As an Armorour with a Guardian Armor selected and Propulsion Armor infusion attached, could the Artificer "Throw" his fists (as per PA ) and give a disadvantage for attacks not against him (as per TG)?
I could see this as a fair way to tank and insure that at least two allies are taking attacks at disadvantage.
There is some debate about this. Some think that they count as separate weapons so you can’t use both effects while some think it is a straight upgrade due to propulsion armor being a level 14 infusion. Does this also mean you can infuse the gauntlets because the propulsion armor is assigned to the armor section, not the gauntlets directly? Do you get both thunder damage and force damage from an attack? Can you increase the range with the eldritch claw tattoo? Frankly at level 14 I would say yes to all of those questions. The armorer is not a major damage dealer and needs every advantage it can get to stay relevant on the battlefield.
By RAW, the Thunder Gauntlet feature of the Armorer and the weapon-like feature of the Arcane Propulsion Armor are separate features. They do not stack, you choose which feature you're using at the time of the attack. Many players dispute this, but thinking of it in terms of other weapons helps illustrate the issue - if you hold a Flametongue longsword in one hand, and then add a Frost Brand longsword to the same hand, do you get to attack with one longsword strike that has the effects of both the Flametongue and the Frost Brand? Of course not, the idea is ridiculous on the face of it. The exact same stacking rules apply to the different "gauntlet" attacks.
A DM can rule otherwise, of course, and many players argue that a 14th level infusion should be allowed to be cool. That's certainly a valid want and there's not likely any irreversible harm in allowing the combination, but it is not something that works as written.
The problem is they are two distinct (and somewhat contradictory) attacks, even if they are with the same "weapon."
One is a melee attack that does 1d8 thunder damage with a particular rider effect
The other is a melee attack that does 1d8 force damage, that can be thrown
Does having the option to Shove with an attack action mean you can stack a regular attack and a shove onto the same attack? (No, it does not.)
Probably the most reasonable RAW answer is the armorer would be able to choose which to use with each attack. (Seems maybe more synergistic to combine with Infiltrator armor, instead of Guardian armor...you'd get the option of a closer-but-more-damage attack and a total of +10 feet of movement.)
Quote me the rule that says you cannot do both types of damage from using both of these features at the same time.
Neither feature says the effects add to anything else. They say
"each one deals 1d8 force damage on a hit" (and other stuff)
"it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit" (and other stuff)
if one or the other or both said "deals an additional 1d8 when used to punch" then it would make sense that they stack (and stack with whatever your regular punch damage was), but they don't say anything like that.
There's no precedence for this case (it's not like you're gonna find an existing rule for "combine a longsword and a greataxe into a single weapon" that says "damages stack" or "damages don't stack" either way...).
Alternatively, "quote me a rule that says you can stack damage from two different weapons in the same attack."
Quote me the rule that says you cannot do both types of damage from using both of these features at the same time.
Rules don't exist to prevent you from doing things; they exist to allow you to do things. We have two features: one says your gauntlet is one thing, the other says your gauntlet is a different thing. What you need to do is quote a rule that explains how to combine them.
Quote me the rule that says you cannot do both types of damage from using both of these features at the same time.
TRDSIC is never a good argument. After all, there's no rule saying you can't hold five halberds in one hand and deal all their damage at once either, or a rule saying spellcasters can't eat an extravagant steak dinner to regain their spell slots, or a rule saying you can't force the NPC barmaid to go on a date with you, or a rule saying that you can't do any number of the uncountable things the rules don't explicitly disallow.
Thunder Gauntlets are a weapon. Propulsion Fists ate a different, separate weapon. The fact that they theoretically occupy the same chunk of metal doesn't stop the rules from being the rules. A DM is perfectly free to decide otherwise, but you can't advise someone that the rules explicitly allow them to do something those rules absolutely do not explicitly allow.
Each feature gives you options, one to make a melee attack, the other to make a melee attack or a ranged attack with a melee weapon (it has the thrown property), and as a player whenever you have an option you get to make a choice... can we at least agree on that?
That's kinda the point. You get to make a choice. You choose between A or B, meaning you can't avoid the choice and do both.
The really real answer is "they didn't revise Arcane Propulsion Armor from previous books when they included it in Tasha's, which is unfortunate because Tasha's introduced the Armorer subclass, which has a great deal of overlap with the infusion, as if the infusion was a first draft of the subclass idea." It's probably an editing error (of which there are several in Tasha's, indicating that maybe some of the book was compiled under time pressure).
D&D's general rule (one of them, anyway) is that effects of the same kind don't stack. Duplication due to overlap is exactly the sort of thing that general rule was written for...so writers being thorough don't accidentally create stacking bonuses.
Listen, guy. You don't get to stack weapon attributes in D&D. This is a well known, *settled* edge case. Your gauntlets gain both functions but you can only use one function at a time. You don't get to magically double your damage dice and impose disadvantage on evey enemy in the field from five hundred feet away. You get Thunder Gauntlet *OR* Propulsion Fist for any given attack. Not. Both.
This wouldn't even be a question if Wizards hadn't been so gutless that they removed the Arcane Propulsion *Arm* and replaced it with armor. The item was supposed to be a cybermantic limb replacement, NOT fancy gloves. Replacing the Arcane Propulsion Arm and the Ventilating Lungs with wearables was a weenie move for cowards and it caused problems the way weenie moves for cowards tend to.
These 2 features do different types of damage and therefore do stack.
You get both damage rolls when either feature is used to make an attack and hit with said attack.
1d8 force damage.
1d8 thunder damage.
Both. Always and forever and millions of people will agree and use it this way.
It is not only fair it is RAW.
No, it's not.
Neither feature says "your gauntlet does an extra 1d8 whatever damage" or "your gauntlet is this in additionto whatever it was before." Each feature assigns a new identity to the gauntlet. It does not add to the existing identity. If you wild shape into a dog and then someone polymorphs you into a cat, you're not both a dog and a cat.
What the texts say are "your gauntlet = X" and "your gauntlet = Y." These are incompatible. You're acting like they say "your gauntlet += X" and "your gauntlet += Y" and if that's what the text said, you'd be right! But it's not what the text says.
Does anyone else get to add an entire second weapon to their weapon for free, without any cost, resource or penalty?
Can I afd the damage of my magic sword I just found to the damage of my magic halberd? Roll both their damage at once with every attack just because I'd like to deal more damage than I can by using my one weapon?
Can I wear multiple sets of magic armor and gain their magical benefits while also stacking their armor class to put myself at 40+ AC?
Can I declare my mage's basic quarterstaff to also be a Staff of Power, a Staff of Thunder and Lightning, and a Staff of Dunamancy all at the same time, gaining the fill benefits of all of them and gaining 50+ charges to fuel it?
The answer is no. No I cannot. Because one of the core rules of this game is that features of items, species, classes, feats, or anything else do not compound with each other unless they explicitly say they do.
You are deliberately misleading a new player. This interaction has long since been settled. By the official rules of the official game, you cannot attack with two different weapons in the same attack. Thunder Gauntlet and Propulsion Fists, in the rules, count as different weapons. Think of them as different modes of enchantment upon your gauntlets - the same item carries both enchantments but you have to choose which mode to use for each individual attack. You do not get to dramatically outdamage every other weapon in D&D by a *giant* margin because nobody thought to explicitly tell you you can't.
Neither feature assigns a new identity to the gauntlet, they both say the gauntlet is a gauntlet.
They absolutely do. Thunder Gauntlets says that it's "a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit." Arcane Propulsion Armor says that it's "a magic melee weapon that can be wielded only when the hand is holding nothing."
But I think it's impossible to have this conversation with someone who doesn't understand basic concepts of identity and assignment, so I think I'll leave it here.
@Utsu_Yami: I recommend asking your DM about this interaction, seeing what they think. Your DM is the ultimate authority, not Internet randoms. You've gotten a few different opinions in this thread, with different justifications. It's better for you to get the opinion of the person who runs your game at this point.
Just adding (and ignoring all the pointless discussion) - while you can use both features, but damage doesn't stack (like almost everyone agrees), most would also agree that it shouldn't be broken at lvl 14 to let them.
Either your gauntlet is sparking with thunder, or it has rocket boosters, not both. (Side note, saying show me the rule where it says I can’t do this is the exact same as saying: Show me the rule that says I cannot state myself to be god and instakill the bbeg. Rules say you *can* do something not you *can’t*)
Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit. A creature hit by the gauntlet has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the start of your next turn, as the armor magically emits a distracting pulse when the creature attacks someone else.
The armor includes gauntlets, each of which is a magic melee weapon that can be wielded only when the hand is holding nothing. The wearer is proficient with the gauntlets, and each one deals 1d8 force damage on a hit and has the thrown property, with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. When thrown, the gauntlet detaches and flies at the attack’s target, then immediately returns to the wearer and reattaches.
We know what the features are, there are just no rules that say that you can combine them so RAW you can’t, they are 2 different things your gauntlets can do. Rules say you *can* do something not you *can’t*. And they don’t say you can combine the features.
Please provide a valid ruling that shows why they work together, other than the fact that they are both gauntlets.
.. and please provide a valid ruling that shows why they don't work together. It comes down to how the DM wants to run it in their game and how the DM wants to rule it.
One way to look at it: Arcane propulsion armor includes gauntlets, guardian armor feature includes gauntlets, they are obviously different gauntlets so you have to choose one effect or the other since you won't be wearing two pairs a the same time. (Inherent assumption - the effects create different pairs of gauntlets instead of applying effects to the gauntlets that are part of the armor - also assumes that the gauntlets of the guardian armorer arcane armor LOSE their properties if the Arcane propulsion armor infusion is applied to the armor).
Another way to look at it: Arcane propulsion armor includes gauntlets, armorer arcane armor feature when in guardian mode allows the gauntlets to do d8 thunder damage with other effects. Is the armor with the arcane propulsion armor infusion also arcane armor? Yes. Does a suit of armor have more than one pair of gauntlets. No. The gauntlets thus have the effect of both the thunder gauntlets and the arcane propulsion armor feature at the same time. (Inherent Assumption: the arcane armor applies a property to gauntlets that are a part of the armor, arcane propulsion armor infusion applies to the armor (for an armorer artificer) and refers to the SAME gauntlets that have the guardian property from the arcane armor and they do not lose the guardian property just because an infusion is applied to the armor).
Is either approach bad/unfun/wrong/incorrect/not RAW ... nope, at least not in my opinion, because nothing in the rules explicitly states that these effects can either be combined or not combined. How many sets of gauntlets does a guardian arcane armor with the arcane propulsion armor infusion have? Does it have two sets of gauntlets on top of each other or is there only one set with both properties? Are the text of these features exclusive or additive? Folks can argue for as long as they like but the text itself does not state clearly either way leaving this up to the DM to decide.
Finally, is it overpowered? No. Consider a paladin has effectively the same or more since EVERY attack made by the paladin adds d8 radiant damage from improved divine smite to their weapon attacks from level 11 onward. This is actually amounts to more than the d8 of force damage potentially added to the thunder gauntlets (the thrown ability is mostly a ribbon for a character using the thunder gauntlets to melee). So, it isn't unbalanced and RAW is at best ambiguous - so it is up to a DM call.
Please provide a valid ruling that shows why they work together, other than the fact that they are both gauntlets.
.. and please provide a valid ruling that shows why they don't work together. It comes down to how the DM wants to run it in their game and how the DM wants to rule it.
One way to look at it: Arcane propulsion armor includes gauntlets, guardian armor feature includes gauntlets, they are obviously different gauntlets so you have to choose one effect or the other since you won't be wearing two pairs a the same time. (Inherent assumption - the effects create different pairs of gauntlets instead of applying effects to the gauntlets that are part of the armor - also assumes that the gauntlets of the guardian armorer arcane armor LOSE their properties if the Arcane propulsion armor infusion is applied to the armor).
Another way to look at it: Arcane propulsion armor includes gauntlets, armorer arcane armor feature when in guardian mode allows the gauntlets to do d8 thunder damage with other effects. Is the armor with the arcane propulsion armor infusion also arcane armor? Yes. Does a suit of armor have more than one pair of gauntlets. No. The gauntlets thus have the effect of both the thunder gauntlets and the arcane propulsion armor feature at the same time. (Inherent Assumption: the arcane armor applies a property to gauntlets that are a part of the armor, arcane propulsion armor infusion applies to the armor (for an armorer artificer) and refers to the SAME gauntlets that have the guardian property from the arcane armor and they do not lose the guardian property just because an infusion is applied to the armor).
Is either approach bad/unfun/wrong/incorrect/not RAW ... nope, at least not in my opinion, because nothing in the rules explicitly states that these effects can either be combined or not combined. How many sets of gauntlets does a guardian arcane armor with the arcane propulsion armor infusion have? Does it have two sets of gauntlets on top of each other or is there only one set with both properties? Are the text of these features exclusive or additive? Folks can argue for as long as they like but the text itself does not state clearly either way leaving this up to the DM to decide.
Finally, is it overpowered? No. Consider a paladin has effectively the same or more since EVERY attack made by the paladin adds d8 radiant damage from improved divine smite to their weapon attacks from level 11 onward. This is actually amounts to more than the d8 of force damage potentially added to the thunder gauntlets (the thrown ability is mostly a ribbon for a character using the thunder gauntlets to melee). So, it isn't unbalanced and RAW is at best ambiguous - so it is up to a DM call.
I agree that it isn’t OP, but we are talking about RAW here, and nowhere in the rules does it say the features stack, so they don’t.
RAW stands for Rules As Written, and in this case the rules simply were not written, as such, you can’t.
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Theory crafting here.
As an Armorour with a Guardian Armor selected and Propulsion Armor infusion attached, could the Artificer "Throw" his fists (as per PA ) and give a disadvantage for attacks not against him (as per TG)?
I could see this as a fair way to tank and insure that at least two allies are taking attacks at disadvantage.
There is some debate about this. Some think that they count as separate weapons so you can’t use both effects while some think it is a straight upgrade due to propulsion armor being a level 14 infusion. Does this also mean you can infuse the gauntlets because the propulsion armor is assigned to the armor section, not the gauntlets directly? Do you get both thunder damage and force damage from an attack? Can you increase the range with the eldritch claw tattoo? Frankly at level 14 I would say yes to all of those questions. The armorer is not a major damage dealer and needs every advantage it can get to stay relevant on the battlefield.
By RAW, the Thunder Gauntlet feature of the Armorer and the weapon-like feature of the Arcane Propulsion Armor are separate features. They do not stack, you choose which feature you're using at the time of the attack. Many players dispute this, but thinking of it in terms of other weapons helps illustrate the issue - if you hold a Flametongue longsword in one hand, and then add a Frost Brand longsword to the same hand, do you get to attack with one longsword strike that has the effects of both the Flametongue and the Frost Brand? Of course not, the idea is ridiculous on the face of it. The exact same stacking rules apply to the different "gauntlet" attacks.
A DM can rule otherwise, of course, and many players argue that a 14th level infusion should be allowed to be cool. That's certainly a valid want and there's not likely any irreversible harm in allowing the combination, but it is not something that works as written.
Please do not contact or message me.
The problem is they are two distinct (and somewhat contradictory) attacks, even if they are with the same "weapon."
Does having the option to Shove with an attack action mean you can stack a regular attack and a shove onto the same attack? (No, it does not.)
Probably the most reasonable RAW answer is the armorer would be able to choose which to use with each attack. (Seems maybe more synergistic to combine with Infiltrator armor, instead of Guardian armor...you'd get the option of a closer-but-more-damage attack and a total of +10 feet of movement.)
Neither feature says the effects add to anything else. They say
if one or the other or both said "deals an additional 1d8 when used to punch" then it would make sense that they stack (and stack with whatever your regular punch damage was), but they don't say anything like that.
There's no precedence for this case (it's not like you're gonna find an existing rule for "combine a longsword and a greataxe into a single weapon" that says "damages stack" or "damages don't stack" either way...).
Alternatively, "quote me a rule that says you can stack damage from two different weapons in the same attack."
Rules don't exist to prevent you from doing things; they exist to allow you to do things. We have two features: one says your gauntlet is one thing, the other says your gauntlet is a different thing. What you need to do is quote a rule that explains how to combine them.
TRDSIC is never a good argument. After all, there's no rule saying you can't hold five halberds in one hand and deal all their damage at once either, or a rule saying spellcasters can't eat an extravagant steak dinner to regain their spell slots, or a rule saying you can't force the NPC barmaid to go on a date with you, or a rule saying that you can't do any number of the uncountable things the rules don't explicitly disallow.
Thunder Gauntlets are a weapon. Propulsion Fists ate a different, separate weapon. The fact that they theoretically occupy the same chunk of metal doesn't stop the rules from being the rules. A DM is perfectly free to decide otherwise, but you can't advise someone that the rules explicitly allow them to do something those rules absolutely do not explicitly allow.
Please do not contact or message me.
That's kinda the point. You get to make a choice. You choose between A or B, meaning you can't avoid the choice and do both.
The really real answer is "they didn't revise Arcane Propulsion Armor from previous books when they included it in Tasha's, which is unfortunate because Tasha's introduced the Armorer subclass, which has a great deal of overlap with the infusion, as if the infusion was a first draft of the subclass idea." It's probably an editing error (of which there are several in Tasha's, indicating that maybe some of the book was compiled under time pressure).
D&D's general rule (one of them, anyway) is that effects of the same kind don't stack. Duplication due to overlap is exactly the sort of thing that general rule was written for...so writers being thorough don't accidentally create stacking bonuses.
Listen, guy. You don't get to stack weapon attributes in D&D. This is a well known, *settled* edge case. Your gauntlets gain both functions but you can only use one function at a time. You don't get to magically double your damage dice and impose disadvantage on evey enemy in the field from five hundred feet away. You get Thunder Gauntlet *OR* Propulsion Fist for any given attack. Not. Both.
This wouldn't even be a question if Wizards hadn't been so gutless that they removed the Arcane Propulsion *Arm* and replaced it with armor. The item was supposed to be a cybermantic limb replacement, NOT fancy gloves. Replacing the Arcane Propulsion Arm and the Ventilating Lungs with wearables was a weenie move for cowards and it caused problems the way weenie moves for cowards tend to.
Please do not contact or message me.
No, it's not.
Neither feature says "your gauntlet does an extra 1d8 whatever damage" or "your gauntlet is this in addition to whatever it was before." Each feature assigns a new identity to the gauntlet. It does not add to the existing identity. If you wild shape into a dog and then someone polymorphs you into a cat, you're not both a dog and a cat.
What the texts say are "your gauntlet = X" and "your gauntlet = Y." These are incompatible. You're acting like they say "your gauntlet += X" and "your gauntlet += Y" and if that's what the text said, you'd be right! But it's not what the text says.
Brian.
Why do you think that's fair?
Does anyone else get to add an entire second weapon to their weapon for free, without any cost, resource or penalty?
Can I afd the damage of my magic sword I just found to the damage of my magic halberd? Roll both their damage at once with every attack just because I'd like to deal more damage than I can by using my one weapon?
Can I wear multiple sets of magic armor and gain their magical benefits while also stacking their armor class to put myself at 40+ AC?
Can I declare my mage's basic quarterstaff to also be a Staff of Power, a Staff of Thunder and Lightning, and a Staff of Dunamancy all at the same time, gaining the fill benefits of all of them and gaining 50+ charges to fuel it?
The answer is no. No I cannot. Because one of the core rules of this game is that features of items, species, classes, feats, or anything else do not compound with each other unless they explicitly say they do.
You are deliberately misleading a new player. This interaction has long since been settled. By the official rules of the official game, you cannot attack with two different weapons in the same attack. Thunder Gauntlet and Propulsion Fists, in the rules, count as different weapons. Think of them as different modes of enchantment upon your gauntlets - the same item carries both enchantments but you have to choose which mode to use for each individual attack. You do not get to dramatically outdamage every other weapon in D&D by a *giant* margin because nobody thought to explicitly tell you you can't.
Please do not contact or message me.
They absolutely do. Thunder Gauntlets says that it's "a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit." Arcane Propulsion Armor says that it's "a magic melee weapon that can be wielded only when the hand is holding nothing."
But I think it's impossible to have this conversation with someone who doesn't understand basic concepts of identity and assignment, so I think I'll leave it here.
Right.
@Utsu_Yami: I recommend asking your DM about this interaction, seeing what they think. Your DM is the ultimate authority, not Internet randoms. You've gotten a few different opinions in this thread, with different justifications. It's better for you to get the opinion of the person who runs your game at this point.
Please do not contact or message me.
Just adding (and ignoring all the pointless discussion) - while you can use both features, but damage doesn't stack (like almost everyone agrees), most would also agree that it shouldn't be broken at lvl 14 to let them.
Either your gauntlet is sparking with thunder, or it has rocket boosters, not both. (Side note, saying show me the rule where it says I can’t do this is the exact same as saying: Show me the rule that says I cannot state myself to be god and instakill the bbeg. Rules say you *can* do something not you *can’t*)
We know what the features are, there are just no rules that say that you can combine them so RAW you can’t, they are 2 different things your gauntlets can do. Rules say you *can* do something not you *can’t*. And they don’t say you can combine the features.
Please provide a valid ruling that shows why they work together, other than the fact that they are both gauntlets.
.. and please provide a valid ruling that shows why they don't work together. It comes down to how the DM wants to run it in their game and how the DM wants to rule it.
One way to look at it: Arcane propulsion armor includes gauntlets, guardian armor feature includes gauntlets, they are obviously different gauntlets so you have to choose one effect or the other since you won't be wearing two pairs a the same time. (Inherent assumption - the effects create different pairs of gauntlets instead of applying effects to the gauntlets that are part of the armor - also assumes that the gauntlets of the guardian armorer arcane armor LOSE their properties if the Arcane propulsion armor infusion is applied to the armor).
Another way to look at it: Arcane propulsion armor includes gauntlets, armorer arcane armor feature when in guardian mode allows the gauntlets to do d8 thunder damage with other effects. Is the armor with the arcane propulsion armor infusion also arcane armor? Yes. Does a suit of armor have more than one pair of gauntlets. No. The gauntlets thus have the effect of both the thunder gauntlets and the arcane propulsion armor feature at the same time. (Inherent Assumption: the arcane armor applies a property to gauntlets that are a part of the armor, arcane propulsion armor infusion applies to the armor (for an armorer artificer) and refers to the SAME gauntlets that have the guardian property from the arcane armor and they do not lose the guardian property just because an infusion is applied to the armor).
Is either approach bad/unfun/wrong/incorrect/not RAW ... nope, at least not in my opinion, because nothing in the rules explicitly states that these effects can either be combined or not combined. How many sets of gauntlets does a guardian arcane armor with the arcane propulsion armor infusion have? Does it have two sets of gauntlets on top of each other or is there only one set with both properties? Are the text of these features exclusive or additive? Folks can argue for as long as they like but the text itself does not state clearly either way leaving this up to the DM to decide.
Finally, is it overpowered? No. Consider a paladin has effectively the same or more since EVERY attack made by the paladin adds d8 radiant damage from improved divine smite to their weapon attacks from level 11 onward. This is actually amounts to more than the d8 of force damage potentially added to the thunder gauntlets (the thrown ability is mostly a ribbon for a character using the thunder gauntlets to melee). So, it isn't unbalanced and RAW is at best ambiguous - so it is up to a DM call.
I agree that it isn’t OP, but we are talking about RAW here, and nowhere in the rules does it say the features stack, so they don’t.
RAW stands for Rules As Written, and in this case the rules simply were not written, as such, you can’t.