Hey all, looking for some pointers here. I'm DMing a party of 4, a Harengon Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Elf Cleric and Shadar Kai Warlock. Very cool party, interesting and powerful characters all. However. the barb is an Absolute animal. STR and CON off the hook, high AC, high to hit, high damage, multiple attacks, and if anyone Can hit him it's often for half. Practically every encounter needs a special brute or mini horde for him specifically and it's got me wondering... How can i take this guy down without a TPW scenario? lol. I can strategize and flavor and improvise, i know i'm "in control", but creating a natural feeling encounter that challenges them all equally is a trick sometimes, just wondering if anyone has any insights or ideas, thanks!
Hey all, looking for some pointers here. I'm DMing a party of 4, a Harengon Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Elf Cleric and Shadar Kai Warlock. Very cool party, interesting and powerful characters all. However. the barb is an Absolute animal. STR and CON off the hook, high AC, high to hit, high damage, multiple attacks, and if anyone Can hit him it's often for half. Practically every encounter needs a special brute or mini horde for him specifically and it's got me wondering... How can i take this guy down without a TPW scenario? lol. I can strategize and flavor and improvise, i know i'm "in control", but creating a natural feeling encounter that challenges them all equally is a trick sometimes, just wondering if anyone has any insights or ideas, thanks!
There are a few tricks for dealing with barbarians:
1. overtapping: prior to endgame content, the barbarian has a fixed number of rages and if you can bait them all out he's just some dude with a thong and a lot of hp.
2. Blocking: the barbarian needs to be constantly hitting or getting hit. if he doesn't do that for a turn his rage ends.
3. MC effects: if the barbarian is charmed then all those strengths become weaknesses.
4. Flying enemies: your rage is useless if you can't reach the target.
5. Banish is a wonderful spell for terminating barbarian rages.
6. Also, just remembered something from Spelljammer that I actually do like: murder commets. These bad boys are idiotically fast, have fly by, a good AC and a ranged attack. Also they explode when they die.
Really, the biggest thing you want to do is just not feed into his strengths which is getting punched in the face and possibly turn him against the rest of the party for extra funsies.
nice, thank you! The blocking is something I will have to pay closer attention to for sure. They're only lvl 5 right now so until everyone else starts filling out more (which they are on the cusp of) his CR is sitting disproportionately higher for the time being. Flying enemies will definitely be more of a thing soon as well. As of now combats often don't go a full 10 rounds and he's got 3 rages, so wearing them out before the rest of the party is out of spell slots and abilities is a balancing act too. Good insights, i appreciate the input!
If the character has high AC, hit him with some effects that require saving throws instead. But don't turn everything into this- it's really frustrating for a player to have every encounter turn out to be something that counters all their character's abilities.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Hey all, looking for some pointers here. I'm DMing a party of 4, a Harengon Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Elf Cleric and Shadar Kai Warlock. Very cool party, interesting and powerful characters all. However. the barb is an Absolute animal. STR and CON off the hook, high AC, high to hit, high damage, multiple attacks, and if anyone Can hit him it's often for half. Practically every encounter needs a special brute or mini horde for him specifically and it's got me wondering... How can i take this guy down without a TPW scenario? lol. I can strategize and flavor and improvise, i know i'm "in control", but creating a natural feeling encounter that challenges them all equally is a trick sometimes, just wondering if anyone has any insights or ideas, thanks!
There are a few tricks for dealing with barbarians:
1. overtapping: prior to endgame content, the barbarian has a fixed number of rages and if you can bait them all out he's just some dude with a thong and a lot of hp.
2. Blocking: the barbarian needs to be constantly hitting or getting hit. if he doesn't do that for a turn his rage ends.
3. MC effects: if the barbarian is charmed then all those strengths become weaknesses.
4. Flying enemies: your rage is useless if you can't reach the target.
5. Banish is a wonderful spell for terminating barbarian rages.
6. Also, just remembered something from Spelljammer that I actually do like: murder commets. These bad boys are idiotically fast, have fly by, a good AC and a ranged attack. Also they explode when they die.
Really, the biggest thing you want to do is just not feed into his strengths which is getting punched in the face and possibly turn him against the rest of the party for extra funsies.
Very important: Barbarians don't have to hit, they only have to attack to maintain rage! Meaning, rage could even maintained against flying enemies for example, if the barb just throws a weapon - it does not need to hit!
Consider the sea hag if it makes sense for the situation. The Death Glare can be nasty.
(One totally didn't drop my Rogue from full health to 0, not at all.)
Hate those things; one dropped my level 6 damage sponge fighter/barbarian minotaur from 70 hp to 0 while raging. On the plus side I rolled a natural 20 on the first death saving throw and immediately got back up again, but still; Second Wind only got me 9 hp back. 😡
Dunno if I'd recommend throwing one at the party more than once though unless it's a specific recurring enemy or the like; being knocked down to 0 hp on the regular isn't going to be fun!
I would say that it may be wrong to think that you need to "bring down" the Barbarian; they're there to be the party's tank so it's okay to be bogging them down with enemies while the rest of the party deals with other threats. Sure they can take a lot of punishment, but it's still a finite amount; the advantage of the barbarian taking damage is that it means someone else isn't, and your hope is that by keeping the rest of the party up they can deal with the threats that the barbarian can't, or can support them in bringing down enemies that might overwhelm them on their own.
I would say though that your average Barbarian doesn't have great magical defences, so any spellcaster in the mix, or really just anything that targets Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma saves is likely to work well as a counter to a barbarian; at the very least it will require the party's casters to counter the enemy ones to prevent the barbarian from caught with a hold person or whatever. Also, Rage only halves certain damage types (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, or all except psychic for a bear totem Barbarian) so anything that can deal other damage types can still hurt a barbarian same as anyone else.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
To mirror what was said above; mind-based Saving Throws are the Barbarian's natural enemy. There are plenty of tools to use that can not only incapacitate the bigbeefyboy, but also turn him against his allies for a bit! I'm not sure what your campaign looks like but try to throw in monsters with charming effects, as was already said.
And to reiterate again what was already said - it's no fun going into every encounter and having someone be perfectly set up to exploit your weaknesses. If the barb is doing TOO much then by all means, throw in some flying enemies, or people standing on rooftops or something that he can't easily get to. (Have spellcasters make difficult terrain, for example). But also remember that that's what the barb does. Whereas other classes have abilities and spells that usually can help outside combat to an extent, that hunk o'muscle is built solely for combat. Be sure to give him a few chances to shine as well.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Hey all, looking for some pointers here. I'm DMing a party of 4, a Harengon Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Elf Cleric and Shadar Kai Warlock. Very cool party, interesting and powerful characters all. However. the barb is an Absolute animal. STR and CON off the hook, high AC, high to hit, high damage, multiple attacks, and if anyone Can hit him it's often for half. Practically every encounter needs a special brute or mini horde for him specifically and it's got me wondering... How can i take this guy down without a TPW scenario? lol. I can strategize and flavor and improvise, i know i'm "in control", but creating a natural feeling encounter that challenges them all equally is a trick sometimes, just wondering if anyone has any insights or ideas, thanks!
There are a few tricks for dealing with barbarians:
1. overtapping: prior to endgame content, the barbarian has a fixed number of rages and if you can bait them all out he's just some dude with a thong and a lot of hp.
2. Blocking: the barbarian needs to be constantly hitting or getting hit. if he doesn't do that for a turn his rage ends.
3. MC effects: if the barbarian is charmed then all those strengths become weaknesses.
4. Flying enemies: your rage is useless if you can't reach the target.
5. Banish is a wonderful spell for terminating barbarian rages.
6. Also, just remembered something from Spelljammer that I actually do like: murder commets. These bad boys are idiotically fast, have fly by, a good AC and a ranged attack. Also they explode when they die.
Really, the biggest thing you want to do is just not feed into his strengths which is getting punched in the face and possibly turn him against the rest of the party for extra funsies.
Very important: Barbarians don't have to hit, they only have to attack to maintain rage! Meaning, rage could even maintained against flying enemies for example, if the barb just throws a weapon - it does not need to hit!
This is true, but most barbarians aren't going to be carting around that many throwing weapons, let alone a bow or other dedicated ranged weapon.
Hey all, looking for some pointers here. I'm DMing a party of 4, a Harengon Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Elf Cleric and Shadar Kai Warlock. Very cool party, interesting and powerful characters all. However. the barb is an Absolute animal. STR and CON off the hook, high AC, high to hit, high damage, multiple attacks, and if anyone Can hit him it's often for half. Practically every encounter needs a special brute or mini horde for him specifically and it's got me wondering... How can i take this guy down without a TPW scenario? lol. I can strategize and flavor and improvise, i know i'm "in control", but creating a natural feeling encounter that challenges them all equally is a trick sometimes, just wondering if anyone has any insights or ideas, thanks!
There are a few tricks for dealing with barbarians:
1. overtapping: prior to endgame content, the barbarian has a fixed number of rages and if you can bait them all out he's just some dude with a thong and a lot of hp.
2. Blocking: the barbarian needs to be constantly hitting or getting hit. if he doesn't do that for a turn his rage ends.
3. MC effects: if the barbarian is charmed then all those strengths become weaknesses.
4. Flying enemies: your rage is useless if you can't reach the target.
5. Banish is a wonderful spell for terminating barbarian rages.
6. Also, just remembered something from Spelljammer that I actually do like: murder commets. These bad boys are idiotically fast, have fly by, a good AC and a ranged attack. Also they explode when they die.
Really, the biggest thing you want to do is just not feed into his strengths which is getting punched in the face and possibly turn him against the rest of the party for extra funsies.
Very important: Barbarians don't have to hit, they only have to attack to maintain rage! Meaning, rage could even maintained against flying enemies for example, if the barb just throws a weapon - it does not need to hit!
This is true, but most barbarians aren't going to be carting around that many throwing weapons, let alone a bow or other dedicated ranged weapon.
I mean, the Barbarian starting equipment contains 2 handaxes and 4 javelins, so there can be some rounds of rage maintained RAW. If the DM allows self harming (or, the more badass intimidating variant, alchemists fire put on yourself), rage can go for a long time.
Anyways, I just wanted to point out that rage does not end when a barb does no damage, but if a barb does not attack (or get damage).
thanks guys this is all great! I had been thinking about the mental stat saves etc, but as 6thlyranguard pointed out simply disabling him all the time would get frustrating even for me, lol. This has given me a lot to work with though i appreciate all the input! They're on their way to uncovering a coven of witches (which i am homebrewing based mostly off of night hags, but Was planning on giving the white haired one Death Glare, conveniently), so this will be a good opportunity for some rug pulling action, lol
Hey all, looking for some pointers here. I'm DMing a party of 4, a Harengon Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Elf Cleric and Shadar Kai Warlock. Very cool party, interesting and powerful characters all. However. the barb is an Absolute animal. STR and CON off the hook, high AC, high to hit, high damage, multiple attacks, and if anyone Can hit him it's often for half. Practically every encounter needs a special brute or mini horde for him specifically and it's got me wondering... How can i take this guy down without a TPW scenario? lol. I can strategize and flavor and improvise, i know i'm "in control", but creating a natural feeling encounter that challenges them all equally is a trick sometimes, just wondering if anyone has any insights or ideas, thanks!
I'm curious. Did your table roll for stats because even with floating ASIs something is fishy here.
Other than that barbarians are notoriously susceptible to mental saves that break rage and rages aren't cheap. Past that the class starts strong but falls off pretty hard in T3-4. Partially due to the save issue and the slow decline of the value of HP damage as primary solution.
Since we don't know the character's actual stats and build choices I would hesitate to say anything fishy is going on. With point buy and Variant Human it is possible to have an 18 Str, 16 Con, and 14 Dex with the Polearm Master feat by level 5. With a spear and shield you have a minimum AC of 17 which is nothing to sneeze at, and you are attacking 3 times a turn with advantage and rage damage. If you assume a 60% hit chance then this theoretical character is doing just over 24 DPR after they get their rage up. If they go for a glaive and forgo the shield then they have a minimum AC of 15 and are doing over 26.8 DPR. Any magical items in the mix will just take things further from here. So I think building a character like the OP describes is quite possible.
As everyone has stated mental saves and conditions are the Achilles heel of any barbarian, particularly Bear Totem barbarians.
One thing I didn't see mentioned in the thread though is ambushing. If you win initiative against the barbarian you can pile on the damage before they rage and become resistant to damage. This is nice because it can really raise the stakes for the barbarian without completely shutting them down. This allows for a scene where the barbarian gets gut punched and then spits their blood out on the floor before going in swinging. This can also let the cleric/bard in the party really shine in the support role.
Also the barbarian is likely hyper specialized in combat and so it makes sense for them to shine there. You can use the exploration and social parts of an adventure to give opportunities for your other party members to shine. The bard and warlock for example I would expect to do really well in a social encounter where the barbarian will really struggle.
Hey all, looking for some pointers here. I'm DMing a party of 4, a Harengon Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Elf Cleric and Shadar Kai Warlock. Very cool party, interesting and powerful characters all. However. the barb is an Absolute animal. STR and CON off the hook, high AC, high to hit, high damage, multiple attacks, and if anyone Can hit him it's often for half. Practically every encounter needs a special brute or mini horde for him specifically and it's got me wondering... How can i take this guy down without a TPW scenario? lol. I can strategize and flavor and improvise, i know i'm "in control", but creating a natural feeling encounter that challenges them all equally is a trick sometimes, just wondering if anyone has any insights or ideas, thanks!
There are a few tricks for dealing with barbarians:
1. overtapping: prior to endgame content, the barbarian has a fixed number of rages and if you can bait them all out he's just some dude with a thong and a lot of hp.
2. Blocking: the barbarian needs to be constantly hitting or getting hit. if he doesn't do that for a turn his rage ends.
3. MC effects: if the barbarian is charmed then all those strengths become weaknesses.
4. Flying enemies: your rage is useless if you can't reach the target.
5. Banish is a wonderful spell for terminating barbarian rages.
6. Also, just remembered something from Spelljammer that I actually do like: murder commets. These bad boys are idiotically fast, have fly by, a good AC and a ranged attack. Also they explode when they die.
Really, the biggest thing you want to do is just not feed into his strengths which is getting punched in the face and possibly turn him against the rest of the party for extra funsies.
nice, thank you! The blocking is something I will have to pay closer attention to for sure. They're only lvl 5 right now so until everyone else starts filling out more (which they are on the cusp of) his CR is sitting disproportionately higher for the time being. Flying enemies will definitely be more of a thing soon as well. As of now combats often don't go a full 10 rounds and he's got 3 rages, so wearing them out before the rest of the party is out of spell slots and abilities is a balancing act too. Good insights, i appreciate the input!
If the character has high AC, hit him with some effects that require saving throws instead. But don't turn everything into this- it's really frustrating for a player to have every encounter turn out to be something that counters all their character's abilities.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Consider the sea hag if it makes sense for the situation. The Death Glare can be nasty.
(One totally didn't drop my Rogue from full health to 0, not at all.)
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Very important: Barbarians don't have to hit, they only have to attack to maintain rage! Meaning, rage could even maintained against flying enemies for example, if the barb just throws a weapon - it does not need to hit!
Hate those things; one dropped my level 6 damage sponge fighter/barbarian minotaur from 70 hp to 0 while raging. On the plus side I rolled a natural 20 on the first death saving throw and immediately got back up again, but still; Second Wind only got me 9 hp back. 😡
Dunno if I'd recommend throwing one at the party more than once though unless it's a specific recurring enemy or the like; being knocked down to 0 hp on the regular isn't going to be fun!
I would say that it may be wrong to think that you need to "bring down" the Barbarian; they're there to be the party's tank so it's okay to be bogging them down with enemies while the rest of the party deals with other threats. Sure they can take a lot of punishment, but it's still a finite amount; the advantage of the barbarian taking damage is that it means someone else isn't, and your hope is that by keeping the rest of the party up they can deal with the threats that the barbarian can't, or can support them in bringing down enemies that might overwhelm them on their own.
I would say though that your average Barbarian doesn't have great magical defences, so any spellcaster in the mix, or really just anything that targets Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma saves is likely to work well as a counter to a barbarian; at the very least it will require the party's casters to counter the enemy ones to prevent the barbarian from caught with a hold person or whatever. Also, Rage only halves certain damage types (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, or all except psychic for a bear totem Barbarian) so anything that can deal other damage types can still hurt a barbarian same as anyone else.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
To mirror what was said above; mind-based Saving Throws are the Barbarian's natural enemy. There are plenty of tools to use that can not only incapacitate the bigbeefyboy, but also turn him against his allies for a bit! I'm not sure what your campaign looks like but try to throw in monsters with charming effects, as was already said.
And to reiterate again what was already said - it's no fun going into every encounter and having someone be perfectly set up to exploit your weaknesses. If the barb is doing TOO much then by all means, throw in some flying enemies, or people standing on rooftops or something that he can't easily get to. (Have spellcasters make difficult terrain, for example). But also remember that that's what the barb does. Whereas other classes have abilities and spells that usually can help outside combat to an extent, that hunk o'muscle is built solely for combat. Be sure to give him a few chances to shine as well.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
This is true, but most barbarians aren't going to be carting around that many throwing weapons, let alone a bow or other dedicated ranged weapon.
I mean, the Barbarian starting equipment contains 2 handaxes and 4 javelins, so there can be some rounds of rage maintained RAW. If the DM allows self harming (or, the more badass intimidating variant, alchemists fire put on yourself), rage can go for a long time.
Anyways, I just wanted to point out that rage does not end when a barb does no damage, but if a barb does not attack (or get damage).
thanks guys this is all great! I had been thinking about the mental stat saves etc, but as 6thlyranguard pointed out simply disabling him all the time would get frustrating even for me, lol. This has given me a lot to work with though i appreciate all the input! They're on their way to uncovering a coven of witches (which i am homebrewing based mostly off of night hags, but Was planning on giving the white haired one Death Glare, conveniently), so this will be a good opportunity for some rug pulling action, lol
Use Star Spawn once. Then watch the barb get overly cautious every combat that could possibly be one.
Since we don't know the character's actual stats and build choices I would hesitate to say anything fishy is going on. With point buy and Variant Human it is possible to have an 18 Str, 16 Con, and 14 Dex with the Polearm Master feat by level 5. With a spear and shield you have a minimum AC of 17 which is nothing to sneeze at, and you are attacking 3 times a turn with advantage and rage damage. If you assume a 60% hit chance then this theoretical character is doing just over 24 DPR after they get their rage up. If they go for a glaive and forgo the shield then they have a minimum AC of 15 and are doing over 26.8 DPR. Any magical items in the mix will just take things further from here. So I think building a character like the OP describes is quite possible.
As everyone has stated mental saves and conditions are the Achilles heel of any barbarian, particularly Bear Totem barbarians.
One thing I didn't see mentioned in the thread though is ambushing. If you win initiative against the barbarian you can pile on the damage before they rage and become resistant to damage. This is nice because it can really raise the stakes for the barbarian without completely shutting them down. This allows for a scene where the barbarian gets gut punched and then spits their blood out on the floor before going in swinging. This can also let the cleric/bard in the party really shine in the support role.
Also the barbarian is likely hyper specialized in combat and so it makes sense for them to shine there. You can use the exploration and social parts of an adventure to give opportunities for your other party members to shine. The bard and warlock for example I would expect to do really well in a social encounter where the barbarian will really struggle.