It is a very locked in niche subclass that is very underpowered when compared to others.
The sad part is I'm playing one now and still trying to find stuff to do that isn't. hope the elixer does something and isn't completely pointless. Maybe it gets better later.
Artificers are still a super adaptable and fun class in their own right, even ignoring the subclass-specific features. Hopefully knowing what the Elixirs are ahead of time helps to be able to use them more consistently, but if you get to playing and just really don't find yourself enjoying the subclass you should talk to your DM about changing to another Subclass. Whether it's through retconning some of your character details, or by roleplaying your character investing time and study to do something else... like if you had a story arc where you actually took the time to build a Steel Defender and use that as the justification for why you're a Battlesmith now.
But yeah, you kind of have to go in wanting to be the team medic ahead of time to really get the most out of Alchemist, and if that's not what you had in mind it'll be hard to force it.
The alchemist is a pair of shoes that don't fit quite right and you hope one day you'll break them in to be more comfortable.
Experimental Elixir is semi strangled by it's action economy, weird randomness, and the Artificer's half caster spell slots.
Alchemical Savant is a feature of many hidden butts buts.
You get to apply it to necrotic damage spell... but you only have one spell that does necrotic damage. You can apply a bonus to any spell that restores hp... but it must restore hp with a roll. You can apply a bonus to multiple targets that are affected by one damage roll... but you have very few spells that affect multiple targets with damage and the ones that do have very limited AOEs or tend to trigger on the enemy's turn thus mechanically speaking making the damage no longer simultaneous so it's up to the DM to make a ruling on whether the bonus applies to all targets or just one (or they cost 200gp per cast, looking at you Glyph of Warding). You can use the feature... but only if you use alchemist supplies as the spellcasting focus (actively discouraging you from using an infused item as a casting focus).
It's higher level features are better, so if you make it to level 9 and 15 the shoes should be decently broken in by then... hopefully.
It's higher level features are better, so if you make it to level 9 and 15 the shoes should be decently broken in by then... hopefully.
Which is a bit funny, because the other subclasses (especially Battle Smith) peak at level 3-5, with power dropping off around level 9-11 where they start to mostly rely on the Artificer's main chassis for their party role.
Semantics aside, and note I mentioned casting Identify.
It is still a random effect for your primary subclass ability. All else being equal (tool and spell list) the only alchemist affect where every other artificer gets something else - the Artillerist only getting a pet but it has 3 options and gets better.
Semantics aside, a PC doesn't even need identify. Just time that's already being spent in creating the elixir as per identifying other magical items or potions.
The alchemist is a pair of shoes that don't fit quite right and you hope one day you'll break them in to be more comfortable.
Experimental Elixir is semi strangled by it's action economy, weird randomness, and the Artificer's half caster spell slots.
Alchemical Savant is a feature of many hidden butts buts.
You get to apply it to necrotic damage spell... but you only have one spell that does necrotic damage. You can apply a bonus to any spell that restores hp... but it must restore hp with a roll. You can apply a bonus to multiple targets that are affected by one damage roll... but you have very few spells that affect multiple targets with damage and the ones that do have very limited AOEs or tend to trigger on the enemy's turn thus mechanically speaking making the damage no longer simultaneous so it's up to the DM to make a ruling on whether the bonus applies to all targets or not (or they cost 200gp per cast, looking at you Glyph of Warding). You can use the feature... but only if you use alchemist supplies as the spellcasting focus (actively discouraging you from using an infused item as a casting focus).
It's higher level features are better, so if you make it to level 9 and 15 the shoes should be decently broken in by then... hopefully.
Broken apart for readability.
Experimental Elixir is semi strangled by it's action economy, weird randomness, and the Artificer's half caster spell slots.
Different than using other spells how? An experimental elixir is essentially a 1st-level spell that can be handed to other PC's to use on their actions. Taking an action to cast a 1st-level spell is no different whether it's in prep form, scroll form, or an elixir. It's the exact same action economy except it can be transferred to someone else. That's a benefit over typical spell casting.
The same with the spell slots. Alchemists aren't casting spells faster than any other caster on the same spell progression just because they have more options available to use those spell slots. Slots are used for useful options at the time and alchemists have a wider choice of useful options on which to spend them.
On the contrary, when alchemists are not spending slots on status afflictions that's more opportunity to use spells or elixirs that's an opportunity cost to other casters on the same progression, and the base SSI radically enables that because of the number of low level slots it can cover.
The randomness is flavor. The negative impact is minor because someone will use an elixir regardless of the random bonus 1st-level spell in elixir form that they end up with. It not going to go to waste.
You get to apply it to necrotic damage spell... but you only have one spell that does necrotic damage.
How does that actually hurt the subclass? This would only be a thing if that's all the feature did, but it's not. It's adding damage to another spell.
You can apply a bonus to any spell that restores hp... but it must restore hp with a roll.
So most of them.....
You can apply a bonus to multiple targets that are affected by one damage roll... but you have very few spells that affect multiple targets with damage and the ones that do have very limited AOEs or tend to trigger on the enemy's turn thus mechanically speaking making the damage no longer simultaneous so it's up to the DM to make a ruling on whether the bonus applies to all targets or not (or they cost 200gp per cast, looking at you Glyph of Warding).
It's the same rule for most classes with a similar ability except they usually have less spells to apply the bonus because it's limited to cantrips and/or they use spells known compared to prepped. They also tend to get it at 6th or 8th level depending on the class so getting it earlier for a good selection of spells is typically better, not worse.
Level
Spell
Type
0
Acid Splash
acid
0
Create Bonfire
fire
0
Fire Bolt
fire
0
Green-Flame Blade
fire
0
Mending
hit points
0
Poison Spray
poison
1
Cure Wounds
hit points
1
Healing Word
hit points
1
Ray of Sickness
poison
1
Tasha’s Caustic Brew
acid
2
Flaming Sphere
fire
2
Heat Metal
fire
2
Melf’s Acid Arrow
acid
3
Glyph of Warding
acid, fire
3
Mass Healing Word
hit points
4
Blight
necrotic
5
Cloudkill
poison
The fact that alchemical savant applies to necrotic and poison damage even though those are not really native to the artificer spell list is the reason alchemists have a 4th and 5th-level slot to apply the bonus.
Alchemists will make use of the ability with cantrips just like clerics do but 3 levels earlier and leveled spells, unlike clerics. There are literally 3 cantrips on the cleric list to which potent cantrip or blessed strikes might apply. 1 or 2 more might become available through domain.
Alchemists have a minimum of 7 prepared spells that grant the bonus and at every caster level. It applies to a wider variety of elements compared to the draconic bloodline, is granted a level earlier, and generally applies to more spells than a draconic sorcerer can afford to add.
The closest ability to alchemical savant is empowered evocation, and wizards need to wait until 10th level for that ability.
Trying to make alchemical savant look bad is a huge stretch because it's better than most casters have in a similar ability.
You can use the feature... but only if you use alchemist supplies as the spellcasting focus (actively discouraging you from using an infused item as a casting focus).
This also doesn't really hurt the subclass. They still get the bonus by using the alchemist supplies.
Alchemists can burn slots trying to keep up the output artillerists or battle smiths put out but that's a trade off for better healing and the added versatility from the potions. It's not really good or bad, just different and people either like that versatility or they don't.
Experimental Elixir is semi strangled by it's action economy, weird randomness, and the Artificer's half caster spell slots.
Different than using other spells how? An experimental elixir is essentially a 1st-level spell that can be handed to other PC's to use on their actions. Taking an action to cast a 1st-level spell is no different whether it's in prep form, scroll form, or an elixir. It's the exact same action economy except it can be transferred to someone else. That's a benefit over typical spell casting.
The same with the spell slots. Alchemists aren't casting spells faster than any other caster on the same spell progression just because they have more options available to use those spell slots. Slots are used for useful options at the time and alchemists have a wider choice of useful options on which to spend them.
If you're going to compare it to spells experimental elixir costs your action to "cast" and another creature's action to use. Doing this in combat either takes two creature's actions or your own action on two different turns. Most spells with a casting time of an action... only take 1 action, the caster's. This seems rather cumbersome to pull off by creating elixirs in combat so naturally the solution is to adopt a predictive playstyle.
You now try to anticipate when an elixir will be needed and who will be the one needing it so you can hand it to them in advance. Preparing non-random elixirs is functionally similar to preparing spells in this way... but preparing a spell doesn't cost you a spell slot. The ideal combat scenario for an alchemist is when the party is preparing an ambush. My general impression is these kinds of opportunities are rather rare in D&D.
On the contrary, when alchemists are not spending slots on status afflictions that's more opportunity to use spells or elixirs that's an opportunity cost to other casters on the same progression, and the base SSI radically enables that because of the number of low level slots it can cover.
The randomness is flavor. The negative impact is minor because someone will use an elixir regardless of the random bonus 1st-level spell in elixir form that they end up with. It not going to go to waste.
I did say the Alchemist's 9th level feature was better. Hence the whole shoes metaphor. Free Lesser Restoration is pretty nice. Though my impression is that it's not a spell that gets cast every adventuring day not having to prepare the spell is a nice bonus for a support caster.
Regarding SSI (an 11th level feature), I tend to not consider base class features when evaluating a subclass (particularly in comparison of other subclasses of the same class). Aside from getting multiple castings of Flaming Sphere going simultaneously (which is quite nice don't get me wrong) the Alchemist doesn't have any advantage over other Artificer subclasses in this regard. A solid base class feature on a weak subclass is just a reminder of what your other options are.
You get to apply it to necrotic damage spell... but you only have one spell that does necrotic damage.
How does that actually hurt the subclass? This would only be a thing if that's all the feature did, but it's not. It's adding damage to another spell.
It doesn't. It's just a weird game design decision. And one of the many "buts" of Alchemical Savant. I was listing the buts so it got included. Shockingly enough not every word of my posts is a vital stratagem in a well constructed argument. In fact I think you'll find that most of them aren't. ;)
You can apply a bonus to any spell that restores hp... but it must restore hp with a roll.
So most of them.....
Yep. But notably not Revivify and Raise Dead which (on top of the whole reviving thing) restore 1 hp. It's not an effect that would make a world of difference at all in gameplay. It's just why specify that it has to be a roll. Just make it one instance of damage in a spell.
Where it would be very helpful neat is if it provided extra healing to the spell Aid. Not necessarily to increase the max hp boost but to provide some extra healing to 3 creatures. It'd give the Alchemist some boosted mass healing right away at level 5 when Alchemical Savant and 2nd level spells come online for them, instead of having to wait until level 9 to be able to boost their healing to more than one creature with the same spell slot. If an Alchemist could spread healing around with a 2nd level slot the way it can 4 class levels later with a 3rd level slot it'd be much improved.
You can apply a bonus to multiple targets that are affected by one damage roll... but you have very few spells that affect multiple targets with damage and the ones that do have very limited AOEs or tend to trigger on the enemy's turn thus mechanically speaking making the damage no longer simultaneous so it's up to the DM to make a ruling on whether the bonus applies to all targets or not (or they cost 200gp per cast, looking at you Glyph of Warding).
It's the same rule for most classes with a similar ability except they usually have less spells to apply the bonus because it's limited to cantrips and/or they use spells known compared to prepped. They also tend to get it at 6th or 8th level depending on the class so getting it earlier for a good selection of spells is typically better, not worse.
Level
Spell
Type
0
Acid Splash
acid
0
Create Bonfire
fire
0
Fire Bolt
fire
0
Green-Flame Blade
fire
0
Mending
hit points
0
Poison Spray
poison
1
Cure Wounds
hit points
1
Healing Word
hit points
1
Ray of Sickness
poison
1
Tasha’s Caustic Brew
acid
2
Flaming Sphere
fire
2
Heat Metal
fire
2
Melf’s Acid Arrow
acid
3
Glyph of Warding
acid, fire
3
Mass Healing Word
hit points
4
Blight
necrotic
5
Cloudkill
poison
The fact that alchemical savant applies to necrotic and poison damage even though those are not really native to the artificer spell list is the reason alchemists have a 4th and 5th-level slot to apply the bonus.
Alchemists will make use of the ability with cantrips just like clerics do but 3 levels earlier and leveled spells, unlike clerics. There are literally 3 cantrips on the cleric list to which potent cantrip or blessed strikes might apply. 1 or 2 more might become available through domain.
Alchemists have a minimum of 7 prepared spells that grant the bonus and at every caster level. It applies to a wider variety of elements compared to the draconic bloodline, is granted a level earlier, and generally applies to more spells than a draconic sorcerer can afford to add.
The closest ability to alchemical savant is empowered evocation, and wizards need to wait until 10th level for that ability.
Trying to make alchemical savant look bad is a huge stretch because it's better than most casters have in a similar ability.
I'm not arguing against any of this. I'm not saying Alchemical Savant is bad. I never used those words. I said it "has many buts." And it was frustrating as hell trying to find all the ways I could push it to it's absolute best, cause here's the thing, I LIKE the Alchemist. It's my favorite Artificer subclass. But trying to get the most out of its features is like ramming your head into a wall. I've tried. It's awkward, it's features feel like their in competition with each other. It's versatile but has almost no synergy.
Alchemical Savant is at it's best when you can maximize the number of targets with an AOE. It's just that most of it's spells don't work that way. What the alchemist does have is plenty of spells that cause damage over time. In my opinion, THAT'S what Alchemical Savant should have been designed to capitalize on, but it simply doesn't work that way.
Contrast that with the Artillerist, whose level 5 feature functions quite similarly and they're chock FULL of AOE options for their spells. Contrast that with most subclasses that get access to static or single die damage boosts on leveled spells they tend to have excellent spell options in their list to push those spells to their limit with AOE.
Acid splash affects at most 2. Create bonfire can (DM willing) affect 4 if you get a tightly packed cluster of enemies but because it requires concentration it restricts what other spells you can combo with it. Green flame blade can hit two creatures with fire, but it has a separate damage roll for both so the AS bonus can only apply to one creature. Tasha's Caustic Brew causes damage on the enemy's turn technically not simultaneous as per RAW but your DM might rule that the bonus applies to all affected creatures. Flaming Sphere same deal with Caustic Brew. You can ram it into one enemy on your turn. Heat metal can hit multiple creatures if multiple creatures are touching the affected object. Healing word has not buts at all. It flawlessly maximizes Alchemical Savant. You get access to it at 9th level. Glyph of Warding works great with maximizing that bonus spread, at a cost of 200 gp per cast. Cloudkill has a great AOE but also runs into the damage on the enemy's turn thing.
The end result is that Alchemical Savant feels (to me at least) like it never fully realizes it's potential. That doesn't make the feature bad. It just frustrates me. And so therefore it's a "but" on the list. It's my list I get to add that but. You don't have to agree.
You can use the feature... but only if you use alchemist supplies as the spellcasting focus (actively discouraging you from using an infused item as a casting focus).
This also doesn't really hurt the subclass. They still get the bonus by using the alchemist supplies.
Alchemists can burn slots trying to keep up the output artillerists or battle smiths put out but that's a trade off for better healing and the added versatility from the potions. It's not really good or bad, just different and people either like that versatility or they don't.
Again. It's not a bad feature it just has more buts on it than a centipede. It adds to that whole slightly-ill-fitting shoes feel.
I thought that by saying "ill-fitting-shoes that you hope to break in" it would be understood as "this subclass has some weirdness to it that I wish was better, especially at low levels" instead of saying "I hate this subclass with the fury of 1000 hot suns" because I am 100% not saying that last one.
Alchemist is still my favorite official Artificer Subclass. That doesn't mean I consider it some paragon of game design. And THAT doesn't mean that it's impossible to have fun with while playing.
Essentially, I have mixed opinions on it, and they are nuanced, and probably not 100% fair or unbiased either. That's the beauty of having opinions.
You can use the feature... but only if you use alchemist supplies as the spellcasting focus (actively discouraging you from using an infused item as a casting focus).
This also doesn't really hurt the subclass. They still get the bonus by using the alchemist supplies.
As a minor bonus, unlike artillerists (who probably want shield + arcane firearm), battlesmiths (who probably want shield + magic weapon), or guardian armorers (who probably want shield + thunder gauntlets), alchemists can even make optimal use of an All Purpose Tool as a focus, by converting it to alchemist supplies.
If you're going to compare it to spells experimental elixir costs your action to "cast" and another creature's action to use. Doing this in combat either takes two creature's actions or your own action on two different turns. Most spells with a casting time of an action... only take 1 action, the caster's. This seems rather cumbersome to pull off by creating elixirs in combat so naturally the solution is to adopt a predictive playstyle.
I never found I needed to prepare them in combat much, but fair point that it is two actions in combat if an elixir is created in combat. I find that's not normal because:
Healing elixirs have very little value at levels 3 and 4, and no value until 9th level when the temp hp might make them relevant. Healing is more often done outside of battle and I usually only carry these if they are random rolls.
Swiftness lasts an hour. It's not hard who to figure out who I want to give that too before fights.
Resilience lasts for 10 minutes. Generally there's time to figure out if I want to use it but this is a general buff that I tend to hand out long before any battle comes up. I make one and give it to someone who will be fighting in melee at some point.
Boldness last for a minute and is the most likely elixir for me to create in combat, but I generally carry at least one of these at any time already. It's great as a stackable buff.
Flight is a specific purpose elixir more likely to be used out of combat than in, but if I think I might want it for combat I make one early. I don't wait for combat.
Transformation is also specific purpose and used out of combat.
Of the 6 elixirs, I don't normally spend slots on the first 2 and I don't spend slots on the last 2 in combat. The 2 elixirs I might spend slots on in combat I carry long before I might need them because I might use them that day.
This is tight at low levels and often I rely the freebie and just one boldness elixir unless specific situations come up. I think the option to create them is worth it, and when a person has 2 or 3 free randoms and more slots to spend I use some of them more prominently.
As I said though, I don't normally create them in combat. I create them with the expectation I will need them at some point in combat that day.
You now try to anticipate when an elixir will be needed and who will be the one needing it so you can hand it to them in advance. Preparing non-random elixirs is functionally similar to preparing spells in this way... but preparing a spell doesn't cost you a spell slot. The ideal combat scenario for an alchemist is when the party is preparing an ambush. My general impression is these kinds of opportunities are rather rare in D&D.
Creating an elixir in that way hasn't cost the spell slot either. Creating an elixir in that way locks in how that spell slot will be used but the effect of a 1st-level spell equivalent is still there for when it's used.
I did say the Alchemist's 9th level feature was better. Hence the whole shoes metaphor. Free Lesser Restoration is pretty nice. Though my impression is that it's not a spell that gets cast every adventuring day not having to prepare the spell is a nice bonus for a support caster.
I find that there are plenty of monsters with status afflictions. I don't get every use out the ability and it doesn't come up sometimes, but like you say I don't have to prep it and that means prepping something else, and every time I do cast it that way it saves a slot for something else that other subclasses lost the opportunity because of that slot cost. I use it often enough that I think it's a decent ability. For support, not damage, which is where a lot of players (maybe or maybe not you specifically) get hung up on abilities.
Regarding SSI (an 11th level feature), I tend to not consider base class features when evaluating a subclass (particularly in comparison of other subclasses of the same class). Aside from getting multiple castings of Flaming Sphere going simultaneously (which is quite nice don't get me wrong) the Alchemist doesn't have any advantage over other Artificer subclasses in this regard. A solid base class feature on a weak subclass is just a reminder of what your other options are.
I don't think we've defined "weak" here. Designed with a different purpose in mind isn't the same thing as weak.
Dual flaming spheres is one aspect. Another is that using the SSI on a commonly used 1st level spell opens up slots for elixirs, which is where I was going. Concentration free faerie fire spam and still having 1st-level slots for boldness elixirs is a strong combination for great weapon master and sharpshooter builds in the party that other artificers only partially cover. That route also allows more temp hit point generation from the alchemist because more elixirs are being used.
The base class ability is the same, but how it interacts with the subclass abilities is a bit different and why it's worth looking at.
It doesn't. It's just a weird game design decision. And one of the many "buts" of Alchemical Savant. I was listing the buts so it got included. Shockingly enough not every word of my posts is a vital stratagem in a well constructed argument. In fact I think you'll find that most of them aren't. ;)
I don't think that's a reflection on the alchemist or the ability. That's a reflection on the spell system that we've seen similar issues with other subclass of other classes until more spells were added.
Yep. But notably not Revivify and Raise Dead which (on top of the whole reviving thing) restore 1 hp. It's not an effect that would make a world of difference at all in gameplay. It's just why specify that it has to be a roll. Just make it one instance of damage in a spell.
I think that the non-random rolls include strong additional abilities or high numbers and that design was intentional. For example, you left heal off your list and that also doesn't roll but it's still good for the alchemist to have.
Where it would be very helpful neat is if it provided extra healing to the spell Aid. Not necessarily to increase the max hp boost but to provide some extra healing to 3 creatures. It'd give the Alchemist some boosted mass healing right away at level 5 when Alchemical Savant and 2nd level spells come online for them, instead of having to wait until level 9 to be able to boost their healing to more than one creature with the same spell slot. If an Alchemist could spread healing around with a 2nd level slot the way it can 4 class levels later with a 3rd level slot it'd be much improved.
I would just play a mark of healing halfling to add prayer of healing to the list if was important to me. Mass healing earlier would have been nice to see, I agree, but I don't think that breaks the subclass either.
Alchemical Savant is at it's best when you can maximize the number of targets with an AOE. It's just that most of it's spells don't work that way. What the alchemist does have is plenty of spells that cause damage over time. In my opinion, THAT'S what Alchemical Savant should have been designed to capitalize on, but it simply doesn't work that way.
Contrast that with the Artillerist, whose level 5 feature functions quite similarly and they're chock FULL of AOE options for their spells. Contrast that with most subclasses that get access to static or single die damage boosts on leveled spells they tend to have excellent spell options in their list to push those spells to their limit with AOE.
The difference is the artillerist only applies to damage. The alchemist applies to some damage and also healing. Both subclasses have better versions of a fairly common ability than most other class/subclasses.
That's not weaker, it's a different design purpose. I like casting a healing spell better than other classes (barring something like a life cleric) can.
You now try to anticipate when an elixir will be needed and who will be the one needing it so you can hand it to them in advance. Preparing non-random elixirs is functionally similar to preparing spells in this way... but preparing a spell doesn't cost you a spell slot. The ideal combat scenario for an alchemist is when the party is preparing an ambush. My general impression is these kinds of opportunities are rather rare in D&D.
Creating an elixir in that way hasn't cost the spell slot either. Creating an elixir in that way locks in how that spell slot will be used but the effect of a 1st-level spell equivalent is still there for when it's used.
"Cost" does not necessarily mean "waste" though potentially wasting the spell slot is very much on my mind here.
Regardless of whether or not the elixir is used, creating it expends a spell slot. Preparing a spell does not expend a spell slot. The slot only gets expended if the spell is cast. The elixir expends a slot regardless of whether or not anyone actually drinks it.
I don't get to choose if that elixir gets used, that's up to the player I give it to.* That player has to decide whether or not drinking that elixir is the best use of their action in the moment. That player has to remember that they even have the elixir in their inventory in order to use it. Generally, I think most of the time players will choose their own character's features over using mine to use with their action even if just because they're more familiar with those options.
I've already seen posts elsewhere online where DMs talk about their players never using the potions they hand out. Elixirs fall into a similar problem (slightly less so because they are renewable), and I don't want to give a nagging reminder every turn saying "you have an elixir you can drink." House rules and such to allow drinking the elixir as a bonus action help in this area, but that still remains a house rule, not the RAW.
Further, I have to weigh that consideration against reserving spell slots for casting healing word. I have to choose in advance whether or not it's better to prep an elixir or to wait and see if it will be necessary in the fight. And by the time I wait and see it's generally too late to be prepping elixirs. With actual spells I don't have to think that far ahead.
This is part of what rather annoys me with the randomness of the freebies (aside from it being an annoyingly shallow representation of what an experiment is). It means on some days I might luck out with something I know I'll use, this essentially frees up a spell slot for me that day. On other days I'll end up with something that I'm almost certain is not going to be applicable to the day's situation at all, now it might prove unexpectedly useful but more often that elixir may as well not exist (until 9th level when it can just become temp HP).
*I am aware I can drink the elixir myself, but I'm likely not the best choice for elixirs (other than flight) when in combat.
Alchemical Savant is at it's best when you can maximize the number of targets with an AOE. It's just that most of it's spells don't work that way. What the alchemist does have is plenty of spells that cause damage over time. In my opinion, THAT'S what Alchemical Savant should have been designed to capitalize on, but it simply doesn't work that way.
Contrast that with the Artillerist, whose level 5 feature functions quite similarly and they're chock FULL of AOE options for their spells. Contrast that with most subclasses that get access to static or single die damage boosts on leveled spells they tend to have excellent spell options in their list to push those spells to their limit with AOE.
The difference is the artillerist only applies to damage. The alchemist applies to some damage and also healing. Both subclasses have better versions of a fairly common ability than most other class/subclasses.
That's not weaker, it's a different design purpose. I like casting a healing spell better than other classes (barring something like a life cleric) can.
I'm well aware of that difference. It's why I feel like the Alchemist (which has several damage over time spells available to it) could have used something like a feature that grants a bonus every time damage of [applicable types] is dealt or when hit points are restored. It could be restricted to once per turn (especially considering a few of their spells trigger damage on the enemy's turn) instead of once per cast and then they could include a healing over time spell such as Healing Spirit, or Aura of Vitality in it's bonus spell list to suit that design as well.
More bang for their buck, which considering the free castings of lesser restoration at level 9, and the free casting of greater restoration at level 15, is perfectly in keeping with how their other features work.
Why give the Alchemist a feature that's better suited on a blaster with a blaster's spells instead of giving it a feature that's better suited on an Alchemist with the Alchemist's spells?
You now try to anticipate when an elixir will be needed and who will be the one needing it so you can hand it to them in advance. Preparing non-random elixirs is functionally similar to preparing spells in this way... but preparing a spell doesn't cost you a spell slot. The ideal combat scenario for an alchemist is when the party is preparing an ambush. My general impression is these kinds of opportunities are rather rare in D&D.
Creating an elixir in that way hasn't cost the spell slot either. Creating an elixir in that way locks in how that spell slot will be used but the effect of a 1st-level spell equivalent is still there for when it's used.
"Cost" does not necessarily mean "waste" though potentially wasting the spell slot is very much on my mind here.
Regardless of whether or not the elixir is used, creating it expends a spell slot. Preparing a spell does not expend a spell slot. The slot only gets expended if the spell is cast. The elixir expends a slot regardless of whether or not anyone actually drinks it.
I don't get to choose if that elixir gets used, that's up to the player I give it to.* That player has to decide whether or not drinking that elixir is the best use of their action in the moment. That player has to remember that they even have the elixir in their inventory in order to use it. Generally, I think most of the time players will choose their own character's features over using mine to use with their action even if just because they're more familiar with those options.
I've already seen posts elsewhere online where DMs talk about their players never using the potions they hand out. Elixirs fall into a similar problem (slightly less so because they are renewable), and I don't want to give a nagging reminder every turn saying "you have an elixir you can drink." House rules and such to allow drinking the elixir as a bonus action help in this area, but that still remains a house rule, not the RAW.
Further, I have to weigh that consideration against reserving spell slots for casting healing word. I have to choose in advance whether or not it's better to prep an elixir or to wait and see if it will be necessary in the fight. And by the time I wait and see it's generally too late to be prepping elixirs. With actual spells I don't have to think that far ahead.
This is part of what rather annoys me with the randomness of the freebies (aside from it being an annoyingly shallow representation of what an experiment is). It means on some days I might luck out with something I know I'll use, this essentially frees up a spell slot for me that day. On other days I'll end up with something that I'm almost certain is not going to be applicable to the day's situation at all, now it might prove unexpectedly useful but more often that elixir may as well not exist (until 9th level when it can just become temp HP).
*I am aware I can drink the elixir myself, but I'm likely not the best choice for elixirs (other than flight) when in combat.
Alchemical Savant is at it's best when you can maximize the number of targets with an AOE. It's just that most of it's spells don't work that way. What the alchemist does have is plenty of spells that cause damage over time. In my opinion, THAT'S what Alchemical Savant should have been designed to capitalize on, but it simply doesn't work that way.
Contrast that with the Artillerist, whose level 5 feature functions quite similarly and they're chock FULL of AOE options for their spells. Contrast that with most subclasses that get access to static or single die damage boosts on leveled spells they tend to have excellent spell options in their list to push those spells to their limit with AOE.
The difference is the artillerist only applies to damage. The alchemist applies to some damage and also healing. Both subclasses have better versions of a fairly common ability than most other class/subclasses.
That's not weaker, it's a different design purpose. I like casting a healing spell better than other classes (barring something like a life cleric) can.
I'm well aware of that difference. It's why I feel like the Alchemist (which has several damage over time spells available to it) could have used something like a feature that grants a bonus every time damage of [applicable types] is dealt or when hit points are restored. It could be restricted to once per turn (especially considering a few of their spells trigger damage on the enemy's turn) instead of once per cast and then they could include a healing over time spell such as Healing Spirit, or Aura of Vitality in it's bonus spell list to suit that design as well.
More bang for their buck, which considering the free castings of lesser restoration at level 9, and the free casting of greater restoration at level 15, is perfectly in keeping with how their other features work.
Why give the Alchemist a feature that's better suited on a blaster with a blaster's spells instead of giving it a feature that's better suited on an Alchemist with the Alchemist's spells?
Why would a player spend a slot on an elixir he/she/they would not use? Spending the slot is normally predicated by expecting to use the elixir.
It doesn't make sense that a player would spend the slot to not use the elixir.
Not using the elixir, however, is no different than not using all of the character's spell slots.
Prepping a spell doesn't cost a spell slot but it does cost against the number of spells prepped whether used or not.
I don't agree that spending a slot and not using the elixir is different than prepping a spell that isn't used and not spending all the spell slots.
The advantage the elixirs have is they are transferable for others to use where the spell slot is not.
Artillerist get a better deal on offensive spells because they are designed to be more offensive. Alchemical savant is still good because it applies to a lot and includes healing, which is the different focus.
Both are better than most casters get.
Like I said earlier, alchemical savant is a good ability because of the healing. It doesn't need to also improve area damage even more even though that might be nice. ;-)
You now try to anticipate when an elixir will be needed and who will be the one needing it so you can hand it to them in advance. Preparing non-random elixirs is functionally similar to preparing spells in this way... but preparing a spell doesn't cost you a spell slot. The ideal combat scenario for an alchemist is when the party is preparing an ambush. My general impression is these kinds of opportunities are rather rare in D&D.
Creating an elixir in that way hasn't cost the spell slot either. Creating an elixir in that way locks in how that spell slot will be used but the effect of a 1st-level spell equivalent is still there for when it's used.
"Cost" does not necessarily mean "waste" though potentially wasting the spell slot is very much on my mind here.
Regardless of whether or not the elixir is used, creating it expends a spell slot. Preparing a spell does not expend a spell slot. The slot only gets expended if the spell is cast. The elixir expends a slot regardless of whether or not anyone actually drinks it.
I don't get to choose if that elixir gets used, that's up to the player I give it to.* That player has to decide whether or not drinking that elixir is the best use of their action in the moment. That player has to remember that they even have the elixir in their inventory in order to use it. Generally, I think most of the time players will choose their own character's features over using mine to use with their action even if just because they're more familiar with those options.
I've already seen posts elsewhere online where DMs talk about their players never using the potions they hand out. Elixirs fall into a similar problem (slightly less so because they are renewable), and I don't want to give a nagging reminder every turn saying "you have an elixir you can drink." House rules and such to allow drinking the elixir as a bonus action help in this area, but that still remains a house rule, not the RAW.
Further, I have to weigh that consideration against reserving spell slots for casting healing word. I have to choose in advance whether or not it's better to prep an elixir or to wait and see if it will be necessary in the fight. And by the time I wait and see it's generally too late to be prepping elixirs. With actual spells I don't have to think that far ahead.
This is part of what rather annoys me with the randomness of the freebies (aside from it being an annoyingly shallow representation of what an experiment is). It means on some days I might luck out with something I know I'll use, this essentially frees up a spell slot for me that day. On other days I'll end up with something that I'm almost certain is not going to be applicable to the day's situation at all, now it might prove unexpectedly useful but more often that elixir may as well not exist (until 9th level when it can just become temp HP).
*I am aware I can drink the elixir myself, but I'm likely not the best choice for elixirs (other than flight) when in combat.
Alchemical Savant is at it's best when you can maximize the number of targets with an AOE. It's just that most of it's spells don't work that way. What the alchemist does have is plenty of spells that cause damage over time. In my opinion, THAT'S what Alchemical Savant should have been designed to capitalize on, but it simply doesn't work that way.
Contrast that with the Artillerist, whose level 5 feature functions quite similarly and they're chock FULL of AOE options for their spells. Contrast that with most subclasses that get access to static or single die damage boosts on leveled spells they tend to have excellent spell options in their list to push those spells to their limit with AOE.
The difference is the artillerist only applies to damage. The alchemist applies to some damage and also healing. Both subclasses have better versions of a fairly common ability than most other class/subclasses.
That's not weaker, it's a different design purpose. I like casting a healing spell better than other classes (barring something like a life cleric) can.
I'm well aware of that difference. It's why I feel like the Alchemist (which has several damage over time spells available to it) could have used something like a feature that grants a bonus every time damage of [applicable types] is dealt or when hit points are restored. It could be restricted to once per turn (especially considering a few of their spells trigger damage on the enemy's turn) instead of once per cast and then they could include a healing over time spell such as Healing Spirit, or Aura of Vitality in it's bonus spell list to suit that design as well.
More bang for their buck, which considering the free castings of lesser restoration at level 9, and the free casting of greater restoration at level 15, is perfectly in keeping with how their other features work.
Why give the Alchemist a feature that's better suited on a blaster with a blaster's spells instead of giving it a feature that's better suited on an Alchemist with the Alchemist's spells?
The cost argument looks like semantics. The value of the slot isn't impacted one way or the other just because the effect is delayed.
Other players who don't use the elixirs is an issue with the players, not the mechanics. The mechanics don't force you to hand those out or create them.
They are additional options to be used when applicable so no one is going to forget or not use slots spent on flight elixirs to cross a chasm or transformation elixirs to breathe water. No one will not use the healing elixir for healing when they need healing and it's unlikely someone doesn't want the d4 bonuses for combat.
If the use doesn't come up the slots are just going to go to spells prepped instead because the character is only going to create elixirs that expect to be used. You can drink them as you pointed out, but some are also applicable to a homunculus.
If the party really doesn't use them then I would just stop handing them out. The ones created will still get used and not wasted or lost.
The cost argument looks like semantics. The value of the slot isn't impacted one way or the other just because the effect is delayed.
The "cost argument" isn't even an argument! I was just attempting to clarify what I meant by "cost" earlier since it seemed like it wasn't clear the first time.
Rather than reply piecemeal as before I'll just add this.
A prepared spell not cast allows you to use that spell slot for a different prepared spell. The slot is not expended. An elixir created but not drunk does not let you use that spell slot for a different elixir. The slot has already been expended.
That's a fundamental difference between them and my entire dang point. That's why it's not the same as preparing spells.
Yes, experimental elixir gives you options for spell-like effects that you don't need to prepare, but it isn't equivalent to "extra prepared spells" because the elixirs are more awkward to use than a traditional spell.
I've run out of patience for this discussion because I feel like going further I'll just end up repeating myself forever, and no one needs that, least of all me.
I'll leave with one last clarification that I'm not saying the Alchemist is bad. I'm saying the features are like a shoe that doesn't fit quite right at first.
You know what would have fit the alchemist. The ability to make potions. Not random one day elixirs, but actual potiions. You know, what the class is named for. The alchemist entire potions ability is the same as every other artificier.
As for secondary support and healing, if you are playing the only healer, almost every spell slot is going to be used for healing with an occasional booste thrown into the mix.
If there is a primary healer in the party they so far outshiine an alchemist, why bother? What else do you bring to the table?
You know what would have fit the alchemist. The ability to make potions. Not random one day elixirs, but actual potiions. You know, what the class is named for. The alchemist entire potions ability is the same as every other artificier.
Anyone with Alchemist's Supplies can craft potions if your DM will let them, you don't have to be an Alchemist to do this, and you already have significant bonuses to doing this (you'll get expertise in those tools as standard). Likewise with poisons and a Poisoner's Kit. The fact that other artificers can also do this is more of a problem with the class getting so many tool proficiencies and free expertise as standard, but that doesn't mean they'll definitely choose the same tools as you (or bother to get/create them).
However no other class can create Experimental Elixirs on top of that. You also can empower your acid/fire/necrotic/poison and healing spells and so-on.
The main problem with the Alchemist is probably that it shouldn't be called Alchemist, as you don't have to be an Artificer to do alchemy, so there are going to be non-Artificers that are alchemists (and possibly better at it than you, because they're not simultaneously learning magic and other skills). Not sure what else it could be called, but I'm sure there has to have been a better name.
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If you create potions from your healing elixirs the healing elixir stacks on top
any elixir you create with this feature lasts until it is drunk or until the end of your next long rest.
Add 2d4 + your Intelligence Modifier to every crafted potion.
and your part of supplies being flasks, you can cast cure wounds as you administer potions + lv6 alchemist supplies expertise (+6) +2 spellfocus
to craft potions is 10+6+2+ intelligence arcana which should be a skill proficiency, this is basic magical crafting
at lv 9 you can cast lesser restoration as a cantrip as your int mod
but alchemist is not a primary healer its true gifts are Alter self transformation elixir AND CRAFTING POISONS AND ACIDS
Alter self natural weapons and apply poison or acids and attack spell cantrips to boost damage.
MIND SHARPENER INFUSION let you not fail a concentration check at lv2 4 charges. (requires robes or armor MAYBE WEAR BOTH if dm allows.)"like bullet proof vest under robes"
common acids/poisons arent magical MAKE them magical infuse them & add atlv6 +6(expert)+2(spellfocus)+int mod (savant)+1 enhanced weapon infusion
POTION OF HILL GIANT IS UNCOMMON easy for alchemist to craft (thats base 21 strength)
if you can replicate uncommon bag of holding at lv2 then you can craft potion of hill giant strength
dr jekyl mr hyde.
id suggest a character with powerful build or loxodon. And HIGH INT AND ARCANA PROFICIENCY
if needed proficiency with improvised weapons for poisons, Alchemist fire or acids get TAVERN BRAWLER FEAT
Edited for readability:
You can't create potions from your healing elixirs. A elixir is created when you touch an empty flask and last 1 day. A potion is created (something anyone with alchemy tools (or alchemy + arcana) can do but takes cost/50gp weeks. You also can't infuse an already magical item.
The temp HP is explicitly limited to the experimental elixirs. It does not add to any potions or other effects you create.
You cannot cast a spell as you administer a potion or elixir as administering is an action. At most you could administer and cast healing word (or dip sorcer for quicken).
There isn't anything in your list that the basic artificier can't already do. The alchemist sub-class can't do any of them better. It may make sense to expand the replicate magic item list, but RAW it is very specific and doesn't allow substitutions.
Those are elixirs not a potions. A potion doesn’t expire at the end of a day. I understand the DM not wanting to deal with having characters stockpile potions, but just limit the type by tier or even limit to specific potions.
You missed the point, the subclass is alchemist and they don’t make potions, or get a reduced cost or reduced time required outside of the artificer abilities.
I love the concept of alchemist, but the rules don't support it. The rules force the alchemist sub-class into a specific role and it’s one that it doesn’t even do that well.
What class feature for the Artificer makes them more capable at crafting mundane items than anyone else? The only thing I can think of is their huge amount of tool proficiencies paired with the (optional) uses for them in Xanathar's Guide to Everything but even then, a wizard would be capable of doing the same thing by picking up the correct tool proficiency from their background or a feat.
Or from just time. Any tool proficiency can be learnt with time so every class can get all of them. 250gp and 250 days for PHB, but in XGE, quote "Receiving training in a language or tool typically takes at least ten workweeks, but this time is reduced by a number of workweeks equal to the character's Intelligence modifier... Training costs 25 gp per workweek." so that wizard is probbaly able to get each for 5 weeks time, and a mere 125gp.
Experimental Elixir is semi strangled by it's action economy, weird randomness, and the Artificer's half caster spell slots.
Different than using other spells how? An experimental elixir is essentially a 1st-level spell that can be handed to other PC's to use on their actions. Taking an action to cast a 1st-level spell is no different whether it's in prep form, scroll form, or an elixir. It's the exact same action economy except it can be transferred to someone else. That's a benefit over typical spell casting.
Just to clarify, its not 1 action, its 2. One to make the potion and a 2nd action to use it on yourself or someone else. Thats what was meant by action economy being terrible. Yes you can sometimes do this before a fight, but it still used 2 actions.
Plus the potions are terrible and dont scale as you level. Almost anything the alchemist can do can be done better by any other kind of artificer, and DEFINITELY can be done better by a cleric, druid, or bard. Their healing spells scale with caster level twice as much given they're full casters, and they all get lesser restoration. The non bards get heal. However all three get lesser restoration at L3 instead of L9, greater restoration at L9 and Heal at L11 (except for the bard) instead of L15. Their full caster levels mean their spells will be doing more damage than your 1/2 progression with the even with their class damage bonus from int (which only affects one target with AOEs), as will their healing spells. The only advantage realisticly an alchemist gets is a removal of Diamond dust cost from Greater restoration. I strongly recommend someone who wants to be a support artificer to instead be an artillerist and use its healing turret, or a battlesmith and use its arcane jolt and the fact it gets the worlds best healing spell, Aura of Vitality usually Paladin only, which is in effect a concentration based sustained infinite use Word of healing. Both can freely take alchemy kit proficiency with their class starting artisan skill and thematically be similar, while mechanicly superior.
Artificers are still a super adaptable and fun class in their own right, even ignoring the subclass-specific features. Hopefully knowing what the Elixirs are ahead of time helps to be able to use them more consistently, but if you get to playing and just really don't find yourself enjoying the subclass you should talk to your DM about changing to another Subclass. Whether it's through retconning some of your character details, or by roleplaying your character investing time and study to do something else... like if you had a story arc where you actually took the time to build a Steel Defender and use that as the justification for why you're a Battlesmith now.
But yeah, you kind of have to go in wanting to be the team medic ahead of time to really get the most out of Alchemist, and if that's not what you had in mind it'll be hard to force it.
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The alchemist is a pair of shoes that don't fit quite right and you hope one day you'll break them in to be more comfortable.
Experimental Elixir is semi strangled by it's action economy, weird randomness, and the Artificer's half caster spell slots.
Alchemical Savant is a feature of many hidden
buttsbuts.You get to apply it to necrotic damage spell... but you only have one spell that does necrotic damage.
You can apply a bonus to any spell that restores hp... but it must restore hp with a roll.
You can apply a bonus to multiple targets that are affected by one damage roll... but you have very few spells that affect multiple targets with damage and the ones that do have very limited AOEs or tend to trigger on the enemy's turn thus mechanically speaking making the damage no longer simultaneous so it's up to the DM to make a ruling on whether the bonus applies to all targets or just one (or they cost 200gp per cast, looking at you Glyph of Warding).
You can use the feature... but only if you use alchemist supplies as the spellcasting focus (actively discouraging you from using an infused item as a casting focus).
It's higher level features are better, so if you make it to level 9 and 15 the shoes should be decently broken in by then... hopefully.
Which is a bit funny, because the other subclasses (especially Battle Smith) peak at level 3-5, with power dropping off around level 9-11 where they start to mostly rely on the Artificer's main chassis for their party role.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Semantics aside, a PC doesn't even need identify. Just time that's already being spent in creating the elixir as per identifying other magical items or potions.
Yes per the DMG and identifying magic items. But that is again DM dependent in homebrew and not actually viable in adventures league.
Broken apart for readability.
Different than using other spells how? An experimental elixir is essentially a 1st-level spell that can be handed to other PC's to use on their actions. Taking an action to cast a 1st-level spell is no different whether it's in prep form, scroll form, or an elixir. It's the exact same action economy except it can be transferred to someone else. That's a benefit over typical spell casting.
The same with the spell slots. Alchemists aren't casting spells faster than any other caster on the same spell progression just because they have more options available to use those spell slots. Slots are used for useful options at the time and alchemists have a wider choice of useful options on which to spend them.
On the contrary, when alchemists are not spending slots on status afflictions that's more opportunity to use spells or elixirs that's an opportunity cost to other casters on the same progression, and the base SSI radically enables that because of the number of low level slots it can cover.
The randomness is flavor. The negative impact is minor because someone will use an elixir regardless of the random bonus 1st-level spell in elixir form that they end up with. It not going to go to waste.
How does that actually hurt the subclass? This would only be a thing if that's all the feature did, but it's not. It's adding damage to another spell.
So most of them.....
It's the same rule for most classes with a similar ability except they usually have less spells to apply the bonus because it's limited to cantrips and/or they use spells known compared to prepped. They also tend to get it at 6th or 8th level depending on the class so getting it earlier for a good selection of spells is typically better, not worse.
The fact that alchemical savant applies to necrotic and poison damage even though those are not really native to the artificer spell list is the reason alchemists have a 4th and 5th-level slot to apply the bonus.
Alchemists will make use of the ability with cantrips just like clerics do but 3 levels earlier and leveled spells, unlike clerics. There are literally 3 cantrips on the cleric list to which potent cantrip or blessed strikes might apply. 1 or 2 more might become available through domain.
Alchemists have a minimum of 7 prepared spells that grant the bonus and at every caster level. It applies to a wider variety of elements compared to the draconic bloodline, is granted a level earlier, and generally applies to more spells than a draconic sorcerer can afford to add.
The closest ability to alchemical savant is empowered evocation, and wizards need to wait until 10th level for that ability.
Trying to make alchemical savant look bad is a huge stretch because it's better than most casters have in a similar ability.
This also doesn't really hurt the subclass. They still get the bonus by using the alchemist supplies.
Alchemists can burn slots trying to keep up the output artillerists or battle smiths put out but that's a trade off for better healing and the added versatility from the potions. It's not really good or bad, just different and people either like that versatility or they don't.
If you're going to compare it to spells experimental elixir costs your action to "cast" and another creature's action to use. Doing this in combat either takes two creature's actions or your own action on two different turns. Most spells with a casting time of an action... only take 1 action, the caster's. This seems rather cumbersome to pull off by creating elixirs in combat so naturally the solution is to adopt a predictive playstyle.
You now try to anticipate when an elixir will be needed and who will be the one needing it so you can hand it to them in advance. Preparing non-random elixirs is functionally similar to preparing spells in this way... but preparing a spell doesn't cost you a spell slot. The ideal combat scenario for an alchemist is when the party is preparing an ambush. My general impression is these kinds of opportunities are rather rare in D&D.
I did say the Alchemist's 9th level feature was better. Hence the whole shoes metaphor. Free Lesser Restoration is pretty nice. Though my impression is that it's not a spell that gets cast every adventuring day not having to prepare the spell is a nice bonus for a support caster.
Regarding SSI (an 11th level feature), I tend to not consider base class features when evaluating a subclass (particularly in comparison of other subclasses of the same class). Aside from getting multiple castings of Flaming Sphere going simultaneously (which is quite nice don't get me wrong) the Alchemist doesn't have any advantage over other Artificer subclasses in this regard. A solid base class feature on a weak subclass is just a reminder of what your other options are.
It doesn't. It's just a weird game design decision. And one of the many "buts" of Alchemical Savant. I was listing the buts so it got included. Shockingly enough not every word of my posts is a vital stratagem in a well constructed argument. In fact I think you'll find that most of them aren't. ;)
Yep. But notably not Revivify and Raise Dead which (on top of the whole reviving thing) restore 1 hp. It's not an effect that would make a world of difference at all in gameplay. It's just why specify that it has to be a roll. Just make it one instance of damage in a spell.
Where it would be very helpful neat is if it provided extra healing to the spell Aid. Not necessarily to increase the max hp boost but to provide some extra healing to 3 creatures. It'd give the Alchemist some boosted mass healing right away at level 5 when Alchemical Savant and 2nd level spells come online for them, instead of having to wait until level 9 to be able to boost their healing to more than one creature with the same spell slot. If an Alchemist could spread healing around with a 2nd level slot the way it can 4 class levels later with a 3rd level slot it'd be much improved.
I'm not arguing against any of this. I'm not saying Alchemical Savant is bad. I never used those words. I said it "has many buts." And it was frustrating as hell trying to find all the ways I could push it to it's absolute best, cause here's the thing, I LIKE the Alchemist. It's my favorite Artificer subclass. But trying to get the most out of its features is like ramming your head into a wall. I've tried. It's awkward, it's features feel like their in competition with each other. It's versatile but has almost no synergy.
Alchemical Savant is at it's best when you can maximize the number of targets with an AOE. It's just that most of it's spells don't work that way. What the alchemist does have is plenty of spells that cause damage over time. In my opinion, THAT'S what Alchemical Savant should have been designed to capitalize on, but it simply doesn't work that way.
Contrast that with the Artillerist, whose level 5 feature functions quite similarly and they're chock FULL of AOE options for their spells.
Contrast that with most subclasses that get access to static or single die damage boosts on leveled spells they tend to have excellent spell options in their list to push those spells to their limit with AOE.
Acid splash affects at most 2.
Create bonfire can (DM willing) affect 4 if you get a tightly packed cluster of enemies but because it requires concentration it restricts what other spells you can combo with it.
Green flame blade can hit two creatures with fire, but it has a separate damage roll for both so the AS bonus can only apply to one creature.
Tasha's Caustic Brew causes damage on the enemy's turn technically not simultaneous as per RAW but your DM might rule that the bonus applies to all affected creatures.
Flaming Sphere same deal with Caustic Brew. You can ram it into one enemy on your turn.
Heat metal can hit multiple creatures if multiple creatures are touching the affected object.
Healing word has not buts at all. It flawlessly maximizes Alchemical Savant. You get access to it at 9th level.
Glyph of Warding works great with maximizing that bonus spread, at a cost of 200 gp per cast.
Cloudkill has a great AOE but also runs into the damage on the enemy's turn thing.
The end result is that Alchemical Savant feels (to me at least) like it never fully realizes it's potential. That doesn't make the feature bad. It just frustrates me. And so therefore it's a "but" on the list. It's my list I get to add that but. You don't have to agree.
Again. It's not a bad feature it just has more buts on it than a centipede. It adds to that whole slightly-ill-fitting shoes feel.
I thought that by saying "ill-fitting-shoes that you hope to break in" it would be understood as "this subclass has some weirdness to it that I wish was better, especially at low levels" instead of saying "I hate this subclass with the fury of 1000 hot suns" because I am 100% not saying that last one.
Alchemist is still my favorite official Artificer Subclass.
That doesn't mean I consider it some paragon of game design.
And THAT doesn't mean that it's impossible to have fun with while playing.
Essentially, I have mixed opinions on it, and they are nuanced, and probably not 100% fair or unbiased either.
That's the beauty of having opinions.
As a minor bonus, unlike artillerists (who probably want shield + arcane firearm), battlesmiths (who probably want shield + magic weapon), or guardian armorers (who probably want shield + thunder gauntlets), alchemists can even make optimal use of an All Purpose Tool as a focus, by converting it to alchemist supplies.
@unclevertitle
I never found I needed to prepare them in combat much, but fair point that it is two actions in combat if an elixir is created in combat. I find that's not normal because:
Of the 6 elixirs, I don't normally spend slots on the first 2 and I don't spend slots on the last 2 in combat. The 2 elixirs I might spend slots on in combat I carry long before I might need them because I might use them that day.
This is tight at low levels and often I rely the freebie and just one boldness elixir unless specific situations come up. I think the option to create them is worth it, and when a person has 2 or 3 free randoms and more slots to spend I use some of them more prominently.
As I said though, I don't normally create them in combat. I create them with the expectation I will need them at some point in combat that day.
Creating an elixir in that way hasn't cost the spell slot either. Creating an elixir in that way locks in how that spell slot will be used but the effect of a 1st-level spell equivalent is still there for when it's used.
I find that there are plenty of monsters with status afflictions. I don't get every use out the ability and it doesn't come up sometimes, but like you say I don't have to prep it and that means prepping something else, and every time I do cast it that way it saves a slot for something else that other subclasses lost the opportunity because of that slot cost. I use it often enough that I think it's a decent ability. For support, not damage, which is where a lot of players (maybe or maybe not you specifically) get hung up on abilities.
I don't think we've defined "weak" here. Designed with a different purpose in mind isn't the same thing as weak.
Dual flaming spheres is one aspect. Another is that using the SSI on a commonly used 1st level spell opens up slots for elixirs, which is where I was going. Concentration free faerie fire spam and still having 1st-level slots for boldness elixirs is a strong combination for great weapon master and sharpshooter builds in the party that other artificers only partially cover. That route also allows more temp hit point generation from the alchemist because more elixirs are being used.
The base class ability is the same, but how it interacts with the subclass abilities is a bit different and why it's worth looking at.
I don't think that's a reflection on the alchemist or the ability. That's a reflection on the spell system that we've seen similar issues with other subclass of other classes until more spells were added.
I think that the non-random rolls include strong additional abilities or high numbers and that design was intentional. For example, you left heal off your list and that also doesn't roll but it's still good for the alchemist to have.
I would just play a mark of healing halfling to add prayer of healing to the list if was important to me. Mass healing earlier would have been nice to see, I agree, but I don't think that breaks the subclass either.
The difference is the artillerist only applies to damage. The alchemist applies to some damage and also healing. Both subclasses have better versions of a fairly common ability than most other class/subclasses.
That's not weaker, it's a different design purpose. I like casting a healing spell better than other classes (barring something like a life cleric) can.
I also have opinions. :D
"Cost" does not necessarily mean "waste" though potentially wasting the spell slot is very much on my mind here.
Regardless of whether or not the elixir is used, creating it expends a spell slot. Preparing a spell does not expend a spell slot. The slot only gets expended if the spell is cast. The elixir expends a slot regardless of whether or not anyone actually drinks it.
I don't get to choose if that elixir gets used, that's up to the player I give it to.* That player has to decide whether or not drinking that elixir is the best use of their action in the moment. That player has to remember that they even have the elixir in their inventory in order to use it. Generally, I think most of the time players will choose their own character's features over using mine to use with their action even if just because they're more familiar with those options.
I've already seen posts elsewhere online where DMs talk about their players never using the potions they hand out. Elixirs fall into a similar problem (slightly less so because they are renewable), and I don't want to give a nagging reminder every turn saying "you have an elixir you can drink." House rules and such to allow drinking the elixir as a bonus action help in this area, but that still remains a house rule, not the RAW.
Further, I have to weigh that consideration against reserving spell slots for casting healing word. I have to choose in advance whether or not it's better to prep an elixir or to wait and see if it will be necessary in the fight. And by the time I wait and see it's generally too late to be prepping elixirs. With actual spells I don't have to think that far ahead.
This is part of what rather annoys me with the randomness of the freebies (aside from it being an annoyingly shallow representation of what an experiment is). It means on some days I might luck out with something I know I'll use, this essentially frees up a spell slot for me that day. On other days I'll end up with something that I'm almost certain is not going to be applicable to the day's situation at all, now it might prove unexpectedly useful but more often that elixir may as well not exist (until 9th level when it can just become temp HP).
*I am aware I can drink the elixir myself, but I'm likely not the best choice for elixirs (other than flight) when in combat.
I'm well aware of that difference. It's why I feel like the Alchemist (which has several damage over time spells available to it) could have used something like a feature that grants a bonus every time damage of [applicable types] is dealt or when hit points are restored. It could be restricted to once per turn (especially considering a few of their spells trigger damage on the enemy's turn) instead of once per cast and then they could include a healing over time spell such as Healing Spirit, or Aura of Vitality in it's bonus spell list to suit that design as well.
More bang for their buck, which considering the free castings of lesser restoration at level 9, and the free casting of greater restoration at level 15, is perfectly in keeping with how their other features work.
Why give the Alchemist a feature that's better suited on a blaster with a blaster's spells instead of giving it a feature that's better suited on an Alchemist with the Alchemist's spells?
Why would a player spend a slot on an elixir he/she/they would not use? Spending the slot is normally predicated by expecting to use the elixir.
It doesn't make sense that a player would spend the slot to not use the elixir.
Not using the elixir, however, is no different than not using all of the character's spell slots.
Prepping a spell doesn't cost a spell slot but it does cost against the number of spells prepped whether used or not.
I don't agree that spending a slot and not using the elixir is different than prepping a spell that isn't used and not spending all the spell slots.
The advantage the elixirs have is they are transferable for others to use where the spell slot is not.
Artillerist get a better deal on offensive spells because they are designed to be more offensive. Alchemical savant is still good because it applies to a lot and includes healing, which is the different focus.
Both are better than most casters get.
Like I said earlier, alchemical savant is a good ability because of the healing. It doesn't need to also improve area damage even more even though that might be nice. ;-)
The cost argument looks like semantics. The value of the slot isn't impacted one way or the other just because the effect is delayed.
Other players who don't use the elixirs is an issue with the players, not the mechanics. The mechanics don't force you to hand those out or create them.
They are additional options to be used when applicable so no one is going to forget or not use slots spent on flight elixirs to cross a chasm or transformation elixirs to breathe water. No one will not use the healing elixir for healing when they need healing and it's unlikely someone doesn't want the d4 bonuses for combat.
If the use doesn't come up the slots are just going to go to spells prepped instead because the character is only going to create elixirs that expect to be used. You can drink them as you pointed out, but some are also applicable to a homunculus.
If the party really doesn't use them then I would just stop handing them out. The ones created will still get used and not wasted or lost.
The "cost argument" isn't even an argument! I was just attempting to clarify what I meant by "cost" earlier since it seemed like it wasn't clear the first time.
Rather than reply piecemeal as before I'll just add this.
A prepared spell not cast allows you to use that spell slot for a different prepared spell. The slot is not expended.
An elixir created but not drunk does not let you use that spell slot for a different elixir. The slot has already been expended.
That's a fundamental difference between them and my entire dang point. That's why it's not the same as preparing spells.
Yes, experimental elixir gives you options for spell-like effects that you don't need to prepare, but it isn't equivalent to "extra prepared spells" because the elixirs are more awkward to use than a traditional spell.
I've run out of patience for this discussion because I feel like going further I'll just end up repeating myself forever, and no one needs that, least of all me.
I'll leave with one last clarification that I'm not saying the Alchemist is bad. I'm saying the features are like a shoe that doesn't fit quite right at first.
You know what would have fit the alchemist. The ability to make potions. Not random one day elixirs, but actual potiions. You know, what the class is named for. The alchemist entire potions ability is the same as every other artificier.
As for secondary support and healing, if you are playing the only healer, almost every spell slot is going to be used for healing with an occasional booste thrown into the mix.
If there is a primary healer in the party they so far outshiine an alchemist, why bother? What else do you bring to the table?
Anyone with Alchemist's Supplies can craft potions if your DM will let them, you don't have to be an Alchemist to do this, and you already have significant bonuses to doing this (you'll get expertise in those tools as standard). Likewise with poisons and a Poisoner's Kit. The fact that other artificers can also do this is more of a problem with the class getting so many tool proficiencies and free expertise as standard, but that doesn't mean they'll definitely choose the same tools as you (or bother to get/create them).
However no other class can create Experimental Elixirs on top of that. You also can empower your acid/fire/necrotic/poison and healing spells and so-on.
The main problem with the Alchemist is probably that it shouldn't be called Alchemist, as you don't have to be an Artificer to do alchemy, so there are going to be non-Artificers that are alchemists (and possibly better at it than you, because they're not simultaneously learning magic and other skills). Not sure what else it could be called, but I'm sure there has to have been a better name.
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Edited for readability:
You can't create potions from your healing elixirs. A elixir is created when you touch an empty flask and last 1 day. A potion is created (something anyone with alchemy tools (or alchemy + arcana) can do but takes cost/50gp weeks. You also can't infuse an already magical item.
The temp HP is explicitly limited to the experimental elixirs. It does not add to any potions or other effects you create.
You cannot cast a spell as you administer a potion or elixir as administering is an action. At most you could administer and cast healing word (or dip sorcer for quicken).
There isn't anything in your list that the basic artificier can't already do. The alchemist sub-class can't do any of them better. It may make sense to expand the replicate magic item list, but RAW it is very specific and doesn't allow substitutions.
Those are elixirs not a potions. A potion doesn’t expire at the end of a day. I understand the DM not wanting to deal with having characters stockpile potions, but just limit the type by tier or even limit to specific potions.
You missed the point, the subclass is alchemist and they don’t make potions, or get a reduced cost or reduced time required outside of the artificer abilities.
I love the concept of alchemist, but the rules don't support it. The rules force the alchemist sub-class into a specific role and it’s one that it doesn’t even do that well.
Or from just time. Any tool proficiency can be learnt with time so every class can get all of them. 250gp and 250 days for PHB, but in XGE, quote "Receiving training in a language or tool typically takes at least ten workweeks, but this time is reduced by a number of workweeks equal to the character's Intelligence modifier... Training costs 25 gp per workweek." so that wizard is probbaly able to get each for 5 weeks time, and a mere 125gp.
Just to clarify, its not 1 action, its 2. One to make the potion and a 2nd action to use it on yourself or someone else. Thats what was meant by action economy being terrible. Yes you can sometimes do this before a fight, but it still used 2 actions.
Plus the potions are terrible and dont scale as you level. Almost anything the alchemist can do can be done better by any other kind of artificer, and DEFINITELY can be done better by a cleric, druid, or bard. Their healing spells scale with caster level twice as much given they're full casters, and they all get lesser restoration. The non bards get heal. However all three get lesser restoration at L3 instead of L9, greater restoration at L9 and Heal at L11 (except for the bard) instead of L15. Their full caster levels mean their spells will be doing more damage than your 1/2 progression with the even with their class damage bonus from int (which only affects one target with AOEs), as will their healing spells. The only advantage realisticly an alchemist gets is a removal of Diamond dust cost from Greater restoration. I strongly recommend someone who wants to be a support artificer to instead be an artillerist and use its healing turret, or a battlesmith and use its arcane jolt and the fact it gets the worlds best healing spell, Aura of Vitality usually Paladin only, which is in effect a concentration based sustained infinite use Word of healing. Both can freely take alchemy kit proficiency with their class starting artisan skill and thematically be similar, while mechanicly superior.