I really enjoy the battlesmith. However, I wished the other two subclasses were a little more viable haha.
I feel that the artillerist is alright, but it doesnt keep up with the extra attack + attack with INT using ranged/ melee weapons+ shield spell capabilities + Steel defender that can impose disadvantage and deal damage while being able to attack on a bonus action skills of the battle smith. the bonus to AC and half cover is great, but i dunno its a really "static" bonus in my opinion...
The alchemist also seems like a class that is aggresively below mediocre at higher levels.
Artillerist scales just fine. Arcane Firearm gives +1d8 to any spell cast through it, the Firearm can also be your Enhanced Focus infusion (scaling the +hit of it). Your Eldritch Cannon is 2d8, bumping up to 3d8 at lvl 9, and then at 15 you can drop two Cannons and fire em both at once.
Also, the cantrips cast naturally scale up every 5ish levels as well.
I have no experience with the Alchemist since it doesn't interest me, so I'll leave that to others to chime in on.
At "Higher levels" two attacks from a battlesmith will average at 1d8+5 per weapon hit, which is overall (more or less) equivalent to a 2d8 strike. 4d8 from a Battlesmith's basic Extra Attack action. You can get a bit more by using a big two-handed weapon, but that's going to be pretty rare from what I've seen. Most everybody goes for sword/board variations, so 1d8+5 per strike. One can add an extra effective d8 from a +2 weapon, since the Battlesmith can obtain a +2 without much issue, so 2d8+14 overall damage. 23 per round, discounting other shit. before then you get 2d8+12 assuming max Intelligence and a +1, so 21.
The Artillerist will be attacking with Fire Bolt 95% of the time as their combat cantrip of choice, so 1d10/5.5 per 'stage' of the bolt. At fifth level where extra attack comes in, Fire Bolt + Arcane Firearm is 2d10+1d8, which averages out to ~15. Noticeably lower, but also better on a crit. At 11th level, when the Battlesmith is still averaging 23 a round, the Artillerist goes to 3d10+1d8, which averages to 21. Still slightly behind a +2 Battlesmith, but the Artillerist does it from 120 feet and its damage is irrespective of a maxed-out Intelligence or not, and the Artillerist's crit advantage is only getting higher.
At 17th level, the Artillerist goes up to 26.5; its 4d10+1d8 Fire Bolt blows away even a +2 weapon dual attack from a Battlesmith, and any crits that five-dice Firebolt lands are going to be scary. In terms of basic offense, the Artillerist starts out slightly behind but comes out ahead; its cannon easily outperforms the Defender in terms of damage unless the Battlesmith burns every Arcane Jolt it has on one fight.
In terms of other class features, the Artillerist holds up fine. Overall, the Artillerist is perfectly serviceable; I've had cause to pine wistfully for the strength and safety of a 120-foot Arcane Blaster'd Firebolt whilst trying to deal with my Battlesmith's crappy javelin combat.
The Alchemist...is awful. But that's not the Battlesmith's fault, that's Wizards overeacting like assbutts to people giving the 2019 UA Alchemist lip on the Homunculus issue.
Battle Smith and Artillerist are better than the Alchemist, but I'd say that Battle Smiths and Artillerists are about equal, both in flavor and abilities.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Have you given the crossbow Battle Smith any thought? Using a heavy crossbow with repeating weapon if you do not take crossbow expert, SSI with web or another utility spell to save slots for smites, arcane jolts, sharpshooter, and steel defender setting up to give advantage for your shooting atleast in theory could give a Battle Smith respectable damage output as well as the safety of 100/400 range to compare with the artillerist. I know the Artillerist still provides more consistent damage in a prolonged fight but its atleast another option for ranged artificer combat if these mechanics all work together like I believe they do, haven't had the chance myself to play one but i've obviously been brewing.
i feel all of the subclasses are really potent, especially the alchemist, you mean to tell me i can, with an 1st level spell slot, cast alter self, and have it affect somebody else? and i get to stack swiftness with longstrider? and i also get to achive flight with an first level spell slot? and none of these fantastic elixirs require concentration? you also mean to tell me i can heal 1d8 plus twice my int unlike the plebian that is the cleric, and add int to my fire damage, and poison damage, and acid damage, and necrotic damage? aso wands give their bonus to attack rolls regardles of if you use them as your focus or not, so one can still use alchemical savant with an enhanced arcane focus
and also, i get to give a bunch of temp hp to everyone who drinks my fantastic little potions? hell yeah! and with the 15th level feature, i, an mere half caster in world full of full casters, can cast an mighty 6th level spell, an feat no other half caster can even hope to achive without multiclassing, that is something indeed special, perhaps not with other casters in the party but it is indeed incredeble, and at 15th level you should normally not even have 5th level spells, and yet you can cast greater restoration, and you can do all of that without the super expensive components normally associated with greater restoration or even having it prepared, and you get all of that plus two resistances and an condition immunity
the arcane firearm might also seem weak, at least it does untill you realize you can turn an staff of the archmagi you found in the dungeon into a straight up gun and shoot people. and the artillerist also straight up out-does the battle smith in per-turn damage, 2d8 is far better than 1d8 + 2
the artillerist i feel is more if you want to combine the musket with repeating shot and just gun murder everyone, or if you plan to use a lot of constructs in your battle plan with tiny servant, golems and humonculi on your side whomst your steel defender can heal, while also being a pretty decent tank
all three of these subclasses really hone in on one aspect of the artificer, the martial aspect, the offensive spellcasting aspect and the support aspect, as you might notice i like one of these subclasses a little bit more, but all of them are pretty fine choices
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
like, you guys seem to be forgetting both that you can expend spell slots to create new experimental elixirs and choose what elixirs you create, and that you are simply part of an party, with the power of all your class and subclass abillities you can take this almost parental role in the party, where you make peoples strengths stronger and cover their weaknesses. Oh, we have a monk in our party? here, have this potion that gives you magic 1d6 unarmed strikes with +1 to attack and damage. Oh, we need to go underwater? Here, an experimental elixir can fix that (alter self). Need to cross a wide chasm or ravine, perhaps even reach the top of an tower but nobody can fly? buoyancy potion, slow but effective. Oh, people are getting hurt, well time to use my spell slots for healing. We have an person in the party who is making a speed based build? well how about we give em some more, that potion also stacks with longstrider! is somebody ether lagging behind in ac or making a high AC build? resilience potion gives a little bit more ac, do we want to disguise ourselves but think that the disguise kit is not enough? once again you can make what is basically polyjuice potions for first level spell slots that allows for essentially biological changes to the body, someone is lagging behind in accuracy or saves? potion of boldness. As you gain levels, you become at 5th level as competent in casting fire bolt as an 10th level evocation wizard as well as letting you estore more hit points, at 9th level your potions become even slightly better and now it might actually be worth it to spend even second level spell slots on them if percived as nessesary, and as for the 15th level milestone it is great and also as you go along in artificer level you gain even more ways to support your party, is one of your party members feeling worried going into an encounter with an red dragon? here, let me borrow your armor and make a few adjustments to make you more fireproof using the resistant armor infusion, or here, allow me to fix something up and give you my int bonus to an ability check or an saving throw, with 11th level spell storing item one can temporarily gift the abillity to cast certain spells to your party, allowing you to let the fighter or the palladin or whatever cast warding bond or something, once more letting you adapt to more situations and letting you even out some of the flaws in your party members. Yes every other artificer gets spell storing item and flash of genius, but i feel like the thing that makes alchemist special is how it embraces the supportive role of the artificer, perhaps not the most exiting role to play yet also an important one, that allows for a lot of good roleplaying opportunities and oh god this became a rather long, ranting post.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Artillerist works a bit differently but ends up being pretty much the same: use your action to fire a spell thought your wand (and it gets buffed by 1d8 at level 5) and then fire your cannon as a bonus action (witch deals 2d8-3d8) the cannon is also more sturdy than the defender if you make it a moveable gun and Untargatible if you make it tiny and turn it into a magic handgun.
The cannon is also more multi functional letting you deal AOE damage, make attack rolls or give temp hit points as a bonus action, so artificers deals at max about 2d6(could say 1d12 but 2d6 scales better) +intelligence twice and 1d8+2 to 6 damage per round, let's say its end game and the artificer used a smite spell last turn at highest level and a arcane jolt 60 ish damage in one turn
Artillerist will LETS say cast cone of cold witch gets buffed by 1d8 so 9d8 cold damage and a cinch save and you can have 2 guns at level 15 so another 6d8 as a spell attack or dex save 50 ish on there own not including using like wall of fire witch can also have its damage buffed by 1d8 or a cantrip like fire bolt doing 4d10+1d8 or toll of the dead as 4d12+1d8 you can also have the guns explode for 3d8 damage each and just re summon them for free where it takes a spell slot to bring the stell defender back from 0 witch in the early game is costly.
So no battle Smith does not scale better then the other subclasses
like, you guys seem to be forgetting both that you can expend spell slots to create new experimental elixirs and choose what elixirs you create, and that you are simply part of an party, with the power of all your class and subclass abillities you can take this almost parental role in the party, where you make peoples strengths stronger and cover their weaknesses. Oh, we have a monk in our party? here, have this potion that gives you magic 1d6 unarmed strikes with +1 to attack and damage. Oh, we need to go underwater? Here, an experimental elixir can fix that (alter self). Need to cross a wide chasm or ravine, perhaps even reach the top of an tower but nobody can fly? buoyancy potion, slow but effective. Oh, people are getting hurt, well time to use my spell slots for healing. We have an person in the party who is making a speed based build? well how about we give em some more, that potion also stacks with longstrider! is somebody ether lagging behind in ac or making a high AC build? resilience potion gives a little bit more ac, do we want to disguise ourselves but think that the disguise kit is not enough? once again you can make what is basically polyjuice potions for first level spell slots that allows for essentially biological changes to the body, someone is lagging behind in accuracy or saves? potion of boldness. As you gain levels, you become at 5th level as competent in casting fire bolt as an 10th level evocation wizard as well as letting you estore more hit points, at 9th level your potions become even slightly better and now it might actually be worth it to spend even second level spell slots on them if percived as nessesary, and as for the 15th level milestone it is great and also as you go along in artificer level you gain even more ways to support your party, is one of your party members feeling worried going into an encounter with an red dragon? here, let me borrow your armor and make a few adjustments to make you more fireproof using the resistant armor infusion, or here, allow me to fix something up and give you my int bonus to an ability check or an saving throw, with 11th level spell storing item one can temporarily gift the abillity to cast certain spells to your party, allowing you to let the fighter or the palladin or whatever cast warding bond or something, once more letting you adapt to more situations and letting you even out some of the flaws in your party members. Yes every other artificer gets spell storing item and flash of genius, but i feel like the thing that makes alchemist special is how it embraces the supportive role of the artificer, perhaps not the most exiting role to play yet also an important one, that allows for a lot of good roleplaying opportunities and oh god this became a rather long, ranting post.
And how many spell slots does a half caster have at level 3? How long does each elixir last? And how many actions/people do they take to use? The fact that you can use spell slots to make elixirs not random is frankly really annoying for a feature that ought not to be random in the first place!
As an alchemist you have 6 options of elixirs to choose from. 1 is instantaneous, 1 lasts an hour, 1 lasts a minute, the other 3 last 10 minutes each. That's an average duration of 15.33 minutes per elixir used. Economy wise - that's roughly 1 hour of elixir effects per day at level 3 if the Alchemist uses their spell slots for nothing else. But honestly how often are you going to pick swiftness (which is worse than Longstrider since it only affects walking speed) before level 9 when it gets the bonus of temp hp? Excluding that one it's really 5 options with an average duration of 6.2 minutes per elixir. With all spell slots on elixirs that's just under 25 minutes of effect per day.
Compare that to how many times can the Artillerist can summon their cannon? How long does it last each time? How many actions does it take to use in combat? At level 3 an Artillerist has up to 1 hour free and potentially 3 hours more of Eldritch cannon. Choice-wise the Artillerist gets 3 types of cannon to choose from.
And compare that to how many times per day can the battle smith revive their steel defender from 0 hit points? (Ignoring that they can heal it for free with a few minutes casting mending, and it can use an action to repair itself) If need be a battle smith can revive their steel defender up to 3 times per day at level 3, and the thing can also repair itself so they probably won't have to do so that often. The battle smith only gets one kind of steel defender but it can do a few kinds of things and has decent hp and AC for a pet creature.
Level 3 Alchemist: 6 options, roughly 1 hour of effect on average (if you like using swiftness). Level 3 Artillerist: 3 options, roughly 4 hours of effect if they use spell slots on nothing else. Battle Smith: 1 option (pretty useful), potentially indefinite effect freeing up spell slots for other tasks.
All of those things you mentioned are great potential uses of Experimental elixir. But at low levels you better hope you only need to use them on one or maybe two people or else have no other need for spell slots in a given day.
What the Alchemist gains in versatility over the other subclasses it loses in staying power. And honestly it really feels like they lose more than they gain. Especially at lower levels.
I agree, Artillerist is much better than the Alchemist, and so is the Battle Smith. Steel Defenders last infinitely longer than the cannon, does a bit less damage, but also makes the survivability of the whole group a lot better, with deflect attack, and eventually Battle Smith can add extra damage or health when they/SD hits with an attack. It works similar to a Divine Smite, but doesn't require a spell slot. Steel Defenders can also attune to magic items, and be shaped however you want them to be shaped.
Artillerists get a lot of blasting attacks, but don't help the party much other than that, but Steel Defenders protect and blast. In my mind, they're equal, but Battle Smiths are a bit cooler.
Don't forget, artillerists get most Wall spells, and can drop a turret that pulses temp HP, one turret that causes knockback. Yeah, they blast, but they can also control the field. I maintain that artillerist is not a blaster, but is an emplacement.
Once artillerists get Fortified Position at 15th level, their turrets also give 1/2 cover to all nearby allies. They provide some very good defensive options.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And how many spell slots does a half caster have at level 3? How long does each elixir last? And how many actions/people do they take to use? The fact that you can use spell slots to make elixirs not random is frankly really annoying for a feature that ought not to be random in the first place!
As an alchemist you have 6 options of elixirs to choose from. 1 is instantaneous, 1 lasts an hour, 1 lasts a minute, the other 3 last 10 minutes each. That's an average duration of 15.33 minutes per elixir used. Economy wise - that's roughly 1 hour of elixir effects per day at level 3 if the Alchemist uses their spell slots for nothing else. But honestly how often are you going to pick swiftness (which is worse than Longstrider since it only affects walking speed) before level 9 when it gets the bonus of temp hp? Excluding that one it's really 5 options with an average duration of 6.2 minutes per elixir. With all spell slots on elixirs that's just under 25 minutes of effect per day.
All of those things you mentioned are great potential uses of Experimental elixir. But at low levels you better hope you only need to use them on one or maybe two people or else have no other need for spell slots in a given day.
What the Alchemist gains in versatility over the other subclasses it loses in staying power. And honestly it really feels like they lose more than they gain. Especially at lower levels.
well, if the elixir was not random, it would essentially be an 1st level spell slot for free every long rest, that just feels weird, but then again maybe it is fair for the alchemist to choose its option since that is what the artillerist also gets, huh, maybe they should be able to choose their elixir
also, i dont really see why it would be a problem to be left without spell slots for a while, you are a half caster, casting is only half the fun after all and when you have given your allies a lil boost you can start to blast your enemies with cantrips and/or magical muskets with infinite ammunition
also who cares if the effects dont last for long, there are plenty of spells that do not last for verry long that are still worth casting eh? these elixirs are just spells that take an extra action for the recipient to cast, thats all, as long as there is even the smallest amount of prep period available your friends can chug one of your potions before leaping into battle, and honestly these things comming in potion format is mostly an advantage, it means that you do not have to actiually be there when the spell is cast, and also it completely lacks verbal and somatic components, you can just make a potion, give it to one of your allies as you split the party and they can benefit from your generous gift a few hours later when they need healing or they need a bit of an discrete speed buff or they need to go underwater, as long as they happen to have the right potion, since these things last forever you might argue that you have more staying power than your allies, especially if you multiclass into tombelock, pick aspect of the moon and never sleep ever again.
also experimental elixir is not the only thing you get, you also get an way way way more reliable version of arcane firearm that also works on healing potions with the only slight drawback being that you must use alchemist suplies, and that is honestly not a problem since you can still benefit from an staff or wands magic bonuses to attack rolls without having to use them as the focus
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Well the elixirs are definitely a problem, action economy wise, even with the temporary hitpoints at later levels. But the level 5 feature that lets you add INT to healing and acid/poison/fire/necrotic damage is really good. I've found that healing word for 11-14 (rolled stats, got 18 with racial, so by level 5 I have a 20 in INT) as a bonus action is really handy. Especially if you cast it a little early (like at half health) to give them a little safety boost in case of a stray crit or whatever.
The level 9 feature is handy. In my opinion the best part are the free lesser restorations, giving you and any other divine spellcaster a free spell to not prepare. The temporary hitpoints is handy, but it still has the same awkward action economy as before since its tied to the potions. The level 14 feature is just... really nice. A free Heal and Greater Restoration (without components) is just really useful.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Alchemist just gets a lot of free stuff, but it suffers from an awkward action economy of potions mid-combat.
Well the elixirs are definitely a problem, action economy wise, even with the temporary hitpoints at later levels. But the level 5 feature that lets you add INT to healing and acid/poison/fire/necrotic damage is really good. I've found that healing word for 11-14 (rolled stats, got 18 with racial, so by level 5 I have a 20 in INT) as a bonus action is really handy. Especially if you cast it a little early (like at half health) to give them a little safety boost in case of a stray crit or whatever.
The level 9 feature is handy. In my opinion the best part are the free lesser restorations, giving you and any other divine spellcaster a free spell to not prepare. The temporary hitpoints is handy, but it still has the same awkward action economy as before since its tied to the potions. The level 14 feature is just... really nice. A free Heal and Greater Restoration (without components) is just really useful.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Alchemist just gets a lot of free stuff, but it suffers from an awkward action economy of potions mid-combat.
yeah, two actions for a spell is not good, but hey at least i can cast it in silence and you are probably supposed to plan ahead and make potions before combat so that mid combat they will only be a single action to use. Yeah empowered healing makes healing word much better since now it is now between average 12.5 and average 14.5, lesser restoration is the kind of spell that you dont need until you need it and the 15th level feature lets you cast 5th and 6th level spells at a level were most (lesser) artificers are only able to cast 4th level spells
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The alchemist being terrible is more hyperbole than fact in my experience. The elixir's give a versatility the other options do not have and that subclass offers more healing.
@Unclevertitle
And how many spell slots does a half caster have at level 3? -- 3 but this one has 4 because of the random freebie. The advantage the alchemist has over other artificers is the variety each of the spell slots can provide as needed.
How long does each elixir last? -- Much longer than a single battle for most of them. The instantaneous one is healing and done after the battle unless it's an emergency.
And how many actions/people do they take to use? -- Those elixirs are usually used before encounters in preparation for said encounter. The number of actions outside of combat is meaningless.
The fact that you can use spell slots to make elixirs not random is frankly really annoying for a feature that ought not to be random in the first place! -- It's free. It does not matter which random elixir is generated either because they are all useful most of the time.
But honestly how often are you going to pick swiftness (which is worse than Longstrider since it only affects walking speed) before level 9 when it gets the bonus of temp hp? -- How many characters are using speeds other than walking speeds most of the time, lol? The elixir doesn't need the overnight rest and preparation the spell does. The alchemist would never need to prepare Longstrider while an artillerist or battle smith would for similar benefit. That actually opens up a larger list of 1st level spells available to the alchemist if we're making that comparison.
Compare that to how many times can the Artillerist can summon their cannon? How long does it last each time? How many actions does it take to use in combat? -- Yes, the cannon is useful in combat. It's not exactly helpful outside of combat like the elixirs are. It's not like the cannon let's the artillerist fly or breathe underwater. The elixirs are also useful in combat with the specific advantage of stacking a buff that does not need concentration.
The averaging out durations is a GIGO metric. Who are you trying to kid there, lol? The alchemist went more variety and it did cost them in some respects. A cannon clearly lasts longer (unless it dies, of course) and is useful in combat but not really anything else.
Alchemists play better than they look. The alchemist does not have the bonus action tied up in the subclass features so can be built to use that bonus action for an obvious advantage. As mentioned, the elixirs do not require concentration so the alchemist can provide simultaneous effects like faerie fire and boldness. Costly to do it a lot but that's a trade off for being able to do it in the first place. Boldness stacks with bless. A party that coordinates the two have an average of +5 to hit and to save for an important encounter, which is some huge synergy. A person needs to remember that boldness is good for offsetting GWM and SS attack penalties, or disadvantage, even without bless.
The problem with Alchemist's potions being an action to drink makes them absolutely terrible options during combat under anything but extremely rare situations. Most combats don't last more than 3 rounds - so is a party member really going to sacrifice one of their 3 turns to drink a potion? Unlikely. Combine that with the fact that you won't always get to prepare for a fight and they look less and less helpful.
If you can prepare before a fight - then sure - the Alchemist is pretty good.
No. The release Alchemist in Eberron Rising is absolutely godawful. It is a strict and severe downgrade to the 2019 UA, and anyone who honestly believes that sinking every spell slot they have into minor buffs uncompetitive with most typical first-level spells they're replacing in return for the ability to do ****-all anywhere or anywhen else is either playing a very weird game of D&D or just doesn't care about being useful more'n once or twice a day.
As someone who really enjoyed the 2019 UA Alchemist, the Rising "update" destroyed that character. Had to switch the wreckage to Battlesmith and do a month and a have of reconstructive surgery to get her remotely ready to continue her games, and even then she lost too much in the switchover. It was awful and completely unnecessary, and the awful part is that DDB has forbidden anyone to fix it. You can't homebrew the old 2019 UA anymore, or even just try and patch up the existing Rising Suckhemist, or they take down your efforts and inform you it's against ToS to 'plagiarize' official Wizards content that way.
God, it's just absolutely miserable. I really miss the right and proper version of Ana...
As as well ask this here, because I see no reason why it wouldn’t: does an artillerist’s cannon have a time limit for how long it can be used? Like can you summon it in the morning and keep it on you for days at a time? Because having to burn through spell slots all day to keep making them could be a point in the battle smith’s favor.
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I really enjoy the battlesmith. However, I wished the other two subclasses were a little more viable haha.
I feel that the artillerist is alright, but it doesnt keep up with the extra attack + attack with INT using ranged/ melee weapons+ shield spell capabilities + Steel defender that can impose disadvantage and deal damage while being able to attack on a bonus action skills of the battle smith. the bonus to AC and half cover is great, but i dunno its a really "static" bonus in my opinion...
The alchemist also seems like a class that is aggresively below mediocre at higher levels.
Artillerist scales just fine. Arcane Firearm gives +1d8 to any spell cast through it, the Firearm can also be your Enhanced Focus infusion (scaling the +hit of it). Your Eldritch Cannon is 2d8, bumping up to 3d8 at lvl 9, and then at 15 you can drop two Cannons and fire em both at once.
Also, the cantrips cast naturally scale up every 5ish levels as well.
I have no experience with the Alchemist since it doesn't interest me, so I'll leave that to others to chime in on.
At "Higher levels" two attacks from a battlesmith will average at 1d8+5 per weapon hit, which is overall (more or less) equivalent to a 2d8 strike. 4d8 from a Battlesmith's basic Extra Attack action. You can get a bit more by using a big two-handed weapon, but that's going to be pretty rare from what I've seen. Most everybody goes for sword/board variations, so 1d8+5 per strike. One can add an extra effective d8 from a +2 weapon, since the Battlesmith can obtain a +2 without much issue, so 2d8+14 overall damage. 23 per round, discounting other shit. before then you get 2d8+12 assuming max Intelligence and a +1, so 21.
The Artillerist will be attacking with Fire Bolt 95% of the time as their combat cantrip of choice, so 1d10/5.5 per 'stage' of the bolt. At fifth level where extra attack comes in, Fire Bolt + Arcane Firearm is 2d10+1d8, which averages out to ~15. Noticeably lower, but also better on a crit. At 11th level, when the Battlesmith is still averaging 23 a round, the Artillerist goes to 3d10+1d8, which averages to 21. Still slightly behind a +2 Battlesmith, but the Artillerist does it from 120 feet and its damage is irrespective of a maxed-out Intelligence or not, and the Artillerist's crit advantage is only getting higher.
At 17th level, the Artillerist goes up to 26.5; its 4d10+1d8 Fire Bolt blows away even a +2 weapon dual attack from a Battlesmith, and any crits that five-dice Firebolt lands are going to be scary. In terms of basic offense, the Artillerist starts out slightly behind but comes out ahead; its cannon easily outperforms the Defender in terms of damage unless the Battlesmith burns every Arcane Jolt it has on one fight.
In terms of other class features, the Artillerist holds up fine. Overall, the Artillerist is perfectly serviceable; I've had cause to pine wistfully for the strength and safety of a 120-foot Arcane Blaster'd Firebolt whilst trying to deal with my Battlesmith's crappy javelin combat.
The Alchemist...is awful. But that's not the Battlesmith's fault, that's Wizards overeacting like assbutts to people giving the 2019 UA Alchemist lip on the Homunculus issue.
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Battle Smith and Artillerist are better than the Alchemist, but I'd say that Battle Smiths and Artillerists are about equal, both in flavor and abilities.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Have you given the crossbow Battle Smith any thought? Using a heavy crossbow with repeating weapon if you do not take crossbow expert, SSI with web or another utility spell to save slots for smites, arcane jolts, sharpshooter, and steel defender setting up to give advantage for your shooting atleast in theory could give a Battle Smith respectable damage output as well as the safety of 100/400 range to compare with the artillerist. I know the Artillerist still provides more consistent damage in a prolonged fight but its atleast another option for ranged artificer combat if these mechanics all work together like I believe they do, haven't had the chance myself to play one but i've obviously been brewing.
i feel all of the subclasses are really potent, especially the alchemist, you mean to tell me i can, with an 1st level spell slot, cast alter self, and have it affect somebody else? and i get to stack swiftness with longstrider? and i also get to achive flight with an first level spell slot? and none of these fantastic elixirs require concentration? you also mean to tell me i can heal 1d8 plus twice my int unlike the plebian that is the cleric, and add int to my fire damage, and poison damage, and acid damage, and necrotic damage? aso wands give their bonus to attack rolls regardles of if you use them as your focus or not, so one can still use alchemical savant with an enhanced arcane focus
and also, i get to give a bunch of temp hp to everyone who drinks my fantastic little potions? hell yeah! and with the 15th level feature, i, an mere half caster in world full of full casters, can cast an mighty 6th level spell, an feat no other half caster can even hope to achive without multiclassing, that is something indeed special, perhaps not with other casters in the party but it is indeed incredeble, and at 15th level you should normally not even have 5th level spells, and yet you can cast greater restoration, and you can do all of that without the super expensive components normally associated with greater restoration or even having it prepared, and you get all of that plus two resistances and an condition immunity
the arcane firearm might also seem weak, at least it does untill you realize you can turn an staff of the archmagi you found in the dungeon into a straight up gun and shoot people. and the artillerist also straight up out-does the battle smith in per-turn damage, 2d8 is far better than 1d8 + 2
the artillerist i feel is more if you want to combine the musket with repeating shot and just gun murder everyone, or if you plan to use a lot of constructs in your battle plan with tiny servant, golems and humonculi on your side whomst your steel defender can heal, while also being a pretty decent tank
all three of these subclasses really hone in on one aspect of the artificer, the martial aspect, the offensive spellcasting aspect and the support aspect, as you might notice i like one of these subclasses a little bit more, but all of them are pretty fine choices
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
like, you guys seem to be forgetting both that you can expend spell slots to create new experimental elixirs and choose what elixirs you create, and that you are simply part of an party, with the power of all your class and subclass abillities you can take this almost parental role in the party, where you make peoples strengths stronger and cover their weaknesses. Oh, we have a monk in our party? here, have this potion that gives you magic 1d6 unarmed strikes with +1 to attack and damage. Oh, we need to go underwater? Here, an experimental elixir can fix that (alter self). Need to cross a wide chasm or ravine, perhaps even reach the top of an tower but nobody can fly? buoyancy potion, slow but effective. Oh, people are getting hurt, well time to use my spell slots for healing. We have an person in the party who is making a speed based build? well how about we give em some more, that potion also stacks with longstrider! is somebody ether lagging behind in ac or making a high AC build? resilience potion gives a little bit more ac, do we want to disguise ourselves but think that the disguise kit is not enough? once again you can make what is basically polyjuice potions for first level spell slots that allows for essentially biological changes to the body, someone is lagging behind in accuracy or saves? potion of boldness. As you gain levels, you become at 5th level as competent in casting fire bolt as an 10th level evocation wizard as well as letting you estore more hit points, at 9th level your potions become even slightly better and now it might actually be worth it to spend even second level spell slots on them if percived as nessesary, and as for the 15th level milestone it is great and also as you go along in artificer level you gain even more ways to support your party, is one of your party members feeling worried going into an encounter with an red dragon? here, let me borrow your armor and make a few adjustments to make you more fireproof using the resistant armor infusion, or here, allow me to fix something up and give you my int bonus to an ability check or an saving throw, with 11th level spell storing item one can temporarily gift the abillity to cast certain spells to your party, allowing you to let the fighter or the palladin or whatever cast warding bond or something, once more letting you adapt to more situations and letting you even out some of the flaws in your party members. Yes every other artificer gets spell storing item and flash of genius, but i feel like the thing that makes alchemist special is how it embraces the supportive role of the artificer, perhaps not the most exiting role to play yet also an important one, that allows for a lot of good roleplaying opportunities and oh god this became a rather long, ranting post.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Artillerist works a bit differently but ends up being pretty much the same: use your action to fire a spell thought your wand (and it gets buffed by 1d8 at level 5) and then fire your cannon as a bonus action (witch deals 2d8-3d8) the cannon is also more sturdy than the defender if you make it a moveable gun and Untargatible if you make it tiny and turn it into a magic handgun.
The cannon is also more multi functional letting you deal AOE damage, make attack rolls or give temp hit points as a bonus action, so artificers deals at max about 2d6(could say 1d12 but 2d6 scales better) +intelligence twice and 1d8+2 to 6 damage per round, let's say its end game and the artificer used a smite spell last turn at highest level and a arcane jolt 60 ish damage in one turn
Artillerist will LETS say cast cone of cold witch gets buffed by 1d8 so 9d8 cold damage and a cinch save and you can have 2 guns at level 15 so another 6d8 as a spell attack or dex save 50 ish on there own not including using like wall of fire witch can also have its damage buffed by 1d8 or a cantrip like fire bolt doing 4d10+1d8 or toll of the dead as 4d12+1d8 you can also have the guns explode for 3d8 damage each and just re summon them for free where it takes a spell slot to bring the stell defender back from 0 witch in the early game is costly.
So no battle Smith does not scale better then the other subclasses
And how many spell slots does a half caster have at level 3? How long does each elixir last? And how many actions/people do they take to use?
The fact that you can use spell slots to make elixirs not random is frankly really annoying for a feature that ought not to be random in the first place!
As an alchemist you have 6 options of elixirs to choose from. 1 is instantaneous, 1 lasts an hour, 1 lasts a minute, the other 3 last 10 minutes each.
That's an average duration of 15.33 minutes per elixir used. Economy wise - that's roughly 1 hour of elixir effects per day at level 3 if the Alchemist uses their spell slots for nothing else.
But honestly how often are you going to pick swiftness (which is worse than Longstrider since it only affects walking speed) before level 9 when it gets the bonus of temp hp?
Excluding that one it's really 5 options with an average duration of 6.2 minutes per elixir. With all spell slots on elixirs that's just under 25 minutes of effect per day.
Compare that to how many times can the Artillerist can summon their cannon? How long does it last each time? How many actions does it take to use in combat?
At level 3 an Artillerist has up to 1 hour free and potentially 3 hours more of Eldritch cannon. Choice-wise the Artillerist gets 3 types of cannon to choose from.
And compare that to how many times per day can the battle smith revive their steel defender from 0 hit points? (Ignoring that they can heal it for free with a few minutes casting mending, and it can use an action to repair itself)
If need be a battle smith can revive their steel defender up to 3 times per day at level 3, and the thing can also repair itself so they probably won't have to do so that often.
The battle smith only gets one kind of steel defender but it can do a few kinds of things and has decent hp and AC for a pet creature.
Level 3 Alchemist: 6 options, roughly 1 hour of effect on average (if you like using swiftness).
Level 3 Artillerist: 3 options, roughly 4 hours of effect if they use spell slots on nothing else.
Battle Smith: 1 option (pretty useful), potentially indefinite effect freeing up spell slots for other tasks.
All of those things you mentioned are great potential uses of Experimental elixir. But at low levels you better hope you only need to use them on one or maybe two people or else have no other need for spell slots in a given day.
What the Alchemist gains in versatility over the other subclasses it loses in staying power. And honestly it really feels like they lose more than they gain. Especially at lower levels.
I agree, Artillerist is much better than the Alchemist, and so is the Battle Smith. Steel Defenders last infinitely longer than the cannon, does a bit less damage, but also makes the survivability of the whole group a lot better, with deflect attack, and eventually Battle Smith can add extra damage or health when they/SD hits with an attack. It works similar to a Divine Smite, but doesn't require a spell slot. Steel Defenders can also attune to magic items, and be shaped however you want them to be shaped.
Artillerists get a lot of blasting attacks, but don't help the party much other than that, but Steel Defenders protect and blast. In my mind, they're equal, but Battle Smiths are a bit cooler.
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Don't forget, artillerists get most Wall spells, and can drop a turret that pulses temp HP, one turret that causes knockback. Yeah, they blast, but they can also control the field. I maintain that artillerist is not a blaster, but is an emplacement.
Once artillerists get Fortified Position at 15th level, their turrets also give 1/2 cover to all nearby allies. They provide some very good defensive options.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
well, if the elixir was not random, it would essentially be an 1st level spell slot for free every long rest, that just feels weird, but then again maybe it is fair for the alchemist to choose its option since that is what the artillerist also gets, huh, maybe they should be able to choose their elixir
also, i dont really see why it would be a problem to be left without spell slots for a while, you are a half caster, casting is only half the fun after all and when you have given your allies a lil boost you can start to blast your enemies with cantrips and/or magical muskets with infinite ammunition
also who cares if the effects dont last for long, there are plenty of spells that do not last for verry long that are still worth casting eh? these elixirs are just spells that take an extra action for the recipient to cast, thats all, as long as there is even the smallest amount of prep period available your friends can chug one of your potions before leaping into battle, and honestly these things comming in potion format is mostly an advantage, it means that you do not have to actiually be there when the spell is cast, and also it completely lacks verbal and somatic components, you can just make a potion, give it to one of your allies as you split the party and they can benefit from your generous gift a few hours later when they need healing or they need a bit of an discrete speed buff or they need to go underwater, as long as they happen to have the right potion, since these things last forever you might argue that you have more staying power than your allies, especially if you multiclass into tombelock, pick aspect of the moon and never sleep ever again.
also experimental elixir is not the only thing you get, you also get an way way way more reliable version of arcane firearm that also works on healing potions with the only slight drawback being that you must use alchemist suplies, and that is honestly not a problem since you can still benefit from an staff or wands magic bonuses to attack rolls without having to use them as the focus
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Well the elixirs are definitely a problem, action economy wise, even with the temporary hitpoints at later levels. But the level 5 feature that lets you add INT to healing and acid/poison/fire/necrotic damage is really good. I've found that healing word for 11-14 (rolled stats, got 18 with racial, so by level 5 I have a 20 in INT) as a bonus action is really handy. Especially if you cast it a little early (like at half health) to give them a little safety boost in case of a stray crit or whatever.
The level 9 feature is handy. In my opinion the best part are the free lesser restorations, giving you and any other divine spellcaster a free spell to not prepare. The temporary hitpoints is handy, but it still has the same awkward action economy as before since its tied to the potions. The level 14 feature is just... really nice. A free Heal and Greater Restoration (without components) is just really useful.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Alchemist just gets a lot of free stuff, but it suffers from an awkward action economy of potions mid-combat.
yeah, two actions for a spell is not good, but hey at least i can cast it in silence and you are probably supposed to plan ahead and make potions before combat so that mid combat they will only be a single action to use. Yeah empowered healing makes healing word much better since now it is now between average 12.5 and average 14.5, lesser restoration is the kind of spell that you dont need until you need it and the 15th level feature lets you cast 5th and 6th level spells at a level were most (lesser) artificers are only able to cast 4th level spells
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The alchemist being terrible is more hyperbole than fact in my experience. The elixir's give a versatility the other options do not have and that subclass offers more healing.
@Unclevertitle
And how many spell slots does a half caster have at level 3? -- 3 but this one has 4 because of the random freebie. The advantage the alchemist has over other artificers is the variety each of the spell slots can provide as needed.
How long does each elixir last? -- Much longer than a single battle for most of them. The instantaneous one is healing and done after the battle unless it's an emergency.
And how many actions/people do they take to use? -- Those elixirs are usually used before encounters in preparation for said encounter. The number of actions outside of combat is meaningless.
The fact that you can use spell slots to make elixirs not random is frankly really annoying for a feature that ought not to be random in the first place! -- It's free. It does not matter which random elixir is generated either because they are all useful most of the time.
But honestly how often are you going to pick swiftness (which is worse than Longstrider since it only affects walking speed) before level 9 when it gets the bonus of temp hp? -- How many characters are using speeds other than walking speeds most of the time, lol? The elixir doesn't need the overnight rest and preparation the spell does. The alchemist would never need to prepare Longstrider while an artillerist or battle smith would for similar benefit. That actually opens up a larger list of 1st level spells available to the alchemist if we're making that comparison.
Compare that to how many times can the Artillerist can summon their cannon? How long does it last each time? How many actions does it take to use in combat? -- Yes, the cannon is useful in combat. It's not exactly helpful outside of combat like the elixirs are. It's not like the cannon let's the artillerist fly or breathe underwater. The elixirs are also useful in combat with the specific advantage of stacking a buff that does not need concentration.
The averaging out durations is a GIGO metric. Who are you trying to kid there, lol? The alchemist went more variety and it did cost them in some respects. A cannon clearly lasts longer (unless it dies, of course) and is useful in combat but not really anything else.
Alchemists play better than they look. The alchemist does not have the bonus action tied up in the subclass features so can be built to use that bonus action for an obvious advantage. As mentioned, the elixirs do not require concentration so the alchemist can provide simultaneous effects like faerie fire and boldness. Costly to do it a lot but that's a trade off for being able to do it in the first place. Boldness stacks with bless. A party that coordinates the two have an average of +5 to hit and to save for an important encounter, which is some huge synergy. A person needs to remember that boldness is good for offsetting GWM and SS attack penalties, or disadvantage, even without bless.
The problem with Alchemist's potions being an action to drink makes them absolutely terrible options during combat under anything but extremely rare situations. Most combats don't last more than 3 rounds - so is a party member really going to sacrifice one of their 3 turns to drink a potion? Unlikely. Combine that with the fact that you won't always get to prepare for a fight and they look less and less helpful.
If you can prepare before a fight - then sure - the Alchemist is pretty good.
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No. The release Alchemist in Eberron Rising is absolutely godawful. It is a strict and severe downgrade to the 2019 UA, and anyone who honestly believes that sinking every spell slot they have into minor buffs uncompetitive with most typical first-level spells they're replacing in return for the ability to do ****-all anywhere or anywhen else is either playing a very weird game of D&D or just doesn't care about being useful more'n once or twice a day.
As someone who really enjoyed the 2019 UA Alchemist, the Rising "update" destroyed that character. Had to switch the wreckage to Battlesmith and do a month and a have of reconstructive surgery to get her remotely ready to continue her games, and even then she lost too much in the switchover. It was awful and completely unnecessary, and the awful part is that DDB has forbidden anyone to fix it. You can't homebrew the old 2019 UA anymore, or even just try and patch up the existing Rising Suckhemist, or they take down your efforts and inform you it's against ToS to 'plagiarize' official Wizards content that way.
God, it's just absolutely miserable. I really miss the right and proper version of Ana...
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As as well ask this here, because I see no reason why it wouldn’t: does an artillerist’s cannon have a time limit for how long it can be used? Like can you summon it in the morning and keep it on you for days at a time? Because having to burn through spell slots all day to keep making them could be a point in the battle smith’s favor.