I'm trying to wrap my head around warlocks. I've never played one or DM'ed one before. There is a specific build that I'm interested in, but I'm not sure that I've got all of the details right.
I've been trying to create a two-weapon fighting build that I actually like. I know it isn't that difficult, but, apparently, I am difficult to please. DnD does not support my obsession with rapier and blocking dagger. I don't know why. It confounds me endlessly and causes me no end of personal consternation. So, here are my thoughts on building a two-weapon using warlock:
Pact of Blades: It gives the character a magic weapon that they are proficient with. That's good because warlocks only have access to simple weapons and a rapier is a martial weapon. So, check. We've got a rapier and a dagger. Bonus, a magic rapier.
Hexblade: Now the character can use their CHA, DEX, or STR modifier with attacks and damage with a weapon that can be touched and are proficient with, which the Pact Blade gives you a magic rapier that you are proficient with. In addition, the feature is explicitly extended to every Pact of Blades weapon you can conjure regardless of type.
Shadowblade: For one minute, the character has a shadow rapier (2d8 psychic damage) that has the light, finesse, and throw property.
Duel Wielding: Your one-minute shadow rapier can now be wielded in one hand because it has the light property, and now a dagger can be used in the off-hand for an attack sans damage modifier.
I think I have finally found a two-weapon fighting build that can legitimately use a rapier and blocking dagger. Now, if only, I could get a point of AC out of the blocking dagger. it seems to me that I've seen something that will allow that, but I don't remember.
What do y'all think? Have i finally figured it out? Is there anything else I can do in this build? Any multiclass, feat, eldritch invocation, spell, subclass, or other character or creature feature that can be used?
The 2014 version of Dual Wielder feat gave you a +1 AC Bonus while wielding separate melee weapons in each hand. That is probably the AC bonus you were thinking of.
As far as your build idea, I am a little confused as to your plan here. Are you planning on wielding an actual magical rapier, or just the conjured weapon from Shadow Blade? If you plan to use an actual rapier, you won't be able to do anything with the dagger in your off-hand because the rapier will not have the Light property. If you are planning on always having Shadow Blade running, this combo would allow you to use all the benefits of dual-wielding since the conjured weapon has the Light property (calling it a rapier is just flavoring).
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that you will not be able to benefit from Thirsting Blade and Devouring Blade with the conjured Shadow Blade since it is not a pact weapon. At best, you would only be able to make a single attack with the conjured weapon from Shadow Blade, an attack from your dagger thanks to the Nick mastery, and then one more attack with your Shadow Blade as a bonus action granted by dual-wielder. This would still be pretty potent, since the two attacks with the Shadow Blade would be dealing 5d8 per hit once you are at level 9 (using a 5th level pact magic slot).
Thank you Sequilonis! That helps clarify a few things. I always need to think out loud and work my way through the details.
I can see now, though, that I've bollocksed things up quite a bit.
Pact Blade allows you to conjure and with a simple or melee weapon and bond with it. You have proficiency with the weapon. It also allows you to bond with a magic weapon, which you can then conjure. The bonding with the weapon allows you to use your CHA modifier rather than your STR or DEX, and you can change the type of damage to necrotic, psychic, or radiant.
Hexblade allows you to touch a weapon you are proficient with (pact blade gives you proficiency with any weapon you've bonded with) as long as it is not two-handed. You can replace the modifiers of the weapon with CHA rather than DEX or STR (like pact blade). The benefits are explicitly extended to any pact blade weapon, but what benefits does hex warrior give that pact blade didn't already give?
Shadowblade gives you a light, finesse, thrown magic weapon that deals 2d8 psychic damage for one minute.
Pact blade allows the character to bond with a magic weapon, which the shadowblade is. So, once bonded, you can use your CHA modifier for your attack and damage rolls and can cause necrotic or radiant damage if you so choose.
Because it is your pact blade, you can then get an extra attack with thirsting blade with your shadowblade as long as it exists, which is only one minute.
Because you have thirsting blade and you've bonded with your shadowblade for your pact blade, you can use devouring blade to give yourself an extra extra attack.
Dual wielder allows you to use your bonus action to make an extra attack with a melee weapon in your off-hand as long as the primary weapon had the light property, which the shadowbalde does. The off-hand dual wielder attack is made on any turn in which you haven't used your bonus action to bond with the shadowblade.
So, turn 1, cast shadowblade and take your bonus action to bond with it.
Turn 2 (as long as there aren't ten turns in your melee, meaning one minute has ticked by), you can attack with your shadowblade, use your bonus action to attack twice more, and then use your dual wielder to attack using an off-hand single-handed melee weapon without a damage modifier. So, that is four attacks in one turn.
I'm constantly getting ADnD, 3.5, 4.0, 5e, and now 2024 rules mixed up. You never know what is going to come out of me when I'm excited and playing. I'm going to miss that dual wielder +1 AC rule. Why would you get rid of it when there is such strong historical pretext for it?
I'm constantly getting ADnD, 3.5, 4.0, 5e, and now 2024 rules mixed up. You never know what is going to come out of me when I'm excited and playing. I'm going to miss that dual wielder +1 AC rule. Why would you get rid of it when there is such strong historical pretext for it?
Likely because in 2024, Dual Wielder gets you a whole extra attack if you also have Nick weapon mastery.
Thank you Sequilonis! That helps clarify a few things. I always need to think out loud and work my way through the details.
I can see now, though, that I've bollocksed things up quite a bit.
Pact Blade allows you to conjure and with a simple or melee weapon and bond with it. You have proficiency with the weapon. It also allows you to bond with a magic weapon, which you can then conjure. The bonding with the weapon allows you to use your CHA modifier rather than your STR or DEX, and you can change the type of damage to necrotic, psychic, or radiant.
Hexblade allows you to touch a weapon you are proficient with (pact blade gives you proficiency with any weapon you've bonded with) as long as it is not two-handed. You can replace the modifiers of the weapon with CHA rather than DEX or STR (like pact blade). The benefits are explicitly extended to any pact blade weapon, but what benefits does hex warrior give that pact blade didn't already give?
Shadowblade gives you a light, finesse, thrown magic weapon that deals 2d8 psychic damage for one minute.
Pact blade allows the character to bond with a magic weapon, which the shadowblade is. So, once bonded, you can use your CHA modifier for your attack and damage rolls and can cause necrotic or radiant damage if you so choose.
Because it is your pact blade, you can then get an extra attack with thirsting blade with your shadowblade as long as it exists, which is only one minute.
Because you have thirsting blade and you've bonded with your shadowblade for your pact blade, you can use devouring blade to give yourself an extra extra attack.
Dual wielder allows you to use your bonus action to make an extra attack with a melee weapon in your off-hand as long as the primary weapon had the light property, which the shadowbalde does. The off-hand dual wielder attack is made on any turn in which you haven't used your bonus action to bond with the shadowblade.
So, turn 1, cast shadowblade and take your bonus action to bond with it.
Turn 2 (as long as there aren't ten turns in your melee, meaning one minute has ticked by), you can attack with your shadowblade, use your bonus action to attack twice more, and then use your dual wielder to attack using an off-hand single-handed melee weapon without a damage modifier. So, that is four attacks in one turn.
Does that seem right?
This doesn't work. Shadow Blade is a Bonus Action to Cast.
In addition, the Thirsting Blade invocation gives you an Extra Attack when you take the Attack action; it doesn't work on your Bonus action.
The thing is... Your Blade Pact Weapon and your Hex Weapon do not have to be the same weapon.
You are probably better off starting with a different Light weapon which is your Hexblade Weapon (and your Pact Weapon, if it's magical.). Assuming Level 12 Hexblade Warlock, and the Thirsting Blade and Devouring Blade invocations.
Turn One.
Bonus Action: Cast Shadow Blade
Action: Attack with Shadow Blade, using STR or DEX, or attack three times using CHA using the Devouring Blade invocation on your Pact/Hex Other Weapon.
Turn Two, if you haven't lost Concentration yet on Shadow Blade:
Bonus Action: Use Pact of the Blade Invocation to switch your Pact Weapon to the Shadow Blade.
Action: Attack Thrice with the Pact Weapon Shadow Blade using CHA
Turn Three Onwards, if you still haven't lost concentration, and combat is still happening:
Action: Attack Thrice with the Pact Weapon Shadow Blade using CHA
Bonus Action: Attack once with the Hex Weapon using CHA, because it's a Light Weapon. Do not add CHA modifier to damage.
All the Dual Wielder feat buys you in the above situation is that your Hex Weapon doesn't need to be a Light Weapon.
If you have the Dual Wielder feat, and you have access to the Weapon Mastery Feature (through multiclassing or the Weapon Master Feat), and your chosen Hex Weapon is a Light weapon with Nick Mastery, then you have the following option:
Alternate Turn Three Onwards, if you still haven't lost concentration, and combat is still happening:
Action:
Attack Thrice with the Pact Weapon Shadow Blade using CHA.
Attack Once using the Nick property on your Light Nick Hex Weapon using CHA. Do not add CHA modifier to damage. This attack triggers the requirements for Dual Wielder's Bonus Action Attack.
Bonus Action: Attack once with Pact Weapon Shadow Blade using CHA., thanks to Dual Wielder. Do not add CHA modifier to damage.
The biggest problem with the above is that you're using two turns to come fully online. Most combats don't last much longer than three turns, and if you lose Concentration on Shadow Blade, you have to start again from the beginning.
A better option might be to have one normal Light weapon you turn into your Hex Weapon and carry around, and manifest a Pact Weapon that you carry around, and use Hex as the damage enhancer.
Edit: Adjusted to add Devouring Blade effects; Didn't realize the initial build used that invocation.
Doh! You're right. Casting Shadowblade IS a bonus action. Whether you lost concentration on it or not, it only lasts a minute, meaning 10 turns in combat, making the whole thing a dubious enterprise.
The only thing Hex Warrior brings to Pact Blade is the ability to use two-handed weapons, which is pretty good if you can use your CHA modifiers on attack and damage roles.
Shadowblade just is overly complicating the beginning of combat to try and combining it with Pact Blade, which is frustrating and seemingly unnecessary. Would that make Shadowblade overpowered if you could use it with Devouring or Thirsting Blade? I don't know.
It still makes a nifty weapon to use with Dual Wielder since it has the light property and can be paired with a Pact Weapon.
Thank all y'all for helping me work through the various implications of the rules.
Having a dagger in the offhand (Main gauche style) and taking the Defensive Duelist feat allows a reaction parry to add Prof to AC (until start of your next turn vs melee in 2024).
Best setup I can see for a dual-wielding Hexblade Warlock would be to just have two light weapons, one with the Nick mastery, and make one your Hex weapon and one your Pact weapon. Both will use your charisma. Take 1 level of fighter for weapon masteries, and by level 12 (Fighter 1, Warlock 12) you will be able to make 5 attacks on your turn (3 from the Attack action, 1 from Nick mastery, 1 from Dual Wielder as a bonus action). Cast spirit shroud, use a shortsword and scimitar, and your damage per round (assuming everything hits) would be 5d6+10d8+25 or 83.5 on average. Pretty solid damage, and you could still drop an Eldritch Smite should your score a critical hit for an extra 12d8.
That sounds like a powerful build and the best maximization of attack actions. It seems like my original interest in shadow blade was more of a red herring. It's too bad, as far as flavor and cool go, it would've been great to be able to use it as your primary weapon. It seemed to fit all the necessary requirements, except that it is a BA and lasts one minute.
The biggest problem with the build after working out all of the dual wielding issues is the AC. There's really no way to get it over 17 without some type of magic like, so temporary HP becomes a premium. Also, the two magic pact spell slots become a bottle neck. You've got a long long list of powerful spells and only two to cast, three with magical cunning.
It seems a class built to frustrate the player or challenge you to find the best ways to use its strengths and minimize its weaknesses. It's been fun to delve into the options and consider everything that's available.
What is it specifically you're looking to build, I can see a lot of discussion around it and it's obviously a 2-weapon fighting build, but what is it you want in that 2 weapon fighting build that would make it the build that you are after? If it's the rapier+dagger combo specifically, unfortunately that just doesn't work as well in 2024 due to weapon masteries and rapier lacking the light property, it's hard to find a reason to not use the scimitar+shortsword pairing as they do significantly better than any other pairing unless there is resistances/vulnerabilities at play.
Personally, I think a solution to this wouldn't be too hard to homebrew. Like a dagger of parry, When you make an attack with the dagger of parry, any rapiers in your inventory count as having the light weapon property until the end of your current turn and you gain a +1 increase in AC while you are not wearing medium or heavy armour until the start of your next turn. So it is something that can be solved through homebrew but needs okaying from a DM, ultimately that is what homebrew exists for however, to customise the game more to tables preferences.
Also in regards to the question about why Dual Wielder doesn't give +1AC anymore, I think it's important to note that it is now a half-feat granting Dexterity (or Strength), most builds using 2 weapon fighting are going to be using Dexterity for AC. So if Dual Wielder is your first pick of a feat and you have a dexterity score of 17, you'd increase to 18 and move from a +3 to a +4 modifier and so technically speaking it can lead to an increase in AC. Also Dual Wielder is just way more powerful in 2024, but I do not believe that to be the reason, rather it's the potential increase to Dexterity.
Thank you for your very direct response. The first thing is that it is my own very personal pet peeve that DnD would not make the rapier and blocking dagger possible since it has such a strong historical basis. It just sticks in my craw. It defies my neurodivergent obsessive-compulsive brain, so one of my many diversions has been trying to figure a way to make it work without homebrewing it.That really is it.
Also, my first reading of pact of the blade, hexblade, and shadow blade gave me hope that a character could produce a light rapier and pair it with a dagger in two-weapon fighting.
The character had a DEX of 17, so the improvement from Dual Wielder didn't improve their AC, so there's that. But, it really is about the jumble of rules that exists in my mind from having played ADnD, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 5e, and now 2024. One of the things that this little exercise did for me was clarify much about the warlock class and the 2024 rules for me personally.
I really appreciate the help that has been provided to help clarify rules and think through how they apply, combine, and the possibilities of using them.
Thank you for your contribution. For example, just pointing out that by adding a point to DEX, you might get a point more of AC, was a connection wasn't something that I had put together explicitly in this instance. These things are all helpful.
Game On, Sibling! Jack
PS I absolutely hate the idea of two-weapon fighting with a scimitar and short sword. I could never bear it. The resistances and vulnerabilities, however, are all self-imposed and absolutely irrational.
Thank you for your very direct response. The first thing is that it is my own very personal pet peeve that DnD would not make the rapier and blocking dagger possible since it has such a strong historical basis. It just sticks in my craw. It defies my neurodivergent obsessive-compulsive brain, so one of my many diversions has been trying to figure a way to make it work without homebrewing it.That really is it.
I think it's a valid pet peeve since it is something that was historically done (rapier + parrying dagger, rapier + buckler and rapier + cloth), those should have all been options, I think these do not exist in 5E for the reason of simplicity, unfortunately.
Another option is the Defensive Duellist Feat, it isn't specifically for 2 weapon fighting but it does give parry as a reaction, so you can play it as you use the dagger for performing parry. This however doesn't fix the issues on the rapier end, the only non-homebrew idea I could come up with was using a Dance Sword (rapier), but that is a very rare magic item and would be overpowered... and still not be what you're after, instead you'd be using three weapons (dagger attack, nick attack, BA Dance Sword attack). It's that or stylise a shortsword as a "shortened Rapier", I guess.
I figure they shoulda made it one weapon: rapier AND dagger, rapier AND buckler. It's not like it is a simple game and other rules and situations aren't complicated and intricately designed. However, it is like you said, that is what the homebrew option is for. I suppose, I'll give up and homebrew up my rapier and dagger and refuse to play until the DM allows it or I'll just equip every NPC I use with it. Ha hA! That'll show 'em.
As long as you don't attack with the offhand weapon, you can have it in your hand. or you can reflavor a shield into a dagger. if you want to attack with it, then you'll need shortsword and dagger. Simply re-flavor the shortsword. You can't let yourself get too caught up on what title they give a weapon in game. It's not a 'rapier', it's a d8, finesse thrusting weapon and it looks however you want it to look. As long as you don't fiddle with the system math, you can flavor your weapons to look however you want them to look.
the rules as written were done they way they are to prevent dual wield from eclipsing sword and shield. And if you could gain a whole extra attack at the cost of only 1AC, it's worth it. It's the same reason why shield bashes don't do damage even though someone jamming the edge of a shield into your face is going to hurt, a lot.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yeah, I know about reflavoring. I have a gnome artificer whose armor is trench coat and fez.In this case it is an irrational obsession that won't be satisfied with reflavoring.
The problem is that it is a fundamental misunderstanding of what two-weapon fighting is. DnD has conceptualized it as two separate weapons held one in each hand. Each weapon making its own attack. Instead, they should be thinking of it as one weapon similar to great weapons. They take two hands to wield. So, does a rapier and parrying dagger. A greataxe does 1d12 damage, a greatsword, 2d6. Make the rapier and parrying dagger a two-handed weapon that does 1d10 damage and gives a point to AC or allows the parry as a bonus action giving a point to AC.
Once was a damaging shield bash was a thing. At one time bucklers were a thing.
The system already is complex and their are parts that are overpowered and parts underpowered. At some point in DnD's development, someone somewhere decided that rapier and dagger wasn't going to be a thing.
It is just a bone stuck in my craw. Trying to solve it is an interesting hobby for me.
you're talking about a weapon system. the problem is, your suggestion is strictly superior to other options, such as the longsword held two handed. Rapier and dagger absolutely is a thing. A defensive benefit from two weapons is not a thing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Howdy y'all!
I'm trying to wrap my head around warlocks. I've never played one or DM'ed one before. There is a specific build that I'm interested in, but I'm not sure that I've got all of the details right.
I've been trying to create a two-weapon fighting build that I actually like. I know it isn't that difficult, but, apparently, I am difficult to please. DnD does not support my obsession with rapier and blocking dagger. I don't know why. It confounds me endlessly and causes me no end of personal consternation. So, here are my thoughts on building a two-weapon using warlock:
Pact of Blades: It gives the character a magic weapon that they are proficient with. That's good because warlocks only have access to simple weapons and a rapier is a martial weapon. So, check. We've got a rapier and a dagger. Bonus, a magic rapier.
Hexblade: Now the character can use their CHA, DEX, or STR modifier with attacks and damage with a weapon that can be touched and are proficient with, which the Pact Blade gives you a magic rapier that you are proficient with. In addition, the feature is explicitly extended to every Pact of Blades weapon you can conjure regardless of type.
Shadowblade: For one minute, the character has a shadow rapier (2d8 psychic damage) that has the light, finesse, and throw property.
Duel Wielding: Your one-minute shadow rapier can now be wielded in one hand because it has the light property, and now a dagger can be used in the off-hand for an attack sans damage modifier.
I think I have finally found a two-weapon fighting build that can legitimately use a rapier and blocking dagger. Now, if only, I could get a point of AC out of the blocking dagger. it seems to me that I've seen something that will allow that, but I don't remember.
What do y'all think? Have i finally figured it out? Is there anything else I can do in this build? Any multiclass, feat, eldritch invocation, spell, subclass, or other character or creature feature that can be used?
Game On, Sibling!
Jack
If you're playing 2014 rules, which you appear to be doing, then the Dual Wielder fest gives you +1 AC.
Not sure it's worth a whole feat slot just for that, given your concept doesn't want to use heavier weapons, but that's where you get it.
The 2014 version of Dual Wielder feat gave you a +1 AC Bonus while wielding separate melee weapons in each hand. That is probably the AC bonus you were thinking of.
As far as your build idea, I am a little confused as to your plan here. Are you planning on wielding an actual magical rapier, or just the conjured weapon from Shadow Blade? If you plan to use an actual rapier, you won't be able to do anything with the dagger in your off-hand because the rapier will not have the Light property. If you are planning on always having Shadow Blade running, this combo would allow you to use all the benefits of dual-wielding since the conjured weapon has the Light property (calling it a rapier is just flavoring).
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that you will not be able to benefit from Thirsting Blade and Devouring Blade with the conjured Shadow Blade since it is not a pact weapon. At best, you would only be able to make a single attack with the conjured weapon from Shadow Blade, an attack from your dagger thanks to the Nick mastery, and then one more attack with your Shadow Blade as a bonus action granted by dual-wielder. This would still be pretty potent, since the two attacks with the Shadow Blade would be dealing 5d8 per hit once you are at level 9 (using a 5th level pact magic slot).
Thank you Sequilonis! That helps clarify a few things. I always need to think out loud and work my way through the details.
I can see now, though, that I've bollocksed things up quite a bit.
Pact Blade allows you to conjure and with a simple or melee weapon and bond with it. You have proficiency with the weapon. It also allows you to bond with a magic weapon, which you can then conjure. The bonding with the weapon allows you to use your CHA modifier rather than your STR or DEX, and you can change the type of damage to necrotic, psychic, or radiant.
Hexblade allows you to touch a weapon you are proficient with (pact blade gives you proficiency with any weapon you've bonded with) as long as it is not two-handed. You can replace the modifiers of the weapon with CHA rather than DEX or STR (like pact blade). The benefits are explicitly extended to any pact blade weapon, but what benefits does hex warrior give that pact blade didn't already give?
Shadowblade gives you a light, finesse, thrown magic weapon that deals 2d8 psychic damage for one minute.
Pact blade allows the character to bond with a magic weapon, which the shadowblade is. So, once bonded, you can use your CHA modifier for your attack and damage rolls and can cause necrotic or radiant damage if you so choose.
Because it is your pact blade, you can then get an extra attack with thirsting blade with your shadowblade as long as it exists, which is only one minute.
Because you have thirsting blade and you've bonded with your shadowblade for your pact blade, you can use devouring blade to give yourself an extra extra attack.
Dual wielder allows you to use your bonus action to make an extra attack with a melee weapon in your off-hand as long as the primary weapon had the light property, which the shadowbalde does. The off-hand dual wielder attack is made on any turn in which you haven't used your bonus action to bond with the shadowblade.
So, turn 1, cast shadowblade and take your bonus action to bond with it.
Turn 2 (as long as there aren't ten turns in your melee, meaning one minute has ticked by), you can attack with your shadowblade, use your bonus action to attack twice more, and then use your dual wielder to attack using an off-hand single-handed melee weapon without a damage modifier. So, that is four attacks in one turn.
Does that seem right?
Howdy jl8e!
I'm constantly getting ADnD, 3.5, 4.0, 5e, and now 2024 rules mixed up. You never know what is going to come out of me when I'm excited and playing. I'm going to miss that dual wielder +1 AC rule. Why would you get rid of it when there is such strong historical pretext for it?
Game On, Sibling!
Jack
Likely because in 2024, Dual Wielder gets you a whole extra attack if you also have Nick weapon mastery.
This doesn't work. Shadow Blade is a Bonus Action to Cast.
In addition, the Thirsting Blade invocation gives you an Extra Attack when you take the Attack action; it doesn't work on your Bonus action.
The thing is... Your Blade Pact Weapon and your Hex Weapon do not have to be the same weapon.
You are probably better off starting with a different Light weapon which is your Hexblade Weapon (and your Pact Weapon, if it's magical.). Assuming Level 12 Hexblade Warlock, and the Thirsting Blade and Devouring Blade invocations.
Turn One.
Turn Two, if you haven't lost Concentration yet on Shadow Blade:
Turn Three Onwards, if you still haven't lost concentration, and combat is still happening:
All the Dual Wielder feat buys you in the above situation is that your Hex Weapon doesn't need to be a Light Weapon.
If you have the Dual Wielder feat, and you have access to the Weapon Mastery Feature (through multiclassing or the Weapon Master Feat), and your chosen Hex Weapon is a Light weapon with Nick Mastery, then you have the following option:
Alternate Turn Three Onwards, if you still haven't lost concentration, and combat is still happening:
The biggest problem with the above is that you're using two turns to come fully online. Most combats don't last much longer than three turns, and if you lose Concentration on Shadow Blade, you have to start again from the beginning.
A better option might be to have one normal Light weapon you turn into your Hex Weapon and carry around, and manifest a Pact Weapon that you carry around, and use Hex as the damage enhancer.
Edit: Adjusted to add Devouring Blade effects; Didn't realize the initial build used that invocation.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Doh! You're right. Casting Shadowblade IS a bonus action. Whether you lost concentration on it or not, it only lasts a minute, meaning 10 turns in combat, making the whole thing a dubious enterprise.
The only thing Hex Warrior brings to Pact Blade is the ability to use two-handed weapons, which is pretty good if you can use your CHA modifiers on attack and damage roles.
Shadowblade just is overly complicating the beginning of combat to try and combining it with Pact Blade, which is frustrating and seemingly unnecessary. Would that make Shadowblade overpowered if you could use it with Devouring or Thirsting Blade? I don't know.
It still makes a nifty weapon to use with Dual Wielder since it has the light property and can be paired with a Pact Weapon.
Thank all y'all for helping me work through the various implications of the rules.
Game On, Siblings!
Jack
Having a dagger in the offhand (Main gauche style) and taking the Defensive Duelist feat allows a reaction parry to add Prof to AC (until start of your next turn vs melee in 2024).
Does that help with the 2 weapon flavour?
Life's hard - get a helmet!
Best setup I can see for a dual-wielding Hexblade Warlock would be to just have two light weapons, one with the Nick mastery, and make one your Hex weapon and one your Pact weapon. Both will use your charisma. Take 1 level of fighter for weapon masteries, and by level 12 (Fighter 1, Warlock 12) you will be able to make 5 attacks on your turn (3 from the Attack action, 1 from Nick mastery, 1 from Dual Wielder as a bonus action). Cast spirit shroud, use a shortsword and scimitar, and your damage per round (assuming everything hits) would be 5d6+10d8+25 or 83.5 on average. Pretty solid damage, and you could still drop an Eldritch Smite should your score a critical hit for an extra 12d8.
Howdy Sequilonis!
That sounds like a powerful build and the best maximization of attack actions. It seems like my original interest in shadow blade was more of a red herring. It's too bad, as far as flavor and cool go, it would've been great to be able to use it as your primary weapon. It seemed to fit all the necessary requirements, except that it is a BA and lasts one minute.
The biggest problem with the build after working out all of the dual wielding issues is the AC. There's really no way to get it over 17 without some type of magic like, so temporary HP becomes a premium. Also, the two magic pact spell slots become a bottle neck. You've got a long long list of powerful spells and only two to cast, three with magical cunning.
It seems a class built to frustrate the player or challenge you to find the best ways to use its strengths and minimize its weaknesses. It's been fun to delve into the options and consider everything that's available.
Game On, Sibling!
Jack
Having a Feat or Class Dip to get Nick Mastery.
Turn 1
Action: Attack + Nick Mastery attack
Free Action: Stow one weapon
Bonus action: Cast Shadow Blade
Turn 2
Bonus action: make Shadow Blade your Pact weapon
Attack with Shadow Blade + Nick Mastery Attack
Enjoy Gish Invocations
Turn 3+
Shadow Blade attack + Nick attack + BA class ability / Spell / BA attack
What is it specifically you're looking to build, I can see a lot of discussion around it and it's obviously a 2-weapon fighting build, but what is it you want in that 2 weapon fighting build that would make it the build that you are after? If it's the rapier+dagger combo specifically, unfortunately that just doesn't work as well in 2024 due to weapon masteries and rapier lacking the light property, it's hard to find a reason to not use the scimitar+shortsword pairing as they do significantly better than any other pairing unless there is resistances/vulnerabilities at play.
Personally, I think a solution to this wouldn't be too hard to homebrew. Like a dagger of parry, When you make an attack with the dagger of parry, any rapiers in your inventory count as having the light weapon property until the end of your current turn and you gain a +1 increase in AC while you are not wearing medium or heavy armour until the start of your next turn. So it is something that can be solved through homebrew but needs okaying from a DM, ultimately that is what homebrew exists for however, to customise the game more to tables preferences.
Also in regards to the question about why Dual Wielder doesn't give +1AC anymore, I think it's important to note that it is now a half-feat granting Dexterity (or Strength), most builds using 2 weapon fighting are going to be using Dexterity for AC. So if Dual Wielder is your first pick of a feat and you have a dexterity score of 17, you'd increase to 18 and move from a +3 to a +4 modifier and so technically speaking it can lead to an increase in AC. Also Dual Wielder is just way more powerful in 2024, but I do not believe that to be the reason, rather it's the potential increase to Dexterity.
Howdy Resistance!
Thank you for your very direct response. The first thing is that it is my own very personal pet peeve that DnD would not make the rapier and blocking dagger possible since it has such a strong historical basis. It just sticks in my craw. It defies my neurodivergent obsessive-compulsive brain, so one of my many diversions has been trying to figure a way to make it work without homebrewing it.That really is it.
Also, my first reading of pact of the blade, hexblade, and shadow blade gave me hope that a character could produce a light rapier and pair it with a dagger in two-weapon fighting.
The character had a DEX of 17, so the improvement from Dual Wielder didn't improve their AC, so there's that. But, it really is about the jumble of rules that exists in my mind from having played ADnD, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 5e, and now 2024. One of the things that this little exercise did for me was clarify much about the warlock class and the 2024 rules for me personally.
I really appreciate the help that has been provided to help clarify rules and think through how they apply, combine, and the possibilities of using them.
Thank you for your contribution. For example, just pointing out that by adding a point to DEX, you might get a point more of AC, was a connection wasn't something that I had put together explicitly in this instance. These things are all helpful.
Game On, Sibling!
Jack
PS I absolutely hate the idea of two-weapon fighting with a scimitar and short sword. I could never bear it. The resistances and vulnerabilities, however, are all self-imposed and absolutely irrational.
Howdy Marc!
The problem is that shadow blade lasts one minute and is a concentration spell. It's like they made it just so it couldn't be used for this purpose.
Game On, Sibling!
Jack
I think it's a valid pet peeve since it is something that was historically done (rapier + parrying dagger, rapier + buckler and rapier + cloth), those should have all been options, I think these do not exist in 5E for the reason of simplicity, unfortunately.
Another option is the Defensive Duellist Feat, it isn't specifically for 2 weapon fighting but it does give parry as a reaction, so you can play it as you use the dagger for performing parry. This however doesn't fix the issues on the rapier end, the only non-homebrew idea I could come up with was using a Dance Sword (rapier), but that is a very rare magic item and would be overpowered... and still not be what you're after, instead you'd be using three weapons (dagger attack, nick attack, BA Dance Sword attack). It's that or stylise a shortsword as a "shortened Rapier", I guess.
Howdy Resistance!
I figure they shoulda made it one weapon: rapier AND dagger, rapier AND buckler. It's not like it is a simple game and other rules and situations aren't complicated and intricately designed. However, it is like you said, that is what the homebrew option is for. I suppose, I'll give up and homebrew up my rapier and dagger and refuse to play until the DM allows it or I'll just equip every NPC I use with it. Ha hA! That'll show 'em.
Huzzah!
Jack
As long as you don't attack with the offhand weapon, you can have it in your hand. or you can reflavor a shield into a dagger. if you want to attack with it, then you'll need shortsword and dagger. Simply re-flavor the shortsword. You can't let yourself get too caught up on what title they give a weapon in game. It's not a 'rapier', it's a d8, finesse thrusting weapon and it looks however you want it to look. As long as you don't fiddle with the system math, you can flavor your weapons to look however you want them to look.
the rules as written were done they way they are to prevent dual wield from eclipsing sword and shield. And if you could gain a whole extra attack at the cost of only 1AC, it's worth it. It's the same reason why shield bashes don't do damage even though someone jamming the edge of a shield into your face is going to hurt, a lot.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Howdy Crzy!
Yeah, I know about reflavoring. I have a gnome artificer whose armor is trench coat and fez.In this case it is an irrational obsession that won't be satisfied with reflavoring.
The problem is that it is a fundamental misunderstanding of what two-weapon fighting is. DnD has conceptualized it as two separate weapons held one in each hand. Each weapon making its own attack. Instead, they should be thinking of it as one weapon similar to great weapons. They take two hands to wield. So, does a rapier and parrying dagger. A greataxe does 1d12 damage, a greatsword, 2d6. Make the rapier and parrying dagger a two-handed weapon that does 1d10 damage and gives a point to AC or allows the parry as a bonus action giving a point to AC.
Once was a damaging shield bash was a thing. At one time bucklers were a thing.
The system already is complex and their are parts that are overpowered and parts underpowered. At some point in DnD's development, someone somewhere decided that rapier and dagger wasn't going to be a thing.
It is just a bone stuck in my craw. Trying to solve it is an interesting hobby for me.
Game On, Sibling!
Jack
you're talking about a weapon system. the problem is, your suggestion is strictly superior to other options, such as the longsword held two handed. Rapier and dagger absolutely is a thing. A defensive benefit from two weapons is not a thing.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha