I am sure many of you are aware of this homebrew and I am curious what are your thoughts on them? What do you feel is overpowered? Does this stretch what you envision the Steel Defender to be? As I am sure all people who play Artificer, your first thought on anything, especially the Steel Defender, is how can I make this better, because that is what an Artificer is in the end.
I honestly feel that Wizards fell very short on the implementation of the Steel Defender. Which leaves it 100% within the DMs purview of what homebrew would be let in. So I am speaking with my group/DM to see what is reasonable and I am curious what other experienced players may think on all this. I overall believe the Steel Defender can achieve at these two things reasonably, a) Defender/Guard/Bodyguard/Soldier and b) Assistant in Crafting. The second one depends in the INT lv, allowing it at least some area of being able to assist in the manner.
As for the implementation of the feature, I am rather on the fence with that. I do not believe going based off INT modifier is a bad idea, but you already get a good dose of upgrades at Lv 2 (Infusions) and now at Lv 3 you get another good dose of upgrades as well. Getting a Steel Defender and being able to just upgrade it 3 times immediately, just seems a bit much. Upgrading the Steel Defender, I feel should be done over a period of time for just one upgrade. Like over a week's (7 days) worth of long rests. This could also replace the limitation of only be able to replace an upgrade on the Steel Defender at when you level. Any thoughts on possible requiring materials (though this may be a bit difficult in general and possibly make it limiting)? Requiring Tools and being Prof in them?
So what are your thoughts? I will already state some of these upgrades are rather out there.
First thing's first, to fix your link, while editing your post you can use the link button (looks like a chain) to set the full link on a piece of text. I think when it comes to auto-detecting URLs the site doesn't like brackets and other symbols in the URL, which is why your link is broken.
To the homebrew itself; first thing to say is that INT upgrades as standard is definitely too many. The defender should just get a fixed number of upgrades (four?) as the Battle Smith levels up, probably starting around 6th level (so maybe 6th, 9th, 12th and 15th levels?) as we're talking about further improving an already good sub-class.
For a few specific upgrades:
Arcane Shielding: Resistance to all damage is quite powerful, so reset on long rest might make more sense, as short rest could allow this in a lot of fights depending upon how your group typically paces short rests.
Defensive Array: This is a little confusing as a bipedal defender doesn't really have access to anything that requires two-hands (so why would you ever not use the shield), and how would this interact with a four legged defender? It might make more sense to have this be a +2 to AC reaction that functions like the Shield spell? Basically gives you a way to turn a hit into a miss at the cost of the defender's reaction (so it's protecting itself rather than someone else). Or you could just make it basically the Shield spell, but with limited uses (once per short rest)?
Extra Attack: Unsure about including this; having a Steel Defender means you already effectively have three attacks at 5th level, at the very least this should come at a later level like 11th or so (when a Fighter gets their third basic attack)?
Flame Spout: Possibly another one that should reset on long rest, either that or be lower damage? 8d6 for a "free" area effect seems rather a lot without more of a limit.
Greater Runic Engravings/Runic Engravings: I'd maybe drop the greater version personally as it raises some possible issues (like a self Mending defender) and just give a selection of specific cantrips to choose from, possibly expanding at later levels if necessary? You also want to avoid SCAGtrips (Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade) as being able to have one of those on both your defender and yourself would be too much I think.
High Tension Springs: I'd just reword this as "The Steel Defender's speed increases by 10 feet", similar to a Monk's Unarmored Movement. If you want to clarify you could maybe make it "all movement speeds" or such? Just keeps it a bit simpler.
Improved Repertoire: A single skill seems like too little; I'd maybe make it two skills but no longer able to take it multiple times?
Clockwork Brain: Allowing infusions raises a lot of potential problems; armour infusions for example could be stacked with the other AC boosting upgrades which is probably too much, and even more utility based infusions raise issues like what happens if you give the defender a boosted ability score? I think you would need to either give a list of specific infusions that can be applied to it directly (eliminates item use questions) or maybe double down on the non-combat benefits, maybe give it proficiency in an INT skill?
Large Chassis: I'd drop this personally as it provides the same benefits as the Powerful Build upgrade, but with a bunch of extra HP and no real drawbacks. Large player characters are a minefield, which is why we don't officially have any.
Nimble Flight Control: Being immune to attacks of opportunity while flying may be a little much, I'd maybe give it Disengage as a reaction so there's some trade off?
Overdrive: Too exploitable I think with it being everything within reach for the turn (speed boost and increased reach could make this a huge number of attacks). I'd maybe limit it to the speed boost, an extra attack, and advantage on attacks, checks and saves?
Riding Harness: I think this should specify that it allows a medium sized defender to be used as a mount by a medium sized creature (the defender should be strong enough since it's mechanical/magical), as otherwise the large upgrade is required for most characters. I wouldn't bother with the "can force an attack to target itself" part since the defender already has the Deflect Attack ability. Also, I'm unclear what the mention of an exotic saddle is for?
Slight Frame: This seems like it could be a bit weak or situational so could maybe do with a slight boost. How about a bonus to Hide?
Spark of Intellect: Should probably reset on a long rest, as this is effectively giving the player expanded spellcasting.
Upgraded Build: An arbitrary ability score increase is problematic as it raises issues of any knock-on effects from the change such as Strength affecting attacks, Constitution affecting HP, effects on saves etc. it probably makes sense to have single specific upgrades for each ability score, and maybe limit them to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution, clarifying all the effects, e.g- Constitution to 16, CON save +3 + PB, +1 HP per level?
Sorry if it seems like I'm nit-picking a lot of this, but balancing lists of options is notoriously difficult and I mess it up all the time myself in my own homebrew, so I can't guarantee my suggestions are perfect. These are just my thoughts on them anyway, hope you find some of it useful!
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think there's precedent to this concept using the Armorer features... Armorer eventually gets extra infusions that can exclusively be used on their armor.
I think, then, that the best solution is to include wording in the Steel Defender that allows you to attach infusions to it, and include a few SD-specific infusions. I think the homebrew that got linked is a little too generous and complicated, but that's pretty much just what dandwiki is famous for. I'd say if you could treat the SD as though it was wearing armor and carrying a weapon, and allowing any existing infusions to be placed on it, that would cover it... I don't think it would make sense to make it as versatile as an armorer's armor (which is considered to be armor, boots, helmet, and weapon). At 9th level, then, I would swap the Arcane Jolt feature with the bonus 2 infusions that can only be placed on the Steel Defender. Maybe switch Arcane Jolt itself to being an infusion... that way it's balanced by the fact that it can only be given to yourself or to your Steel Defender, as opposed to being something you or the SD could do at-will.
I think there's precedent to this concept using the Armorer features... Armorer eventually gets extra infusions that can exclusively be used on their armor.
I think, then, that the best solution is to include wording in the Steel Defender that allows you to attach infusions to it, and include a few SD-specific infusions. I think the homebrew that got linked is a little too generous and complicated, but that's pretty much just what dandwiki is famous for. I'd say if you could treat the SD as though it was wearing armor and carrying a weapon, and allowing any existing infusions to be placed on it, that would cover it... I don't think it would make sense to make it as versatile as an armorer's armor (which is considered to be armor, boots, helmet, and weapon). At 9th level, then, I would swap the Arcane Jolt feature with the bonus 2 infusions that can only be placed on the Steel Defender. Maybe switch Arcane Jolt itself to being an infusion... that way it's balanced by the fact that it can only be given to yourself or to your Steel Defender, as opposed to being something you or the SD could do at-will.
I feel using the already limited resource of infusions to do work on the SD would be more harmful than good in the end, even with 2 added slots. So much more can be done and they can be simply "turned off", by other magic wielders or magic defenses. I do agree with you and Haravikk, that there should be either a slower progression or other form of giving "points" to spend on the SD. I see more you working/tinkering on the SD to make better, which is one huge aspect of the Artificer, instead of simply instilling magic into the SD.
I do also agree that some upgrades are very out there and just something that doesn't make sense to incorporate into the SD, but other things, like enhancing the armor, making it faster, possibly bigger, even smarter, is all something that makes sense in the tinkering mindset.
I do appreciate the feedback though, it has sparked a few ideas.
Well, here's another concept I've been considering for the steel defender ... You can modify a steel defender pretty thoroughly, but if your SD gets destroyed and you need to create a new one it's lost permanently. The battle Smith subclass already allows you to create a new steel defender for free after a long rest, or to use a spell slot to create a new one. So you can either treat your SD as a complexly customizable permanent ally, or as disposable canon fodder.
First thing's first, to fix your link, while editing your post you can use the link button (looks like a chain) to set the full link on a piece of text. I think when it comes to auto-detecting URLs the site doesn't like brackets and other symbols in the URL, which is why your link is broken.
To the homebrew itself; first thing to say is that INT upgrades as standard is definitely too many. The defender should just get a fixed number of upgrades (four?) as the Battle Smith levels up, probably starting around 6th level (so maybe 6th, 9th, 12th and 15th levels?) as we're talking about further improving an already good sub-class.
For a few specific upgrades:
Arcane Shielding: Resistance to all damage is quite powerful, so reset on long rest might make more sense, as short rest could allow this in a lot of fights depending upon how your group typically paces short rests.
Defensive Array: This is a little confusing as a bipedal defender doesn't really have access to anything that requires two-hands (so why would you ever not use the shield), and how would this interact with a four legged defender? It might make more sense to have this be a +2 to AC reaction that functions like the Shield spell? Basically gives you a way to turn a hit into a miss at the cost of the defender's reaction (so it's protecting itself rather than someone else). Or you could just make it basically the Shield spell, but with limited uses (once per short rest)?
Extra Attack: Unsure about including this; having a Steel Defender means you already effectively have three attacks at 5th level, at the very least this should come at a later level like 11th or so (when a Fighter gets their third basic attack)?
Flame Spout: Possibly another one that should reset on long rest, either that or be lower damage? 8d6 for a "free" area effect seems rather a lot without more of a limit.
Greater Runic Engravings/Runic Engravings: I'd maybe drop the greater version personally as it raises some possible issues (like a self Mending defender) and just give a selection of specific cantrips to choose from, possibly expanding at later levels if necessary? You also want to avoid SCAGtrips (Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade) as being able to have one of those on both your defender and yourself would be too much I think.
High Tension Springs: I'd just reword this as "The Steel Defender's speed increases by 10 feet", similar to a Monk's Unarmored Movement. If you want to clarify you could maybe make it "all movement speeds" or such? Just keeps it a bit simpler.
Improved Repertoire: A single skill seems like too little; I'd maybe make it two skills but no longer able to take it multiple times?
Clockwork Brain: Allowing infusions raises a lot of potential problems; armour infusions for example could be stacked with the other AC boosting upgrades which is probably too much, and even more utility based infusions raise issues like what happens if you give the defender a boosted ability score? I think you would need to either give a list of specific infusions that can be applied to it directly (eliminates item use questions) or maybe double down on the non-combat benefits, maybe give it proficiency in an INT skill?
Large Chassis: I'd drop this personally as it provides the same benefits as the Powerful Build upgrade, but with a bunch of extra HP and no real drawbacks. Large player characters are a minefield, which is why we don't officially have any.
Nimble Flight Control: Being immune to attacks of opportunity while flying may be a little much, I'd maybe give it Disengage as a reaction so there's some trade off?
Overdrive: Too exploitable I think with it being everything within reach for the turn (speed boost and increased reach could make this a huge number of attacks). I'd maybe limit it to the speed boost, an extra attack, and advantage on attacks, checks and saves?
Riding Harness: I think this should specify that it allows a medium sized defender to be used as a mount by a medium sized creature (the defender should be strong enough since it's mechanical/magical), as otherwise the large upgrade is required for most characters. I wouldn't bother with the "can force an attack to target itself" part since the defender already has the Deflect Attack ability. Also, I'm unclear what the mention of an exotic saddle is for?
Slight Frame: This seems like it could be a bit weak or situational so could maybe do with a slight boost. How about a bonus to Hide?
Spark of Intellect: Should probably reset on a long rest, as this is effectively giving the player expanded spellcasting.
Upgraded Build: Any kind of
Sorry if it seems like I'm nit-picking a lot of this, but balancing lists of options is notoriously difficult and I mess it up all the time myself in my own homebrew, so I can't guarantee my suggestions are perfect. These are just my thoughts on them anyway, hope you find some of it useful!
Your list seems to have cut off.
As for nit picking, this is a great list. Some of it, I wouldn't have even taken to begin with myself, like the harness for example. Though for me the INT boost ones, I get opens more doors than what I would really use it for, but you can simply limit that. As increase INT helps with better communication as well, better understanding, better memory, can operate a bit more beyond just a simple "dumb" bodyguard, so to speak.
As previously mentioned, I really see the SD as only a guard and a possible assistant in crafting. Overall, I see the Artificer seeing the SD as basically its best friend, loyal companion, etc. Why wouldn't the Artificer try to make it be, more, than just a simple minded construct that obeys. Jarvis is way smarter than Iron Man, and obeys all commands in the end and doesn't try to do anything that is outside its program or knows for a fact would cause damage to master or friends. That I believe is something achievable to a degree for the SD.
I agree with several of your points as well, so very appreciated for the post.
Well, here's another concept I've been considering for the steel defender ... You can modify a steel defender pretty thoroughly, but if your SD gets destroyed and you need to create a new one it's lost permanently. The battle Smith subclass already allows you to create a new steel defender for free after a long rest, or to use a spell slot to create a new one. So you can either treat your SD as a complexly customizable permanent ally, or as disposable canon fodder.
Interesting concept, though losing the SD is a huge aspect of the Battle Smith. However incomplete I believe the subclass is in that area, it would be missing a lot if the SD were to just poof, due to XYZ reason. I would say as a balance in this regard that, sure you can rebuild the SD, but the upgrades, and even when done the first time around, take time to install onto the SD. That way, yes, you invested into your SD, it is this beast of a construct, took months (just an example) to get it to this point. Poof. Well, not it takes you months ago to get to that point. So there is no "instant" recovery. Some cost beyond a simple long rest is being paid to achieve the goal of which you want to get to.
Whoops, I had trouble with the formatting of the post and must have missed that last item. Here's roughly what it should have said:
Upgraded Build: Any kind of arbitrary ability score increase is problematic as it raises issues of any knock-on effects from the change such as Strength affecting attacks, Constitution affecting HP, effects on saves etc. it probably makes sense to have single specific upgrades for each ability score, and maybe limit them to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution, clarifying all the effects, e.g- Constitution to 16, CON save +3 + PB, +1 HP per level? Basically it'd be better to be explicit about what changes I think, rather than asking the players to recalculate it all.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Whoops, I had trouble with the formatting of the post and must have missed that last item. Here's roughly what it should have said:
Upgraded Build: Any kind of arbitrary ability score increase is problematic as it raises issues of any knock-on effects from the change such as Strength affecting attacks, Constitution affecting HP, effects on saves etc. it probably makes sense to have single specific upgrades for each ability score, and maybe limit them to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution, clarifying all the effects, e.g- Constitution to 16, CON save +3 + PB, +1 HP per level? Basically it'd be better to be explicit about what changes I think, rather than asking the players to recalculate it all.
That ability I felt was one of the upgrades that was just a bit too far out there really. INT boost is one thing, as it makes sense to increase the creatures intelligences to better understand, well everything, around it. As INT boosts nothing really characteristic wise, as you have to know the subject to have it boosted. It would at least allow teaching of such subjects, so it can perform something better, i.e Crafting or even Guarding/Fighting. Boosting everything else, I can see would be very problematic, because none of the normal stuff would adjust really to it.
Several of these upgrades, are just a bit out there really.
Invisible Steel Defender? Unless I am able to cast such a spell on me, I don't see how one would be able to argue to create an upgrade for their SD.
Clockwork Brain - I would take out the Imbued with infusions part. I already think it would be kind of a waste in the end to do that, but it is not a magical creature and should not become one either through infusions.
Extra Attack - I would push further along on the levels, as 4 attacks a turn is a bit much.
Greater/Runic Engravings - Again, the SD isn't suppose to be magical, so I wouldn't even consider it.
Improved Repertoire - This would go back on the whole increasing of base traits. Why would I make him Prof in Stealth, when it doesn't have that skill to begin with?
Riding Harness - I feel is a half stretch at least. As the SD is not meant to be a riding companion. That isn't to say, in an emergency, your SD wouldn't attempt to carry you off somewhere safe, etc.
Spark of Intellect - I would remove the magic portion of it. I would put something more physical in place of it. As something with 13 INT, above average in intelligence to say the least. Should be able to do a lot of things easier and better. That alone is worth the boost, but a replacement for the magical part would be nice.
Upgrade Build - Would remove it, as it doesn't make sense to me to have for the SD
To me the SD is a construct I can physically upgrade to give it more options to do things, but not magical, if anything, anti-magical. I don't see it as something to which it should be able to have base stats upgraded, like a normal player or NPC does, because it isn't either of those.
You can always give the defender Feats every 6 levels of the artificer and cal them upgrades. Of course any spells or skills will use the defenders abilitys scores.
I’m curious why some people think the Steel Defender needs fixing? I haven’t played it yet, but it looks to me like it’s an amazing damage sponge that self repairs and can be healed just using a cantrip, and it also has a great reaction. The damage isn’t great but it’s free bonus action damage regardless.
I’m curious why some people think the Steel Defender needs fixing? I haven’t played it yet, but it looks to me like it’s an amazing damage sponge that self repairs and can be healed just using a cantrip, and it also has a great reaction. The damage isn’t great but it’s free bonus action damage regardless.
In my experience, the Steel Defender is awesome at 3rd level. Tons of fun and you can make it useful in combat. But every level after that it drops in utility. It's got a super-hittable AC and not enough HP to keep up. Most of the time, if you're taking it into the front of the battle, it gets hosed pretty fast. At 5th and 6th level, it's pretty common for it to get dropped in 2 rounds, sometimes even get one-shotted with a little bad luck. The self-healing is great...but in most cases it doesn't keep up with the damage coming in, so using Mending just consumes your action and lets you live another round.
Don't get me wrong...every attack he gets targeted by is one less at a PC, and that's valuable. But I spend as much time playing without my Steel Defender as with it, and you can't easily resummon him inside of a combat (like you can with the cannons) so he's a little underwhelming overall. I thought he would be a lot more integral to my Battlesmith, but it hasn't played that way.
I’m curious why some people think the Steel Defender needs fixing? I haven’t played it yet, but it looks to me like it’s an amazing damage sponge that self repairs and can be healed just using a cantrip, and it also has a great reaction. The damage isn’t great but it’s free bonus action damage regardless.
In my experience, the Steel Defender is awesome at 3rd level. Tons of fun and you can make it useful in combat. But every level after that it drops in utility. It's got a super-hittable AC and not enough HP to keep up. Most of the time, if you're taking it into the front of the battle, it gets hosed pretty fast. At 5th and 6th level, it's pretty common for it to get dropped in 2 rounds, sometimes even get one-shotted with a little bad luck. The self-healing is great...but in most cases it doesn't keep up with the damage coming in, so using Mending just consumes your action and lets you live another round.
Don't get me wrong...every attack he gets targeted by is one less at a PC, and that's valuable. But I spend as much time playing without my Steel Defender as with it, and you can't easily resummon him inside of a combat (like you can with the cannons) so he's a little underwhelming overall. I thought he would be a lot more integral to my Battlesmith, but it hasn't played that way.
Clarification, RAW Mending has a casting time of 1 minute so isn't particularly beneficial to cast in combat.
I’m curious why some people think the Steel Defender needs fixing? I haven’t played it yet, but it looks to me like it’s an amazing damage sponge that self repairs and can be healed just using a cantrip, and it also has a great reaction. The damage isn’t great but it’s free bonus action damage regardless.
In my experience, the Steel Defender is awesome at 3rd level. Tons of fun and you can make it useful in combat. But every level after that it drops in utility. It's got a super-hittable AC and not enough HP to keep up. Most of the time, if you're taking it into the front of the battle, it gets hosed pretty fast. At 5th and 6th level, it's pretty common for it to get dropped in 2 rounds, sometimes even get one-shotted with a little bad luck. The self-healing is great...but in most cases it doesn't keep up with the damage coming in, so using Mending just consumes your action and lets you live another round.
Don't get me wrong...every attack he gets targeted by is one less at a PC, and that's valuable. But I spend as much time playing without my Steel Defender as with it, and you can't easily resummon him inside of a combat (like you can with the cannons) so he's a little underwhelming overall. I thought he would be a lot more integral to my Battlesmith, but it hasn't played that way.
That's kind of disappointing, but when I look at it, what you said makes sense. It basically has the HP and AC of a super squishy PC, which you wouldn't put on the front lines. But then no ranged attack... so what do you do?
I suppose you can look at the Steel Defender as a level 1 conjuration spell with one free casting. In that regard it's still good. Just not an integral part being my PC's permanent battle buddy.
So now I'm brainstorming options. What do you think of bringing it into the front lines, but it only takes the Dodge action as its main action? It's a damage sponge and a distraction, and it still can impose disadvantage as a main action.
I’m curious why some people think the Steel Defender needs fixing? I haven’t played it yet, but it looks to me like it’s an amazing damage sponge that self repairs and can be healed just using a cantrip, and it also has a great reaction. The damage isn’t great but it’s free bonus action damage regardless.
In my experience, the Steel Defender is awesome at 3rd level. Tons of fun and you can make it useful in combat. But every level after that it drops in utility. It's got a super-hittable AC and not enough HP to keep up. Most of the time, if you're taking it into the front of the battle, it gets hosed pretty fast. At 5th and 6th level, it's pretty common for it to get dropped in 2 rounds, sometimes even get one-shotted with a little bad luck. The self-healing is great...but in most cases it doesn't keep up with the damage coming in, so using Mending just consumes your action and lets you live another round.
Don't get me wrong...every attack he gets targeted by is one less at a PC, and that's valuable. But I spend as much time playing without my Steel Defender as with it, and you can't easily resummon him inside of a combat (like you can with the cannons) so he's a little underwhelming overall. I thought he would be a lot more integral to my Battlesmith, but it hasn't played that way.
That's kind of disappointing, but when I look at it, what you said makes sense. It basically has the HP and AC of a super squishy PC, which you wouldn't put on the front lines. But then no ranged attack... so what do you do?
I suppose you can look at the Steel Defender as a level 1 conjuration spell with one free casting. In that regard it's still good. Just not an integral part being my PC's permanent battle buddy.
So now I'm brainstorming options. What do you think of bringing it into the front lines, but it only takes the Dodge action as its main action? It's a damage sponge and a distraction, and it still can impose disadvantage as a main action.
The downside is that you can't even summon it effectively in combat. It takes a full minute to "re-summon" it when you burn a spell slot. We have a tandem that *should* be cool...and was at lower level. Armorer artificer and my Steel Defender as a team. Steel Defender uses the "help" action for the Armorer, giving him Advantage on his first attack. If the attack hits (or any attack) the target has Disadvantage attacking anyone other than the Armorer. SD uses his reaction to impose Disad on the first attack if the mob goes after the Armorer.
It's useful, and frustrating for the DM since he's always having at least one attack at Disad. But it's hardly game-breaking.
But on it's own, it can basically spend all of it's time just being harder to hit and making his boss harder to hit for one attack. That's useful, but not impressive. And honestly, there's very little to make it actually a fun tactical choice. He basically becomes a one-trick pony.
We haven't gotten to higher levels yet with the added abilities of extra healing he can throw out. That will make him a little more interesting, but I feel like it is overall underwhelming. I would love to see what the designers thought it was actually supposed to be good for, or if they expected it to be fairly lackluster.
I’m curious why some people think the Steel Defender needs fixing? I haven’t played it yet, but it looks to me like it’s an amazing damage sponge that self repairs and can be healed just using a cantrip, and it also has a great reaction. The damage isn’t great but it’s free bonus action damage regardless.
In my experience, the Steel Defender is awesome at 3rd level. Tons of fun and you can make it useful in combat. But every level after that it drops in utility. It's got a super-hittable AC and not enough HP to keep up. Most of the time, if you're taking it into the front of the battle, it gets hosed pretty fast. At 5th and 6th level, it's pretty common for it to get dropped in 2 rounds, sometimes even get one-shotted with a little bad luck. The self-healing is great...but in most cases it doesn't keep up with the damage coming in, so using Mending just consumes your action and lets you live another round.
Don't get me wrong...every attack he gets targeted by is one less at a PC, and that's valuable. But I spend as much time playing without my Steel Defender as with it, and you can't easily resummon him inside of a combat (like you can with the cannons) so he's a little underwhelming overall. I thought he would be a lot more integral to my Battlesmith, but it hasn't played that way.
That's kind of disappointing, but when I look at it, what you said makes sense. It basically has the HP and AC of a super squishy PC, which you wouldn't put on the front lines. But then no ranged attack... so what do you do?
I suppose you can look at the Steel Defender as a level 1 conjuration spell with one free casting. In that regard it's still good. Just not an integral part being my PC's permanent battle buddy.
So now I'm brainstorming options. What do you think of bringing it into the front lines, but it only takes the Dodge action as its main action? It's a damage sponge and a distraction, and it still can impose disadvantage as a main action.
The downside is that you can't even summon it effectively in combat. It takes a full minute to "re-summon" it when you burn a spell slot. We have a tandem that *should* be cool...and was at lower level. Armorer artificer and my Steel Defender as a team. Steel Defender uses the "help" action for the Armorer, giving him Advantage on his first attack. If the attack hits (or any attack) the target has Disadvantage attacking anyone other than the Armorer. SD uses his reaction to impose Disad on the first attack if the mob goes after the Armorer.
It's useful, and frustrating for the DM since he's always having at least one attack at Disad. But it's hardly game-breaking.
But on it's own, it can basically spend all of it's time just being harder to hit and making his boss harder to hit for one attack. That's useful, but not impressive. And honestly, there's very little to make it actually a fun tactical choice. He basically becomes a one-trick pony.
We haven't gotten to higher levels yet with the added abilities of extra healing he can throw out. That will make him a little more interesting, but I feel like it is overall underwhelming. I would love to see what the designers thought it was actually supposed to be good for, or if they expected it to be fairly lackluster.
Objectively it seems to still be pretty good. Every single point of damage it takes is damage being redirected from you or your friends. That alone is pretty effective, but then it also does some useful things while it's alive.
However, just having a damage sponge that does not live long isn't fun. I had visions of me and my Steel Defender being a full time team.
However, just having a damage sponge that does not live long isn't fun. I had visions of me and my Steel Defender being a full time team.
I mean it's literally called a Steel Defender, its main purpose is to defend you by taking damage and/or making you harder to hit.
It's also not that squishy; part of the problem is the temptation to always be attacking with it, but if you don't then not only can you use your bonus action for something else (including two weapon fighting to deal more damage of your own by doubling down on INT based magical weapons), but the defender can Dodge automatically which gives it an effective 20 AC (as disadvantage is equivalent to -5 to hit it), plus advantage on Dexterity saving throws (somewhat equivalent to a +5 to succeed on one of the most common saves, and that's on top of proficiency +1). So if you don't attack with the defender it's actually very durable, plus it can repair itself in combat equivalent to a 2nd-level cure wounds, and out of combat you can fully heal essentially for free using mending.
So by only using your bonus action to heal the defender, you have a pretty durable damage sink to keep you (or any ally) from taking damage. In many ways attacking with the defender is a waste because it doesn't deal a huge amount of damage for the cost (making the defender a lot less resilient). Also worth noting that the defender doesn't have to die when it reaches 0 hit-points; it's a player controlled creature so it should really take death saving throws like a player character would, it's not easy to rescue when doing so, but anything that boosts saving throws will help it.
In this way, I feel like the force empowered rend is a trap; you only really want to use it if you need a non-resisted damage type, or if you're absolutely determined to take shield (though IMO that's also a trap, because it makes it a lot harder in Rules As Written to switching between using a weapon and casting spells). Personally I prefer to dual wield for the off hand attack option, as with an infused off hand weapon it can do similar damage anyway, and doesn't weaken your defender's defences.
I think it's also worth keeping in mind that the defender is not the battle smith's core sub-class feature; the battle smith's best feature is being only dependent on a single attribute (Intelligence) and being very proficient with weapons. Arcane Jolt doesn't require your defender at all.
I'm all for upgrades to make force empowered rend less of an obvious trap, or to add some more out of combat utility, but I think in terms of balance the defender is already more than solid.
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However, just having a damage sponge that does not live long isn't fun. I had visions of me and my Steel Defender being a full time team.
I mean it's literally called a Steel Defender, its main purpose is to defend you by taking damage and/or making you harder to hit.
It's also not that squishy; part of the problem is the temptation to always be attacking with it, but if you don't then not only can you use your bonus action for something else (including two weapon fighting to deal more damage of your own by doubling down on INT based magical weapons), but the defender can Dodge automatically which gives it an effective 20 AC (as disadvantage is equivalent to -5 to hit it), plus advantage on Dexterity saving throws (somewhat equivalent to a +5 to succeed on one of the most common saves, and that's on top of proficiency +1). So if you don't attack with the defender it's actually very durable, plus it can repair itself in combat equivalent to a 2nd-level cure wounds, and out of combat you can fully heal essentially for free using mending.
So by only using your bonus action to heal the defender, you have a pretty durable damage sink to keep you (or any ally) from taking damage. In many ways attacking with the defender is a waste because it doesn't deal a huge amount of damage for the cost (making the defender a lot less resilient). Also worth noting that the defender doesn't have to die when it reaches 0 hit-points; it's a player controlled creature so it should really take death saving throws like a player character would, it's not easy to rescue when doing so, but anything that boosts saving throws will help it.
In this way, I feel like the force empowered rend is a trap; you only really want to use it if you need a non-resisted damage type, or if you're absolutely determined to take shield (though IMO that's also a trap, because it makes it a lot harder in Rules As Written to switching between using a weapon and casting spells). Personally I prefer to dual wield for the off hand attack option, as with an infused off hand weapon it can do similar damage anyway, and doesn't weaken your defender's defences.
I think it's also worth keeping in mind that the defender is not the battle smith's core sub-class feature; the battle smith's best feature is being only dependent on a single attribute (Intelligence) and being very proficient with weapons. Arcane Jolt doesn't require your defender at all.
I'm all for upgrades to make force empowered rend less of an obvious trap, or to add some more out of combat utility, but I think in terms of balance the defender is already more than solid.
This is all great insight. Just using the free Dodge and reaction defense was the next thing I thought about.
As for carrying a shield, can't you just stow and draw your weapon as a free action?
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https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Battle_Smith_Steel_Defender_Upgrades_(5e_Class_Feature) ---- You may need to copy and paste the entire line to see, including the "(5e_Class_Feature)" part, which isn't hyperlinked.
Lets try this again, stupid site...
I am sure many of you are aware of this homebrew and I am curious what are your thoughts on them? What do you feel is overpowered? Does this stretch what you envision the Steel Defender to be? As I am sure all people who play Artificer, your first thought on anything, especially the Steel Defender, is how can I make this better, because that is what an Artificer is in the end.
I honestly feel that Wizards fell very short on the implementation of the Steel Defender. Which leaves it 100% within the DMs purview of what homebrew would be let in. So I am speaking with my group/DM to see what is reasonable and I am curious what other experienced players may think on all this. I overall believe the Steel Defender can achieve at these two things reasonably, a) Defender/Guard/Bodyguard/Soldier and b) Assistant in Crafting. The second one depends in the INT lv, allowing it at least some area of being able to assist in the manner.
As for the implementation of the feature, I am rather on the fence with that. I do not believe going based off INT modifier is a bad idea, but you already get a good dose of upgrades at Lv 2 (Infusions) and now at Lv 3 you get another good dose of upgrades as well. Getting a Steel Defender and being able to just upgrade it 3 times immediately, just seems a bit much. Upgrading the Steel Defender, I feel should be done over a period of time for just one upgrade. Like over a week's (7 days) worth of long rests. This could also replace the limitation of only be able to replace an upgrade on the Steel Defender at when you level. Any thoughts on possible requiring materials (though this may be a bit difficult in general and possibly make it limiting)? Requiring Tools and being Prof in them?
So what are your thoughts? I will already state some of these upgrades are rather out there.
Not to bump a "dead post", just seeing. No one has a thought? I assume people don't care lol, but just curious.
I'll stop here, if no one responds.
I like the ideas!
First thing's first, to fix your link, while editing your post you can use the link button (looks like a chain) to set the full link on a piece of text. I think when it comes to auto-detecting URLs the site doesn't like brackets and other symbols in the URL, which is why your link is broken.
To the homebrew itself; first thing to say is that INT upgrades as standard is definitely too many. The defender should just get a fixed number of upgrades (four?) as the Battle Smith levels up, probably starting around 6th level (so maybe 6th, 9th, 12th and 15th levels?) as we're talking about further improving an already good sub-class.
For a few specific upgrades:
Sorry if it seems like I'm nit-picking a lot of this, but balancing lists of options is notoriously difficult and I mess it up all the time myself in my own homebrew, so I can't guarantee my suggestions are perfect. These are just my thoughts on them anyway, hope you find some of it useful!
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think there's precedent to this concept using the Armorer features... Armorer eventually gets extra infusions that can exclusively be used on their armor.
I think, then, that the best solution is to include wording in the Steel Defender that allows you to attach infusions to it, and include a few SD-specific infusions. I think the homebrew that got linked is a little too generous and complicated, but that's pretty much just what dandwiki is famous for. I'd say if you could treat the SD as though it was wearing armor and carrying a weapon, and allowing any existing infusions to be placed on it, that would cover it... I don't think it would make sense to make it as versatile as an armorer's armor (which is considered to be armor, boots, helmet, and weapon). At 9th level, then, I would swap the Arcane Jolt feature with the bonus 2 infusions that can only be placed on the Steel Defender. Maybe switch Arcane Jolt itself to being an infusion... that way it's balanced by the fact that it can only be given to yourself or to your Steel Defender, as opposed to being something you or the SD could do at-will.
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I feel using the already limited resource of infusions to do work on the SD would be more harmful than good in the end, even with 2 added slots. So much more can be done and they can be simply "turned off", by other magic wielders or magic defenses. I do agree with you and Haravikk, that there should be either a slower progression or other form of giving "points" to spend on the SD. I see more you working/tinkering on the SD to make better, which is one huge aspect of the Artificer, instead of simply instilling magic into the SD.
I do also agree that some upgrades are very out there and just something that doesn't make sense to incorporate into the SD, but other things, like enhancing the armor, making it faster, possibly bigger, even smarter, is all something that makes sense in the tinkering mindset.
I do appreciate the feedback though, it has sparked a few ideas.
Well, here's another concept I've been considering for the steel defender ... You can modify a steel defender pretty thoroughly, but if your SD gets destroyed and you need to create a new one it's lost permanently. The battle Smith subclass already allows you to create a new steel defender for free after a long rest, or to use a spell slot to create a new one. So you can either treat your SD as a complexly customizable permanent ally, or as disposable canon fodder.
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Your list seems to have cut off.
As for nit picking, this is a great list. Some of it, I wouldn't have even taken to begin with myself, like the harness for example. Though for me the INT boost ones, I get opens more doors than what I would really use it for, but you can simply limit that. As increase INT helps with better communication as well, better understanding, better memory, can operate a bit more beyond just a simple "dumb" bodyguard, so to speak.
As previously mentioned, I really see the SD as only a guard and a possible assistant in crafting. Overall, I see the Artificer seeing the SD as basically its best friend, loyal companion, etc. Why wouldn't the Artificer try to make it be, more, than just a simple minded construct that obeys. Jarvis is way smarter than Iron Man, and obeys all commands in the end and doesn't try to do anything that is outside its program or knows for a fact would cause damage to master or friends. That I believe is something achievable to a degree for the SD.
I agree with several of your points as well, so very appreciated for the post.
Interesting concept, though losing the SD is a huge aspect of the Battle Smith. However incomplete I believe the subclass is in that area, it would be missing a lot if the SD were to just poof, due to XYZ reason. I would say as a balance in this regard that, sure you can rebuild the SD, but the upgrades, and even when done the first time around, take time to install onto the SD. That way, yes, you invested into your SD, it is this beast of a construct, took months (just an example) to get it to this point. Poof. Well, not it takes you months ago to get to that point. So there is no "instant" recovery. Some cost beyond a simple long rest is being paid to achieve the goal of which you want to get to.
Whoops, I had trouble with the formatting of the post and must have missed that last item. Here's roughly what it should have said:
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
That ability I felt was one of the upgrades that was just a bit too far out there really. INT boost is one thing, as it makes sense to increase the creatures intelligences to better understand, well everything, around it. As INT boosts nothing really characteristic wise, as you have to know the subject to have it boosted. It would at least allow teaching of such subjects, so it can perform something better, i.e Crafting or even Guarding/Fighting. Boosting everything else, I can see would be very problematic, because none of the normal stuff would adjust really to it.
Several of these upgrades, are just a bit out there really.
To me the SD is a construct I can physically upgrade to give it more options to do things, but not magical, if anything, anti-magical. I don't see it as something to which it should be able to have base stats upgraded, like a normal player or NPC does, because it isn't either of those.
You can always give the defender Feats every 6 levels of the artificer and cal them upgrades. Of course any spells or skills will use the defenders abilitys scores.
I’m curious why some people think the Steel Defender needs fixing? I haven’t played it yet, but it looks to me like it’s an amazing damage sponge that self repairs and can be healed just using a cantrip, and it also has a great reaction. The damage isn’t great but it’s free bonus action damage regardless.
In my experience, the Steel Defender is awesome at 3rd level. Tons of fun and you can make it useful in combat. But every level after that it drops in utility. It's got a super-hittable AC and not enough HP to keep up. Most of the time, if you're taking it into the front of the battle, it gets hosed pretty fast. At 5th and 6th level, it's pretty common for it to get dropped in 2 rounds, sometimes even get one-shotted with a little bad luck. The self-healing is great...but in most cases it doesn't keep up with the damage coming in, so using Mending just consumes your action and lets you live another round.
Don't get me wrong...every attack he gets targeted by is one less at a PC, and that's valuable. But I spend as much time playing without my Steel Defender as with it, and you can't easily resummon him inside of a combat (like you can with the cannons) so he's a little underwhelming overall. I thought he would be a lot more integral to my Battlesmith, but it hasn't played that way.
Clarification, RAW Mending has a casting time of 1 minute so isn't particularly beneficial to cast in combat.
Though there are a few magic items that allow casting Mending as an action.
That's kind of disappointing, but when I look at it, what you said makes sense. It basically has the HP and AC of a super squishy PC, which you wouldn't put on the front lines. But then no ranged attack... so what do you do?
I suppose you can look at the Steel Defender as a level 1 conjuration spell with one free casting. In that regard it's still good. Just not an integral part being my PC's permanent battle buddy.
So now I'm brainstorming options. What do you think of bringing it into the front lines, but it only takes the Dodge action as its main action? It's a damage sponge and a distraction, and it still can impose disadvantage as a main action.
Sorry...I meant it's "Repair" action, which feels like an in-combat Mending.
The downside is that you can't even summon it effectively in combat. It takes a full minute to "re-summon" it when you burn a spell slot. We have a tandem that *should* be cool...and was at lower level. Armorer artificer and my Steel Defender as a team. Steel Defender uses the "help" action for the Armorer, giving him Advantage on his first attack. If the attack hits (or any attack) the target has Disadvantage attacking anyone other than the Armorer. SD uses his reaction to impose Disad on the first attack if the mob goes after the Armorer.
It's useful, and frustrating for the DM since he's always having at least one attack at Disad. But it's hardly game-breaking.
But on it's own, it can basically spend all of it's time just being harder to hit and making his boss harder to hit for one attack. That's useful, but not impressive. And honestly, there's very little to make it actually a fun tactical choice. He basically becomes a one-trick pony.
We haven't gotten to higher levels yet with the added abilities of extra healing he can throw out. That will make him a little more interesting, but I feel like it is overall underwhelming. I would love to see what the designers thought it was actually supposed to be good for, or if they expected it to be fairly lackluster.
Objectively it seems to still be pretty good. Every single point of damage it takes is damage being redirected from you or your friends. That alone is pretty effective, but then it also does some useful things while it's alive.
However, just having a damage sponge that does not live long isn't fun. I had visions of me and my Steel Defender being a full time team.
I mean it's literally called a Steel Defender, its main purpose is to defend you by taking damage and/or making you harder to hit.
It's also not that squishy; part of the problem is the temptation to always be attacking with it, but if you don't then not only can you use your bonus action for something else (including two weapon fighting to deal more damage of your own by doubling down on INT based magical weapons), but the defender can Dodge automatically which gives it an effective 20 AC (as disadvantage is equivalent to -5 to hit it), plus advantage on Dexterity saving throws (somewhat equivalent to a +5 to succeed on one of the most common saves, and that's on top of proficiency +1). So if you don't attack with the defender it's actually very durable, plus it can repair itself in combat equivalent to a 2nd-level cure wounds, and out of combat you can fully heal essentially for free using mending.
So by only using your bonus action to heal the defender, you have a pretty durable damage sink to keep you (or any ally) from taking damage. In many ways attacking with the defender is a waste because it doesn't deal a huge amount of damage for the cost (making the defender a lot less resilient). Also worth noting that the defender doesn't have to die when it reaches 0 hit-points; it's a player controlled creature so it should really take death saving throws like a player character would, it's not easy to rescue when doing so, but anything that boosts saving throws will help it.
In this way, I feel like the force empowered rend is a trap; you only really want to use it if you need a non-resisted damage type, or if you're absolutely determined to take shield (though IMO that's also a trap, because it makes it a lot harder in Rules As Written to switching between using a weapon and casting spells). Personally I prefer to dual wield for the off hand attack option, as with an infused off hand weapon it can do similar damage anyway, and doesn't weaken your defender's defences.
I think it's also worth keeping in mind that the defender is not the battle smith's core sub-class feature; the battle smith's best feature is being only dependent on a single attribute (Intelligence) and being very proficient with weapons. Arcane Jolt doesn't require your defender at all.
I'm all for upgrades to make force empowered rend less of an obvious trap, or to add some more out of combat utility, but I think in terms of balance the defender is already more than solid.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
This is all great insight. Just using the free Dodge and reaction defense was the next thing I thought about.
As for carrying a shield, can't you just stow and draw your weapon as a free action?