"Permanent" isn't a tag that appears on items and as such is basically fluff. A consumable item is also permanent insomuch as the magic will stay in the item permanently unless used.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I’m with you that the tattoo should not be a valid choice here is the problem: when making a character in DDB and taking the replicate item infusion when you read the text for it and the lists of what can be replicated the tattoos are not there, but when you scroll through the options you can select they are. So many folks think they can take these disposable items and then compound the problem by making tens to hundreds of them assuming that once the needle was used to make the tattoo the infusion is freed for the next one and the spell can still be cast from the tattoo. IMO this is clearly broken since the tattoo is not a permanent item. So how do you explain it if your going to allow it? ( Obviously the best route is to simply ban it and tell players they have to stick to the published lists not the selection options which appear to be broken) Anything forces the discussion past RAW to RAI , and that calls for deeper dive into the rest of the artificer and infusion text to see if their is a common underlining theme that can be used to explain what must be happening to allow the tattoo to function in an unbroken way. Hence my explanation. It’s my current take on how the artificer and their infusions etc work.
Nothing on the list is "broken" and is all 100% legal, as it clearly states you can replicate ANY COMMON magical item. The list is just to limit the Uncommon and Rare items you can replicate. A one time use lv 1 spell or cantrip isn't broken by any means. So what, you have a familiar, and? Part of DND is not only to make the journey fun for the players, but also the DM. So what, your players are wanting to go and sell a tattoo for 10g a pop, let them. After the 2nd time, make it harder to do so. Ex, other tattoo shop hires thugs to beat the crap out of the team. Ex. word gets around that even though your tattoos are good deals, last person got sick. Ex. let them do it a million times, then let them wake up one day and be told it was all stolen and there are absolutely no clues to be able to locate it. Teaching them to stop wasting damn time.
I mean part of the DM's job is to push the group along in the end. Simply cutting out a 100% legally written rule for a class, depending on how you do it matters most, but overall, it is just overly controlling. What other legally written rules will be cut?
What's most amazing to me is that so many people think everyone would take this. It's a one time use ability that can only recharge after a long rest. It is not exactly game changing or even practical to use. Sure, if you had a massive amount of downtime, then yea, make a little side money, but in general, no one would ever take it. So why even focus on it? Why cut it out?
Welcome to what errata is for - when WOtC realize they goofed and need to clear up/cleanup the mistakes they made that weren’t caught in the proofreading. What we are saying is that spellwraught tattoos are effectively consumable items that function like the potions and scrolls that are ruled out of use by RAW we believe that the tattoos will be ( eventually) added to that list following discussions like this. In the mean time we are making that move at our own tables now. Similarly, there is nothing in RAW that goes into the detail of how infusions work and are different from enchantments. What I have described is my best read into RAI from the bits and pieces they have provided trying to see into their thinking as they wrote the mess we have. Adding tattoos to the other consumables makes most of it inconsequential.
Here are a couple of other questions never answered in RAW that actually have possible impacts in game: 1) since your infusions involve tinkering with your equipment just how long does it take to put an infusion into something? Just how much tinkering can you do in the middle of combat in a 6 second round? 2 how long does it take for the magic to fade away when you switch ? When you die it takes stat bonus days for it to fade away, is it the same when you switch or is it instant or somewhere in between?
I would love to have RAW answers to these questions as well as to whether tattoos should be included in consumables and if not at what stage in the process of needle-tattoo-spell effect the infusion ends.
"Permanent" isn't a tag that appears on items and as such is basically fluff. A consumable item is also permanent insomuch as the magic will stay in the item permanently unless used.
I suppose you're technically correct in the first sentence. Then again, why even bother with the word "permanent" if it allegedly doesn't mean anything in this context? The DMG makes use of words like "consumable" and "permanent" when referring to magic items as early as page 37. And again on page 135. So the words do mean something, even if it's not a tag.
Welcome to what errata is for - when WOtC realize they goofed and need to clear up/cleanup the mistakes they made that weren’t caught in the proofreading. What we are saying is that spellwraught tattoos are effectively consumable items that function like the potions and scrolls that are ruled out of use by RAW we believe that the tattoos will be ( eventually) added to that list following discussions like this. In the mean time we are making that move at our own tables now. Similarly, there is nothing in RAW that goes into the detail of how infusions work and are different from enchantments. What I have described is my best read into RAI from the bits and pieces they have provided trying to see into their thinking as they wrote the mess we have. Adding tattoos to the other consumables makes most of it inconsequential.
Here are a couple of other questions never answered in RAW that actually have possible impacts in game: 1) since your infusions involve tinkering with your equipment just how long does it take to put an infusion into something? Just how much tinkering can you do in the middle of combat in a 6 second round? 2 how long does it take for the magic to fade away when you switch ? When you die it takes stat bonus days for it to fade away, is it the same when you switch or is it instant or somewhere in between?
I would love to have RAW answers to these questions as well as to whether tattoos should be included in consumables and if not at what stage in the process of needle-tattoo-spell effect the infusion ends.
1) You can't infuse that quickly and given infusions can only be done during a long rest time period, then within a 2 hr time period. Some form of concentration is required to complete the process. As in an 8hr long rest, you only really sleep for 6hrs. With the follow up question is, how is the Artificer able to infuse more objects when he raises in the ranks, chalk it up to honing the skill to be is faster.
2) Switch? Switch infusions? Its instant, it states that in the sheets.
Actually it doesn’t say it’s instant, it does say the new one replaces the old one but it doesn’t specify speed or time. Since it’s happening Right after a long rest and before combat (hopefully) I suppose the time doesn’t really matter. As for switching yes think low level armorer: 2 infusions available one goes into your armor, the other yesterday you put into your bow since you were outside, now your going into the “dungeon” and it’s going to be close quarters so you want to switch out repEating shot on your bow and place enhanced weapon on your sword. How long does the switch take and what happens if your attacked while it’s happening? (Yes I like gritty realism).
You can infuse more than one nonmagical object at the end of a long rest; the maximum number of objects appears in the Infused Items column of the Artificer table. You must touch each of the objects, and each of your infusions can be in only one object at a time. Moreover, no object can bear more than one of your infusions at a time. If you try to exceed your maximum number of infusions, the oldest infusion immediately ends, and then the new infusion applies.
The bold answers how quickly it goes away, which is instant. Whether it is a switch or you trying to infuse more with what you already have, the infusion ends instantly. The second part is not that important, because you can simply re-infuse all objects again on a long rest.
You can't switch infusions outside of a long rest. So it takes 2 hours and then 6 hours of sleep to do this process. There is no way to read what is written to take it as you can possibly do it any other way. Short of the DM allowing you to, you can never just go from the jungle into a cave and just touch your bow to remove Repeating Shot and then touch your sword and put on Enhanced Weapon. Whatever you start the day with as infusions, is what you get for that day and I say it this way, because even though you can take multiple long rests, you only benefit from a long rest once every 24 hours. So you can't, end of day, begin a long rest, mess up on infusions, ask for another long rest when you wake up and change them again.
You can't switch infusions outside of a long rest. So it takes 2 hours and then 6 hours of sleep to do this process. There is no way to read what is written to take it as you can possibly do it any other way. Short of the DM allowing you to, you can never just go from the jungle into a cave and just touch your bow to remove Repeating Shot and then touch your sword and put on Enhanced Weapon. Whatever you start the day with as infusions, is what you get for that day and I say it this way, because even though you can take multiple long rests, you only benefit from a long rest once every 24 hours. So you can't, end of day, begin a long rest, mess up on infusions, ask for another long rest when you wake up and change them again.
which is all the more reason not to be messing with trying to make lots of tattoos of find familiar. With your 2 or 3 active infusions all you have space for is your armor and one or both weapons so you are as prepared as can be..
Going back to the original question in the thread title personally I would limit the cantrips and L1 spells to those you know or have access to thru some other means (scrolls, cantrip books, ritual spellbook, MC, etc.
If I'm not mistaken I dont think it would work with the Find Familiar spell the way people think. Because the tattoo doesnt disappear until the spell ends, the infusion wont disappear until the familiar dies, so they wont be able to make more than one Spellwrought Tattoo at a time.
If I'm not mistaken I dont think it would work with the Find Familiar spell the way people think. Because the tattoo doesnt disappear until the spell ends, the infusion wont disappear until the familiar dies, so they wont be able to make more than one Spellwrought Tattoo at a time.
The duration of Find Familiar is Instantaneous, which means the spell is over as soon as it's done casting. The effect stays around indefinitely, but is not sustained by the spell like a spell with Concentration or a timed duration.
Can you use dispel magic on the creations of a spell like animate dead or affect those creations with antimagic field?
Whenever you wonder whether a spell’s effects can be dispelled or suspended, you need to answer one question: is the spell’s duration instantaneous? If the answer is yes, there is nothing to dispel or suspend. Here’s why: the effects of an instantaneous spell are brought into being by magic, but the effects aren’t sustained by magic. The magic flares for a split second and then vanishes. For example, the instantaneous spell animate dead harnesses magical energy to turn a corpse or a pile of bones into an undead creature. That necromantic magic is present for an instant and is then gone. The resulting undead now exists without the magic’s help. Casting dispel magic on the creature can’t end its mockery of life, and the undead can wander into an antimagic field with no adverse effect.
Another example: cure wounds instantaneously restores hit points to a creature. Because the spell’s duration is instantaneous, the restoration can’t be later dispelled. And you don’t suddenly lose hit points if you step into an antimagic field !
Going back to the original question in the thread title personally I would limit the cantrips and L1 spells to those you know or have access to thru some other means (scrolls, cantrip books, ritual spellbook, MC, etc.
That sounds good. I'd limit infusions to non-consumable items which seems to fit the direction that the Eberron authors seem to have been going in.
I would limit the infusions to the lists in the books until an errata or update came to avoid the “complications”we discussed in the previous pages here. While it’s possible to describe a process where infusions can be used to make consumables without it becoming ripe for abuse it’s easier and safer to just rule all consumables out.
I think it’s a creative use of infusions, and would not only allow, but encourage its use that way. Also, familiars are really fun and people love having them. Just a few weeks ago a new player in my campaign decided that they wanted to play an artificer, and as the DM I literally recommended them to abuse this infusion for a free familiar and helped them pick a familiar. I don’t think it breaks the game all that much, and always thought that find familiar was too restrictive in it’s wizard only availability anyways
I wouldn't worry about chain casting find familiar. Day 1 you cast find familiar. Day 2 your familiar casts find familiar and so on. After a couple weeks you have a flock of 14 chained familiars. Owls, lets say. Everywhere you go you are accompanied by 14 owls. I hope you weren't trying to sneak anywhere with your familiar, because while owls are pretty stealthy with 14 of them one is bound to fail it's stealth check. Each owl can communicate with it's own familiar telepathically, but with Int 3 they are not going to be relaying any complex orders down through your game of owl telephone.
What happens if Owl4 dies? Your link to Owls5-14 is broken. They have no reason to follow you anymore. Do they just wander off? If you give Owl3 a new tattoo and they re-summon owl4 but owl5 is more than 100 feet away, owl4 has no way to contact owl5 and the rest of the flock. In order to re-establish the chain you'll need to spend another 10 days tattooing all the owls so they can be summoned to the new location. Eventually it's just too much bother to keep the chain up for the marginal benefit.
Inevitable result: your world is haunted by flocks of abandoned chained familiars. XD
"Permanent" isn't a tag that appears on items and as such is basically fluff. A consumable item is also permanent insomuch as the magic will stay in the item permanently unless used.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Nothing on the list is "broken" and is all 100% legal, as it clearly states you can replicate ANY COMMON magical item. The list is just to limit the Uncommon and Rare items you can replicate. A one time use lv 1 spell or cantrip isn't broken by any means. So what, you have a familiar, and? Part of DND is not only to make the journey fun for the players, but also the DM. So what, your players are wanting to go and sell a tattoo for 10g a pop, let them. After the 2nd time, make it harder to do so. Ex, other tattoo shop hires thugs to beat the crap out of the team. Ex. word gets around that even though your tattoos are good deals, last person got sick. Ex. let them do it a million times, then let them wake up one day and be told it was all stolen and there are absolutely no clues to be able to locate it. Teaching them to stop wasting damn time.
I mean part of the DM's job is to push the group along in the end. Simply cutting out a 100% legally written rule for a class, depending on how you do it matters most, but overall, it is just overly controlling. What other legally written rules will be cut?
What's most amazing to me is that so many people think everyone would take this. It's a one time use ability that can only recharge after a long rest. It is not exactly game changing or even practical to use. Sure, if you had a massive amount of downtime, then yea, make a little side money, but in general, no one would ever take it. So why even focus on it? Why cut it out?
Welcome to what errata is for - when WOtC realize they goofed and need to clear up/cleanup the mistakes they made that weren’t caught in the proofreading. What we are saying is that spellwraught tattoos are effectively consumable items that function like the potions and scrolls that are ruled out of use by RAW we believe that the tattoos will be ( eventually) added to that list following discussions like this. In the mean time we are making that move at our own tables now. Similarly, there is nothing in RAW that goes into the detail of how infusions work and are different from enchantments. What I have described is my best read into RAI from the bits and pieces they have provided trying to see into their thinking as they wrote the mess we have. Adding tattoos to the other consumables makes most of it inconsequential.
Here are a couple of other questions never answered in RAW that actually have possible impacts in game:
1) since your infusions involve tinkering with your equipment just how long does it take to put an infusion into something? Just how much tinkering can you do in the middle of combat in a 6 second round?
2 how long does it take for the magic to fade away when you switch ? When you die it takes stat bonus days for it to fade away, is it the same when you switch or is it instant or somewhere in between?
I would love to have RAW answers to these questions as well as to whether tattoos should be included in consumables and if not at what stage in the process of needle-tattoo-spell effect the infusion ends.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I suppose you're technically correct in the first sentence. Then again, why even bother with the word "permanent" if it allegedly doesn't mean anything in this context? The DMG makes use of words like "consumable" and "permanent" when referring to magic items as early as page 37. And again on page 135. So the words do mean something, even if it's not a tag.
1) You can't infuse that quickly and given infusions can only be done during a long rest time period, then within a 2 hr time period. Some form of concentration is required to complete the process. As in an 8hr long rest, you only really sleep for 6hrs. With the follow up question is, how is the Artificer able to infuse more objects when he raises in the ranks, chalk it up to honing the skill to be is faster.
2) Switch? Switch infusions? Its instant, it states that in the sheets.
Actually it doesn’t say it’s instant, it does say the new one replaces the old one but it doesn’t specify speed or time. Since it’s happening Right after a long rest and before combat (hopefully) I suppose the time doesn’t really matter. As for switching yes think low level armorer: 2 infusions available one goes into your armor, the other yesterday you put into your bow since you were outside, now your going into the “dungeon” and it’s going to be close quarters so you want to switch out repEating shot on your bow and place enhanced weapon on your sword. How long does the switch take and what happens if your attacked while it’s happening? (Yes I like gritty realism).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You can infuse more than one nonmagical object at the end of a long rest; the maximum number of objects appears in the Infused Items column of the Artificer table. You must touch each of the objects, and each of your infusions can be in only one object at a time. Moreover, no object can bear more than one of your infusions at a time. If you try to exceed your maximum number of infusions, the oldest infusion immediately ends, and then the new infusion applies.
The bold answers how quickly it goes away, which is instant. Whether it is a switch or you trying to infuse more with what you already have, the infusion ends instantly. The second part is not that important, because you can simply re-infuse all objects again on a long rest.
You can't switch infusions outside of a long rest. So it takes 2 hours and then 6 hours of sleep to do this process. There is no way to read what is written to take it as you can possibly do it any other way. Short of the DM allowing you to, you can never just go from the jungle into a cave and just touch your bow to remove Repeating Shot and then touch your sword and put on Enhanced Weapon. Whatever you start the day with as infusions, is what you get for that day and I say it this way, because even though you can take multiple long rests, you only benefit from a long rest once every 24 hours. So you can't, end of day, begin a long rest, mess up on infusions, ask for another long rest when you wake up and change them again.
which is all the more reason not to be messing with trying to make lots of tattoos of find familiar. With your 2 or 3 active infusions all you have space for is your armor and one or both weapons so you are as prepared as can be..
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Going back to the original question in the thread title personally I would limit the cantrips and L1 spells to those you know or have access to thru some other means (scrolls, cantrip books, ritual spellbook, MC, etc.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If I'm not mistaken I dont think it would work with the Find Familiar spell the way people think. Because the tattoo doesnt disappear until the spell ends, the infusion wont disappear until the familiar dies, so they wont be able to make more than one Spellwrought Tattoo at a time.
The duration of Find Familiar is Instantaneous, which means the spell is over as soon as it's done casting. The effect stays around indefinitely, but is not sustained by the spell like a spell with Concentration or a timed duration.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
That sounds good.
I'd limit infusions to non-consumable items which seems to fit the direction that the Eberron authors seem to have been going in.
So no Veteran's Cane, Perfume of Bewitching, Bead of Nourishment, or Pot of Awakening?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I would limit the infusions to the lists in the books until an errata or update came to avoid the “complications”we discussed in the previous pages here. While it’s possible to describe a process where infusions can be used to make consumables without it becoming ripe for abuse it’s easier and safer to just rule all consumables out.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think it’s a creative use of infusions, and would not only allow, but encourage its use that way. Also, familiars are really fun and people love having them. Just a few weeks ago a new player in my campaign decided that they wanted to play an artificer, and as the DM I literally recommended them to abuse this infusion for a free familiar and helped them pick a familiar. I don’t think it breaks the game all that much, and always thought that find familiar was too restrictive in it’s wizard only availability anyways
To each their own.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I appreciate that. I didnt realize that part of it.
theoretically if the dm rules you can do this you can solve world depression at level 2 (everyone gets kitten yay)
I like character creation!
I wouldn't worry about chain casting find familiar. Day 1 you cast find familiar. Day 2 your familiar casts find familiar and so on. After a couple weeks you have a flock of 14 chained familiars. Owls, lets say. Everywhere you go you are accompanied by 14 owls. I hope you weren't trying to sneak anywhere with your familiar, because while owls are pretty stealthy with 14 of them one is bound to fail it's stealth check. Each owl can communicate with it's own familiar telepathically, but with Int 3 they are not going to be relaying any complex orders down through your game of owl telephone.
What happens if Owl4 dies? Your link to Owls5-14 is broken. They have no reason to follow you anymore. Do they just wander off? If you give Owl3 a new tattoo and they re-summon owl4 but owl5 is more than 100 feet away, owl4 has no way to contact owl5 and the rest of the flock. In order to re-establish the chain you'll need to spend another 10 days tattooing all the owls so they can be summoned to the new location. Eventually it's just too much bother to keep the chain up for the marginal benefit.
Inevitable result: your world is haunted by flocks of abandoned chained familiars. XD
Oh that wasn't what I was worried about. I'm pretty skeptical of familiars' capacity to attune to items as it is.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!