I seem to remember a tweet about this somewhere where JC said that the only difference in using a magical weapon as an SSI wouldn't count as the Use an Object action to produce the spell's effect, so for example you couldn't use the extra action from Haste to produce Cure Wounds from the SSI if it were a magical object. As such, I've taken to making a mundane dagger into my SSI and keeping it on my artillerist's hip, just in case those corner cases come up.
He did make that tweet, but honestly it's a heckin' ridiculous tweet. Using one's SSI has nothing to do with the host item save that one can physically grasp it, putting artificial weirdboi limiters on it like 'if it's a magic item you can't use it with Haste because we at Wizards have decided we really hate Haste' makes no bloody sense. At my table that rule would be thrown right out; I'd recommend checking with the DM on any other tables.
He did make that tweet, but honestly it's a heckin' ridiculous tweet. Using one's SSI has nothing to do with the host item save that one can physically grasp it, putting artificial weirdboi limiters on it like 'if it's a magic item you can't use it with Haste because we at Wizards have decided we really hate Haste' makes no bloody sense. At my table that rule would be thrown right out; I'd recommend checking with the DM on any other tables.
Lol this was pretty much my exact reaction to it as well
OK So I gave the spell storing item a real workout yesterday and my conclusion is that if the artificer knows in advance what they will be facing and if they use a construct to wield the spell storing item then it can be busted. If you know exactly which spell will be needed in advance then suddenly having 8-10 of them on tap and only requiring a bonus action to command your construct then yes, they break encounters hard. I think to be honest that any smart well prepared spellcaster of that level has the potential to do that so its not unique to Artificers.
So yes, went against something that should have been overbearing for the party, Artificer had exactly the right spell stored and just shut down the opposition surprisingly hard. Could have taken the big boss down 1:1 probably but for RP reasons had to carry an unconscious friend out and forgo all the glory and treasure.
However if they do not know what is coming they will generally end up with something generic and good but not busted - like a load of healing. Sure its good but you already have mass healing spells in the game and a level 11 full caster can use them.
OK So I gave the spell storing item a real workout yesterday and my conclusion is that if the artificer knows in advance what they will be facing and if they use a construct to wield the spell storing item then it can be busted. If you know exactly which spell will be needed in advance then suddenly having 8-10 of them on tap and only requiring a bonus action to command your construct then yes, they break encounters hard. I think to be honest that any smart well prepared spellcaster of that level has the potential to do that so its not unique to Artificers.
So yes, went against something that should have been overbearing for the party, Artificer had exactly the right spell stored and just shut down the opposition surprisingly hard. Could have taken the big boss down 1:1 probably but for RP reasons had to carry an unconscious friend out and forgo all the glory and treasure.
However if they do not know what is coming they will generally end up with something generic and good but not busted - like a load of healing. Sure its good but you already have mass healing spells in the game and a level 11 full caster can use them.
Wait, are you saying that planning ahead and preparing for what you are up against is "broken"? Do clerics and paladins and wizard who also know what they are up against and thus preparing teh right spells also break encounters?
Wait, are you saying that planning ahead and preparing for what you are up against is "broken"? Do clerics and paladins and wizard who also know what they are up against and thus preparing teh right spells also break encounters?
No I am saying that spell storing item is very powerful at doing one thing really hard, if you know in advance what thing will be powerful and its available within your level 2 slots then it can entirely change an encounter. So in that particular circumstance it can feel busted. Preparing the right spells is good preparation, doing so with an extra 8-10 spells that will not even require an action or your concentration is really doubling down on that. But this ability to hand magical power to allies or constructs is fundamental to the play style of an artificer, we should not take it away.
Also I am saying that at level 11+ most classes have the ability to appear busted in exactly the right circumstances for them to shine so this is just part of the game. These are beginning to be characters with significant power.
Wait, are you saying that planning ahead and preparing for what you are up against is "broken"? Do clerics and paladins and wizard who also know what they are up against and thus preparing teh right spells also break encounters?
No I am saying that spell storing item is very powerful at doing one thing really hard, if you know in advance what thing will be powerful and its available within your level 2 slots then it can entirely change an encounter. So in that particular circumstance it can feel busted. Preparing the right spells is good preparation, doing so with an extra 8-10 spells that will not even require an action or your concentration is really doubling down on that. But this ability to hand magical power to allies or constructs is fundamental to the play style of an artificer, we should not take it away.
Also I am saying that at level 11+ most classes have the ability to appear busted in exactly the right circumstances for them to shine so this is just part of the game. These are beginning to be characters with significant power.
So are they "busted" or aren't they? Becuase you literally wrote "they break encounters hard" but then you claim that it's just a chance for them to shine and it being part of the game. Again, it's hard to see how, you know, using your abilities to the fullest and playing a high intelligence character (that artificers usually are) as someone who acts smart and prepares for what's ahead as "they break encounters hard".
You're basically saying "oh no, the 11th level fighter hit someone really hard three times in a row!" but with a different class and ability.
So I'm surprised nobody asked why SSI didn't say anything against upcasting. 2nd level cure wounds for a total of 20D8+50 of healing spread over a minute among the whole party. Unless I missed something.
Because you can't upcast anything from SSI. The spell is used at its lowest/default level, which would be 1 for Cure Wounds. To be fair, 10d8+50 is still a smackload of healing and shouldn't be underestimated, but no upcasting from SSI.
It's in the basic spellcasting rules. To 'upcast' a spell, you have to expend a spell slot of the higher level. You can only do that when expending a spell slot to cast the spell with a Spellcasting class feature. Any time an item allows you to cast spells, such as a Wand of Magic Moosiles, the spell is cast at its lowest possible level.
If I may build off of what Yurei has already said, the only other times a feature can upcast a spell is when an additional mechanism is provided for it, such as spells cast by the Four Elements Monk, or when it's written into the feature, such as the 2nd level Hellish Rebuke that Tieflings can cast from Infernal Legacy.
Wait, are you saying that planning ahead and preparing for what you are up against is "broken"? Do clerics and paladins and wizard who also know what they are up against and thus preparing teh right spells also break encounters?
No I am saying that spell storing item is very powerful at doing one thing really hard, if you know in advance what thing will be powerful and its available within your level 2 slots then it can entirely change an encounter. So in that particular circumstance it can feel busted. Preparing the right spells is good preparation, doing so with an extra 8-10 spells that will not even require an action or your concentration is really doubling down on that. But this ability to hand magical power to allies or constructs is fundamental to the play style of an artificer, we should not take it away.
Also I am saying that at level 11+ most classes have the ability to appear busted in exactly the right circumstances for them to shine so this is just part of the game. These are beginning to be characters with significant power.
So are they "busted" or aren't they? Becuase you literally wrote "they break encounters hard" but then you claim that it's just a chance for them to shine and it being part of the game. Again, it's hard to see how, you know, using your abilities to the fullest and playing a high intelligence character (that artificers usually are) as someone who acts smart and prepares for what's ahead as "they break encounters hard".
You're basically saying "oh no, the 11th level fighter hit someone really hard three times in a row!" but with a different class and ability.
He's wrong anyway. They do require an action to use the SSI. He makes it sound like it can be used plus a full turn can be taken and this actually isn't true.
To make a Homunculus or a Steel Defender use an action you must use your bonus action to make it do so. So it's no different from taking a spell like Magic Missile on a Sorcerer. Casting the spell 8 or 10 times but using a Sorcery point to quick cast it as your bonus action. It's only advantage over doing it this way is that it doesn't stop you from casting a second spell. But it also stops the Artificer from using their bonus actions for anything else to make this happen. This could be considered slightly stronger theoretically but the reality it is not all that much and really not at all for any DM that planned their encounters with the extra support of the Steel Defender or the Homunculus anyway which are sort of like half characters in some ways because it's never really a full character since it doesn't have an ability to use bonus actions and it can only attack when you sacrifice part of your action economy to do so. Any prepared full caster is likely going to do way more than any "pet" with the ability to cast a low level spell a few times.
Wait, are you saying that planning ahead and preparing for what you are up against is "broken"? Do clerics and paladins and wizard who also know what they are up against and thus preparing teh right spells also break encounters?
No I am saying that spell storing item is very powerful at doing one thing really hard, if you know in advance what thing will be powerful and its available within your level 2 slots then it can entirely change an encounter. So in that particular circumstance it can feel busted. Preparing the right spells is good preparation, doing so with an extra 8-10 spells that will not even require an action or your concentration is really doubling down on that. But this ability to hand magical power to allies or constructs is fundamental to the play style of an artificer, we should not take it away.
Also I am saying that at level 11+ most classes have the ability to appear busted in exactly the right circumstances for them to shine so this is just part of the game. These are beginning to be characters with significant power.
So are they "busted" or aren't they? Becuase you literally wrote "they break encounters hard" but then you claim that it's just a chance for them to shine and it being part of the game. Again, it's hard to see how, you know, using your abilities to the fullest and playing a high intelligence character (that artificers usually are) as someone who acts smart and prepares for what's ahead as "they break encounters hard".
You're basically saying "oh no, the 11th level fighter hit someone really hard three times in a row!" but with a different class and ability.
He's wrong anyway. They do require an action to use the SSI. He makes it sound like it can be used plus a full turn can be taken and this actually isn't true.
To make a Homunculus or a Steel Defender use an action you must use your bonus action to make it do so. So it's no different from taking a spell like Magic Missile on a Sorcerer. Casting the spell 8 or 10 times but using a Sorcery point to quick cast it as your bonus action. It's only advantage over doing it this way is that it doesn't stop you from casting a second spell. But it also stops the Artificer from using their bonus actions for anything else to make this happen. This could be considered slightly stronger theoretically but the reality it is not all that much and really not at all for any DM that planned their encounters with the extra support of the Steel Defender or the Homunculus anyway which are sort of like half characters in some ways because it's never really a full character since it doesn't have an ability to use bonus actions and it can only attack when you sacrifice part of your action economy to do so. Any prepared full caster is likely going to do way more than any "pet" with the ability to cast a low level spell a few times.
You say that like sorcerers can quicken 10 2nd-level spells at 11th level.
When SSI comes online it's very strong. Full caster progression has 16 spell slots at 11th level. Artificers have 10 spell slots and add 10 uses of SSI. The sorcerer can create up to 5 low level slots or quicken up to 5 spells as either/or instead of both number (10) and via bonus action. Ritual caster is also a class feature to stretch that out.
Sorcs also know 12 spells at that level while artificers prep 10 spells and have an additional 6 by subclass for more spells known.
The difference isn't in what a sorcerer does quickening low level spells because that would be fewer and limited to cantrips for the other spell. The sorc is behind in trying. The difference is in what sorcerers can do with higher level spells.
Artificers get a lot of weaker magic and don't gain higher levels of magic.
Alchemists add 6 more 1st-level "spells known" via elixirs, can cast lesser restoration up to 5 times to save preparing the spell and using slots, and have 2 freebie 1st-level "slots" from bonus elixirs.
That's 24 low level spell (or equivalent) known and 22-27 spells (or equivalent) cast (plus rituals) compared to sorcerers 12 spells known and 16 (up to 21 creating slots) plus subclass options.
Base class is looking at at least 16 spells prepped (all subclasses add spells) versus 12 spells known and 20 spells (10 slots+10 SSI) versus 16 spell slots.
A person is generally looking at quickening 5 spells for a sorc or recovering 4 slots (5 spell levels) on a wizard. The 10 extra 2nd-level spells with the SSI that can also be used as a free action without costing a resource like sorc points is a huge jump in comparison.
Also, the sorc would also be giving up any other bonus action so I'm unclear on your action economy point.
If it looks like I rambled a bit I apologize. It's late here. ;)
You say that like sorcerers can quicken 10 2nd-level spells at 11th level.
When SSI comes online it's very strong. Full caster progression has 16 spell slots at 11th level. Artificers have 10 spell slots and add 10 uses of SSI. The sorcerer can create up to 5 low level slots or quicken up to 5 spells as either/or instead of both number (10) and via bonus action. Ritual caster is also a class feature to stretch that out.
Sorcs also know 12 spells at that level while artificers prep 10 spells and have an additional 6 by subclass for more spells known.
The difference isn't in what a sorcerer does quickening low level spells because that would be fewer and limited to cantrips for the other spell. The sorc is behind in trying. The difference is in what sorcerers can do with higher level spells.
Artificers get a lot of weaker magic and don't gain higher levels of magic.
Alchemists add 6 more 1st-level "spells known" via elixirs, can cast lesser restoration up to 5 times to save preparing the spell and using slots, and have 2 freebie 1st-level "slots" from bonus elixirs.
That's 24 low level spell (or equivalent) known and 22-27 spells (or equivalent) cast (plus rituals) compared to sorcerers 12 spells known and 16 (up to 21 creating slots) plus subclass options.
Base class is looking at at least 16 spells prepped (all subclasses add spells) versus 12 spells known and 20 spells (10 slots+10 SSI) versus 16 spell slots.
A person is generally looking at quickening 5 spells for a sorc or recovering 4 slots (5 spell levels) on a wizard. The 10 extra 2nd-level spells with the SSI that can also be used as a free action without costing a resource like sorc points is a huge jump in comparison.
Also, the sorc would also be giving up any other bonus action so I'm unclear on your action economy point.
If it looks like I rambled a bit I apologize. It's late here. ;)
All of this. I have played a Tier-3 Alchemist Artificer and you get a lot of low level magic. So much that you can start to look at ways to burst-cast things, the obvious way as mentioned all over the place is with Tiny Servants. You can give all your Tiny Servants the same command with a single Bonus Action - which is then how you can dump multiple spells from the SSI in a single turn. Then the Tiny Servants can hold concentration - its like the benefits of quickening on top of the benefits of twinning. That combination is very effective in the action economy of combat. I mean you could limit yourself to just your Homunculus with the SSI but players self-limiting their characters for RP reasons is another discussion entirely.
So I am not "wrong" and it is plainly there in the rules that using an obvious combination of class spells and class features they can put out more than one spell cast with a single bonus action - and it does not count as their spell cast so they can still go ahead and use their action for casting another levelled spell. The limitations are that all the spells are the same spell and given the nature of the way you are using the Bonus Action they all have the same target, whether or not that sort of focus fire is what you want is situational.
Of course as I said this is tier-3 play, most tier-3 characters have some special schtick that the GM needs to know about and allow for in encounter design or else the encounters just get wrecked. The artificer one is different to other classes and the GM needs to be aware of that to make encounters which are still interesting. I don't think its inherently more powerful than what full casters get at level 11, its just different and that just adds a different thing the GM needs to consider when building the encounter.
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A +1 weapon and a Frostbrand are both simple or martial weapons. You are correct, the feature does not distinguish between mundane or magical gear.
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I seem to remember a tweet about this somewhere where JC said that the only difference in using a magical weapon as an SSI wouldn't count as the Use an Object action to produce the spell's effect, so for example you couldn't use the extra action from Haste to produce Cure Wounds from the SSI if it were a magical object. As such, I've taken to making a mundane dagger into my SSI and keeping it on my artillerist's hip, just in case those corner cases come up.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
He did make that tweet, but honestly it's a heckin' ridiculous tweet. Using one's SSI has nothing to do with the host item save that one can physically grasp it, putting artificial weirdboi limiters on it like 'if it's a magic item you can't use it with Haste because we at Wizards have decided we really hate Haste' makes no bloody sense. At my table that rule would be thrown right out; I'd recommend checking with the DM on any other tables.
Please do not contact or message me.
Lol this was pretty much my exact reaction to it as well
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
No one has brought up the fact that an SSI counts as an infused item so they can only have a limited number.
No, SSI doesn't count as an infused item. You still can only have one, since the first item will loose it's effects when you instill a second one.
OK So I gave the spell storing item a real workout yesterday and my conclusion is that if the artificer knows in advance what they will be facing and if they use a construct to wield the spell storing item then it can be busted. If you know exactly which spell will be needed in advance then suddenly having 8-10 of them on tap and only requiring a bonus action to command your construct then yes, they break encounters hard. I think to be honest that any smart well prepared spellcaster of that level has the potential to do that so its not unique to Artificers.
So yes, went against something that should have been overbearing for the party, Artificer had exactly the right spell stored and just shut down the opposition surprisingly hard. Could have taken the big boss down 1:1 probably but for RP reasons had to carry an unconscious friend out and forgo all the glory and treasure.
However if they do not know what is coming they will generally end up with something generic and good but not busted - like a load of healing. Sure its good but you already have mass healing spells in the game and a level 11 full caster can use them.
Wait, are you saying that planning ahead and preparing for what you are up against is "broken"? Do clerics and paladins and wizard who also know what they are up against and thus preparing teh right spells also break encounters?
No I am saying that spell storing item is very powerful at doing one thing really hard, if you know in advance what thing will be powerful and its available within your level 2 slots then it can entirely change an encounter. So in that particular circumstance it can feel busted. Preparing the right spells is good preparation, doing so with an extra 8-10 spells that will not even require an action or your concentration is really doubling down on that. But this ability to hand magical power to allies or constructs is fundamental to the play style of an artificer, we should not take it away.
Also I am saying that at level 11+ most classes have the ability to appear busted in exactly the right circumstances for them to shine so this is just part of the game. These are beginning to be characters with significant power.
So are they "busted" or aren't they? Becuase you literally wrote "they break encounters hard" but then you claim that it's just a chance for them to shine and it being part of the game. Again, it's hard to see how, you know, using your abilities to the fullest and playing a high intelligence character (that artificers usually are) as someone who acts smart and prepares for what's ahead as "they break encounters hard".
You're basically saying "oh no, the 11th level fighter hit someone really hard three times in a row!" but with a different class and ability.
So I'm surprised nobody asked why SSI didn't say anything against upcasting. 2nd level cure wounds for a total of 20D8+50 of healing spread over a minute among the whole party. Unless I missed something.
Because you can't upcast anything from SSI. The spell is used at its lowest/default level, which would be 1 for Cure Wounds. To be fair, 10d8+50 is still a smackload of healing and shouldn't be underestimated, but no upcasting from SSI.
Please do not contact or message me.
Where does it say you can't upcast is it a JC tweet or Sage Advice. I'm not seeing that in the Eberron book or in the Compendium.
It's in the basic spellcasting rules. To 'upcast' a spell, you have to expend a spell slot of the higher level. You can only do that when expending a spell slot to cast the spell with a Spellcasting class feature. Any time an item allows you to cast spells, such as a Wand of Magic Moosiles, the spell is cast at its lowest possible level.
Please do not contact or message me.
If I may build off of what Yurei has already said, the only other times a feature can upcast a spell is when an additional mechanism is provided for it, such as spells cast by the Four Elements Monk, or when it's written into the feature, such as the 2nd level Hellish Rebuke that Tieflings can cast from Infernal Legacy.
He's wrong anyway. They do require an action to use the SSI. He makes it sound like it can be used plus a full turn can be taken and this actually isn't true.
To make a Homunculus or a Steel Defender use an action you must use your bonus action to make it do so. So it's no different from taking a spell like Magic Missile on a Sorcerer. Casting the spell 8 or 10 times but using a Sorcery point to quick cast it as your bonus action. It's only advantage over doing it this way is that it doesn't stop you from casting a second spell. But it also stops the Artificer from using their bonus actions for anything else to make this happen. This could be considered slightly stronger theoretically but the reality it is not all that much and really not at all for any DM that planned their encounters with the extra support of the Steel Defender or the Homunculus anyway which are sort of like half characters in some ways because it's never really a full character since it doesn't have an ability to use bonus actions and it can only attack when you sacrifice part of your action economy to do so. Any prepared full caster is likely going to do way more than any "pet" with the ability to cast a low level spell a few times.
You say that like sorcerers can quicken 10 2nd-level spells at 11th level.
When SSI comes online it's very strong. Full caster progression has 16 spell slots at 11th level. Artificers have 10 spell slots and add 10 uses of SSI. The sorcerer can create up to 5 low level slots or quicken up to 5 spells as either/or instead of both number (10) and via bonus action. Ritual caster is also a class feature to stretch that out.
Sorcs also know 12 spells at that level while artificers prep 10 spells and have an additional 6 by subclass for more spells known.
The difference isn't in what a sorcerer does quickening low level spells because that would be fewer and limited to cantrips for the other spell. The sorc is behind in trying. The difference is in what sorcerers can do with higher level spells.
Artificers get a lot of weaker magic and don't gain higher levels of magic.
Alchemists add 6 more 1st-level "spells known" via elixirs, can cast lesser restoration up to 5 times to save preparing the spell and using slots, and have 2 freebie 1st-level "slots" from bonus elixirs.
That's 24 low level spell (or equivalent) known and 22-27 spells (or equivalent) cast (plus rituals) compared to sorcerers 12 spells known and 16 (up to 21 creating slots) plus subclass options.
Base class is looking at at least 16 spells prepped (all subclasses add spells) versus 12 spells known and 20 spells (10 slots+10 SSI) versus 16 spell slots.
A person is generally looking at quickening 5 spells for a sorc or recovering 4 slots (5 spell levels) on a wizard. The 10 extra 2nd-level spells with the SSI that can also be used as a free action without costing a resource like sorc points is a huge jump in comparison.
Also, the sorc would also be giving up any other bonus action so I'm unclear on your action economy point.
If it looks like I rambled a bit I apologize. It's late here. ;)
All of this. I have played a Tier-3 Alchemist Artificer and you get a lot of low level magic. So much that you can start to look at ways to burst-cast things, the obvious way as mentioned all over the place is with Tiny Servants. You can give all your Tiny Servants the same command with a single Bonus Action - which is then how you can dump multiple spells from the SSI in a single turn. Then the Tiny Servants can hold concentration - its like the benefits of quickening on top of the benefits of twinning. That combination is very effective in the action economy of combat. I mean you could limit yourself to just your Homunculus with the SSI but players self-limiting their characters for RP reasons is another discussion entirely.
So I am not "wrong" and it is plainly there in the rules that using an obvious combination of class spells and class features they can put out more than one spell cast with a single bonus action - and it does not count as their spell cast so they can still go ahead and use their action for casting another levelled spell. The limitations are that all the spells are the same spell and given the nature of the way you are using the Bonus Action they all have the same target, whether or not that sort of focus fire is what you want is situational.
Of course as I said this is tier-3 play, most tier-3 characters have some special schtick that the GM needs to know about and allow for in encounter design or else the encounters just get wrecked. The artificer one is different to other classes and the GM needs to be aware of that to make encounters which are still interesting. I don't think its inherently more powerful than what full casters get at level 11, its just different and that just adds a different thing the GM needs to consider when building the encounter.