That's true for the Artillerist with Arcane Firearm which requires the spell cast simply be "an artificer spell."
But an Alchemist with Alchemical Savant is specifically required to cast the spell using Alchemist supplies as a focus in order to gain that extra INT to one damage/healing roll. An Alchemist can/must use Alchemists supplies to cast spells granted by their spellcasting feature in other words cantrips you know from your class and spells that you prepare.
From RAW, for all Artificers (the spellcasting feature):
"You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way."
and for Alchemists:
"You gain proficiency with alchemist’s supplies."
and for Alchemical Savant:
"Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)."
So I read that, pretty clearly, as you can use Alchemical Savant with any artificer spell you can cast (that also either heals or has one of those damage types). "Artificer spells" is a list of specific spells (to which each specialist type adds a few spells, even).
That's true for the Artillerist with Arcane Firearm which requires the spell cast simply be "an artificer spell."
But an Alchemist with Alchemical Savant is specifically required to cast the spell using Alchemist supplies as a focus in order to gain that extra INT to one damage/healing roll. An Alchemist can/must use Alchemists supplies to cast spells granted by their spellcasting feature in other words cantrips you know from your class and spells that you prepare.
From RAW, for all Artificers (the spellcasting feature):
"You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way."
My understanding is that casting spells gained from magic initiate is not casting "with this Spellcasting feature" and thus wouldn't be able to be cast with tools as a focus.
"Artificer spells" are spells gained through the artificer Spellcasting class feature (or through Artificer Initiate, apparently), not "any spell that happens to be on the artificer spell list".
If it were the case that simply being on a class list counted as making the spell a [Class] spell, then the multiclassing rules which insist that you keep your spell lists firmly separate even if there are spells shared between them wouldn't make sense. A spell counts ONLY as a spell of the class whose feature granted you that spell, with the "[X] Initiate" spells counting as spells of their respective class.
There is, however, a two*-feat workaround for Chill Touch as an alchemist spell, if one is required to adhere strictly to raw. First, take Artificer Initiate and select Alchemist's Supplies as your "new" proficiency. This allows you to use alchemist's supplies as a focus for any spell that uses Intelligence as its casting ability. Now, use either Spell Sniper or any of the other dozen methods of gaining wizard cantrips to add Chill Touch as a wizard spell. Wizard spells cast with Intelligence, and thus you can use alchemist's supplies as a focus for them, and boom - you're now able to use the Alchemist's terrible level 5 class feature on your whatever-you-want spells, since alchemists don't specify "artificer spells". Only spells cast "with your alchemist's supplies as the focus."
"Artificer spells" are spells gained through the artificer Spellcasting class feature (or through Artificer Initiate, apparently), not "any spell that happens to be on the artificer spell list".
If it were the case that simply being on a class list counted as making the spell a [Class] spell, then the multiclassing rules which insist that you keep your spell lists firmly separate even if there are spells shared between them wouldn't make sense. A spell counts ONLY as a spell of the class whose feature granted you that spell, with the "[X] Initiate" spells counting as spells of their respective class.
That is RAW for multiclassing, but not feats. I think we are, at best, speculating about RAI. (And getting into an argument about the designers' intents isn't worth derailing a thread.)
Were I betting on the intent (or some theoretically forthcoming Sage Advice), I'd bet that your interpretation is correct about Magic Initiate, but mine is more correct for Spell Sniper. Note how, in dndbeyond implementation at least, Spell Sniper is split up effectively by modifier, not class.
There is, however, a two*-feat workaround for Chill Touch as an alchemist spell, if one is required to adhere strictly to raw. First, take Artificer Initiate and select Alchemist's Supplies as your "new" proficiency. This allows you to use alchemist's supplies as a focus for any spell that uses Intelligence as its casting ability. Now, use either Spell Sniper or any of the other dozen methods of gaining wizard cantrips to add Chill Touch as a wizard spell. Wizard spells cast with Intelligence, and thus you can use alchemist's supplies as a focus for them, and boom - you're now able to use the Alchemist's terrible level 5 class feature on your whatever-you-want spells, since alchemists don't specify "artificer spells". Only spells cast "with your alchemist's supplies as the focus."
There is a problem with this. The Alchemist already gets Alchemy Supplies as a known artisan tool and the Artificer can use any artisan tool OR thieves tools to be able to cast their spell.
"TOOL PROFICIENCY 3rd-level Alchemist feature You gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies. If you already have this proficiency, you gain proficiency with one other type of artisan's tools of your choice." pg 14 of Tasha's.
Which Combines with:
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way."
So you would not be able to double up on tool proficiency and pick up Alchemist Supplies with the Feat and use it as a general spell focus. You've already got the supplies and they are already your spell casting tool when it comes to the Alchemical Savant feature.
As for the way that Spell Sniper is implemented in DDB when making characters. It actually IS broken down by class. For ease of implementation they just lumped all the classes that use the same Spell Casting Attribute (not simply modifier which is only based on said attribute), for ease of management and workings. the three Versions in it literally say the name of the classes that share the same spell casting attribute in the names of them on the list. This just makes it easier for the mechanics of the website to apply the right attribute to the spell to figure out the DC for you.
Nothing in Artificer Initiate says you can't pick a tool you already have proficiency in. Usually that just means you get to choose a new tool for your Alchemist feature. Even if you don't and 'waste' the extra tool proficiency, the important bit is Artificer Initiate granting you the ability to use Alchemist's Supplies as a spell focus for non-artificer Intelligence spells.
Also: Alchemist's Supplies count as a form of artisan's tool.
IF the DM for a home game has no issue with applying artificer bonuses to your Spell Sniper spell, go for it. it's the sort of thing a DM should probably let slide anyways if you're burning an entire feat for it. But altogether too many folks in these forums demand strict, absolute ironclad adherence to RAW> Those will need Artificer Initiate to get the Alchemist's terrible fifth-level ability working for non-artificer spells, and nothing turns a Spell Sniper spell into something applicable to an Artillerist's Arcane Firearm.
Medium Armor master as a Vuman with 16 dex has been fantastic.
Observant is good for everyone.
Aberrant Dragonmark just got my artificer immortality, which is nifty. Chill Touch and Comprehend Languages are a huge bonus. Now I want to go hunt down a sphinx.
Skilled/Prodigy are fantastic choices if you want to expand your versatility. We hit a point where I would pay masters to make the items our group didn't have proficiency with .
Mobile/sentry/warcaster, depends on what you need. Sentinel is great for keeping stuff near you, so is walking into combat and dropping a bunch of bear traps.
Finally a special mention to sharpshooter, crossbow expert, great weapon master, eldritch adept, and martial adept.
The Tool proficiency's. Backgrounds, and other places like that actually say that you can't double pick. It doesn't need to be in the feat.
A variant human, custom lineage, or multiclass character that has already picked up an ASI can pick up Artificer Initiate for alchemist's supplies before acquiring the 3rd level of Alchemist. The alchemist would then pick an alternative tool at alchemist 3. Alchemical Savant specifies the use of alchemist's supplies, not the tools granted by the 3rd level ability. This is an easy work around to make what Yurei is talking about function just fine.
Was wondering what feats you guys think are best used with artificer. I wanted to try spell sniper but wasn't sure if I could use it since on DNDB there are spell sniper feats specific to their classes and I don't see Artificer listed there.
I love spell sniper to get Chill Touch. On my Alchemist I pair that with Thorn Whip to prevent healing, or otherwise manipulate the battle field. Sure I don't get the level 5 +INT damage. But instead I get an open hand, or a shield + EAF. That ability only works for like 7 spells anyway. I still use it for healing though. Even if I end up dropping EAF for it.
Magic Intiate is great as well because of how limited spells are.
Abbarent is pretty fun as well.
UA's Telekinteic one is absolutely great as well + 1 int (love) and a real nice Mage Hand-thats stronger than the cantrip you can't afford to take (Because so few cantrip). If only it let you push in any direction...
Healer is great
-------
I'm pretty sure if you use Xanathar's you can just pay for learning profiencies. Which is my plan. use my ijnfusions to save my gold. to spend on that.
What is EAF? I have stared at you post for a good 5 min looked at the alchemist skills and I still cant come up with it.
I love spell sniper to get Chill Touch. On my Alchemist I pair that with Thorn Whip to prevent healing, or otherwise manipulate the battle field. Sure I don't get the level 5 +INT damage. But instead I get an open hand, or a shield + EAF. That ability only works for like 7 spells anyway. I still use it for healing though. Even if I end up dropping EAF for it.
Magic Intiate is great as well because of how limited spells are.
Abbarent is pretty fun as well.
UA's Telekinteic one is absolutely great as well + 1 int (love) and a real nice Mage Hand-thats stronger than the cantrip you can't afford to take (Because so few cantrip). If only it let you push in any direction...
Healer is great
-------
I'm pretty sure if you use Xanathar's you can just pay for learning profiencies. Which is my plan. use my ijnfusions to save my gold. to spend on that.
What is EAF? I have stared at you post for a good 5 min looked at the alchemist skills and I still cant come up with it.
My main study on the class has been focused on Guardian armorer Artificer but I believe most of this applies to others
Aberrant DragonMark: fun as a failed experiment hook (close to Magic initiate)
Eldrich Adept: some invocation can cover what you are missing
Elemental Adept: I believe this is a must for an alchemist
Fey Touched: Half Feat is convenient plus extra spells
Healer: always good, and prevent wasting spell slot on cure wounds
Meta Magic Adept: just imagine the versatility you gain with your few Spell slots
Mobile: For armorer to make them go after you without risking extra dmg after a good Boom Blade
Shield Master: I think it is great for Armorer as well to mitigate even more dmg and get them off you (a mix of Iron Man and Captain America)(a shame there is nothing good that boost a shield toss dmg or make that worth the action lol)
Skill Expert: an ability score and expertise on a skill is nice anywhere
Telepathic: to talk with your Homunculus Servant will save you so much trouble and you can be so creative having extra eyes around
Though: extra blood for Armorer
War Caster: yes Booming blade is on the artificer cantrip list so its good for Armorers plus you don't risk wasting the spell slot used on the concentration spell you cast on yourself since you are front liner
Shadow touched is also an excellent feat for artificers.
Invisibility is good and while it's second set of spells is meh compared to get touched it's still a solid half feat for added spell casting and versatility.
Assuming you know what role you're going to fill isn't easy for an Armorer.
Guardian mode provides disadvantage to enemies hit, and the temp hp pool that you're expected to "tank" with. That BA temp hp heal competes w our Homunculus Servant infusion BA attack by the by.
Infiltrator mode is usually my go to for the extra movemnt speed, ranged attacks, keep away stuff.
Woodelf for 40ft mvmnt speed, so..
Feats that tempt me - Mobile, Dual Wielder, Elven Accuracy, Telekinetic, Skill Expert, Gunner/Sharpshooter.
Background - Quandrix Allumni. 1st lvl spell - Healing word. Mage hand, Guidance as cantrips. Arcana+Nature, swapping Nature for Stealth, if allowed. Perception (Elf), trading weapon profs (Woodelf) for tool profs. Medicine and Slight of hand if trying to multiclass bladesinger, otherwise - 2 of History, Investigation, or Medicine. (Party comp matters here.)
Assuming you can get to Arcane Propulsion Armor infusion (lvl 14 iirc*), it stacking with your armors thunder gauntlets will provide the single biggest damage boost to your attacks you can find, ontop of making them thrown/ranged weapons that can use Intelligence, instead of STR OR DEX. (Of note - Armorers weapons, both of them, can use Intelligence instead of Strength or Dexterity. Meaning. If you got 25Str, you could use your strength modifier, for your lightning launcher. Likewise, you can use your Dex instead of Str for TG attacks. It's Litterally RAW. Can use int, instead of str or dex. Both weapons. Makes Stormgirdle so thematically appealing an Armorer can be a 1 man Avengers team. Just put Reduce/Enlarge on your ssi, order your servant to use the magic item on you and go have fun Hulk! Storm Avatar for Thor, Infiltrator for Ironman 90ft lightning blasts.. that are only 1d6+2+mod? Sharpshooter helps, but "arcane propulsion armor isn't a ranged weapon in the phb." /migrane)
From RAW, for all Artificers (the spellcasting feature):
"You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way."
and for Alchemists:
"You gain proficiency with alchemist’s supplies."
and for Alchemical Savant:
"Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)."
So I read that, pretty clearly, as you can use Alchemical Savant with any artificer spell you can cast (that also either heals or has one of those damage types). "Artificer spells" is a list of specific spells (to which each specialist type adds a few spells, even).
My understanding is that casting spells gained from magic initiate is not casting "with this Spellcasting feature" and thus wouldn't be able to be cast with tools as a focus.
I would be super happy to be wrong about that.
"Artificer spells" are spells gained through the artificer Spellcasting class feature (or through Artificer Initiate, apparently), not "any spell that happens to be on the artificer spell list".
If it were the case that simply being on a class list counted as making the spell a [Class] spell, then the multiclassing rules which insist that you keep your spell lists firmly separate even if there are spells shared between them wouldn't make sense. A spell counts ONLY as a spell of the class whose feature granted you that spell, with the "[X] Initiate" spells counting as spells of their respective class.
There is, however, a two*-feat workaround for Chill Touch as an alchemist spell, if one is required to adhere strictly to raw. First, take Artificer Initiate and select Alchemist's Supplies as your "new" proficiency. This allows you to use alchemist's supplies as a focus for any spell that uses Intelligence as its casting ability. Now, use either Spell Sniper or any of the other dozen methods of gaining wizard cantrips to add Chill Touch as a wizard spell. Wizard spells cast with Intelligence, and thus you can use alchemist's supplies as a focus for them, and boom - you're now able to use the Alchemist's terrible level 5 class feature on your whatever-you-want spells, since alchemists don't specify "artificer spells". Only spells cast "with your alchemist's supplies as the focus."
Please do not contact or message me.
That is RAW for multiclassing, but not feats. I think we are, at best, speculating about RAI. (And getting into an argument about the designers' intents isn't worth derailing a thread.)
Were I betting on the intent (or some theoretically forthcoming Sage Advice), I'd bet that your interpretation is correct about Magic Initiate, but mine is more correct for Spell Sniper. Note how, in dndbeyond implementation at least, Spell Sniper is split up effectively by modifier, not class.
There is a problem with this. The Alchemist already gets Alchemy Supplies as a known artisan tool and the Artificer can use any artisan tool OR thieves tools to be able to cast their spell.
"TOOL PROFICIENCY
3rd-level Alchemist feature
You gain proficiency with alchemist's supplies. If you already have this proficiency, you gain proficiency with one other type of artisan's tools of your choice."
pg 14 of Tasha's.
Which Combines with:
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way."
So you would not be able to double up on tool proficiency and pick up Alchemist Supplies with the Feat and use it as a general spell focus. You've already got the supplies and they are already your spell casting tool when it comes to the Alchemical Savant feature.
As for the way that Spell Sniper is implemented in DDB when making characters. It actually IS broken down by class. For ease of implementation they just lumped all the classes that use the same Spell Casting Attribute (not simply modifier which is only based on said attribute), for ease of management and workings. the three Versions in it literally say the name of the classes that share the same spell casting attribute in the names of them on the list. This just makes it easier for the mechanics of the website to apply the right attribute to the spell to figure out the DC for you.
Nothing in Artificer Initiate says you can't pick a tool you already have proficiency in. Usually that just means you get to choose a new tool for your Alchemist feature. Even if you don't and 'waste' the extra tool proficiency, the important bit is Artificer Initiate granting you the ability to use Alchemist's Supplies as a spell focus for non-artificer Intelligence spells.
Also: Alchemist's Supplies count as a form of artisan's tool.
IF the DM for a home game has no issue with applying artificer bonuses to your Spell Sniper spell, go for it. it's the sort of thing a DM should probably let slide anyways if you're burning an entire feat for it. But altogether too many folks in these forums demand strict, absolute ironclad adherence to RAW> Those will need Artificer Initiate to get the Alchemist's terrible fifth-level ability working for non-artificer spells, and nothing turns a Spell Sniper spell into something applicable to an Artillerist's Arcane Firearm.
Please do not contact or message me.
The Tool proficiency's. Backgrounds, and other places like that actually say that you can't double pick. It doesn't need to be in the feat.
Medium Armor master as a Vuman with 16 dex has been fantastic.
Observant is good for everyone.
Aberrant Dragonmark just got my artificer immortality, which is nifty. Chill Touch and Comprehend Languages are a huge bonus. Now I want to go hunt down a sphinx.
Skilled/Prodigy are fantastic choices if you want to expand your versatility. We hit a point where I would pay masters to make the items our group didn't have proficiency with .
Mobile/sentry/warcaster, depends on what you need. Sentinel is great for keeping stuff near you, so is walking into combat and dropping a bunch of bear traps.
Finally a special mention to sharpshooter, crossbow expert, great weapon master, eldritch adept, and martial adept.
A variant human, custom lineage, or multiclass character that has already picked up an ASI can pick up Artificer Initiate for alchemist's supplies before acquiring the 3rd level of Alchemist. The alchemist would then pick an alternative tool at alchemist 3. Alchemical Savant specifies the use of alchemist's supplies, not the tools granted by the 3rd level ability. This is an easy work around to make what Yurei is talking about function just fine.
What kind of artificer are you making?
|| Sol Night-Arrow, Tabaxi Ranger ||
||Currently DMing a Homebrew Campaign ||
Guides or Important Threads of Mine ----- || List of ALL Official Familiars || My Homebrew Monsters ||
Level 3 One Shot Character Concepts ----- || Fist of the Gods || Triple Tap Hunter || Bullseye Dartmaster || Captain America ||
^^^Those are Links BTW^^^
He probably figured that out shortly after he started this thread a little over one year ago. Or at least, so I devoutly hope.
Please do not contact or message me.
OMG i have no idea how i ended up in this thread i must have messed up my sort lol
|| Sol Night-Arrow, Tabaxi Ranger ||
||Currently DMing a Homebrew Campaign ||
Guides or Important Threads of Mine ----- || List of ALL Official Familiars || My Homebrew Monsters ||
Level 3 One Shot Character Concepts ----- || Fist of the Gods || Triple Tap Hunter || Bullseye Dartmaster || Captain America ||
^^^Those are Links BTW^^^
No worries. Most of the class forums are eighty percent old-ass outdated threads anyways. Just gotta spark a different conversation is all.
Please do not contact or message me.
What is EAF? I have stared at you post for a good 5 min looked at the alchemist skills and I still cant come up with it.
Enhanced Arcane Focus. It's an infusion.
Let us refresh this thread with current Feats and let's divide them by subclass explaining why they are good for it.
Gladly! This thread was older than TCoE... so I wasn't surprised to see "Fey Touched" not mentioned.
But that is the Feat that I chose for my character. You get boost to INT, + Misty Step + another spell (1st level enchantment, I chose HEX)
Alternatively, Shadow Touched is similar, but you get Invisibility and Illusion or necromancy 1st level spell.
Both winners IMO
My main study on the class has been focused on Guardian armorer Artificer but I believe most of this applies to others
Shadow touched is also an excellent feat for artificers.
Invisibility is good and while it's second set of spells is meh compared to get touched it's still a solid half feat for added spell casting and versatility.
Assuming you know what role you're going to fill isn't easy for an Armorer.
Guardian mode provides disadvantage to enemies hit, and the temp hp pool that you're expected to "tank" with. That BA temp hp heal competes w our Homunculus Servant infusion BA attack by the by.
Infiltrator mode is usually my go to for the extra movemnt speed, ranged attacks, keep away stuff.
Woodelf for 40ft mvmnt speed, so..
Feats that tempt me - Mobile, Dual Wielder, Elven Accuracy, Telekinetic, Skill Expert, Gunner/Sharpshooter.
Background - Quandrix Allumni. 1st lvl spell - Healing word. Mage hand, Guidance as cantrips. Arcana+Nature, swapping Nature for Stealth, if allowed. Perception (Elf), trading weapon profs (Woodelf) for tool profs. Medicine and Slight of hand if trying to multiclass bladesinger, otherwise - 2 of History, Investigation, or Medicine. (Party comp matters here.)
Assuming you can get to Arcane Propulsion Armor infusion (lvl 14 iirc*), it stacking with your armors thunder gauntlets will provide the single biggest damage boost to your attacks you can find, ontop of making them thrown/ranged weapons that can use Intelligence, instead of STR OR DEX. (Of note - Armorers weapons, both of them, can use Intelligence instead of Strength or Dexterity. Meaning. If you got 25Str, you could use your strength modifier, for your lightning launcher. Likewise, you can use your Dex instead of Str for TG attacks. It's Litterally RAW. Can use int, instead of str or dex. Both weapons. Makes Stormgirdle so thematically appealing an Armorer can be a 1 man Avengers team. Just put Reduce/Enlarge on your ssi, order your servant to use the magic item on you and go have fun Hulk! Storm Avatar for Thor, Infiltrator for Ironman 90ft lightning blasts.. that are only 1d6+2+mod? Sharpshooter helps, but "arcane propulsion armor isn't a ranged weapon in the phb." /migrane)