They don't want small races to be "punished" for using heavy weapons.
I'm pretty sure the 13 STR requirement was added at least in part specifically to make Bladelock dips a little less SAD. Besides, you can still use a longsword and suffer a small damage decrease if you want to totally dump Strength. I think that's fair.
I think it was largely done so that the halfling barbarian and the like would be more viable. They don't want small races to be "punished" for using heavy weapons.
I think that's why too. Also to clarify my original post, I was asking about clarification of the rules. I should have maybe added I was fine with the Heavy condition. I think its a fair mechanic.
I'm pretty sure the 13 STR requirement was added at least in part specifically to make Bladelock dips a little less SAD. Besides, you can still use a longsword and suffer a small damage decrease if you want to totally dump Strength. I think that's fair.
I think it was largely done so that the halfling barbarian and the like would be more viable. They don't want small races to be "punished" for using heavy weapons.
Agreed, I also think small races was the primary motivator for this change, especially considering a lot of races allow you to chose your size. Making heavy weapon swinging Warlocks less SAD is a nice side effect of this.
13 in strength score is a small price to pay for dealing 3d6+Cha necrotic/psychic/radiant damage three times per turn with Graze/Topple by level 11, if you ask me.
I think it is very Elric of Melinbone to allow the weak guy to use the weapon that ordinarily he couldn't weild, without the weapon feeding him enough strength to use it. Therefor, pact weapon, use CHA. ;)
Honestly if I ever play a bladelock, I'll probably be either str or dex based depending on my weapon choice so I get full benefit from my feats. If I am bashing things with a weapon, I don't need cha.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Honestly if I ever play a bladelock, I'll probably be either str or dex based depending on my weapon choice so I get full benefit from my feats. If I am bashing things with a weapon, I don't need cha.
Does it give you the option to do so? I was under the impression that accepting the Pact of the Blade forced you to use your Charisma for damage. Is using your natural Strength or Dexterity instead an option?
Honestly if I ever play a bladelock, I'll probably be either str or dex based depending on my weapon choice so I get full benefit from my feats. If I am bashing things with a weapon, I don't need cha.
Does it give you the option to do so? I was under the impression that accepting the Pact of the Blade forced you to use your Charisma for damage. Is using your natural Strength or Dexterity instead an option?
Honestly if I ever play a bladelock, I'll probably be either str or dex based depending on my weapon choice so I get full benefit from my feats. If I am bashing things with a weapon, I don't need cha.
Does it give you the option to do so? I was under the impression that accepting the Pact of the Blade forced you to use your Charisma for damage. Is using your natural Strength or Dexterity instead an option?
Yes, the wording is you "may" use your charisma.
My Archfey warlock has the invocation Pact of the Blade and I have always understood that the magic of this Pact bypasses BOTH the Heavy property of a Martial Melee weapon AND the fact that warlocks are normally proficient ONLY with Simple weapons like a dagger or a quarter staff.
If you do not agree, then simply rule that Pact of the Blade (in your campaign) is restricted only to people with a Strength of 13 or better. Furthermore, designate warlocks as solely spellcasters who are NOT capable of functioning as fighter types on a temporary basis. In fact, simply remove the invocations of Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Devouring Blade and Life Drinker, along with the cantrip of Green Flame Blade.
Honestly if I ever play a bladelock, I'll probably be either str or dex based depending on my weapon choice so I get full benefit from my feats. If I am bashing things with a weapon, I don't need cha.
Does it give you the option to do so? I was under the impression that accepting the Pact of the Blade forced you to use your Charisma for damage. Is using your natural Strength or Dexterity instead an option?
Yes, the wording is you "may" use your charisma.
My Archfey warlock has the invocation Pact of the Blade and I have always understood that the magic of this Pact bypasses BOTH the Heavy property of a Martial Melee weapon AND the fact that warlocks are normally proficient ONLY with Simple weapons like a dagger or a quarter staff.
If you do not agree, then simply rule that Pact of the Blade (in your campaign) is restricted only to people with a Strength of 13 or better. Furthermore, designate warlocks as solely spellcasters who are NOT capable of functioning as fighter types on a temporary basis. In fact, simply remove the invocations of Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Devouring Blade and Life Drinker, along with the cantrip of Green Flame Blade.
The wording of pact of the blade specifically states "you can conjure a pact weapon in your hand—a Simple or Martial Melee weapon of your choice with which you bond—or create a bond with a magic weapon you touch; you can’t bond with a magic weapon if someone else is attuned to it or another Warlock is bonded with it. Until the bond ends, you have proficiency with the weapon, and you can use it as a Spellcasting Focus. Whenever you attack with the bonded weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity"
It does not say you can ignore the weapon properties on a weapon, whether that is the loading property or the heavy property. You gain proficiency so it works for gaining proficiency in weapons you wouldn't normally have like martial and heavy weapons. You can't use your charisma for the heavy property because that isn't what the the ability states you can overwrite, it says you use it over strength or dex for attack and damage rolls.
The heavy property states.
"Heavy
You have Disadvantage on attack rolls with a Heavy weapon if it’s a Melee weapon and your Strength score isn’t at least 13 or if it’s a Ranged weapon and your Dexterity score isn’t at least 13."
It doesn't actually care what you make that attack roll with. Now if your DM wants to house rule it different of course play that way your table is your table. But RAW you need a 13 strength for heavy melee weapons to not roll at disadvantage whether you make that roll with strength, dex, charisma, int or wisdom.
Honestly if I ever play a bladelock, I'll probably be either str or dex based depending on my weapon choice so I get full benefit from my feats. If I am bashing things with a weapon, I don't need cha.
Does it give you the option to do so? I was under the impression that accepting the Pact of the Blade forced you to use your Charisma for damage. Is using your natural Strength or Dexterity instead an option?
Yes, the wording is you "may" use your charisma.
My Archfey warlock has the invocation Pact of the Blade and I have always understood that the magic of this Pact bypasses BOTH the Heavy property of a Martial Melee weapon AND the fact that warlocks are normally proficient ONLY with Simple weapons like a dagger or a quarter staff.
If you do not agree, then simply rule that Pact of the Blade (in your campaign) is restricted only to people with a Strength of 13 or better. Furthermore, designate warlocks as solely spellcasters who are NOT capable of functioning as fighter types on a temporary basis. In fact, simply remove the invocations of Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Devouring Blade and Life Drinker, along with the cantrip of Green Flame Blade.
The wording of pact of the blade specifically states "you can conjure a pact weapon in your hand—a Simple or Martial Melee weapon of your choice with which you bond—or create a bond with a magic weapon you touch; you can’t bond with a magic weapon if someone else is attuned to it or another Warlock is bonded with it. Until the bond ends, you have proficiency with the weapon, and you can use it as a Spellcasting Focus. Whenever you attack with the bonded weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity"
It does not say you can ignore the weapon properties on a weapon, whether that is the loading property or the heavy property. You gain proficiency so it works for gaining proficiency in weapons you wouldn't normally have like martial and heavy weapons. You can't use your charisma for the heavy property because that isn't what the the ability states you can overwrite, it says you use it over strength or dex for attack and damage rolls.
The heavy property states.
"Heavy
You have Disadvantage on attack rolls with a Heavy weapon if it’s a Melee weapon and your Strength score isn’t at least 13 or if it’s a Ranged weapon and your Dexterity score isn’t at least 13."
It doesn't actually care what you make that attack roll with. Now if your DM wants to house rule it different of course play that way your table is your table. But RAW you need a 13 strength for heavy melee weapons to not roll at disadvantage whether you make that roll with strength, dex, charisma, int or wisdom.
Fine!!!
I will restrict myself to only using weapons that do one(1) point of damage. And, my gaming group will suffer a Total Party Kill as a result.
Honestly if I ever play a bladelock, I'll probably be either str or dex based depending on my weapon choice so I get full benefit from my feats. If I am bashing things with a weapon, I don't need cha.
Does it give you the option to do so? I was under the impression that accepting the Pact of the Blade forced you to use your Charisma for damage. Is using your natural Strength or Dexterity instead an option?
Yes, the wording is you "may" use your charisma.
My Archfey warlock has the invocation Pact of the Blade and I have always understood that the magic of this Pact bypasses BOTH the Heavy property of a Martial Melee weapon AND the fact that warlocks are normally proficient ONLY with Simple weapons like a dagger or a quarter staff.
If you do not agree, then simply rule that Pact of the Blade (in your campaign) is restricted only to people with a Strength of 13 or better. Furthermore, designate warlocks as solely spellcasters who are NOT capable of functioning as fighter types on a temporary basis. In fact, simply remove the invocations of Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Devouring Blade and Life Drinker, along with the cantrip of Green Flame Blade.
The wording of pact of the blade specifically states "you can conjure a pact weapon in your hand—a Simple or Martial Melee weapon of your choice with which you bond—or create a bond with a magic weapon you touch; you can’t bond with a magic weapon if someone else is attuned to it or another Warlock is bonded with it. Until the bond ends, you have proficiency with the weapon, and you can use it as a Spellcasting Focus. Whenever you attack with the bonded weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity"
It does not say you can ignore the weapon properties on a weapon, whether that is the loading property or the heavy property. You gain proficiency so it works for gaining proficiency in weapons you wouldn't normally have like martial and heavy weapons. You can't use your charisma for the heavy property because that isn't what the the ability states you can overwrite, it says you use it over strength or dex for attack and damage rolls.
The heavy property states.
"Heavy
You have Disadvantage on attack rolls with a Heavy weapon if it’s a Melee weapon and your Strength score isn’t at least 13 or if it’s a Ranged weapon and your Dexterity score isn’t at least 13."
It doesn't actually care what you make that attack roll with. Now if your DM wants to house rule it different of course play that way your table is your table. But RAW you need a 13 strength for heavy melee weapons to not roll at disadvantage whether you make that roll with strength, dex, charisma, int or wisdom.
Fine!!!
I will restrict myself to only using weapons that do one(1) point of damage. And, my gaming group will suffer a Total Party Kill as a result.
You can use a martial weapon that isn't heavy. They are still typically better than a non martial weapon doing a d10 with 2 hands, the difference between a d10 and a d12 is not significant. Using one with the heavy property just means you will be at a disadvantage, which, depending on the situation, isn't the end of the world. This was an advice thread mate where we were answering the question for RAW. But if your table doesn't want to do that, then don't. Change the rules as you need to for your table. This isn't a competitive game, its a have fun game so have fun.
If you are wondering why the rule was written this way we can only speculate because we aren't the devs. My guess is because the old rules was that small races attacked with disadvantage when wielding a heavy weapon so they wanted more races to be viable in a "Strength build" they wanted gnome barbarians to be a fun thing, but they still needed a detriment that you had to build around for heavy weapons. They made it strength for melee and dex for ranged because more than 90% of all characters that were going to use these weapons would be strength based or dex based anyway. This detriment really only affected the multi-classing builds or caster builds who find ways to get martial weapon training. It basically tells the caster with 8 strength that just because you have proficiency in a weapon doesn't mean we want you to be able to swing the big heavy axe as if you were a barbarian without some trade off. In the case of warlock for 13 strength, if I am not multi-classing, I dump, int, wisdom and consider dumping dex to like 10 or 12 because that leather armor isn't going to do you any favors anyway you are going to get hit so better con to hold concentration and take the hit better combined with fiendish vigor and other temp hp methods is just better at keeping my warlock alive. If you are multi-classing probably the same thing because I am multi-classing for heavy armor and need a 13 to 15 strength anyway to wear the armor without a speed penalty.
How about using a Trident, then? That is a Martial Melee weapon that is not classified as a "HEAVY" weapon. On the other hand, should my warlock character simply drop his little dagger and then scurry behind a fighter type when a low level kobold draws near?
How about using a Trident, then? That is a Martial Melee weapon that is not classified as a "HEAVY" weapon. On the other hand, should my warlock character simply drop his little dagger and then scurry behind a fighter type when a low level kobold draws near?
Ya pact of the blade allows the use of a trident without any penalty and using your charisma modifier without any issues. Pact of the blade gives proficiency with the weapon it just doesn't ignore weapon properties. the trident even has the thrown and versatile property so you can use a d10 with 2 hands and if you want you can throw it and re-summon it as a bonus action.
Weapons with solid properties that a warlock may consider if they are pact of the blade but don't want to get 13 strength heavy weapons, battle axe, long sword, war hammer, war pick, all with versatile d10 Trident with versatile d10 and thrown, whip with reach, .
If they are going to have enough dex to multi-class fighter for medium armor and a shield then weapon masteries become something to consider with sap, topple, push and vex all becoming decent options, especially with the versatile weapons listed above allowing for a "sword and board" style play and the ability to swap masteries with a bonus action by changing what type of main hand weapon you have. You also don't have to worry about the hands being free because pact of the blade also allows you to use your weapon as a spell casting focus so you can cast material spells while your hands are full.
How about using a Trident, then? That is a Martial Melee weapon that is not classified as a "HEAVY" weapon. On the other hand, should my warlock character simply drop his little dagger and then scurry behind a fighter type when a low level kobold draws near?
Ya pact of the blade allows the use of a trident without any penalty and using your charisma modifier without any issues. Pact of the blade gives proficiency with the weapon it just doesn't ignore weapon properties. the trident even has the thrown and versatile property so you can use a d10 with 2 hands and if you want you can throw it and re-summon it as a bonus action.
Weapons with solid properties that a warlock may consider if they are pact of the blade but don't want to get 13 strength heavy weapons, battle axe, long sword, war hammer, war pick, all with versatile d10 Trident with versatile d10 and thrown, whip with reach, .
If they are going to have enough dex to multi-class fighter for medium armor and a shield then weapon masteries become something to consider with sap, topple, push and vex all becoming decent options, especially with the versatile weapons listed above allowing for a "sword and board" style play and the ability to swap masteries with a bonus action by changing what type of main hand weapon you have. You also don't have to worry about the hands being free because pact of the blade also allows you to use your weapon as a spell casting focus so you can cast material spells while your hands are full.
My warlock character does not have the minimum Strength for Medium style armor, instead he uses the Eldritch Invocation 'Armor of Shadows' which lets him cast Mage Armor on himself. As for multi-classing with a fighter type, that is not in the cards.
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HEAVY A Heavy weapon is unwieldy compared to other weapons. You have Disadvantage on your attack rolls with a Heavy weapon if it’s a melee weapon and your Strength score isn’t at least 13 and if it’s a ranged weapon and your Dexterity score isn’t at least 13.
Pact Wpn Invocation has this text below
Whenever you attack with the bonded weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier for the attack and damage rolls, instead of using Strength or Dexterity, and you can cause the weapon to deal Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage or its normal damage type
I think they will need to clarify if the pact invocation will allow you to use a Heavy wpn unless you have the STR covered. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but RAW I don't think the pact does.
Pact of Blade does not bypass the requirement of 13 in order to use heavy weapons without disadvantage.
On the one hand, I think I can live with Bladelocks not being able to wield a polearm or "great" weapon without at least a 13 Strength, but it does seem an odd change. I think I prefer the original Heavy property based on size intead of Str/Dex. Having a low attack ability score for a Heavy weapon is already a penalty of sorts, and I don't care how strong that Gnome is he's gonna have a tough time fighting with a Halberd :)
I think it is probably fine, just put some strength in and I am here for any way to make strength less of a dump stat. Small creatures using heavy weapons is funny to me and I want that to stay.
13 in strength score is a small price to pay for dealing 3d6+Cha necrotic/psychic/radiant damage three times per turn with Graze/Topple by level 11, if you ask me.
I'm pretty sure the 13 STR requirement was added at least in part specifically to make Bladelock dips a little less SAD. Besides, you can still use a longsword and suffer a small damage decrease if you want to totally dump Strength. I think that's fair.
I think it was largely done so that the halfling barbarian and the like would be more viable. They don't want small races to be "punished" for using heavy weapons.
I think that's why too. Also to clarify my original post, I was asking about clarification of the rules. I should have maybe added I was fine with the Heavy condition. I think its a fair mechanic.
Agreed, I also think small races was the primary motivator for this change, especially considering a lot of races allow you to chose your size. Making heavy weapon swinging Warlocks less SAD is a nice side effect of this.
Couldn't have said that better.
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I think it is very Elric of Melinbone to allow the weak guy to use the weapon that ordinarily he couldn't weild, without the weapon feeding him enough strength to use it. Therefor, pact weapon, use CHA. ;)
Honestly if I ever play a bladelock, I'll probably be either str or dex based depending on my weapon choice so I get full benefit from my feats. If I am bashing things with a weapon, I don't need cha.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Does it give you the option to do so? I was under the impression that accepting the Pact of the Blade forced you to use your Charisma for damage. Is using your natural Strength or Dexterity instead an option?
Yes, the wording is you "may" use your charisma.
My Archfey warlock has the invocation Pact of the Blade and I have always understood that the magic of this Pact bypasses BOTH the Heavy property of a Martial Melee weapon AND the fact that warlocks are normally proficient ONLY with Simple weapons like a dagger or a quarter staff.
If you do not agree, then simply rule that Pact of the Blade (in your campaign) is restricted only to people with a Strength of 13 or better. Furthermore, designate warlocks as solely spellcasters who are NOT capable of functioning as fighter types on a temporary basis. In fact, simply remove the invocations of Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Devouring Blade and Life Drinker, along with the cantrip of Green Flame Blade.
The wording of pact of the blade specifically states "you can conjure a pact weapon in your hand—a Simple or Martial Melee weapon of your choice with which you bond—or create a bond with a magic weapon you touch; you can’t bond with a magic weapon if someone else is attuned to it or another Warlock is bonded with it. Until the bond ends, you have proficiency with the weapon, and you can use it as a Spellcasting Focus. Whenever you attack with the bonded weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity"
It does not say you can ignore the weapon properties on a weapon, whether that is the loading property or the heavy property. You gain proficiency so it works for gaining proficiency in weapons you wouldn't normally have like martial and heavy weapons. You can't use your charisma for the heavy property because that isn't what the the ability states you can overwrite, it says you use it over strength or dex for attack and damage rolls.
The heavy property states.
"Heavy
You have Disadvantage on attack rolls with a Heavy weapon if it’s a Melee weapon and your Strength score isn’t at least 13 or if it’s a Ranged weapon and your Dexterity score isn’t at least 13."
It doesn't actually care what you make that attack roll with. Now if your DM wants to house rule it different of course play that way your table is your table. But RAW you need a 13 strength for heavy melee weapons to not roll at disadvantage whether you make that roll with strength, dex, charisma, int or wisdom.
Fine!!!
I will restrict myself to only using weapons that do one(1) point of damage. And, my gaming group will suffer a Total Party Kill as a result.
You can use a martial weapon that isn't heavy. They are still typically better than a non martial weapon doing a d10 with 2 hands, the difference between a d10 and a d12 is not significant. Using one with the heavy property just means you will be at a disadvantage, which, depending on the situation, isn't the end of the world. This was an advice thread mate where we were answering the question for RAW. But if your table doesn't want to do that, then don't. Change the rules as you need to for your table. This isn't a competitive game, its a have fun game so have fun.
If you are wondering why the rule was written this way we can only speculate because we aren't the devs. My guess is because the old rules was that small races attacked with disadvantage when wielding a heavy weapon so they wanted more races to be viable in a "Strength build" they wanted gnome barbarians to be a fun thing, but they still needed a detriment that you had to build around for heavy weapons. They made it strength for melee and dex for ranged because more than 90% of all characters that were going to use these weapons would be strength based or dex based anyway. This detriment really only affected the multi-classing builds or caster builds who find ways to get martial weapon training. It basically tells the caster with 8 strength that just because you have proficiency in a weapon doesn't mean we want you to be able to swing the big heavy axe as if you were a barbarian without some trade off. In the case of warlock for 13 strength, if I am not multi-classing, I dump, int, wisdom and consider dumping dex to like 10 or 12 because that leather armor isn't going to do you any favors anyway you are going to get hit so better con to hold concentration and take the hit better combined with fiendish vigor and other temp hp methods is just better at keeping my warlock alive. If you are multi-classing probably the same thing because I am multi-classing for heavy armor and need a 13 to 15 strength anyway to wear the armor without a speed penalty.
How about using a Trident, then? That is a Martial Melee weapon that is not classified as a "HEAVY" weapon. On the other hand, should my warlock character simply drop his little dagger and then scurry behind a fighter type when a low level kobold draws near?
Ya pact of the blade allows the use of a trident without any penalty and using your charisma modifier without any issues. Pact of the blade gives proficiency with the weapon it just doesn't ignore weapon properties. the trident even has the thrown and versatile property so you can use a d10 with 2 hands and if you want you can throw it and re-summon it as a bonus action.
Weapons with solid properties that a warlock may consider if they are pact of the blade but don't want to get 13 strength heavy weapons, battle axe, long sword, war hammer, war pick, all with versatile d10 Trident with versatile d10 and thrown, whip with reach, .
If they are going to have enough dex to multi-class fighter for medium armor and a shield then weapon masteries become something to consider with sap, topple, push and vex all becoming decent options, especially with the versatile weapons listed above allowing for a "sword and board" style play and the ability to swap masteries with a bonus action by changing what type of main hand weapon you have. You also don't have to worry about the hands being free because pact of the blade also allows you to use your weapon as a spell casting focus so you can cast material spells while your hands are full.
My warlock character does not have the minimum Strength for Medium style armor, instead he uses the Eldritch Invocation 'Armor of Shadows' which lets him cast Mage Armor on himself. As for multi-classing with a fighter type, that is not in the cards.