Wait, are you saying that planning ahead and preparing for what you are up against is "broken"? Do clerics and paladins and wizard who also know what they are up against and thus preparing teh right spells also break encounters?
No I am saying that spell storing item is very powerful at doing one thing really hard, if you know in advance what thing will be powerful and its available within your level 2 slots then it can entirely change an encounter. So in that particular circumstance it can feel busted. Preparing the right spells is good preparation, doing so with an extra 8-10 spells that will not even require an action or your concentration is really doubling down on that. But this ability to hand magical power to allies or constructs is fundamental to the play style of an artificer, we should not take it away.
Also I am saying that at level 11+ most classes have the ability to appear busted in exactly the right circumstances for them to shine so this is just part of the game. These are beginning to be characters with significant power.
So are they "busted" or aren't they? Becuase you literally wrote "they break encounters hard" but then you claim that it's just a chance for them to shine and it being part of the game. Again, it's hard to see how, you know, using your abilities to the fullest and playing a high intelligence character (that artificers usually are) as someone who acts smart and prepares for what's ahead as "they break encounters hard".
You're basically saying "oh no, the 11th level fighter hit someone really hard three times in a row!" but with a different class and ability.
He's wrong anyway. They do require an action to use the SSI. He makes it sound like it can be used plus a full turn can be taken and this actually isn't true.
To make a Homunculus or a Steel Defender use an action you must use your bonus action to make it do so. So it's no different from taking a spell like Magic Missile on a Sorcerer. Casting the spell 8 or 10 times but using a Sorcery point to quick cast it as your bonus action. It's only advantage over doing it this way is that it doesn't stop you from casting a second spell. But it also stops the Artificer from using their bonus actions for anything else to make this happen. This could be considered slightly stronger theoretically but the reality it is not all that much and really not at all for any DM that planned their encounters with the extra support of the Steel Defender or the Homunculus anyway which are sort of like half characters in some ways because it's never really a full character since it doesn't have an ability to use bonus actions and it can only attack when you sacrifice part of your action economy to do so. Any prepared full caster is likely going to do way more than any "pet" with the ability to cast a low level spell a few times.
You say that like sorcerers can quicken 10 2nd-level spells at 11th level.
When SSI comes online it's very strong. Full caster progression has 16 spell slots at 11th level. Artificers have 10 spell slots and add 10 uses of SSI. The sorcerer can create up to 5 low level slots or quicken up to 5 spells as either/or instead of both number (10) and via bonus action. Ritual caster is also a class feature to stretch that out.
Sorcs also know 12 spells at that level while artificers prep 10 spells and have an additional 6 by subclass for more spells known.
The difference isn't in what a sorcerer does quickening low level spells because that would be fewer and limited to cantrips for the other spell. The sorc is behind in trying. The difference is in what sorcerers can do with higher level spells.
Artificers get a lot of weaker magic and don't gain higher levels of magic.
Alchemists add 6 more 1st-level "spells known" via elixirs, can cast lesser restoration up to 5 times to save preparing the spell and using slots, and have 2 freebie 1st-level "slots" from bonus elixirs.
That's 24 low level spell (or equivalent) known and 22-27 spells (or equivalent) cast (plus rituals) compared to sorcerers 12 spells known and 16 (up to 21 creating slots) plus subclass options.
Base class is looking at at least 16 spells prepped (all subclasses add spells) versus 12 spells known and 20 spells (10 slots+10 SSI) versus 16 spell slots.
A person is generally looking at quickening 5 spells for a sorc or recovering 4 slots (5 spell levels) on a wizard. The 10 extra 2nd-level spells with the SSI that can also be used as a free action without costing a resource like sorc points is a huge jump in comparison.
Also, the sorc would also be giving up any other bonus action so I'm unclear on your action economy point.
If it looks like I rambled a bit I apologize. It's late here. ;)
That sorcerer has something far more efficient to do with it's resources and can do plenty of them simply by casting higher level spells for better action economy than a bunch of spammed level 1 or level 2 spells. my point was more that other classes can do such things if they really really want to. Even if it's not going to all be over 1 battle. They still have things that they can do that are effectively similar and in fact in some ways better because they are not limited to just the first or second level spells that are largely support so multiple castings tend to be relatively pointless.
You say that like sorcerers can quicken 10 2nd-level spells at 11th level.
When SSI comes online it's very strong. Full caster progression has 16 spell slots at 11th level. Artificers have 10 spell slots and add 10 uses of SSI. The sorcerer can create up to 5 low level slots or quicken up to 5 spells as either/or instead of both number (10) and via bonus action. Ritual caster is also a class feature to stretch that out.
Sorcs also know 12 spells at that level while artificers prep 10 spells and have an additional 6 by subclass for more spells known.
The difference isn't in what a sorcerer does quickening low level spells because that would be fewer and limited to cantrips for the other spell. The sorc is behind in trying. The difference is in what sorcerers can do with higher level spells.
Artificers get a lot of weaker magic and don't gain higher levels of magic.
Alchemists add 6 more 1st-level "spells known" via elixirs, can cast lesser restoration up to 5 times to save preparing the spell and using slots, and have 2 freebie 1st-level "slots" from bonus elixirs.
That's 24 low level spell (or equivalent) known and 22-27 spells (or equivalent) cast (plus rituals) compared to sorcerers 12 spells known and 16 (up to 21 creating slots) plus subclass options.
Base class is looking at at least 16 spells prepped (all subclasses add spells) versus 12 spells known and 20 spells (10 slots+10 SSI) versus 16 spell slots.
A person is generally looking at quickening 5 spells for a sorc or recovering 4 slots (5 spell levels) on a wizard. The 10 extra 2nd-level spells with the SSI that can also be used as a free action without costing a resource like sorc points is a huge jump in comparison.
Also, the sorc would also be giving up any other bonus action so I'm unclear on your action economy point.
If it looks like I rambled a bit I apologize. It's late here. ;)
All of this. I have played a Tier-3 Alchemist Artificer and you get a lot of low level magic. So much that you can start to look at ways to burst-cast things, the obvious way as mentioned all over the place is with Tiny Servants. You can give all your Tiny Servants the same command with a single Bonus Action - which is then how you can dump multiple spells from the SSI in a single turn. Then the Tiny Servants can hold concentration - its like the benefits of quickening on top of the benefits of twinning. That combination is very effective in the action economy of combat. I mean you could limit yourself to just your Homunculus with the SSI but players self-limiting their characters for RP reasons is another discussion entirely.
So I am not "wrong" and it is plainly there in the rules that using an obvious combination of class spells and class features they can put out more than one spell cast with a single bonus action - and it does not count as their spell cast so they can still go ahead and use their action for casting another levelled spell. The limitations are that all the spells are the same spell and given the nature of the way you are using the Bonus Action they all have the same target, whether or not that sort of focus fire is what you want is situational.
Of course as I said this is tier-3 play, most tier-3 characters have some special schtick that the GM needs to know about and allow for in encounter design or else the encounters just get wrecked. The artificer one is different to other classes and the GM needs to be aware of that to make encounters which are still interesting. I don't think its inherently more powerful than what full casters get at level 11, its just different and that just adds a different thing the GM needs to consider when building the encounter.
Doesn't matter how many tiny servants you can trigger at once. They are an infusion and thus can only exist one at a time. So it's pointless that you can command 10 of them on a single bonus action because you can't actually have 10 of them at once because other rules get in the way. There is also the issue that it takes actions to pass these times around as well. your actually overstating these possibilities here. The point is that sure you can throw a lot of low level spells at something. And sure they can be useful if prepared with advanced knowledge but that is no different from exactly other spell caster. Even with the special factors of the SSI.
Tiny servant is a spell. You're thinking of the Homunculus Servant infusion.
You may be right. I am also very tired and just checkig in on a small amount of free time after days of extensive packing for a family friend with much more to go.
Doesn't matter how many tiny servants you can trigger at once. They are an infusion and thus can only exist one at a time. So it's pointless that you can command 10 of them on a single bonus action because you can't actually have 10 of them at once because other rules get in the way. There is also the issue that it takes actions to pass these times around as well. your actually overstating these possibilities here. The point is that sure you can throw a lot of low level spells at something. And sure they can be useful if prepared with advanced knowledge but that is no different from exactly other spell caster. Even with the special factors of the SSI.
No, Tiny Servant is a spell and when you upcast it with a higher level slot you get multiples of them per casting. It lasts 8 hours so it is quite normal for higher level artificers to have multiples of them hanging around. As they have blindsight you can put them in a bag to keep them safe without hindering their ability to do things for you.
This is a fairly well explored combination and you will see articles on it if you look around the internet, it works very well. The possibilities are pretty much as I described, look up the spell and if you are still at a loss to understand them use google to find some of the more complete descriptions of the trick elsewhere.
I have a question about the SSI. Do I have to provide material components for the storing of the spell? The description doesn't outright say it, but I assume it is implied.
The way it is described you never actually cast the spell which is in the spell storing item. Storing it does not require you to have it prepared so you are clearly not casting it. When you use the item you produce the effect of the spell rather than actually cast the spell.
As you never actually cast the spell and it never mentions you requiring any components I think it is fairly clear you do not need any components, including material components. I don't think you can really do much to exploit this, the only spell I can think of which you could cast this way which has an expendable component is Arcane Lock and I hardly think that 25gp saving is going to be significant to any 11th level character able to do this.
You can use it with Continual Flame, too. That one has a required 50gp of ruby dust. There might be some creative uses for those spells (lock every door you're coming throu - set a bunch of things "on fire") but it seems hardly broken.
The way it is described you never actually cast the spell which is in the spell storing item. Storing it does not require you to have it prepared so you are clearly not casting it. When you use the item you produce the effect of the spell rather than actually cast the spell.
As you never actually cast the spell and it never mentions you requiring any components I think it is fairly clear you do not need any components, including material components. I don't think you can really do much to exploit this, the only spell I can think of which you could cast this way which has an expendable component is Arcane Lock and I hardly think that 25gp saving is going to be significant to any 11th level character able to do this.
You can use it with Continual Flame, too. That one has a required 50gp of ruby dust. There might be some creative uses for those spells (lock every door you're coming throu - set a bunch of things "on fire") but it seems hardly broken.
I don't know why but I was imagining I could use Revivify with it, but that is a 3rd level spell
You can use it with Continual Flame, too. That one has a required 50gp of ruby dust. There might be some creative uses for those spells (lock every door you're coming throu - set a bunch of things "on fire") but it seems hardly broken.
Good spot, a spell I have literally never used in-game or even prepared. I have at least used Arcane Lock a couple of times.
I have used it on swords and when it doesn't cost anything you can create some cold torches you can use under water and such, you can also use it on arrows or bolts so you'll have a great signaling method.
I play an artificer/Wizard and I built a robot camera fly and stored Thunderbolt in it at 2nd level and as long as your not in combat an action is 1 sec and I used all ten slots at once or 10 sec I rolled 28d8........... it can be overpowered
I've never heard of a rule declaring that actions take less time out of combat. Assuming this is an artillerist and Thunderbolt means Thunderwave, you can get 20d8 over ten turns, yeah. You don't get the extra damage from your Arcane Firearm though, since the spell needs to be cast using the AF and SSI specifically cannot do so.
I've never heard of a rule declaring that actions take less time out of combat. Assuming this is an artillerist and Thunderbolt means Thunderwave, you can get 20d8 over ten turns, yeah. You don't get the extra damage from your Arcane Firearm though, since the spell needs to be cast using the AF and SSI specifically cannot do so.
Elsewise I'm not sure where 28d8 comes from?
I'm also curious of the concept of attacks being made outside of combat and multiple actions being taken simultaneously.
I think it's one of those things that sounds great at first but somewhat falls apart when you're actually trying to use it. I actually thought it was a pretty average for a high level core feature, at least with the artificer spell list.
Most utility spells that you would want to cast often are ritual spells anyway, you get this at the same level when cantrips with arcane firearm effectively make 1st and 2nd level offensive spells obsolete and things like feather fall, shield and absorb elements can't be used with it effectively because it takes and action to use. It's great for saving you concentration on something like blur or enhance ability which is nice but usually non casters will be much better off using their action for something other than a support spell unless they can get the drop on their enemy. Other than that there are very few situations when casting the same 1st/2nd level spell 10 times is gonna be that useful unless you know exactly what you're up against and even then I can't think of any situation where I would consider any 1st and 2nd level spell close to game breaking. Now if this allowed you to store more than 1 spell or included 3rd level spells it would be a different story but as it is I thinks it's main use that isn't situational is a decent chunk of out of combat healing with cure wounds.
It's not terrible by any means but it's also not that great and you might have it for session after session without finding a good use for it if you get a bit unlucky with your spell choices.
The spell storing item isn't that broken. Having played as an artificer with it and DMed, all it does is give a little bit of utility. A warlock, for example, at level 15 can cast invisibility at will, giving that rogue the same constant invisibility so they can go ahead and scout.
In combat, it's largely useless unless you're trying to run away. This item allows anyone to use it, so long as they themselves have the item. But that's the stipulation. It's an item that can be used cleverly, but can also go poorly (it has to be a weapon or arcane focus. You get arrested those get taken away, there goes that. The warlock can keep casting though.)
Healing word doesn't work, as it has to be an action based spell.
In one of my games I stored Cure Wounds, because we didn't habe a healer. It amounts to 10d8+50 healing, but takes an action to cast it just once. Outside of combat, it can be really handy. Slightly better then the Paladin lay on hands to keep the party going. But again, nothing breaking.
Before you decide to remove a core class feature, let it be used in your game. If it's abused, talk with the player about how to make it fair. I personally don't think it'll mess with anything (again, artificer is support. Their spells are largely concentration. This gives them the ability to buff multiple allies at the cost of their own concentration.) But who knows!
Just remember that the spell stored has to be cast as an action. Shield, healing word, etc don't work.
That sorcerer has something far more efficient to do with it's resources and can do plenty of them simply by casting higher level spells for better action economy than a bunch of spammed level 1 or level 2 spells. my point was more that other classes can do such things if they really really want to. Even if it's not going to all be over 1 battle. They still have things that they can do that are effectively similar and in fact in some ways better because they are not limited to just the first or second level spells that are largely support so multiple castings tend to be relatively pointless.
Doesn't matter how many tiny servants you can trigger at once. They are an infusion and thus can only exist one at a time. So it's pointless that you can command 10 of them on a single bonus action because you can't actually have 10 of them at once because other rules get in the way. There is also the issue that it takes actions to pass these times around as well. your actually overstating these possibilities here. The point is that sure you can throw a lot of low level spells at something. And sure they can be useful if prepared with advanced knowledge but that is no different from exactly other spell caster. Even with the special factors of the SSI.
Tiny servant is a spell. You're thinking of the Homunculus Servant infusion.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You may be right. I am also very tired and just checkig in on a small amount of free time after days of extensive packing for a family friend with much more to go.
No, Tiny Servant is a spell and when you upcast it with a higher level slot you get multiples of them per casting. It lasts 8 hours so it is quite normal for higher level artificers to have multiples of them hanging around. As they have blindsight you can put them in a bag to keep them safe without hindering their ability to do things for you.
Tiny Servant spell
This is a fairly well explored combination and you will see articles on it if you look around the internet, it works very well. The possibilities are pretty much as I described, look up the spell and if you are still at a loss to understand them use google to find some of the more complete descriptions of the trick elsewhere.
I have a question about the SSI. Do I have to provide material components for the storing of the spell? The description doesn't outright say it, but I assume it is implied.
The way it is described you never actually cast the spell which is in the spell storing item. Storing it does not require you to have it prepared so you are clearly not casting it. When you use the item you produce the effect of the spell rather than actually cast the spell.
As you never actually cast the spell and it never mentions you requiring any components I think it is fairly clear you do not need any components, including material components. I don't think you can really do much to exploit this, the only spell I can think of which you could cast this way which has an expendable component is Arcane Lock and I hardly think that 25gp saving is going to be significant to any 11th level character able to do this.
You can use it with Continual Flame, too. That one has a required 50gp of ruby dust. There might be some creative uses for those spells (lock every door you're coming throu - set a bunch of things "on fire") but it seems hardly broken.
I don't know why but I was imagining I could use Revivify with it, but that is a 3rd level spell
Good spot, a spell I have literally never used in-game or even prepared. I have at least used Arcane Lock a couple of times.
I have used it on swords and when it doesn't cost anything you can create some cold torches you can use under water and such, you can also use it on arrows or bolts so you'll have a great signaling method.
it doesn’t say that it makes the item magical and it doesn’t specify the original item to be non magical so it should work
I play an artificer/Wizard and I built a robot camera fly and stored Thunderbolt in it at 2nd level and as long as your not in combat an action is 1 sec and I used all ten slots at once or 10 sec I rolled 28d8........... it can be overpowered
I've never heard of a rule declaring that actions take less time out of combat. Assuming this is an artillerist and Thunderbolt means Thunderwave, you can get 20d8 over ten turns, yeah. You don't get the extra damage from your Arcane Firearm though, since the spell needs to be cast using the AF and SSI specifically cannot do so.
Elsewise I'm not sure where 28d8 comes from?
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I'm also curious of the concept of attacks being made outside of combat and multiple actions being taken simultaneously.
I think it's one of those things that sounds great at first but somewhat falls apart when you're actually trying to use it. I actually thought it was a pretty average for a high level core feature, at least with the artificer spell list.
Most utility spells that you would want to cast often are ritual spells anyway, you get this at the same level when cantrips with arcane firearm effectively make 1st and 2nd level offensive spells obsolete and things like feather fall, shield and absorb elements can't be used with it effectively because it takes and action to use. It's great for saving you concentration on something like blur or enhance ability which is nice but usually non casters will be much better off using their action for something other than a support spell unless they can get the drop on their enemy.
Other than that there are very few situations when casting the same 1st/2nd level spell 10 times is gonna be that useful unless you know exactly what you're up against and even then I can't think of any situation where I would consider any 1st and 2nd level spell close to game breaking.
Now if this allowed you to store more than 1 spell or included 3rd level spells it would be a different story but as it is I thinks it's main use that isn't situational is a decent chunk of out of combat healing with cure wounds.
It's not terrible by any means but it's also not that great and you might have it for session after session without finding a good use for it if you get a bit unlucky with your spell choices.
Can you store cure wounds at the second level?