I would rule that an object is still an object unless the feature specifically says it is now considered to be native part of the creature. "Integrated" is flavor text; the description of the "Integrated Protection" feature does not explicitly say the armor object is no longer an object, just that armor cannot be removed without the Warforged's consent and that it takes an hour to doff. This is a game mechanic, not a nuanced legal document that requires lawyering. Additional examples where an object is "integrated", but are still targetable items are the Prosthetic Limb and Ersatz Eye.
Back to the OP subject: In my opinion, a Class feature supersedes a Racial feature. It takes a Warforged an hour to don/doff armor, it takes a non-Warforged 1-10 minutes to don and 1-5 minutes to doff. Arcane Armor changes that inherent mechanic to be just an action to don/doff. Therefore, Warforged Armorer only requires an action to don/doff armor instead of an hour.
This is the BEST answer and explanation for me so far
I was leaning towards the single action to don/doff until I carefully reread both rules. Intergrated protection says you MUST spend and hour to don and you MUST spend an hour to doff. Arcane Armor says you CAN don/doff as an action. I would argue that with RAW, "must" overrides "can".
Related question that might have a bearing on this topic.
TCE pg15 under 'Arcane Armor' section "You gain the following benefits while wearing this armor:" and the forth bullet point "You can doff or don the armor as an action."
So if you are wearing the Arcane Armor you can doff (to do off) the armor as an action, but if you are not wearing the Arcane Armor you can't don (to do on) the armor as an action.
Interpretation 1: The action removes the armor the same as if you had spent 5-10 min doing so, you have a pile of armor on the floor and the feature to "don" is impossible.
Interpretation 2: The action doffs the armor in a way that you are still "wearing it", but you gain neither benefits (AC, damage resistance, ect) or penalties (Disadvantage on Stealth checks, weight, ect) and presumably you appear to be unarmored. (could be stored in an extradimensional space, on the astral plane, absorbed into the skin, turned into nanobots like Iron Man)
If a Warforged spends an hour putting on armor, it would make sense that Arcane Armor would not override Integrated Protection but allow it to turn on and off the features of the armor.
As for Heat Metal, if you can heat the Warforged because it's a "manufactured metal object" then you can heat a Warforged's Integrated Protection, but IMO the armor is a part of it.
Personally I'm disappointed the Armorer subclass didn't use the (10+Int+Dex+Shield) system, or a similar (10+Int+Dex[max 2]+Infusion[1/2/3]+Shield) and focused the subclass on aggro skills. Fighting Style [Defense, Interception, or Protection], shield abilities like stunning strike, modify how creatures perceive damage you inflict. It's name implies it's the Tank subclass.
I made this 100% original character called Tomy Shark, his family made their money selling enchanted weapons during the goblin war. When Tomy was taken hostage by the goblins he was horrified to find out they had crates of Shark weapons, sold to them by his business partner. So he made his Arcane Armor (steampunk) and decided to become the weapon so he could be in control of how and when his weapon was used. @ Level 10 he has Enhanced Armor, Enhanced Weapon, Flying Boots and Helm of Telepathy. I don't think anyone has ever thought to play a character like this after reading the Arcane Armorer subclass.
Specific overrides general, so the ability to don and doff Arcane Armor as an action overrides the time it takes to put it on/take it off from Integrated Protection.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Specific overrides general, so the ability to don and doff Arcane Armor as an action overrides the time it takes to put it on/take it off from Integrated Protection.
They're both specific exceptions to the general rule on donning and doffing armor.
Integrated Protection is a racial ability that applies to all armors and all warforged. Arcane Armor is a class feature that applies only to the Armorer Artificer and only to a single suit of armor, making it a more specific exemption.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If Integrated Protection applies to all armors, then by definition it applies to the Arcane Armor. Look at the Tortle. Under it's Natural Armor feature is the following sentence.
You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
This means they can gain no benefit from wearing even the Arcane Armor. For the sake of consistency, I place racial traits over class features.
The warforged starts off with integrated armor from the start. Then the warforged becomes an artificer at level one, then the warforged artificer becomes an armorer. This means the arcane armor overrides integrated armor as it changes the rule. It can’t go the other way as integrated armor is a race feature. It makes sense from a lore perspective as well as a mechanics perspective.
My point is both are specific overrides of the general rule. They clash, with no clear-cut answer, so the DM needs to adjudicate.
If you think that Integrated Protection is a general rule that can be overridden, then the same logic applies to any and all other racial traits. I don't think it is, but others are free to disagree. I only ask that people be consistent in their application of the rules.
If Integrated Protection applies to all armors, then by definition it applies to the Arcane Armor. Look at the Tortle. Under it's Natural Armor feature is the following sentence.
You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
This means they can gain no benefit from wearing even the Arcane Armor. For the sake of consistency, I place racial traits over class features.
So you think Tabaxi Monks can only do 1d4 damage unarmed regardless of the Monk Martial Arts?
Obviously not, and it is a similar situation here. Once the Warforged Artificer Armorer spends the 1 hour to don the armor, and the action to turn the armor into Arcane Armor, they can now don/doff the armor with an action per the Armorer ability.
Also, as a note, Warforged have Integrated Protection which allows them to wear armor. Tortle, on the other hand, have the Natural Armor ability which actively prevents them from benefiting from armor. Completely different in my opinion. A Tortle Armorer Artificer, for instance, may be able to mechanically put on a suit of armor and make it Arcane Armor, and even don/doff said armor with an Action, but per Natural Armor they gain no benefit from it.
Also also, Integrated Protection still applies. Only the don/doff times of the rule are affected by the Arcane Armor benefit; the Warforged still gets the +1 AC as well.
So if you are wearing the Arcane Armor you can doff (to do off) the armor as an action, but if you are not wearing the Arcane Armor you can't don (to do on) the armor as an action.
The rule for the ability says the armor remains Arcane Armor until you don another suit of armor or you die. Therefore, after you doff the armor, it is still your Arcane Armor and you may don it with an Action.
If Integrated Protection applies to all armors, then by definition it applies to the Arcane Armor. Look at the Tortle. Under it's Natural Armor feature is the following sentence.
You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
This means they can gain no benefit from wearing even the Arcane Armor. For the sake of consistency, I place racial traits over class features.
So you think Tabaxi Monks can only do 1d4 damage unarmed regardless of the Monk Martial Arts?
Obviously not, and it is a similar situation here. Once the Warforged Artificer Armorer spends the 1 hour to don the armor, and the action to turn the armor into Arcane Armor, they can now don/doff the armor with an action per the Armorer ability.
Also, as a note, Warforged have Integrated Protection which allows them to wear armor. Tortle, on the other hand, have the Natural Armor ability which actively prevents them from benefiting from armor. Completely different in my opinion. A Tortle Armorer Artificer, for instance, may be able to mechanically put on a suit of armor and make it Arcane Armor, and even don/doff said armor with an Action, but per Natural Armor they gain no benefit from it.
Also also, Integrated Protection still applies. Only the don/doff times of the rule are affected by the Arcane Armor benefit; the Warforged still gets the +1 AC as well.
Don't build strawmen. They'll only find them immolated.
Every single race which has a Natural Weapon provides a specific override. Cat's Claws, the Tabaxi trait, grants them an Unarmed Strike which does slashing damage. Martial Arts, the Monk's feature, grants a die instead of the default 1 for an Unarmed Strike. But that's still bludgeoning damage. If we were instead talking about a 1st-level Minotaur Monk, such a character would have a choice between dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage or 1d6 piercing damage; plus their Dexterity modifier. The overrides don't clash. They give new options.
Integrated Protection and Arcane Armor both specifically modify the general rule on how armor is donned and doffed. Specific beats general, but there's no guidance on what to do when there are two conflicting rules. No word from on high as to which should take priority. No RAW or "stack" telling you which comes first. There's not even a Sage Advice article on this, and it's been more than two years.
So, as I said, it's left for the DM to adjudicate. There's no right or wrong answer.
If Integrated Protection applies to all armors, then by definition it applies to the Arcane Armor. Look at the Tortle. Under it's Natural Armor feature is the following sentence.
You gain no benefit from wearing armor, but if you are using a shield, you can apply the shield’s bonus as normal.
This means they can gain no benefit from wearing even the Arcane Armor. For the sake of consistency, I place racial traits over class features.
So you think Tabaxi Monks can only do 1d4 damage unarmed regardless of the Monk Martial Arts?
Obviously not, and it is a similar situation here. Once the Warforged Artificer Armorer spends the 1 hour to don the armor, and the action to turn the armor into Arcane Armor, they can now don/doff the armor with an action per the Armorer ability.
Also, as a note, Warforged have Integrated Protection which allows them to wear armor. Tortle, on the other hand, have the Natural Armor ability which actively prevents them from benefiting from armor. Completely different in my opinion. A Tortle Armorer Artificer, for instance, may be able to mechanically put on a suit of armor and make it Arcane Armor, and even don/doff said armor with an Action, but per Natural Armor they gain no benefit from it.
Also also, Integrated Protection still applies. Only the don/doff times of the rule are affected by the Arcane Armor benefit; the Warforged still gets the +1 AC as well.
Don't build strawmen. They'll only find them immolated.
Every single race which has a Natural Weapon provides a specific override. Cat's Claws, the Tabaxi trait, grants them an Unarmed Strike which does slashing damage. Martial Arts, the Monk's feature, grants a die instead of the default 1 for an Unarmed Strike. But that's still bludgeoning damage. If we were instead talking about a 1st-level Minotaur Monk, such a character would have a choice between dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage or 1d6 piercing damage; plus their Dexterity modifier. The overrides don't clash. They give new options.
Integrated Protection and Arcane Armor both specifically modify the general rule on how armor is donned and doffed. Specific beats general, but there's no guidance on what to do when there are two conflicting rules. No word from on high as to which should take priority. No RAW or "stack" telling you which comes first. There's not even a Sage Advice article on this, and it's been more than two years.
So, as I said, it's left for the DM to adjudicate. There's no right or wrong answer.
I think you are overcomplicating it. Integrated Protection, sets the standard for the race on don/doff armor, similar to how there is already a rule for non-warforged. Arcane Armor changes that don/doff time to be an Action. It isn't any more complicated than that. Think of it as a magic item attribute (as it is a characteristic of the Armor, now turned into Arcane Armor) instead of an inherent class/character ability if that helps.
I suppose my question is what specifically we are arguing about? Are we arguing that the Artificer feature overwrites the Warforged feature (in which case you lose the +1 ac as well) or that the the Artificer feature modifies the Integrated armor feature (simply replacing the don/doff time but keeping the +1 ac)? It seems that we want to keep the feature but lose the drawback, which is fine, but seems in DM ruling territory at this point. RAW will likely not reach that result.
On a side note, what is the main issue with don/doff time that makes this a big gameplay issue? I have been in campaigns where characters fall off a boat or something similar (which the Warforged doesn't care about any way), and heat metal (which lasts up to a minute. However I almost never have combat last 10 rounds).
I could see a DM ruling either way, but what is the gameplay problem we are trying to solve?
(I would personally rule in favor of the player in this situation, as I don't see it as overpowered or likely to effect combat much)
Odds are it wouldn't come up very often. The only times that come to mind are when changing armor under a time crunch. Xanathar's has rules for sleeping in armor, which is the big one. And why my characters all have a backup set of light armor for sleeping in. But warforged don't have this problem, as they don't need to sleep, and an armorer can just don theirs as an action. Technically, elves don't need to sleep either so I guess this rule doesn't affect them, either.
Now, the cool thing about Integrated Protection is it can be done as part of a rest. Which means a warforged can don/doff as part of a short rest, or do both several times during a long rest. And I cant think of a time when they'd want to take it off. I mean, they could. But spending an action to step out and avoid damage from heat metal is a wasted economy that leaves you disadvantaged.
When I originally made this thread, I was thinking more of RP than specific mechanical situations. I liked the idea of this robot having its Battle/Armoured form, as well as its more casual unarmoured form, and being able to switch between them quickly as needed. I haven't played this character in a campaign, though I agree that it'd need to be ruled by the DM.
Personally, I still like the idea that the initial don of the armour would take the full hour. Then it would be converted to arcane armour and can then be donned/doffed with an action, in which case it would retract into the Warforged or an amulet or something. Perhaps it'd also take the hour to fully doff the armour if you intend to sell it or something.
You mention something very important that is not covered anywhere, as the armor don/doff in one action how it does it? does it turn into a bracelet or the armor opens up or its part of ur body like nanobots? i would go for your idea of turning into an accessory or something like that
I imagine there are plenty of ways to flavour it depending on the character. Retracting it into an accessory, the nanobots idea, and a transformer style change for warforged. You could even have it open up like earlier iron man suits so you can just step in/out of it.
it is the final bullet point effect for the Arcane Armor feature itself.
This is the BEST answer and explanation for me so far
I was leaning towards the single action to don/doff until I carefully reread both rules. Intergrated protection says you MUST spend and hour to don and you MUST spend an hour to doff. Arcane Armor says you CAN don/doff as an action. I would argue that with RAW, "must" overrides "can".
The "must" is to override the don/doff rules of a fleshbag. Just like a fleshbag "must" take 1-10 minutes to don and must take 1-5 minutes to doff.
The Arcane Armor "can" appends the racial trait to give a second option.
Related question that might have a bearing on this topic.
TCE pg15 under 'Arcane Armor' section "You gain the following benefits while wearing this armor:" and the forth bullet point "You can doff or don the armor as an action."
So if you are wearing the Arcane Armor you can doff (to do off) the armor as an action, but if you are not wearing the Arcane Armor you can't don (to do on) the armor as an action.
Interpretation 1: The action removes the armor the same as if you had spent 5-10 min doing so, you have a pile of armor on the floor and the feature to "don" is impossible.
Interpretation 2: The action doffs the armor in a way that you are still "wearing it", but you gain neither benefits (AC, damage resistance, ect) or penalties (Disadvantage on Stealth checks, weight, ect) and presumably you appear to be unarmored. (could be stored in an extradimensional space, on the astral plane, absorbed into the skin, turned into nanobots like Iron Man)
If a Warforged spends an hour putting on armor, it would make sense that Arcane Armor would not override Integrated Protection but allow it to turn on and off the features of the armor.
As for Heat Metal, if you can heat the Warforged because it's a "manufactured metal object" then you can heat a Warforged's Integrated Protection, but IMO the armor is a part of it.
Personally I'm disappointed the Armorer subclass didn't use the (10+Int+Dex+Shield) system, or a similar (10+Int+Dex[max 2]+Infusion[1/2/3]+Shield) and focused the subclass on aggro skills. Fighting Style [Defense, Interception, or Protection], shield abilities like stunning strike, modify how creatures perceive damage you inflict. It's name implies it's the Tank subclass.
I made this 100% original character called Tomy Shark, his family made their money selling enchanted weapons during the goblin war. When Tomy was taken hostage by the goblins he was horrified to find out they had crates of Shark weapons, sold to them by his business partner. So he made his Arcane Armor (steampunk) and decided to become the weapon so he could be in control of how and when his weapon was used. @ Level 10 he has Enhanced Armor, Enhanced Weapon, Flying Boots and Helm of Telepathy. I don't think anyone has ever thought to play a character like this after reading the Arcane Armorer subclass.
Specific overrides general, so the ability to don and doff Arcane Armor as an action overrides the time it takes to put it on/take it off from Integrated Protection.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
They're both specific exceptions to the general rule on donning and doffing armor.
Integrated Protection is a racial ability that applies to all armors and all warforged. Arcane Armor is a class feature that applies only to the Armorer Artificer and only to a single suit of armor, making it a more specific exemption.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If Integrated Protection applies to all armors, then by definition it applies to the Arcane Armor. Look at the Tortle. Under it's Natural Armor feature is the following sentence.
This means they can gain no benefit from wearing even the Arcane Armor. For the sake of consistency, I place racial traits over class features.
The warforged starts off with integrated armor from the start. Then the warforged becomes an artificer at level one, then the warforged artificer becomes an armorer. This means the arcane armor overrides integrated armor as it changes the rule. It can’t go the other way as integrated armor is a race feature. It makes sense from a lore perspective as well as a mechanics perspective.
My point is both are specific overrides of the general rule. They clash, with no clear-cut answer, so the DM needs to adjudicate.
If you think that Integrated Protection is a general rule that can be overridden, then the same logic applies to any and all other racial traits. I don't think it is, but others are free to disagree. I only ask that people be consistent in their application of the rules.
So you think Tabaxi Monks can only do 1d4 damage unarmed regardless of the Monk Martial Arts?
Obviously not, and it is a similar situation here. Once the Warforged Artificer Armorer spends the 1 hour to don the armor, and the action to turn the armor into Arcane Armor, they can now don/doff the armor with an action per the Armorer ability.
Also, as a note, Warforged have Integrated Protection which allows them to wear armor. Tortle, on the other hand, have the Natural Armor ability which actively prevents them from benefiting from armor. Completely different in my opinion. A Tortle Armorer Artificer, for instance, may be able to mechanically put on a suit of armor and make it Arcane Armor, and even don/doff said armor with an Action, but per Natural Armor they gain no benefit from it.
Also also, Integrated Protection still applies. Only the don/doff times of the rule are affected by the Arcane Armor benefit; the Warforged still gets the +1 AC as well.
The rule for the ability says the armor remains Arcane Armor until you don another suit of armor or you die. Therefore, after you doff the armor, it is still your Arcane Armor and you may don it with an Action.
Don't build strawmen. They'll only find them immolated.
Every single race which has a Natural Weapon provides a specific override. Cat's Claws, the Tabaxi trait, grants them an Unarmed Strike which does slashing damage. Martial Arts, the Monk's feature, grants a die instead of the default 1 for an Unarmed Strike. But that's still bludgeoning damage. If we were instead talking about a 1st-level Minotaur Monk, such a character would have a choice between dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage or 1d6 piercing damage; plus their Dexterity modifier. The overrides don't clash. They give new options.
Integrated Protection and Arcane Armor both specifically modify the general rule on how armor is donned and doffed. Specific beats general, but there's no guidance on what to do when there are two conflicting rules. No word from on high as to which should take priority. No RAW or "stack" telling you which comes first. There's not even a Sage Advice article on this, and it's been more than two years.
So, as I said, it's left for the DM to adjudicate. There's no right or wrong answer.
I think you are overcomplicating it. Integrated Protection, sets the standard for the race on don/doff armor, similar to how there is already a rule for non-warforged. Arcane Armor changes that don/doff time to be an Action. It isn't any more complicated than that. Think of it as a magic item attribute (as it is a characteristic of the Armor, now turned into Arcane Armor) instead of an inherent class/character ability if that helps.
I suppose my question is what specifically we are arguing about? Are we arguing that the Artificer feature overwrites the Warforged feature (in which case you lose the +1 ac as well) or that the the Artificer feature modifies the Integrated armor feature (simply replacing the don/doff time but keeping the +1 ac)? It seems that we want to keep the feature but lose the drawback, which is fine, but seems in DM ruling territory at this point. RAW will likely not reach that result.
On a side note, what is the main issue with don/doff time that makes this a big gameplay issue? I have been in campaigns where characters fall off a boat or something similar (which the Warforged doesn't care about any way), and heat metal (which lasts up to a minute. However I almost never have combat last 10 rounds).
I could see a DM ruling either way, but what is the gameplay problem we are trying to solve?
(I would personally rule in favor of the player in this situation, as I don't see it as overpowered or likely to effect combat much)
Odds are it wouldn't come up very often. The only times that come to mind are when changing armor under a time crunch. Xanathar's has rules for sleeping in armor, which is the big one. And why my characters all have a backup set of light armor for sleeping in. But warforged don't have this problem, as they don't need to sleep, and an armorer can just don theirs as an action. Technically, elves don't need to sleep either so I guess this rule doesn't affect them, either.
Now, the cool thing about Integrated Protection is it can be done as part of a rest. Which means a warforged can don/doff as part of a short rest, or do both several times during a long rest. And I cant think of a time when they'd want to take it off. I mean, they could. But spending an action to step out and avoid damage from heat metal is a wasted economy that leaves you disadvantaged.
When I originally made this thread, I was thinking more of RP than specific mechanical situations. I liked the idea of this robot having its Battle/Armoured form, as well as its more casual unarmoured form, and being able to switch between them quickly as needed. I haven't played this character in a campaign, though I agree that it'd need to be ruled by the DM.
Personally, I still like the idea that the initial don of the armour would take the full hour. Then it would be converted to arcane armour and can then be donned/doffed with an action, in which case it would retract into the Warforged or an amulet or something. Perhaps it'd also take the hour to fully doff the armour if you intend to sell it or something.
How to add tooltips on dndbeyond
You mention something very important that is not covered anywhere, as the armor don/doff in one action how it does it? does it turn into a bracelet or the armor opens up or its part of ur body like nanobots? i would go for your idea of turning into an accessory or something like that
I imagine there are plenty of ways to flavour it depending on the character. Retracting it into an accessory, the nanobots idea, and a transformer style change for warforged. You could even have it open up like earlier iron man suits so you can just step in/out of it.
How to add tooltips on dndbeyond