How good or regrettable would it be for an evocation wizard to take only save based damaging cantrips? Im playing a high half-elf and being given a free starting feat so I'm planning on taking magical initiate. With all that, I've been considering taking ToD, create bonfire and acid splash, mage hand, prestidigitation and message. We are going to be starting at level 3 but I know all those will jive with potent cantrip at level 6. Thoughts?
Looks like fun, enjoy. Remember Potent Cantrip applies to any damaging cantrip you cast that requires a save. So magic initiate can get you sacred flame and it will work also.
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Best damaging cantrips are actually save-based, like Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead. I’d add Frostbite to this list also because the rider effect is quite good, you will diversify your damage types with Cold and you would have one cantrip for each save (Create Bonfire DEX, Toll the Dead WIS, Frostbite CON).
However, I recommend you to have at least one spell attack cantrip just in case — maybe you are fighting against a really poor AC enemy or your enemy is paralyzed. I know most people don’t like but I’m a fan of Shocking Grasp + Find Familiar, especially if you have another caster in the group who can use Hold Person. At level 5 we are talking about 4d8 (auto-crit) lightning damage, this is good!
Just take care with cantrips & spells acquired through Magic Initiate if you didn’t select an INT caster class (actually only Wizard and Artificer), if you selected Cleric and Sacred Flame, the save DC will be keyed off on your WIS, not INT.
I thought about frostbite because it stacks with empowered evocation but minus that between it and acid splash I find acid splash to be more effective.
I’ve found that after 3rd level wizards don’t use cantrips for damage very often because they have better things to do with their actions. It’s nice to have a couple of damage types and it’s also nice having an attack roll cantrip, a wisdom save cantrip, and either a dexterity or Constitution cantrip but after that you’ll have more combat cantrips than you’ll use, even with the evoker’s 6th level ability.
All the games im playing in, including the one this character is going to be in, uses the gritty realism rest mechanic so I only get spell slots back after 7 days of rest. From experience I tend to rely on cantrips much more than I would with the standard rules.
All the games im playing in, including the one this character is going to be in, uses the gritty realism rest mechanic so I only get spell slots back after 7 days of rest. From experience I tend to rely on cantrips much more than I would with the standard rules.
Within these rules, short-rest or no-rest dependent classes would benefit a lot, like Warlock or Rogue. Eldritch Blast and Sneak Attack should be kings at your table.
But coming back to your main point, I suggest you to get Magic Initiate (Artificer). Pick Guidance and Thorn Whip as your additional cantrips. The spell doesn’t matter that much but Cure Wounds and Faerie Fire are quite good.
Then select Create Bonfire, Toll the Dead and Minor Illusion from Wizard.
Signature move: Setup your Bonfire properly and move around pulling your enemies into it using Thorn Whip. Drop a flask of oil in your Bonfire using your Familiar or an Unseen Servant and expect to cause 1d6 (Thorn Whip) + 1d8 (Create Bonfire) + 5 (oil) in an ideal round.
Quite good for an almost resourceless combination, no?
So if I did break down and take a spell attack cantrip which one? firebolt? which of my 3 damaging cantrips should I swap out, ToD, create bonfire or acid splash?
My DM is going to let me swap sculpt spell and potent cantrips levels, since I won't have any spells worth sculpting until level 5 anyways.
However, I recommend you to have at least one spell attack cantrip just in case — maybe you are fighting against a really poor AC enemy or your enemy is paralyzed. I know most people don’t like but I’m a fan of Shocking Grasp + Find Familiar, especially if you have another caster in the group who can use Hold Person. At level 5 we are talking about 4d8 (auto-crit) lightning damage, this is good!
So i can't argue with the crit aspect here, but any dex save would be an auto hit in this scenario.
But outside edge cases, do you want the chance to crit, or do you never want to roll an attack die, and always do damage when you cast a cantrip(lvl 6 forward)
Yes you can do it. My question is, why would you want to? Is there a specific reason to do so? You can't crit with a save cantrip but you can crit with an attack roll cantrip is one reason why you might want to re-evaluate.
If you do "break down" firebolt is usually my last choice. The d10 looks nice but that's about all it does and it's highly resisted fire damage type. I generally prefer chill touch for being necromantic or ray of frost for having the slow effect.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
See to me the math doesn't work out on the crit issue. A 5% chance to crit, 1 on 20, does double damage. Ok, At low levels and even moving up its a close to 1:1 ratio on to hit/damage, 55% on attack cantrips, 50% for save cantrips over a long corse of math. Doing double damage 1 in 20 attempts with 45% missing all together vs always doing at least half damage, to me, seems like the much better deal.
you don't do half damage on a save with cantrips. If the target saves, no damage is done. from Toll the Dead:
You point at one creature you can see within range, and the sound of a dolorous bell fills the air around it for a moment. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d8 necrotic damage. If the target is missing any of its hit points, it instead takes 1d12 necrotic damage.
The spell’s damage increases by one die when you reach 5th level (2d8 or 2d12), 11th level (3d8 or 3d12), and 17th level (4d8 or 4d12).
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
you don't do half damage on a save with cantrips. If the target saves, no damage is done. from Toll the Dead:
You point at one creature you can see within range, and the sound of a dolorous bell fills the air around it for a moment. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d8 necrotic damage. If the target is missing any of its hit points, it instead takes 1d12 necrotic damage.
The spell’s damage increases by one die when you reach 5th level (2d8 or 2d12), 11th level (3d8 or 3d12), and 17th level (4d8 or 4d12).
cantrips do half damage as an evoker with potent cantrip...
I think I said it but I’d I didn’t, my DM is letting me swap the levels for sculpt spell and potent cantrip so I get potent cantrip right off(lvl 2). Sculpt spell doesn’t really become useful until level 5 work fireball and the like.
Going with this concept overall, I’m sold on ToD and create bonfire, which my dm said he’ll let me cast at creatures in the air I just can’t maintain it. Should I break down and take ray of frost? Or stick with save cantrips, in which case which would be better, acid splash or mind sliver?
I'm in a game where my main combat cantrip is Mind sliver, still low level so i haven't gotten much use out of its secondary effect since goblins seem to die before anyone else uses a save spell. That said its a fun spell, I flavored mine as getting songs stuck in my opponents head (think baby shark, or its a small world).
I think I said it but I’d I didn’t, my DM is letting me swap the levels for sculpt spell and potent cantrip so I get potent cantrip right off(lvl 2). Sculpt spell doesn’t really become useful until level 5 work fireball and the like.
Going with this concept overall, I’m sold on ToD and create bonfire, which my dm said he’ll let me cast at creatures in the air I just can’t maintain it. Should I break down and take ray of frost? Or stick with save cantrips, in which case which would be better, acid splash or mind sliver?
As Noksa replied, Mind Sliver will really pay off in the long run. You shouldn’t look to do espetacular damage with cantrips. Only dedicated builds can accomplish this (Sorlock abusing EB and Hex/Hexblade shenanigans; Booming Blade Arcane Tricksters, etc). You should use your cantrips to support your big spells or when you honestly don’t have anything better to do — then a good Toll the Dead is fine.
Create Bonfire damage is crappy, but the tactical advantage and the synergy with a grappler/pusher is great, for instance. Block a small corridor to avoid enemies rushing is smart. Just throw your bonfire unto the next goblin around is a waste.
Create Bonfire damage is crappy, but the tactical advantage and the synergy with a grappler/pusher is great, for instance. Block a small corridor to avoid enemies rushing is smart. Just throw your bonfire unto the next goblin around is a waste.
The worst thing about Create Bonfire is that it requires concentration, so you can't use it when you're concentrating on another spell.
yeah, I agree, I just wish you could chose to cast it and maintain concentration or just let it flash and be done and not require or frag concentration on other spells
How good or regrettable would it be for an evocation wizard to take only save based damaging cantrips? Im playing a high half-elf and being given a free starting feat so I'm planning on taking magical initiate. With all that, I've been considering taking ToD, create bonfire and acid splash, mage hand, prestidigitation and message. We are going to be starting at level 3 but I know all those will jive with potent cantrip at level 6. Thoughts?
Looks like fun, enjoy. Remember Potent Cantrip applies to any damaging cantrip you cast that requires a save. So magic initiate can get you sacred flame and it will work also.
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww
Best damaging cantrips are actually save-based, like Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead. I’d add Frostbite to this list also because the rider effect is quite good, you will diversify your damage types with Cold and you would have one cantrip for each save (Create Bonfire DEX, Toll the Dead WIS, Frostbite CON).
However, I recommend you to have at least one spell attack cantrip just in case — maybe you are fighting against a really poor AC enemy or your enemy is paralyzed. I know most people don’t like but I’m a fan of Shocking Grasp + Find Familiar, especially if you have another caster in the group who can use Hold Person. At level 5 we are talking about 4d8 (auto-crit) lightning damage, this is good!
Just take care with cantrips & spells acquired through Magic Initiate if you didn’t select an INT caster class (actually only Wizard and Artificer), if you selected Cleric and Sacred Flame, the save DC will be keyed off on your WIS, not INT.
I thought about frostbite because it stacks with empowered evocation but minus that between it and acid splash I find acid splash to be more effective.
I’ve found that after 3rd level wizards don’t use cantrips for damage very often because they have better things to do with their actions. It’s nice to have a couple of damage types and it’s also nice having an attack roll cantrip, a wisdom save cantrip, and either a dexterity or Constitution cantrip but after that you’ll have more combat cantrips than you’ll use, even with the evoker’s 6th level ability.
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All the games im playing in, including the one this character is going to be in, uses the gritty realism rest mechanic so I only get spell slots back after 7 days of rest. From experience I tend to rely on cantrips much more than I would with the standard rules.
Within these rules, short-rest or no-rest dependent classes would benefit a lot, like Warlock or Rogue. Eldritch Blast and Sneak Attack should be kings at your table.
But coming back to your main point, I suggest you to get Magic Initiate (Artificer). Pick Guidance and Thorn Whip as your additional cantrips. The spell doesn’t matter that much but Cure Wounds and Faerie Fire are quite good.
Then select Create Bonfire, Toll the Dead and Minor Illusion from Wizard.
Signature move: Setup your Bonfire properly and move around pulling your enemies into it using Thorn Whip. Drop a flask of oil in your Bonfire using your Familiar or an Unseen Servant and expect to cause 1d6 (Thorn Whip) + 1d8 (Create Bonfire) + 5 (oil) in an ideal round.
Quite good for an almost resourceless combination, no?
So if I did break down and take a spell attack cantrip which one? firebolt? which of my 3 damaging cantrips should I swap out, ToD, create bonfire or acid splash?
My DM is going to let me swap sculpt spell and potent cantrips levels, since I won't have any spells worth sculpting until level 5 anyways.
So i can't argue with the crit aspect here, but any dex save would be an auto hit in this scenario.
But outside edge cases, do you want the chance to crit, or do you never want to roll an attack die, and always do damage when you cast a cantrip(lvl 6 forward)
I would keep Create Bonfire, Toll the Dead and replace Acid Splash for Ray of Frost.
Yes you can do it. My question is, why would you want to? Is there a specific reason to do so? You can't crit with a save cantrip but you can crit with an attack roll cantrip is one reason why you might want to re-evaluate.
If you do "break down" firebolt is usually my last choice. The d10 looks nice but that's about all it does and it's highly resisted fire damage type. I generally prefer chill touch for being necromantic or ray of frost for having the slow effect.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
See to me the math doesn't work out on the crit issue. A 5% chance to crit, 1 on 20, does double damage. Ok, At low levels and even moving up its a close to 1:1 ratio on to hit/damage, 55% on attack cantrips, 50% for save cantrips over a long corse of math. Doing double damage 1 in 20 attempts with 45% missing all together vs always doing at least half damage, to me, seems like the much better deal.
you don't do half damage on a save with cantrips. If the target saves, no damage is done. from Toll the Dead:
You point at one creature you can see within range, and the sound of a dolorous bell fills the air around it for a moment. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d8 necrotic damage. If the target is missing any of its hit points, it instead takes 1d12 necrotic damage.
The spell’s damage increases by one die when you reach 5th level (2d8 or 2d12), 11th level (3d8 or 3d12), and 17th level (4d8 or 4d12).
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
cantrips do half damage as an evoker with potent cantrip...
I think I said it but I’d I didn’t, my DM is letting me swap the levels for sculpt spell and potent cantrip so I get potent cantrip right off(lvl 2). Sculpt spell doesn’t really become useful until level 5 work fireball and the like.
Going with this concept overall, I’m sold on ToD and create bonfire, which my dm said he’ll let me cast at creatures in the air I just can’t maintain it. Should I break down and take ray of frost? Or stick with save cantrips, in which case which would be better, acid splash or mind sliver?
I'm in a game where my main combat cantrip is Mind sliver, still low level so i haven't gotten much use out of its secondary effect since goblins seem to die before anyone else uses a save spell. That said its a fun spell, I flavored mine as getting songs stuck in my opponents head (think baby shark, or its a small world).
As Noksa replied, Mind Sliver will really pay off in the long run. You shouldn’t look to do espetacular damage with cantrips. Only dedicated builds can accomplish this (Sorlock abusing EB and Hex/Hexblade shenanigans; Booming Blade Arcane Tricksters, etc). You should use your cantrips to support your big spells or when you honestly don’t have anything better to do — then a good Toll the Dead is fine.
Create Bonfire damage is crappy, but the tactical advantage and the synergy with a grappler/pusher is great, for instance. Block a small corridor to avoid enemies rushing is smart. Just throw your bonfire unto the next goblin around is a waste.
The worst thing about Create Bonfire is that it requires concentration, so you can't use it when you're concentrating on another spell.
yeah, I agree, I just wish you could chose to cast it and maintain concentration or just let it flash and be done and not require or frag concentration on other spells
I am just here say what do I need to make a wizard subclass