Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
In the 2014 rules, Bards had proficiencies in simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords.
In the 2024 rules, Bards are now only proficient in simple weapons. To me that seems unusual. What say you all?
This isn't news. We just went through multiple unearthed arcana documents for playtesting and this has been a given for a while now.
I'm okay with it. There are subclasses that grant weapon proficiencies for players who envision their bard a bit more martial oriented while while removing those allows for a bit less martial oriented bard. Honestly, the base class sucked for weapon damage with or without those proficiencies making them little more than a ribbon.
Yep. I'd just sit back with my shortbow or light crossbow and just truestrike. A sword would encourage me to risk hits I should not be taking.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
In the 2014 rules, Bards had proficiencies in simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords.
In the 2024 rules, Bards are now only proficient in simple weapons. To me that seems unusual. What say you all?
This isn't news. We just went through multiple unearthed arcana documents for playtesting and this has been a given for a while now.
I'm okay with it. There are subclasses that grant weapon proficiencies for players who envision their bard a bit more martial oriented while while removing those allows for a bit less martial oriented bard. Honestly, the base class sucked for weapon damage with or without those proficiencies making them little more than a ribbon.
Better damage cantrips easily makes up for it.
It may not have been news to you, but upon reading the brand new 2024 Player's Handbook it was the first time I had come across this. Given that it is still only available in early access, I'm sure I won't be alone.
Yes, the College of Valor does grant Martial Weapon proficiencies, but this is the same as the 2014 rules. For me it seems like Bards, being a class that is versatile in many skills (i.e. Jack of All Trades), would likely be proficient in swords, being the most common personal defense weapon. Seems like a Bard should be able to handle a sword but not necessarily less common Martial Weapons, unless they choose to specifically study them. To me it was a good balance to give Bards sword proficiencies with the option to add other Martial Weapons through the College of Valor. I'm not seeing that the Bard has picked up any new Cantrip abilities from the 2014 version except for College of Valor, so that doesn't seem to be relevant.
Yes, I know anyone can homebrew this or just use the 2014 version so it's not that big of a deal. And yet it still just seems ... odd.
In the 2014 rules, Bards had proficiencies in simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords.
In the 2024 rules, Bards are now only proficient in simple weapons. To me that seems unusual. What say you all?
This isn't news. We just went through multiple unearthed arcana documents for playtesting and this has been a given for a while now.
I'm okay with it. There are subclasses that grant weapon proficiencies for players who envision their bard a bit more martial oriented while while removing those allows for a bit less martial oriented bard. Honestly, the base class sucked for weapon damage with or without those proficiencies making them little more than a ribbon.
Better damage cantrips easily makes up for it.
It may not have been news to you, but upon reading the brand new 2024 Player's Handbook it was the first time I had come across this. Given that it is still only available in early access, I'm sure I won't be alone.
Yes, the College of Valor does grant Martial Weapon proficiencies, but this is the same as the 2014 rules. For me it seems like Bards, being a class that is versatile in many skills (i.e. Jack of All Trades), would likely be proficient in swords, being the most common personal defense weapon. Seems like a Bard should be able to handle a sword but not necessarily less common Martial Weapons, unless they choose to specifically study them. To me it was a good balance to give Bards sword proficiencies with the option to add other Martial Weapons through the College of Valor. I'm not seeing that the Bard has picked up any new Cantrip abilities from the 2014 version except for College of Valor, so that doesn't seem to be relevant.
Yes, I know anyone can homebrew this or just use the 2014 version so it's not that big of a deal. And yet it still just seems ... odd.
So you didn't participate in the process and give feedback, and now WotC did something of which you weren't aware? I can't blame WotC for your choice here. It's unfortunate that you and others missed it but that's kinda moot now. It's already been done and giving feedback now is too late.
Vicious mockery does more damage now, starry wisp is on the bard list, and the truestrike revamp works. Honestly, taking bladeward at 1st level and truestrike at 4th level makes sense for a more martial flavor for most bard colleges. It improves defense, allows for CHA as an attack stat with a weapon, and adds bonus damage. If you want to do the same damage then a spear, quarterstaff, or great club will do that and truestrike will let you use CHA with them.
Bards are missing hand crossbow cheese that took an investment or the versatile property of a long sword that required a STR investment. The changes to bard cantrips are better than the loss of some weapon proficiencies.
I think it makes the scimitar bonus proficiency for swords bards more meaningful as well giving short swords and rapiers are no longer bard weapons.
If you want something significant then jack of all trades now only applies to skills in which the character is not proficient instead of a general bonus to all proficiency checks without a proficiency bonus. That's significant.
If you want something else significant to complain about then losing song of rest is significant because that was a potential source of a significant amount of healing.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
The changes to bardic inspiration were less of a buff and more of a quality of life improvement. The design changes decreased the likelihood of unspent bonuses going to waste. Trading spell slots for bardic inspiration allows for more use of bardic inspiration but the spell slots are typically better used on spells. Recovering bardic inspiration dice when out is improved but still minor and still late game.
The changes to countercharm are also a quality of life improvement making the ability still situational but something that might actually get used often enough to justify it's existence.
The capstone is slightly better but it's more spells known for that very limited 9th level spell slot that will conflict with the magical secrets ability to take spells for that very limited 9th level spell slot.
The class took an overall nerf but the quality of life improvements make that palatable. It's still easily playable and still plays mostly like a 2014 bard. My point is I think the weapon proficiencies is not meaningful enough to be a concern. They were almost nothing more than a bit of flavor that can be picked up via subclass, multiclass, or a feat.
In the 2014 rules, Bards had proficiencies in simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords.
In the 2024 rules, Bards are now only proficient in simple weapons. To me that seems unusual. What say you all?
This isn't news. We just went through multiple unearthed arcana documents for playtesting and this has been a given for a while now.
I'm okay with it. There are subclasses that grant weapon proficiencies for players who envision their bard a bit more martial oriented while while removing those allows for a bit less martial oriented bard. Honestly, the base class sucked for weapon damage with or without those proficiencies making them little more than a ribbon.
Better damage cantrips easily makes up for it.
It may not have been news to you, but upon reading the brand new 2024 Player's Handbook it was the first time I had come across this. Given that it is still only available in early access, I'm sure I won't be alone.
Yes, the College of Valor does grant Martial Weapon proficiencies, but this is the same as the 2014 rules. For me it seems like Bards, being a class that is versatile in many skills (i.e. Jack of All Trades), would likely be proficient in swords, being the most common personal defense weapon. Seems like a Bard should be able to handle a sword but not necessarily less common Martial Weapons, unless they choose to specifically study them. To me it was a good balance to give Bards sword proficiencies with the option to add other Martial Weapons through the College of Valor. I'm not seeing that the Bard has picked up any new Cantrip abilities from the 2014 version except for College of Valor, so that doesn't seem to be relevant.
Yes, I know anyone can homebrew this or just use the 2014 version so it's not that big of a deal. And yet it still just seems ... odd.
Not really. It's a simplification of the rules really, and appears to be done on a more global basis; it's not just bards that got touched by this. Druids for example lost their iconic scimitars that they have had since 1e. What they've done, is gotten rid of outlier proficiencies. Now, you simply get simple or martial. The simple+ options that some classes like bards and druids had, appear to have fallen by the wayside. Even monks and rogues are getting simple and martials that have the light property. Nobody's really getting "and swords" anymore.
To me, this isn't an oversight, it's an obvious system wide design decision.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
The magical secrets option was also intentional, and was a global change. You can't use feats to snipe class specific spells anymore either. It's also a good change. It was BS that the bard could use magical secrets to snipe class specific spells to get them earlier than the class the spell was actually designed for. Bards are still living a very charmed life being able to steal from the wizard, cleric and druid lists.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists.
This is 6 spells from any list and 4 spells from the bard list. This is important because bards actually have good spells too and don't become obsolete just because more options are available. ;-)
Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists.
This is a change to magical secrets AND the class spell progression. So instead of learning 2 spells with magical secrets at 10 level and 1 bard spell at 11th level the bard learns 1 spell at 10th level under magical secrets and another at 11th level; but they have 1 more prepared spell outside of that from the bard list so they haven't gained anything. They've only lost access to several spell lists at that point and were slightly down at 10th level on access to other lists at all.
At 13th level the bard adds another spell with from those lists and again at 15th level. But the 2014 bard added both at 14th level with secrets and also added spells from the bard list. So a 14th level 2024 bard and a 2014 15th level bard have both only added 4 spells with access to secrets. The 2014 bard has also added some bard spells, however.
At 17th and 19th level the 2024 bard adds 2 more magical secrets but the 2014 adds 2 more magical secrets at level 18 plus another bard spell at level 17.
The advantage on the 2014 bard is they can grab a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell from another list one level earlier, but they haven't gained any actual extra spells known at that point and actually lost those bard spells known in the process as well as access to more lists. It's not until levels 19 and 20 that the 2024 bard has added more spells as magical secrets (8) but they lost adding 2 high level spells known in the process (8 instead of 10).
Gaining access to wish at 17th level and adding from other lists at those two levels means there isn't any significant benefit from the new secrets until tier 4. Any bard spell taken now means magical secrets did nothing. Using magical secrets as the main list instead of a bonus the way the old bard progression did limits the number of high level spells more. The option to trade bard spells known during level up exists but we have to assume the spells taken already were desirable spell too so trading them off is sidegrading with little benefit.
Overall, the 2014 version of magical secrets gave better access to high level spells and the impact was felt earlier because of more high level spells known at the time. Does that help clarify? :-)
The magical secrets option was also intentional, and was a global change. You can't use feats to snipe class specific spells anymore either. It's also a good change. It was BS that the bard could use magical secrets to snipe class specific spells to get them earlier than the class the spell was actually designed for. Bards are still living a very charmed life being able to steal from the wizard, cleric and druid lists.
Except magical secrets doesn't come online unto 10th level while those other classes already have the bulk of their spells by 9th level.
This argument has always been an edge case scenerio that requires a bard to take one of those spells that might be iconic to those classes and that spell be 4th or 5th level and somehow better than the plethora of other spells that the bard would take one with only those 2 spells known slots available. 10th level and 14th level were even the only opportunities to do such a thing.
IME, 10th level bards weren't typically jumping at paladin and ranger spells instead of wizard and cleric spells, let alone the iconic ones. 14th level bards even less so because 6th and 7th level spells didn't even exist on those other class's tables. It's literally "Oh no! There's a very off chance a 10th level bard might take a rare spell from my list that they probably don't want or need!" ;-)
If they don't want or need it, then it's not a problem for them to not have access. Everyone's happy, right?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists.
This is 6 spells from any list and 4 spells from the bard list. This is important because bards actually have good spells too and don't become obsolete just because more options are available. ;-)
Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists.
This is a change to magical secrets AND the class spell progression. So instead of learning 2 spells with magical secrets at 10 level and 1 bard spell at 11th level the bard learns 1 spell at 10th level under magical secrets and another at 11th level; but they have 1 more prepared spell outside of that from the bard list so they haven't gained anything. They've only lost access to several spell lists at that point and were slightly down at 10th level on access to other lists at all.
At 13th level the bard adds another spell with from those lists and again at 15th level. But the 2014 bard added both at 14th level with secrets and also added spells from the bard list. So a 14th level 2024 bard and a 2014 15th level bard have both only added 4 spells with access to secrets. The 2014 bard has also added some bard spells, however.
At 17th and 19th level the 2024 bard adds 2 more magical secrets but the 2014 adds 2 more magical secrets at level 18 plus another bard spell at level 17.
The advantage on the 2014 bard is they can grab a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell from another list one level earlier, but they haven't gained any actual extra spells known at that point and actually lost those bard spells known in the process as well as access to more lists. It's not until levels 19 and 20 that the 2024 bard has added more spells as magical secrets (8) but they lost adding 2 high level spells known in the process (8 instead of 10).
Gaining access to wish at 17th level and adding from other lists at those two levels means there isn't any significant benefit from the new secrets until tier 4. Any bard spell taken now means magical secrets did nothing. Using magical secrets as the main list instead of a bonus the way the old bard progression did limits the number of high level spells more. The option to trade bard spells known during level up exists but we have to assume the spells taken already were desirable spell too so trading them off is sidegrading with little benefit.
Overall, the 2014 version of magical secrets gave better access to high level spells and the impact was felt earlier because of more high level spells known at the time. Does that help clarify? :-)
I think you're underestimating the spell lists of wizards, clerics, and druids. Yes, bards get a nice list, but it's not THAT good. The 2014 bard could only get 6 spells from other lists total, the 2024 can get way more than that. Saying that a spell that you picked before was desirable, and therefore trading it off is "sidegrading with little benefit" is completely wrong. It is very possible that the reason you chose that spell is because you didn't have anything better on your list. Well, now you do, so now that spell isn't so desirable anymore. And maybe some spells were good back then, but not as good anymore at higher levels. So trading them off is also a big benefit. There's a reason why other casters can also replace their spells. Sometimes they're good when you learn them, but not so much later. The cleric, druid, and particularly wizard lists have really powerful and useful spells. Replacing bard spells with those is far from "sidegrading with little benefit".
You're also underestimating how good it is to get spells earlier. It's actually really good. Having a powerful spell a whole level earlier can have a big impact in a campaign. Not to mention that not all of them are one level earlier. 7th and 9th are, but 8th is 3 levels earlier. That's not a small thing. Same with 6th level spells, they come 3 levels earlier.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. That's a different topic. Both have good and bad things compared to the other. But you make it sound like the 2014 is objectively better, and the improvements of the 2024 one are minimal, and that's simply not true. Being able to get WAY more spells from other lists and getting them earlier is a really big benefit.
What he's saying is that the 2014 bard had better access to more spells. He's not wrong. Objectively, the bard has less access to magic than it had before.
What's being left unsaid that the 2014 bard was overtuned, and needed to be brought down. That's precisely what WotC did. I have no sympathy for bards being reigned in. Bards are still an excellent class, and one of the best classes in the game. I played one before, and I will play one again, because they are still amazing.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If they don't want or need it, then it's not a problem for them to not have access. Everyone's happy, right?
Exactly right. That's why I said, "That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available."
Looking at it from my point of view goes, "Oh noes!!! I can no longer take spells I did not need anyways!!!!" ;-)
The 2024 nerf to magical secrets isn't the loss of those other spell lists. Those are still a minor edge case argument. It's the slower access to gaining higher level spells known.
I think the whole "but I used to be able to learn x spell and now I can't" arguments I've seen are just as silly as "but the bard can steal x spell arguments", lol. Magical secrets has been blown out of proportion on both sides of that fence. If I wanted to play a paladin or ranger I would play a paladin or ranger. If I want a bard with just some qualities from another class I can still pick up spells like hex, hunter's mark, or wrathful smite with feats.
Losing those spell lists in magical secrets lost a few options that didn't really mean much in the overall class IME.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists.
This is 6 spells from any list and 4 spells from the bard list. This is important because bards actually have good spells too and don't become obsolete just because more options are available. ;-)
Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists.
This is a change to magical secrets AND the class spell progression. So instead of learning 2 spells with magical secrets at 10 level and 1 bard spell at 11th level the bard learns 1 spell at 10th level under magical secrets and another at 11th level; but they have 1 more prepared spell outside of that from the bard list so they haven't gained anything. They've only lost access to several spell lists at that point and were slightly down at 10th level on access to other lists at all.
At 13th level the bard adds another spell with from those lists and again at 15th level. But the 2014 bard added both at 14th level with secrets and also added spells from the bard list. So a 14th level 2024 bard and a 2014 15th level bard have both only added 4 spells with access to secrets. The 2014 bard has also added some bard spells, however.
At 17th and 19th level the 2024 bard adds 2 more magical secrets but the 2014 adds 2 more magical secrets at level 18 plus another bard spell at level 17.
The advantage on the 2014 bard is they can grab a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell from another list one level earlier, but they haven't gained any actual extra spells known at that point and actually lost those bard spells known in the process as well as access to more lists. It's not until levels 19 and 20 that the 2024 bard has added more spells as magical secrets (8) but they lost adding 2 high level spells known in the process (8 instead of 10).
Gaining access to wish at 17th level and adding from other lists at those two levels means there isn't any significant benefit from the new secrets until tier 4. Any bard spell taken now means magical secrets did nothing. Using magical secrets as the main list instead of a bonus the way the old bard progression did limits the number of high level spells more. The option to trade bard spells known during level up exists but we have to assume the spells taken already were desirable spell too so trading them off is sidegrading with little benefit.
Overall, the 2014 version of magical secrets gave better access to high level spells and the impact was felt earlier because of more high level spells known at the time. Does that help clarify? :-)
I think you're underestimating the spell lists of wizards, clerics, and druids. Yes, bards get a nice list, but it's not THAT good.
When I planned out my nightmare bard based on Alice Cooper I didn't even touch another list until 17th level. Everything I was taking through the leveling process was already on the bard list or the bard spell prep mechanic was preventing me from taking more spells anyway.
The only really spectacular thing about magical secrets is it gives access to wish. Other than that one 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell is generally similar in power to another 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell. There's no doubt that a bard has a lot to choose from, but there's still only so many they get to actually choose. ;-)
The 2014 bard could only get 6 spells from other lists total, the 2024 can get way more than that.
That's where you're moving into "that's not accurate" territory.
The 2014 bard gained access to 6 spells through secrets and 4 (also good) bard spells for 10 high level spells. The 2024 bard has to select the bard spells they want from among the 8 spells they get instead of 10, and those last 2 don't come until 19th and 20th level. A class trait that doesn't really give an advantage until 19th level doesn't come online soon enough to call it an improvement when the magical secrets structure from 2014 within the class progression gave more sooner.
We can get more but we're still giving up spells to do it and we could already do the from the (also good) bard list.
Getting back to my Alice Cooper inspired bard, I did want dark vision but couldn't fit it in until 19th level because the limited spell selection was full of spells I still wanted and needed for the concept.
Saying that a spell that you picked before was desirable, and therefore trading it off is "sidegrading with little benefit" is completely wrong.
It's absolutely not wrong. Bards only prep so many spells and it's not hard to find spells we want. Just because more options become available doesn't mean the options we already had became less desirable.
It is very possible that the reason you chose that spell is because you didn't have anything better on your list. Well, now you do, so now that spell isn't so desirable anymore.
That's some massive conjecture going on there. ;-)
Are you trying to convince me the bard spells are full of junk but bards have this powerful ability because they don't use their own spell list? And WotC doesn't give them spells they want or need until 10th level when they suddenly have more options? Bards are OP because their spells aren't as good as other classes? Bards are OP because they have the ability to not take as many spells from another class than that class can take on it's own?
Where's the logic there? It looks like you're saying magical secrets is so good because bard spells aren't worth comparing to another class. ;-)
And maybe some spells were good back then, but not as good anymore at higher levels.
Lotta maybe going on. Maybe those spells are still desirable? Maybe?
So trading them off is also a big benefit.
Which spells are you talking about that give this big benefit?
There's a reason why other casters can also replace their spells. Sometimes they're good when you learn them, but not so much later. The cleric, druid, and particularly wizard lists have really powerful and useful spells. Replacing bard spells with those is far from "sidegrading with little benefit".
Bards can replace their spells as they level too for the reason you just gave. The 2014 version of sleep outlived it's usefulness and was often replaced. Magical secrets isn't needed for that.
Those powerful spells are already graded by an estimated power level in the spell levels. Bards have up to 9th level spells just like clerics, druids, and wizards. Those other classes have powerful spells that a bard might want, but they aren't more powerful in general than what a bard has. What they might do is serve a function not available or fit a design concept.
The only thing I do by adding fireball and giving up suggestion is add one spell that does damage and lose one spell that useful in other ways.
You're also underestimating how good it is to get spells earlier. It's actually really good.
That's why it's an overall nerf in 2024. The 2024 magical secrets doesn't grant higher level spells earlier. Bards already got higher level spells at the same levels as other casters. It only grants limited access to other lists earlier. But the 2014 magical secrets granted more spells prepared sooner, which is where your own argument comes in.
Having a powerful spell a whole level earlier can have a big impact in a campaign. Not to mention that not all of them are one level earlier. 7th and 9th are, but 8th is 3 levels earlier. That's not a small thing. Same with 6th level spells, they come 3 levels earlier.
Nope. Bards already have worthwhile 6th level spells to take at 11th level. It's in their own list. But at 10th level they only get 1 spell instead of 2 now. That's a loss.that carries forward. The difference between 10th level thru 14th level is 6 spells known (4 secrets) in the 2014 version and 3 spells known in the 2024 version.
We can't argue that 3 high level spells prepared is somehow better than 6; just being from another list doesn't cut it.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. That's a different topic. Both have good and bad things compared to the other. But you make it sound like the 2014 is objectively better, and the improvements of the 2024 one are minimal, and that's simply not true. Being able to get WAY more spells from other lists and getting them earlier is a really big benefit.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
What he's saying is that the 2014 bard had better access to more spells. He's not wrong. Objectively, the bard has less access to magic than it had before.
What's being left unsaid that the 2014 bard was overtuned, and needed to be brought down. That's precisely what WotC did. I have no sympathy for bards being reigned in. Bards are still an excellent class, and one of the best classes in the game. I played one before, and I will play one again, because they are still amazing.
I think they were tuned up in this regard. There were a couple gimmicks they could do by taking a paladin spell but overall they are better off with a lot more spells from all the main lists. 19 spells with wiz/cleric/druid/bard versatility by 20 outweighs a paladin spell gimmick by far imo. so the loss of "less access" in the sense they no longer can pull form paladin, ranger, sorcerer, warlock, artificer lists i much more than made up for a huge increase in access by the number of off lists spells they can learn. I think just pure spell casting wise ignoring all other features they surpass wizards by level 15 or so. And they were never far behind them in just spell casting.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
Nah 2024 is objectively better and not by a small margin, the advantages far outweigh the negatives.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists.
This is 6 spells from any list and 4 spells from the bard list. This is important because bards actually have good spells too and don't become obsolete just because more options are available. ;-)
Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists.
This is a change to magical secrets AND the class spell progression. So instead of learning 2 spells with magical secrets at 10 level and 1 bard spell at 11th level the bard learns 1 spell at 10th level under magical secrets and another at 11th level; but they have 1 more prepared spell outside of that from the bard list so they haven't gained anything. They've only lost access to several spell lists at that point and were slightly down at 10th level on access to other lists at all.
At 13th level the bard adds another spell with from those lists and again at 15th level. But the 2014 bard added both at 14th level with secrets and also added spells from the bard list. So a 14th level 2024 bard and a 2014 15th level bard have both only added 4 spells with access to secrets. The 2014 bard has also added some bard spells, however.
At 17th and 19th level the 2024 bard adds 2 more magical secrets but the 2014 adds 2 more magical secrets at level 18 plus another bard spell at level 17.
The advantage on the 2014 bard is they can grab a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell from another list one level earlier, but they haven't gained any actual extra spells known at that point and actually lost those bard spells known in the process as well as access to more lists. It's not until levels 19 and 20 that the 2024 bard has added more spells as magical secrets (8) but they lost adding 2 high level spells known in the process (8 instead of 10).
Gaining access to wish at 17th level and adding from other lists at those two levels means there isn't any significant benefit from the new secrets until tier 4. Any bard spell taken now means magical secrets did nothing. Using magical secrets as the main list instead of a bonus the way the old bard progression did limits the number of high level spells more. The option to trade bard spells known during level up exists but we have to assume the spells taken already were desirable spell too so trading them off is sidegrading with little benefit.
Overall, the 2014 version of magical secrets gave better access to high level spells and the impact was felt earlier because of more high level spells known at the time. Does that help clarify? :-)
I think you're underestimating the spell lists of wizards, clerics, and druids. Yes, bards get a nice list, but it's not THAT good.
When I planned out my nightmare bard based on Alice Cooper I didn't even touch another list until 17th level. Everything I was taking through the leveling process was already on the bard list or the bard spell prep mechanic was preventing me from taking more spells anyway.
The only really spectacular thing about magical secrets is it gives access to wish. Other than that one 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell is generally similar in power to another 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell. There's no doubt that a bard has a lot to choose from, but there's still only so many they get to actually choose. ;-)
The 2014 bard could only get 6 spells from other lists total, the 2024 can get way more than that.
That's where you're moving into "that's not accurate" territory.
The 2014 bard gained access to 6 spells through secrets and 4 (also good) bard spells for 10 high level spells. The 2024 bard has to select the bard spells they want from among the 8 spells they get instead of 10, and those last 2 don't come until 19th and 20th level. A class trait that doesn't really give an advantage until 19th level doesn't come online soon enough to call it an improvement when the magical secrets structure from 2014 within the class progression gave more sooner.
We can get more but we're still giving up spells to do it and we could already do the from the (also good) bard list.
Getting back to my Alice Cooper inspired bard, I did want dark vision but couldn't fit it in until 19th level because the limited spell selection was full of spells I still wanted and needed for the concept.
Saying that a spell that you picked before was desirable, and therefore trading it off is "sidegrading with little benefit" is completely wrong.
It's absolutely not wrong. Bards only prep so many spells and it's not hard to find spells we want. Just because more options become available doesn't mean the options we already had became less desirable.
It is very possible that the reason you chose that spell is because you didn't have anything better on your list. Well, now you do, so now that spell isn't so desirable anymore.
That's some massive conjecture going on there. ;-)
Are you trying to convince me the bard spells are full of junk but bards have this powerful ability because they don't use their own spell list? And WotC doesn't give them spells they want or need until 10th level when they suddenly have more options? Bards are OP because their spells aren't as good as other classes? Bards are OP because they have the ability to not take as many spells from another class than that class can take on it's own?
Where's the logic there? It looks like you're saying magical secrets is so good because bard spells aren't worth comparing to another class. ;-)
And maybe some spells were good back then, but not as good anymore at higher levels.
Lotta maybe going on. Maybe those spells are still desirable? Maybe?
So trading them off is also a big benefit.
Which spells are you talking about that give this big benefit?
There's a reason why other casters can also replace their spells. Sometimes they're good when you learn them, but not so much later. The cleric, druid, and particularly wizard lists have really powerful and useful spells. Replacing bard spells with those is far from "sidegrading with little benefit".
Bards can replace their spells as they level too for the reason you just gave. The 2014 version of sleep outlived it's usefulness and was often replaced. Magical secrets isn't needed for that.
Those powerful spells are already graded by an estimated power level in the spell levels. Bards have up to 9th level spells just like clerics, druids, and wizards. Those other classes have powerful spells that a bard might want, but they aren't more powerful in general than what a bard has. What they might do is serve a function not available or fit a design concept.
The only thing I do by adding fireball and giving up suggestion is add one spell that does damage and lose one spell that useful in other ways.
You're also underestimating how good it is to get spells earlier. It's actually really good.
That's why it's an overall nerf in 2024. The 2024 magical secrets doesn't grant higher level spells earlier. Bards already got higher level spells at the same levels as other casters. It only grants limited access to other lists earlier. But the 2014 magical secrets granted more spells prepared sooner, which is where your own argument comes in.
Having a powerful spell a whole level earlier can have a big impact in a campaign. Not to mention that not all of them are one level earlier. 7th and 9th are, but 8th is 3 levels earlier. That's not a small thing. Same with 6th level spells, they come 3 levels earlier.
Nope. Bards already have worthwhile 6th level spells to take at 11th level. It's in their own list. But at 10th level they only get 1 spell instead of 2 now. That's a loss.that carries forward. The difference between 10th level thru 14th level is 6 spells known (4 secrets) in the 2014 version and 3 spells known in the 2024 version.
We can't argue that 3 high level spells prepared is somehow better than 6; just being from another list doesn't cut it.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. That's a different topic. Both have good and bad things compared to the other. But you make it sound like the 2014 is objectively better, and the improvements of the 2024 one are minimal, and that's simply not true. Being able to get WAY more spells from other lists and getting them earlier is a really big benefit.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
I'm not gonna reply to each point because this is getting ridiculous. And also, discussing with someone who uses arguments as "MY bard didn't touch another list until level 17" is getting in the realm of "I like the bard list, therefore having access to other lists isn't a big deal". We could argue pointlessly if we both do what you're doing, and I replied "The spells I used the most often, by far, were the ones of other lists." Pointless argument, so I'll ignore it.
It's fine if you like the bard list so much that you don't want other spells, but saying that nothing is a big deal until Wish is simply not true. Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Clone, Maze, Heal, Holy Aura, Conjure Minor Elementals, and others, they're all very powerful spells. If your bard decided they didn't like it, fine, but that's a very weak argument against these spells. The 2014 bard could only get 6 of them, and most of them at later levels.
Your argument is one of "quantity > quality", which I think is very questionable when it comes to spells. Nobody says bards don't get good spells, of course they do. But saying that their list is good enough to basically ignore all these spells and all others from these lists is ridiculous. "Bards can finds spells they want." Of course, every class does. You look at your list, see which ones are good enough for you, and then pick them. That doesn't mean the list is just as good as the other lists. It simply means that the list has spells that you'd like to cast. If your bard could learn spells from every list since level one, would you strictly stick to the bard list anyway? Apparently, yes, but you'd be a tiny minority, and for good reason.
But yeah, this has all come down to "I don't think the spells of those 3 lists are good enough to make me want to pick spells other than the ones in the bard list, except for Wish." Which is your opinion, and you can play your bard however you want. But saying that the power and usefulness of the bard list is basically the same as the wizard, cleric, and druid combined is something very few people will agree with.
What he's saying is that the 2014 bard had better access to more spells. He's not wrong. Objectively, the bard has less access to magic than it had before.
What's being left unsaid that the 2014 bard was overtuned, and needed to be brought down. That's precisely what WotC did. I have no sympathy for bards being reigned in. Bards are still an excellent class, and one of the best classes in the game. I played one before, and I will play one again, because they are still amazing.
I think they were tuned up in this regard. There were a couple gimmicks they could do by taking a paladin spell but overall they are better off with a lot more spells from all the main lists. 19 spells with wiz/cleric/druid/bard versatility by 20 outweighs a paladin spell gimmick by far imo. so the loss of "less access" in the sense they no longer can pull form paladin, ranger, sorcerer, warlock, artificer lists i much more than made up for a huge increase in access by the number of off lists spells they can learn. I think just pure spell casting wise ignoring all other features they surpass wizards by level 15 or so. And they were never far behind them in just spell casting.
That bolded part is still inaccurate. They learn up to 8 spells from the the bard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer list. They used to learn 10 spells from all the lists. Just those 4 lists is still definitely good enough but her is a chart to maybe make what I'm saying more clear.
Level
2014
2024
2014 Secrets
2024 Secrets
2014+Bard
2024+Bard
1
4
4
2
5
5
3
6
6
4
7
7
5
8
9
6
9
10
7
10
11
8
11
12
9
12
14
10
14
15
2
1
2
1
11
15
16
2
2
3
2
12
15
16
2
2
3
2
13
16
17
2
3
4
3
14
18
17
4
3
6
3
15
19
18
4
4
7
4
16
19
18
4
4
7
4
17
20
19
4
5
8
5
18
22
20
6
6
10
6
19
22
21
6
7
10
7
20
22
22
6
8
10
8
The year columns are just the spells known vs prepped. The next two columns show the magical secrets as they are gained. The final two columns combine the magical secrets gained with the class spells gained, which in the 2024 version this will be exactly the same as the magical secrets progression.
Because of the way 2014 magical secrets were structured outside of the class spells they added spells known relatively fast while moving into those high level spell slots. This is specifically because the 2014 system added bard spells known and magical secrets from other classes while the 2024 system only adds them inclusive of each other. Knowing three more high level spells with the 2014 version is better than knowing three less with the 2024 version.
It's true that the 2024 version can add more by swapping lower level spells for higher level spells, but the 2014 bard can also do that albeit limited to the bard spell list. Where this falls apart is there are only so many spells known to swap in the first place, and almost every bard spell is already on the cleric, druid, and wizard list already. The idea of swapping in many requires giving up spells already taken as I mentioned but it also leaves the character with limited spell selection in the bulk of their spell slots with lots of spells where they have very few slots. It makes no sense to do that because it will drastically cut into the versatility of the class by limiting the options of the bulk of the spell slots.
The character can only upgrade so many spells while the 2014 can still upgrade spells but has more high level spells added faster as demonstrated.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
Nah 2024 is objectively better and not by a small margin, the advantages far outweigh the negatives.
You can make statements and spout platitudes all you want. I just gave you quantifiable information that backs up what I'm saying. Show me your builds that prove your point or at least start with some of these spells that demonstrated it.
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In the 2014 rules, Bards had proficiencies in simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords.
In the 2024 rules, Bards are now only proficient in simple weapons. To me that seems unusual. What say you all?
It's a brave new world.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This isn't news. We just went through multiple unearthed arcana documents for playtesting and this has been a given for a while now.
I'm okay with it. There are subclasses that grant weapon proficiencies for players who envision their bard a bit more martial oriented while while removing those allows for a bit less martial oriented bard. Honestly, the base class sucked for weapon damage with or without those proficiencies making them little more than a ribbon.
Better damage cantrips easily makes up for it.
Yep. I'd just sit back with my shortbow or light crossbow and just truestrike. A sword would encourage me to risk hits I should not be taking.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It may not have been news to you, but upon reading the brand new 2024 Player's Handbook it was the first time I had come across this. Given that it is still only available in early access, I'm sure I won't be alone.
Yes, the College of Valor does grant Martial Weapon proficiencies, but this is the same as the 2014 rules. For me it seems like Bards, being a class that is versatile in many skills (i.e. Jack of All Trades), would likely be proficient in swords, being the most common personal defense weapon. Seems like a Bard should be able to handle a sword but not necessarily less common Martial Weapons, unless they choose to specifically study them. To me it was a good balance to give Bards sword proficiencies with the option to add other Martial Weapons through the College of Valor. I'm not seeing that the Bard has picked up any new Cantrip abilities from the 2014 version except for College of Valor, so that doesn't seem to be relevant.
Yes, I know anyone can homebrew this or just use the 2014 version so it's not that big of a deal. And yet it still just seems ... odd.
So you didn't participate in the process and give feedback, and now WotC did something of which you weren't aware? I can't blame WotC for your choice here. It's unfortunate that you and others missed it but that's kinda moot now. It's already been done and giving feedback now is too late.
Vicious mockery does more damage now, starry wisp is on the bard list, and the truestrike revamp works. Honestly, taking bladeward at 1st level and truestrike at 4th level makes sense for a more martial flavor for most bard colleges. It improves defense, allows for CHA as an attack stat with a weapon, and adds bonus damage. If you want to do the same damage then a spear, quarterstaff, or great club will do that and truestrike will let you use CHA with them.
Bards are missing hand crossbow cheese that took an investment or the versatile property of a long sword that required a STR investment. The changes to bard cantrips are better than the loss of some weapon proficiencies.
I think it makes the scimitar bonus proficiency for swords bards more meaningful as well giving short swords and rapiers are no longer bard weapons.
If you want something significant then jack of all trades now only applies to skills in which the character is not proficient instead of a general bonus to all proficiency checks without a proficiency bonus. That's significant.
If you want something else significant to complain about then losing song of rest is significant because that was a potential source of a significant amount of healing.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
The changes to bardic inspiration were less of a buff and more of a quality of life improvement. The design changes decreased the likelihood of unspent bonuses going to waste. Trading spell slots for bardic inspiration allows for more use of bardic inspiration but the spell slots are typically better used on spells. Recovering bardic inspiration dice when out is improved but still minor and still late game.
The changes to countercharm are also a quality of life improvement making the ability still situational but something that might actually get used often enough to justify it's existence.
The capstone is slightly better but it's more spells known for that very limited 9th level spell slot that will conflict with the magical secrets ability to take spells for that very limited 9th level spell slot.
The class took an overall nerf but the quality of life improvements make that palatable. It's still easily playable and still plays mostly like a 2014 bard. My point is I think the weapon proficiencies is not meaningful enough to be a concern. They were almost nothing more than a bit of flavor that can be picked up via subclass, multiclass, or a feat.
Not really. It's a simplification of the rules really, and appears to be done on a more global basis; it's not just bards that got touched by this. Druids for example lost their iconic scimitars that they have had since 1e. What they've done, is gotten rid of outlier proficiencies. Now, you simply get simple or martial. The simple+ options that some classes like bards and druids had, appear to have fallen by the wayside. Even monks and rogues are getting simple and martials that have the light property. Nobody's really getting "and swords" anymore.
To me, this isn't an oversight, it's an obvious system wide design decision.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
The magical secrets option was also intentional, and was a global change. You can't use feats to snipe class specific spells anymore either. It's also a good change. It was BS that the bard could use magical secrets to snipe class specific spells to get them earlier than the class the spell was actually designed for. Bards are still living a very charmed life being able to steal from the wizard, cleric and druid lists.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists.
This is 6 spells from any list and 4 spells from the bard list. This is important because bards actually have good spells too and don't become obsolete just because more options are available. ;-)
Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists.
This is a change to magical secrets AND the class spell progression. So instead of learning 2 spells with magical secrets at 10 level and 1 bard spell at 11th level the bard learns 1 spell at 10th level under magical secrets and another at 11th level; but they have 1 more prepared spell outside of that from the bard list so they haven't gained anything. They've only lost access to several spell lists at that point and were slightly down at 10th level on access to other lists at all.
At 13th level the bard adds another spell with from those lists and again at 15th level. But the 2014 bard added both at 14th level with secrets and also added spells from the bard list. So a 14th level 2024 bard and a 2014 15th level bard have both only added 4 spells with access to secrets. The 2014 bard has also added some bard spells, however.
At 17th and 19th level the 2024 bard adds 2 more magical secrets but the 2014 adds 2 more magical secrets at level 18 plus another bard spell at level 17.
The advantage on the 2014 bard is they can grab a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell from another list one level earlier, but they haven't gained any actual extra spells known at that point and actually lost those bard spells known in the process as well as access to more lists. It's not until levels 19 and 20 that the 2024 bard has added more spells as magical secrets (8) but they lost adding 2 high level spells known in the process (8 instead of 10).
Gaining access to wish at 17th level and adding from other lists at those two levels means there isn't any significant benefit from the new secrets until tier 4. Any bard spell taken now means magical secrets did nothing. Using magical secrets as the main list instead of a bonus the way the old bard progression did limits the number of high level spells more. The option to trade bard spells known during level up exists but we have to assume the spells taken already were desirable spell too so trading them off is sidegrading with little benefit.
Overall, the 2014 version of magical secrets gave better access to high level spells and the impact was felt earlier because of more high level spells known at the time. Does that help clarify? :-)
Except magical secrets doesn't come online unto 10th level while those other classes already have the bulk of their spells by 9th level.
This argument has always been an edge case scenerio that requires a bard to take one of those spells that might be iconic to those classes and that spell be 4th or 5th level and somehow better than the plethora of other spells that the bard would take one with only those 2 spells known slots available. 10th level and 14th level were even the only opportunities to do such a thing.
IME, 10th level bards weren't typically jumping at paladin and ranger spells instead of wizard and cleric spells, let alone the iconic ones. 14th level bards even less so because 6th and 7th level spells didn't even exist on those other class's tables. It's literally "Oh no! There's a very off chance a 10th level bard might take a rare spell from my list that they probably don't want or need!" ;-)
If they don't want or need it, then it's not a problem for them to not have access. Everyone's happy, right?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I think you're underestimating the spell lists of wizards, clerics, and druids. Yes, bards get a nice list, but it's not THAT good. The 2014 bard could only get 6 spells from other lists total, the 2024 can get way more than that. Saying that a spell that you picked before was desirable, and therefore trading it off is "sidegrading with little benefit" is completely wrong. It is very possible that the reason you chose that spell is because you didn't have anything better on your list. Well, now you do, so now that spell isn't so desirable anymore. And maybe some spells were good back then, but not as good anymore at higher levels. So trading them off is also a big benefit. There's a reason why other casters can also replace their spells. Sometimes they're good when you learn them, but not so much later. The cleric, druid, and particularly wizard lists have really powerful and useful spells. Replacing bard spells with those is far from "sidegrading with little benefit".
You're also underestimating how good it is to get spells earlier. It's actually really good. Having a powerful spell a whole level earlier can have a big impact in a campaign. Not to mention that not all of them are one level earlier. 7th and 9th are, but 8th is 3 levels earlier. That's not a small thing. Same with 6th level spells, they come 3 levels earlier.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. That's a different topic. Both have good and bad things compared to the other. But you make it sound like the 2014 is objectively better, and the improvements of the 2024 one are minimal, and that's simply not true. Being able to get WAY more spells from other lists and getting them earlier is a really big benefit.
I don't think that he's underestimating at all.
What he's saying is that the 2014 bard had better access to more spells. He's not wrong. Objectively, the bard has less access to magic than it had before.
What's being left unsaid that the 2014 bard was overtuned, and needed to be brought down. That's precisely what WotC did. I have no sympathy for bards being reigned in. Bards are still an excellent class, and one of the best classes in the game. I played one before, and I will play one again, because they are still amazing.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Exactly right. That's why I said, "That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available."
Looking at it from my point of view goes, "Oh noes!!! I can no longer take spells I did not need anyways!!!!" ;-)
The 2024 nerf to magical secrets isn't the loss of those other spell lists. Those are still a minor edge case argument. It's the slower access to gaining higher level spells known.
I think the whole "but I used to be able to learn x spell and now I can't" arguments I've seen are just as silly as "but the bard can steal x spell arguments", lol. Magical secrets has been blown out of proportion on both sides of that fence. If I wanted to play a paladin or ranger I would play a paladin or ranger. If I want a bard with just some qualities from another class I can still pick up spells like hex, hunter's mark, or wrathful smite with feats.
Losing those spell lists in magical secrets lost a few options that didn't really mean much in the overall class IME.
When I planned out my nightmare bard based on Alice Cooper I didn't even touch another list until 17th level. Everything I was taking through the leveling process was already on the bard list or the bard spell prep mechanic was preventing me from taking more spells anyway.
The only really spectacular thing about magical secrets is it gives access to wish. Other than that one 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell is generally similar in power to another 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell. There's no doubt that a bard has a lot to choose from, but there's still only so many they get to actually choose. ;-)
That's where you're moving into "that's not accurate" territory.
The 2014 bard gained access to 6 spells through secrets and 4 (also good) bard spells for 10 high level spells. The 2024 bard has to select the bard spells they want from among the 8 spells they get instead of 10, and those last 2 don't come until 19th and 20th level. A class trait that doesn't really give an advantage until 19th level doesn't come online soon enough to call it an improvement when the magical secrets structure from 2014 within the class progression gave more sooner.
We can get more but we're still giving up spells to do it and we could already do the from the (also good) bard list.
Getting back to my Alice Cooper inspired bard, I did want dark vision but couldn't fit it in until 19th level because the limited spell selection was full of spells I still wanted and needed for the concept.
It's absolutely not wrong. Bards only prep so many spells and it's not hard to find spells we want. Just because more options become available doesn't mean the options we already had became less desirable.
That's some massive conjecture going on there. ;-)
Are you trying to convince me the bard spells are full of junk but bards have this powerful ability because they don't use their own spell list? And WotC doesn't give them spells they want or need until 10th level when they suddenly have more options? Bards are OP because their spells aren't as good as other classes? Bards are OP because they have the ability to not take as many spells from another class than that class can take on it's own?
Where's the logic there? It looks like you're saying magical secrets is so good because bard spells aren't worth comparing to another class. ;-)
Lotta maybe going on. Maybe those spells are still desirable? Maybe?
Which spells are you talking about that give this big benefit?
Bards can replace their spells as they level too for the reason you just gave. The 2014 version of sleep outlived it's usefulness and was often replaced. Magical secrets isn't needed for that.
Those powerful spells are already graded by an estimated power level in the spell levels. Bards have up to 9th level spells just like clerics, druids, and wizards. Those other classes have powerful spells that a bard might want, but they aren't more powerful in general than what a bard has. What they might do is serve a function not available or fit a design concept.
The only thing I do by adding fireball and giving up suggestion is add one spell that does damage and lose one spell that useful in other ways.
That's why it's an overall nerf in 2024. The 2024 magical secrets doesn't grant higher level spells earlier. Bards already got higher level spells at the same levels as other casters. It only grants limited access to other lists earlier. But the 2014 magical secrets granted more spells prepared sooner, which is where your own argument comes in.
Nope. Bards already have worthwhile 6th level spells to take at 11th level. It's in their own list. But at 10th level they only get 1 spell instead of 2 now. That's a loss.that carries forward. The difference between 10th level thru 14th level is 6 spells known (4 secrets) in the 2014 version and 3 spells known in the 2024 version.
We can't argue that 3 high level spells prepared is somehow better than 6; just being from another list doesn't cut it.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
I think they were tuned up in this regard. There were a couple gimmicks they could do by taking a paladin spell but overall they are better off with a lot more spells from all the main lists. 19 spells with wiz/cleric/druid/bard versatility by 20 outweighs a paladin spell gimmick by far imo. so the loss of "less access" in the sense they no longer can pull form paladin, ranger, sorcerer, warlock, artificer lists i much more than made up for a huge increase in access by the number of off lists spells they can learn. I think just pure spell casting wise ignoring all other features they surpass wizards by level 15 or so. And they were never far behind them in just spell casting.
Nah 2024 is objectively better and not by a small margin, the advantages far outweigh the negatives.
I'm not gonna reply to each point because this is getting ridiculous. And also, discussing with someone who uses arguments as "MY bard didn't touch another list until level 17" is getting in the realm of "I like the bard list, therefore having access to other lists isn't a big deal". We could argue pointlessly if we both do what you're doing, and I replied "The spells I used the most often, by far, were the ones of other lists." Pointless argument, so I'll ignore it.
It's fine if you like the bard list so much that you don't want other spells, but saying that nothing is a big deal until Wish is simply not true. Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Clone, Maze, Heal, Holy Aura, Conjure Minor Elementals, and others, they're all very powerful spells. If your bard decided they didn't like it, fine, but that's a very weak argument against these spells. The 2014 bard could only get 6 of them, and most of them at later levels.
Your argument is one of "quantity > quality", which I think is very questionable when it comes to spells. Nobody says bards don't get good spells, of course they do. But saying that their list is good enough to basically ignore all these spells and all others from these lists is ridiculous. "Bards can finds spells they want." Of course, every class does. You look at your list, see which ones are good enough for you, and then pick them. That doesn't mean the list is just as good as the other lists. It simply means that the list has spells that you'd like to cast. If your bard could learn spells from every list since level one, would you strictly stick to the bard list anyway? Apparently, yes, but you'd be a tiny minority, and for good reason.
But yeah, this has all come down to "I don't think the spells of those 3 lists are good enough to make me want to pick spells other than the ones in the bard list, except for Wish." Which is your opinion, and you can play your bard however you want. But saying that the power and usefulness of the bard list is basically the same as the wizard, cleric, and druid combined is something very few people will agree with.
That bolded part is still inaccurate. They learn up to 8 spells from the the bard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer list. They used to learn 10 spells from all the lists. Just those 4 lists is still definitely good enough but her is a chart to maybe make what I'm saying more clear.
The year columns are just the spells known vs prepped. The next two columns show the magical secrets as they are gained. The final two columns combine the magical secrets gained with the class spells gained, which in the 2024 version this will be exactly the same as the magical secrets progression.
Because of the way 2014 magical secrets were structured outside of the class spells they added spells known relatively fast while moving into those high level spell slots. This is specifically because the 2014 system added bard spells known and magical secrets from other classes while the 2024 system only adds them inclusive of each other. Knowing three more high level spells with the 2014 version is better than knowing three less with the 2024 version.
It's true that the 2024 version can add more by swapping lower level spells for higher level spells, but the 2014 bard can also do that albeit limited to the bard spell list. Where this falls apart is there are only so many spells known to swap in the first place, and almost every bard spell is already on the cleric, druid, and wizard list already. The idea of swapping in many requires giving up spells already taken as I mentioned but it also leaves the character with limited spell selection in the bulk of their spell slots with lots of spells where they have very few slots. It makes no sense to do that because it will drastically cut into the versatility of the class by limiting the options of the bulk of the spell slots.
The character can only upgrade so many spells while the 2014 can still upgrade spells but has more high level spells added faster as demonstrated.
You can make statements and spout platitudes all you want. I just gave you quantifiable information that backs up what I'm saying. Show me your builds that prove your point or at least start with some of these spells that demonstrated it.