The warforged's Integrated Protection feature states that a warforged takes 1 hour to don/doff armour. Meanwhile, the armourer's Arcane Armour feature states that it can be donned/doffed with just an action. Now, obviously the initial donning of armour takes an hour.
However, what about the arcane armour? Personally, I like the idea that the armour can be retracted as an action (it could be like late mcu Iron Man's armour collapsing into his reactor/clothing). Though maybe it could still take an hour to actually take it off to sell/give away. I like the idea of mixing the rules, but I could also see one or the other being the one rule to apply. What do you guys think?
Arcane Armor seems more specific to me, so one round.
There is just as much argument that the War Forged ability takes precedence instead. Like he said there is no clear hierarchy. It's kind of a niche interaction issue and both of them are special rules modifying the same thing. Some also consider classes more over arching and general than race features. REally it's up to the DM but the truth of the matter in most situations is. It doesn't really matter since the War Forged does not usually have to take their armor off or put it on to begin with. It doesn't affect their ability to "sleep" like other races have. So the only time you need to do it is when your going to change your armor. This often tends to be done with in a period with some downtime attached. Sometimes that downtime will more than cover it regardless.
Keep in mind heat metal spell would be a situation which one action or one hour is a big diference.
Except that Heat Metal has a bigger potential interaction with war forged that has never been and I am thinking likely never will be addressed. Technically it could potentially be used on parts of war forged that are metal that cannot be removed.
Keep in mind heat metal spell would be a situation which one action or one hour is a big diference.
Except that Heat Metal has a bigger potential interaction with war forged that has never been and I am thinking likely never will be addressed. Technically it could potentially be used on parts of war forged that are metal that cannot be removed.
Any metal part of a warforged which can't be removed is part of a creature, not an object in its own right.
Keep in mind heat metal spell would be a situation which one action or one hour is a big diference.
Except that Heat Metal has a bigger potential interaction with war forged that has never been and I am thinking likely never will be addressed. Technically it could potentially be used on parts of war forged that are metal that cannot be removed.
Any metal part of a warforged which can't be removed is part of a creature, not an object in its own right.
by that argument. The armor once integrated would also be part of the warforged and thus not targetable in it's own right. It's kind of an all or nothing situation. When you put it on as a warforge you take an hour making it part of your body. And when you take it off you take an hour removing it from being part of your body.
This was part of my point. And the answer is still a somewhat ambiguous one. Because there is nothing about the Heat Metal Spell that doesn't say it can't target creatures if they are at least part or perhaps all made of manufactured metal parts. Which being golem like creatures means that War forged as included in this middle ground where manufactured metal objects and creature kind of overlap.
Keep in mind heat metal spell would be a situation which one action or one hour is a big diference.
Except that Heat Metal has a bigger potential interaction with war forged that has never been and I am thinking likely never will be addressed. Technically it could potentially be used on parts of war forged that are metal that cannot be removed.
Any metal part of a warforged which can't be removed is part of a creature, not an object in its own right.
by that argument. The armor once integrated would also be part of the warforged and thus not targetable in it's own right. It's kind of an all or nothing situation. When you put it on as a warforge you take an hour making it part of your body. And when you take it off you take an hour removing it from being part of your body.
This was part of my point. And the answer is still a somewhat ambiguous one. Because there is nothing about the Heat Metal Spell that doesn't say it can't target creatures if they are at least part or perhaps all made of manufactured metal parts. Which being golem like creatures means that War forged as included in this middle ground where manufactured metal objects and creature kind of overlap.
But we go back to the first question would armorer override the warforged integrated feat ?
i would honestly call it that my software was upgraded and with the arcane runes inscribed on the armor the don off integrations is update and is an action.
Keep in mind heat metal spell would be a situation which one action or one hour is a big diference.
Except that Heat Metal has a bigger potential interaction with war forged that has never been and I am thinking likely never will be addressed. Technically it could potentially be used on parts of war forged that are metal that cannot be removed.
Any metal part of a warforged which can't be removed is part of a creature, not an object in its own right.
by that argument. The armor once integrated would also be part of the warforged and thus not targetable in it's own right. It's kind of an all or nothing situation. When you put it on as a warforge you take an hour making it part of your body. And when you take it off you take an hour removing it from being part of your body.
This was part of my point. And the answer is still a somewhat ambiguous one. Because there is nothing about the Heat Metal Spell that doesn't say it can't target creatures if they are at least part or perhaps all made of manufactured metal parts. Which being golem like creatures means that War forged as included in this middle ground where manufactured metal objects and creature kind of overlap.
But we go back to the first question would armorer override the warforged integrated feat ?
i would honestly call it that my software was upgraded and with the arcane runes inscribed on the armor the don off integrations is update and is an action.
You could. But the reality is that We're right back to the situation that in most situations it really does not matter. War Forged don't have any real need to take the armor off and most situations where it would be taken on or off don't really matter and are glossed over. So the ability of the Armorer is basically entirely moot. And the ultimate decision is homebrew and individual to each table.
Keep in mind heat metal spell would be a situation which one action or one hour is a big diference.
Except that Heat Metal has a bigger potential interaction with war forged that has never been and I am thinking likely never will be addressed. Technically it could potentially be used on parts of war forged that are metal that cannot be removed.
Any metal part of a warforged which can't be removed is part of a creature, not an object in its own right.
by that argument. The armor once integrated would also be part of the warforged and thus not targetable in it's own right. It's kind of an all or nothing situation. When you put it on as a warforge you take an hour making it part of your body. And when you take it off you take an hour removing it from being part of your body.
This was part of my point. And the answer is still a somewhat ambiguous one. Because there is nothing about the Heat Metal Spell that doesn't say it can't target creatures if they are at least part or perhaps all made of manufactured metal parts. Which being golem like creatures means that War forged as included in this middle ground where manufactured metal objects and creature kind of overlap.
Incorrect. The armor is still a worn object, Integrated Protection does not say anything about it being otherwise, just that it can't be removed against your will as long as you're alive. An Armblade is also a valid target for the spell.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Keep in mind heat metal spell would be a situation which one action or one hour is a big diference.
Except that Heat Metal has a bigger potential interaction with war forged that has never been and I am thinking likely never will be addressed. Technically it could potentially be used on parts of war forged that are metal that cannot be removed.
Any metal part of a warforged which can't be removed is part of a creature, not an object in its own right.
by that argument. The armor once integrated would also be part of the warforged and thus not targetable in it's own right. It's kind of an all or nothing situation. When you put it on as a warforge you take an hour making it part of your body. And when you take it off you take an hour removing it from being part of your body.
This was part of my point. And the answer is still a somewhat ambiguous one. Because there is nothing about the Heat Metal Spell that doesn't say it can't target creatures if they are at least part or perhaps all made of manufactured metal parts. Which being golem like creatures means that War forged as included in this middle ground where manufactured metal objects and creature kind of overlap.
Incorrect. The armor is still a worn object, Integrated Protection does not say anything about it being otherwise, just that it can't be removed against your will as long as you're alive. An Armblade is also a valid target for the spell.
The word integrate is actually what says it is something other than an individual targetable item actually.
Integrate's definition is "combine (one thing) with another so that they become a whole." This means that once it is integrated. it is as part of the WarForged as a Tabaxi's Claws or a Loxodon's tusks.
So either your incorrect.
Or the War Forged in general is targettable. An Arm Blade is not an integrated piece In the final Product. It was only a UA version that had something like that. And in the case of that UA version it was made clear such a weapon or two was entirely a piece of the Warforged that possessed the Weapon or Tool that was part of them because of one of their racial features.
The title of an ability is not the rules for how it works.
Except that the word Intigrated is used directly in the mechanics of the ability. So I'm not basing it on the ability name but what the ability does.
I'm going to fly my pedant flag for a second, but, no, it isn't. "Incorporated" is used, instead.
Both override the general rule on donning and doffing armor, neither is more specific than the other, and they are expressly contradictory. The only inkling we have that Arcane Armor's time might override Integrated Protection's is the former is acquired after the latter. But this isn't a CCG like M:TG or YGO. There's no "stack" where we resolve the most recent feature first.
I would rule that an object is still an object unless the feature specifically says it is now considered to be native part of the creature. "Integrated" is flavor text; the description of the "Integrated Protection" feature does not explicitly say the armor object is no longer an object, just that armor cannot be removed without the Warforged's consent and that it takes an hour to doff. This is a game mechanic, not a nuanced legal document that requires lawyering. Additional examples where an object is "integrated", but are still targetable items are the Prosthetic Limb and Ersatz Eye.
Back to the OP subject: In my opinion, a Class feature supersedes a Racial feature. It takes a Warforged an hour to don/doff armor, it takes a non-Warforged 1-10 minutes to don and 1-5 minutes to doff. Arcane Armor changes that inherent mechanic to be just an action to don/doff. Therefore, Warforged Armorer only requires an action to don/doff armor instead of an hour.
The title of an ability is not the rules for how it works.
Except that the word Intigrated is used directly in the mechanics of the ability. So I'm not basing it on the ability name but what the ability does.
I'm going to fly my pedant flag for a second, but, no, it isn't. "Incorporated" is used, instead.
Both override the general rule on donning and doffing armor, neither is more specific than the other, and they are expressly contradictory. The only inkling we have that Arcane Armor's time might override Integrated Protection's is the former is acquired after the latter. But this isn't a CCG like M:TG or YGO. There's no "stack" where we resolve the most recent feature first.
And off the top of my head. "Incorporated" if you want to go with that word is "United in one body." Which still leads you into it using a word that means that it is part of the warforged and not a separate item until the war forged removes it. It is not just worn.
I would rule that an object is still an object unless the feature specifically says it is now considered to be native part of the creature. "Integrated" is flavor text; the description of the "Integrated Protection" feature does not explicitly say the armor object is no longer an object, just that armor cannot be removed without the Warforged's consent and that it takes an hour to doff. This is a game mechanic, not a nuanced legal document that requires lawyering. Additional examples where an object is "integrated", but are still targetable items are the Prosthetic Limb and Ersatz Eye.
Back to the OP subject: In my opinion, a Class feature supersedes a Racial feature. It takes a Warforged an hour to don/doff armor, it takes a non-Warforged 1-10 minutes to don and 1-5 minutes to doff. Arcane Armor changes that inherent mechanic to be just an action to don/doff. Therefore, Warforged Armorer only requires an action to don/doff armor instead of an hour.
That's exactly how it works. 5E rules do not work based on inference, abilities do what they say they do and no more.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The warforged's Integrated Protection feature states that a warforged takes 1 hour to don/doff armour. Meanwhile, the armourer's Arcane Armour feature states that it can be donned/doffed with just an action. Now, obviously the initial donning of armour takes an hour.
However, what about the arcane armour? Personally, I like the idea that the armour can be retracted as an action (it could be like late mcu Iron Man's armour collapsing into his reactor/clothing). Though maybe it could still take an hour to actually take it off to sell/give away. I like the idea of mixing the rules, but I could also see one or the other being the one rule to apply. What do you guys think?
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Arcane Armor overrides Integrated Protection.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Arcane Armor seems more specific to me, so one round.
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I also make maps.(That's a link)
There is just as much argument that the War Forged ability takes precedence instead. Like he said there is no clear hierarchy. It's kind of a niche interaction issue and both of them are special rules modifying the same thing. Some also consider classes more over arching and general than race features. REally it's up to the DM but the truth of the matter in most situations is. It doesn't really matter since the War Forged does not usually have to take their armor off or put it on to begin with. It doesn't affect their ability to "sleep" like other races have. So the only time you need to do it is when your going to change your armor. This often tends to be done with in a period with some downtime attached. Sometimes that downtime will more than cover it regardless.
Keep in mind heat metal spell would be a situation which one action or one hour is a big diference.
Except that Heat Metal has a bigger potential interaction with war forged that has never been and I am thinking likely never will be addressed. Technically it could potentially be used on parts of war forged that are metal that cannot be removed.
Any metal part of a warforged which can't be removed is part of a creature, not an object in its own right.
by that argument. The armor once integrated would also be part of the warforged and thus not targetable in it's own right. It's kind of an all or nothing situation. When you put it on as a warforge you take an hour making it part of your body. And when you take it off you take an hour removing it from being part of your body.
This was part of my point. And the answer is still a somewhat ambiguous one. Because there is nothing about the Heat Metal Spell that doesn't say it can't target creatures if they are at least part or perhaps all made of manufactured metal parts. Which being golem like creatures means that War forged as included in this middle ground where manufactured metal objects and creature kind of overlap.
But we go back to the first question would armorer override the warforged integrated feat ?
i would honestly call it that my software was upgraded and with the arcane runes inscribed on the armor the don off integrations is update and is an action.
You could. But the reality is that We're right back to the situation that in most situations it really does not matter. War Forged don't have any real need to take the armor off and most situations where it would be taken on or off don't really matter and are glossed over. So the ability of the Armorer is basically entirely moot. And the ultimate decision is homebrew and individual to each table.
Incorrect. The armor is still a worn object, Integrated Protection does not say anything about it being otherwise, just that it can't be removed against your will as long as you're alive. An Armblade is also a valid target for the spell.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The word integrate is actually what says it is something other than an individual targetable item actually.
Integrate's definition is "combine (one thing) with another so that they become a whole." This means that once it is integrated. it is as part of the WarForged as a Tabaxi's Claws or a Loxodon's tusks.
So either your incorrect.
Or the War Forged in general is targettable. An Arm Blade is not an integrated piece In the final Product. It was only a UA version that had something like that. And in the case of that UA version it was made clear such a weapon or two was entirely a piece of the Warforged that possessed the Weapon or Tool that was part of them because of one of their racial features.
The title of an ability is not the rules for how it works.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Except that the word Intigrated is used directly in the mechanics of the ability. So I'm not basing it on the ability name but what the ability does.
I'm going to fly my pedant flag for a second, but, no, it isn't. "Incorporated" is used, instead.
Both override the general rule on donning and doffing armor, neither is more specific than the other, and they are expressly contradictory. The only inkling we have that Arcane Armor's time might override Integrated Protection's is the former is acquired after the latter. But this isn't a CCG like M:TG or YGO. There's no "stack" where we resolve the most recent feature first.
I would rule that an object is still an object unless the feature specifically says it is now considered to be native part of the creature. "Integrated" is flavor text; the description of the "Integrated Protection" feature does not explicitly say the armor object is no longer an object, just that armor cannot be removed without the Warforged's consent and that it takes an hour to doff. This is a game mechanic, not a nuanced legal document that requires lawyering. Additional examples where an object is "integrated", but are still targetable items are the Prosthetic Limb and Ersatz Eye.
Back to the OP subject: In my opinion, a Class feature supersedes a Racial feature. It takes a Warforged an hour to don/doff armor, it takes a non-Warforged 1-10 minutes to don and 1-5 minutes to doff. Arcane Armor changes that inherent mechanic to be just an action to don/doff. Therefore, Warforged Armorer only requires an action to don/doff armor instead of an hour.
And off the top of my head. "Incorporated" if you want to go with that word is "United in one body." Which still leads you into it using a word that means that it is part of the warforged and not a separate item until the war forged removes it. It is not just worn.
That's exactly how it works. 5E rules do not work based on inference, abilities do what they say they do and no more.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Where does it say that arcane armor can be donned or doffed with an action? I’m having a hard time finding this.