you will not necessarily be 8 levels behind for ASI's just because you take Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster. you actually don't have the same demand on your ASI's as some of the other classes. I'm not sure if your working on the idea that you absolutely have to max out your Intelligence as fast as possible but this is not necessarily true. Also since the Artillerist is long range they can potentially sacrifice Con a bit more or Look for an item like the Amulet of Health (or even create one once you reach level 14) if you so wish.
As I said this opens up ASI's quite a bit more. Assuming that you pick a race with even just a +1 in Intelligence and standard array to get just a 16 Intelligence to start will at most you need 2 ASI's to max out your Intelligence, which does not have to be in your first two ASI's if you have reason to hold them off or are not having major issues with your spells missing or saves being made regularly. Meaning that if you want to you can actually take both of those Feats at Level 4 and 8 and not actually be significantly behind the way you portray it. And if you do something like Variant human You can accomplish this same basic requirement and still get one of these two or another one of the Feats that you mentioned well before level 8 anyway. Mobile while useful for many characters is also not a high priority pick for most ranged characters like the Artillerist either and is more a matter of personal choice over valuable need to take it because they will not often be using most of it's features if things go well for them.
high Elf is a bit different situation because it does give you a Cantrip but the Cantrip is a wizard spell so it's not going to work with your Arcane Firearm feature. So it gives and it takes away all in one fell swoop as far as the Cantrip is concerned and thus becomes best to pick up purely a support cantrip where arcane Firearm wouldn't apply anyway. however what it does do is actually bring other racial features to the equation that may or may not be something you can replicate in other ways. Which is the case of other races. It's +1 intelligence is perhaps more useful than the Cantrip in some ways. And it's dex is useful for your AC.
Gnomes are actually strong in the situation that we're talking about because if they take even one of the Half ASI feats that can be very useful at level 4. Such as Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, Observant, telekinetic, or even the Gnome specific Feat Fade Away you actually end up with an 18 Intelligence by level 4 thanks to their +2 Intelligence racial bonus. Meaning that you only actually need one +2 ASI to max out their intelligence and you've still picked up a useful feat as well.
Finally. That Spell Slot is only huge when that's all you can see. When you have other things that can make up for that spell slot. Specially at earlier levels. The Weight of that Spell slot is actually a lot less powerful. This is the case with the Artillerist in particular and the Artificer in some respects in general. They have a lot of ways to make up for that lost spell slot and actually outdo the single extra round of power that spell slot is going to give. Now that spell slot might be capable of more for a single turn, but what your getting in return with this class and subclass actually makes up for it in many respects building up to the point where you use that one spell slot. Your falling into a trap of overslimpifying things and considering the potential for one big effect to actually be always better than a fairly continuous smaller effect that may actually do more over time.
Artillerists also are not restricted by spell slots more than any other full Caster. Because your ignoring the Warlock who actually supplements the existence of almost all of their spell slots with various powers that give them individual casts of various spells through various class features and Invocations. Otherwise they are restricted to 2 spell slots total clear up until level 10. The level after the Artillerist would be picking up 2 3rd level spell slots as well as 2 free known spells for that level.
I feel like you’re talking in circles. If you pick 2 Feats, that’s 8 levels worth of ASIs. Those ASIs could be straight ability score boosts, or they could be other feats. Regardless, by taking Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster, you’re pushing other benefits back 4 levels each, whereas a single level dip only pushes those benefits back one level. Whatever specific choices you make don’t change that.
And I disagree that saying more spell slots is a benefit is oversimplifying things. The Artillerist’s abilities make those spell slots even better for them, not worse. With more slots they can make more use of their cannons and firearm, as well as defense and support spells that low level Artillerists don’t usually have the resources for.
Good point about the Warlock, though people do tend to multiclass them a lot too. And, I’ve seen people get frustrated with their limited spell slots.
You are not necessarily pushing other benefits back 4 levels each. Because those benefits may not actually matter until 4 levels later in the first place. You can always do the other way around and take those benefits first and the feats later if you want to as well. Your trying to make the fact that your actually delaying them with that level as sounding better than it actually is because those ASI's and the benefits from them are only set back by actually delaying the levels that you get them. What you choose to do with those Benefits does not actually set them back. And in some cases there are alternate ways to take them or to take them even earlier.
But you don't want it looked at in that way because it makes the true delay of that level look worse. Because Here's the kicker. Taking that extra level to get them. Applies to those 4 levels and 8 levels your trying to claim taking the feats sets things back as well by doing your single level in a different class method. Because your still delaying the benefits of the ASi's and the ones you choose to take are still going to Delay the others that you want to take as you put it. Your just trying to make the delay seem less than it is by going "Look I handed you more stuff up front so you don't notice I'm pushing everything else back by doing it this way." You may gain a single spell slot a bit earlier. And may be able to move that up slightly but your actually delaying a bunch of spell slots to a later level as well. So it looks nice saying "You have an extra spell slot here." And down play that "Your not getting this spell or these spell slots here until you reach this point" and then saying it all looks good because you got something a bit earlier.
As for Frustrations with the Warlock, and to some extent the Sorcerer, and many half casters. Many people expect these things to play like a wizard so they get frustrated that they aren't getting a different flavor of wizard. Even if they aren't voicing it in that way. Even your fix here is an attempt in it's own way to Make the Aritificer 'More Wizard' by adding Wizard into it. This is something these classes are always going to deal with. But it's going to happen even more every time somebody claims they can fix it by front loading a bit of stuff so it becomes the expectation once more. Sorcerer's and Warlock's both in particular have been wizards Lesser little brothers for quite a while now because they aren't quite as good as Wizarding as Wizards instead of trying to build up and branch out their unique flavors a bit more. The same thing came up I noticed because of the Order of the Scribes second level power is/was getting seen as somehow over powered because people were trying to game it. But somehow the sorcerer class as a whole getting an option to do that same thing with way less restrictions but slighty less damage choices in a very sorcerer way simply couldn't be as good.
But let's get back on topic. Let's talk about those canons. Let's talk about Just what usefulness they can get into because of a single spell slot with those things. Just starting at level 3 and the beginning of the Artillerist. These Canon's last an hour, which honestly feels slightly lackluster to me because many other base subclass features last a lot longer than them if not indefinitely, but the first casting doesn't even take a spell slot. You basically get to conjure up these machinations for free 1 time. That's better than what many wizards and Sorcerer's can do, Only warlocks get many things that they can do without taking a spell slot 1 time. And it's still an hour to boot so when it comes to dungeon crawling. That may potentially be 2 or 3 fights. 4 if your delving into a place that's tightly packed with encounters. And should they go down or the time expire. You can bring them back out for a single level 1 spell slot. The downside of course being that Artificers are somewhat limited in spell slots, and this is going to hurt the most actually when you first get going with the artillerist so level 3 and 4. But thanks to your Eldritch Canon your basically casting a second Cantrip, in the same round your doing so with your action, as your bonus action without actually running into casting rules to do it for every turn you want to use your Bonus Action in that way and the Canon has something it can hit in it's range which comes down more to which canon you choose and where you choose to position it than anything else.
Level 5 this is actually eased up a bit and possibly more at level 6. This is because, similar to the warlock when picking certain invocations, level 5 for the Artificer is where on top of gaining Second level spell slots the Chosen Attack Cantrip of the Artillerist is going to become much more viable. The Cantrip is still going to be purely hit or miss and lacking partial damage But instead of gaining just one tier level of damage die at level 5. The Artillerist gets to do what no other caster gets to do at that level. They get to add most if not all or more of another tier level of damage to their cantrip (depending on which Artificer Cantrip you chose to use most). The Warlock only might compare with a rather EB focused build but if they are focused elsewhere you actually have the advantage over them, at the price that your damage is perhaps a little bit more variable than theirs. One Cantrip that I might suggest actually for the Artillerist that's actually fairly good to cast over and over in general is frostbite. It's a con save and cold damage with natural damage dice is only being d6's (so the d8 is slightly larger) but more importantly it causes disadvantage on one attack roll that the target takes before the end of it's next turn. This is great to be putting on many kinds of enemies. Ray of Frost could be a nice alternative for slowing things constantly making them a bit less mobile and thus less of a threat, or Acid Splash might be a potential for it's minor ability of potentially hitting 2 targets. Firebolt would get slightly less than a full tier of damage from the ability and be a highly resisted type of damage but it at least has the greater range
At level 6 they get a bit more of a break because their list of possible magic items to replicate grows. And some of those items are vastly overlooked but surprisingly powerful in the hands of a clever person. One of those items for example is the Lantern of Revealing. For a single pint of oil, Nothing is going to get within 30 feet of your Artificer while invisible and not get caught out by everybody for an entire 6 hours without the need for concentration. Rendering whole tactics used by many rogues and some other creatures fairly useless against you. Wand of Magic Detection is another that let's you cast that spell 3 times a day giving you a total of 30 minutes to be able to find magical aura's around without having to rely on ritual casting it or using up one of your valuable first level spell slots. And 3 castings tends to be a fairly useful amount unless you are in tightly packed and long running circumstances. Eyes of Charming while they might not match your DC let's you potentially carry around 3 charm person spells with you instead of trying to cast them with spell slots as another example. If your doubling as the Parties Rogue or Scout for some reason. They gain items to help with that as well which helps to bypass the need to cast certain kinds of buffs. And the biggest beauty of it all is that many of these items at this level still don't need attunement so they can be passed around the group or simply used to supplement your own spell casting.
So Yes Artificers are half Casters, and Yes Artillerists are the closest of these Half Casters to perhaps leaning towards Full Caster. But much like a Warlock, once you really give it's kit a chance, You'll find a lot of things that with a little clever play or a little clever planning can be quite powerful, and may even in some ways forgo that need to immediately have 20 intelligence that your claiming is being put off by as much as 8 levels. Or you might decide you really want to pair with that 20 intelligence as soon as possible and supplement out the support work and the like to other class abilities making those Feats something that you don't really take and factor in until much higher level if at all. But None of the ASI's are actually being Delayed by any actual amount by sticking to Purely the Artificer.
Fateless: if you pick Magic Initiate, you can’t pick a different feat or ASI. The other thing that you would have picked will be pushed back 4 levels. So, saying that Magic Initiate and Ritual caster are as good as one level of Wizard ignores the benefits that the multiclassed character would get in their place. It’s a trade off.
Stoutstein: it’s a shortcut to more spell slots & cantrips. I’ve been clear about the tradeoffs, and I went back & added clarifications & more detail where folks disagreed. I think we just have different perspectives on the term shortcut.
It's not pushed back 4 levels. The other thing you would have picked. Would be the other thing you would have picked. And if you valued it more. You'd have picked it and Magic Initiate or Ritualist or what ever else would be the Other Thing. It's literally that simple. You either pick it or you do not. There is no you pick it but it only becomes available 4 levels later. Now you have another choice in 4 levels and you might decide then to turn the thing that you did not pick the first time into your second choice. But that is still the Second Pick, not the first pick, and not the third pick, or the fourth pick.
Taking a level of Wizard has the cost of pushing back Artificer features. Taking two feats to get some of the benefits of a level of Wizard has the cost of not taking better feats or ASIs at those levels. Both are trade offs.
The only other info I can find is that WOTC has said that high level adventures are not in high demand. They didn't release any specific data showing how they know that though.
It actually started with the initial playtest surveys they took during the D&D NEXT phase, before 5e came out. From what I understand, they actually did some very scientifically rigorous research through multiple channels at this point, and afaik nothing has happened since then to change this initial assessment. I remember Mearls and company being rather surprised at the lack of people who played til high levels.
Taking a level of Wizard has the cost of pushing back Artificer features. Taking two feats to get some of the benefits of a level of Wizard has the cost of not taking better feats or ASIs at those levels. Both are trade offs.
What are your Better Feats? And if they are Better Feats is it necessarily even worth trying to get something like Magical Initiate(Artificer Initiate perhaps?) or Ritualist at all if they are. Also are they just generally better feats or are they better for what you personally want to do? These are all important questions that make your reasoning here somewhat intangible and undefined. For what your trying to accomplish with the one level of Wizard. Most if not all of it can be obtained with these feats. Making them highly useful for an alternate for a build that we are talking here. This means that other feats are not necessarily in fact Better for the purpose we are after in this case.
Since the Artificer in General does not actually have a lot of demand on their ASI's being SAD and with a handy ability to gain magic items to fill in holes in their builds more reliably than any other character that doesn't actually have a DM willing to work with players to hand out specific items. There is not the same Demand on their ASI's when they get them that even some other SAD based classes might possess. This makes Feats more Viable and customizing those Feats to your intent more valuable than ever before.
Ritualist is a feat that in a lot of ways is actually stronger than the base ability it is built after. Primarily because it has NO class restrictions like any natural Ritual Caster from their class actually has. This is why at one time it was occasionally considered a situational or personal taste pick even on classes that had the ability to ritually cast to begin with. It has often been considered a strong pick on any non ritual capable classes as a way to add more spell casting without the need for spell slots what so ever. Which makes it a good fit for the Artillerist on it's own because of that fact alone. So having something better either needs to fit the purpose of your build better to really say your somehow losing out on it to pick Ritualist to begin with.
The Point of Magical Initiate (or Artificer Initiate) is to gain more spells that you can use in general and broaden your list of usable spells at any given time. Now your advocating for a class level to primarily pick up 3 Cantrips in this regard. Magical Initiate doesn't require delaying any of your class benefits but at the cost of only learning two Cantrips and only being able to be gotten at certain levels. In the Case of Artificer Initiate it's one Cantrip and 1 first level spell to your readied spells list that you can also cast once without using a spell slot. Magical Initiate (without DM intervention) and the Class Level both have the same secondary problem. No matter what spells you pick with it they do not synergize fully with the Artillerists Subclass Features. This limits to what you would pick with them to either being utility, Mostly RP based flavor Cantrips that everybody considers must haves, or the rare attack cantrip that it's worth taking it's secondary ability for over any damage dealing the cantrip might if you want to take full advantage of what you pick (Mind Sliver only situationally fits this last one at best despite being current flavor of the month). All 3 options that we're discussing here have different amounts of trade off's to get done. But they are tradeoffs. So when your considering things like other Feats to take? This one probably has an easier time to justify different choices for Feats that might do different or similar things for you that might be deemed better choices overall even for the purpose we are trying to achieve. But that's primarily because of the tradeoffs for what it is that you gain exist in pretty much all of them. Something like say Fey Touched or Shadow Touched are Good Examples since you get a decently valuable 2nd level spell that you can cast once without bothering to use a spell slot as well as the ability to cast them again with a spell slot and they are both spells that don't have any contradictions with your class and subclass features and on top of that they both allow you to pick a first level spell of your choosing with the same abilities within certain schools of magic that you can actually potentially line up and synergize with your class and subclass features to take full advantage of them or pick spells that at least don't have interaction issues. And they still have the advantage of a stat boost on top of it if your needing that or valuing it as your top priority.
I'm aware of the reputation that Mobile is getting as a must have in most people's builds but a large part of it goes unused on ranged caster characters being primarily melee oriented in design. The movement based traits often go unused on Ranged characters either because they don't move as much. They have more time to get out of the way in the first place, or they often don't need to move nearly as far as a melee character does. The increase to movement speed is seen as some huge benefit but it doesn't help you in many of the situations where you'd want it most on many characters. That being of creatures managing to get in your face and the main reason they are going to get in your face is either an ambush or they are simply faster than you are meaning your ability to run away probably isn't superior to theirs even when enhanced. There are probably plenty of times where there are actually more impactful choices that you can make with your ASI choice even though mobile as a feat in general is not a bad one. But it is something to perhaps consider when the topic of "Better Feats" is going to be fully discussed in particular.
There’s no need to analyze specific feats to determine that taking one feat prevents you from taking a different feat or ASI.
By saying that I’m advocating for a multiclass primarily to pick up 3 cantrips, you’re either misunderstanding or misrepresenting my posts. I suggest re-reading the thread.
I've read it. I've read your analysis of individual levels and all of that. The Gains are not as great as they are claimed. They are front loaded. And the complaint that sparked the whole thing of taking the wizard level was sparked primarily over having to use the same very limited number of cantrips over and over again with a bit of a complaint about the spell slots the Artificer has that you don't exactly fix anyway. So yes. That makes the Cantrips the primary thing your gaining out of it. With Some ritual ability and possibly an extra spell slot that you may only be able to sometimes upcast into being kind of secondary.
As for Analyzing feats. There is a great need to Analyze feats to say which one is more worth taking for what your trying to accomplish. Trying to say it's pointless because you can't simply take them all... or even all at once is actually a backwards argument because only if you could do those things would Analyzing the Feats themselves have no value because you would get all such abilities regardless. However since we can't do those things we need some measure of capability of just what abilities we can add in might be more valuable and more beneficial to actually add to the characters as compared to the ones that we decide to leave out.
You’re undervaluing spell slots, and misrepresenting my posts. It doesn’t look like we will come to an agreement there.
And my argument is not that “it's pointless because you can't simply take them all.” I said that you don’t need to analyze feats to understand that taking one prevents you from taking a different one at that level. Taking a feat for cantrips means that you can’t take another feat or ASI for four levels. The player who takes one level of Wizard for cantrips (among other things) can also take a feat or ASI only one level later than normal. I don’t think I can make it any clearer, and I’m tired of arguing with you about it.
Representing a Choice as Prevention of other Choices is entirely making an argument of "I want to be able to take them all". You may want to frame it as something else but that's exactly what it is. If you choose a feat you more want for personal reasons than the best choice. That is your Choice. That is not some form of sinister prevention unless your trying to get everything. And Arguing against Analyzing your choices because you can't have all of them is exactly as I have stated again no matter how you want to frame it. Your purposely trying to create a negative view of the choice that is a choice no matter what simply because that Choice is different from your chosen choice and you are never giving any alternatives or why those choices might be more needed, better in general, or otherwise good personal picks. This is what keeps much of your very general argument against what I'm saying rather intangible and undefined. You actually refuse to define it and label the choice as something bad instead.
And Let me tell you something. I may point out these things are a possible and very viable alternative to this build. But I personally don't think that something like Ritual Caster is even necessarily needed in the first place. Even if it is a useful and Viable Alternative to actually delaying everything and temporarily preventing even the choice around ASI's by taking a level in another class since ASI's are not tied to character level but the actual classes.
I see a lot of value in the various class features. I also understand the value of Spell slots. I've had to represent the effect of basically getting extra slots from the casting of a spell or another featue many times. I've had to do it even with pure caster classes like the Wizard and the Cleric Who in large part revolve around their spell slots for class Functionality. But I also Understand Full Casters that have a lot to offer other than spell Slots such as the Sorcerer, Or more in particular the Warlock who relies heavily on other features over Pure Spell Slots for much of their Casting. Which is why I can see a lot of use for the Artificer. So I'm not misrepresenting your posts when I can recognize your whole basis came largely out of a complaint that Artificer started with too few Cantrips and that they would rely heavily on Cantrips as their most common means of attack. When if you look at their spell list and their actuality this is not only True of the Caster leaning Artillerist but actually all Artificers, partly because they are not actually full casters no matter how hard you try to force any of them to be, And partly because their attack spells are very few and very far between. So even if you have the spell slots your just going to be dealing with the logistics of either making those few attack spells work over and over again or your going to be using those spell slots primarily for what the Artificer is good at which is support (which doesn't necessarily need cast every single round) and falling back on using cantrips and your class features for the bulk of what you do in combat. This in short changes the value of a single spell slot quite a bit, even one you can upcast into, much like it does when it comes to additional Spell Slots on the Warlock and pro's and con's of such things there when only added in minority.
Fateless: it seems like you are more interested in creating an argument than discussing the topic at hand. I’ve made my points and I clarified them several times for you. Feel free to build your character however you please.
The only other info I can find is that WOTC has said that high level adventures are not in high demand. They didn't release any specific data showing how they know that though.
It actually started with the initial playtest surveys they took during the D&D NEXT phase, before 5e came out. From what I understand, they actually did some very scientifically rigorous research through multiple channels at this point, and afaik nothing has happened since then to change this initial assessment. I remember Mearls and company being rather surprised at the lack of people who played til high levels.
Fateless, what Patrick is talking about is opportunity costs. It's the idea that whenever you are presented with a choice of options and can only pick one, the "cost" of that choice is losing the opportunity to do any of the other things you could've used that opportunity to do.
Your argument, provided I've understood it correctly, is that taking multiple feats to mimic having taken a level in Wizard (i.e. Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster) is better than taking the wizard level because you dislike multiclassing and don't want to delay artificer progression. Patrick's argument is simply that the opportunity costs of taking those feats is not being able to do other things you could do at those ASI levels, such as boost Intelligence or acquire other feats you like better, and that a single level of wizard offers most of the benefits of those multiple feats as well as better spell slot progression without losing the opportunity to do something cool with one's ASIs. One gets those ASIs one level later, delays artificer progression, and if your campaign goes to very high levels you lose your obscenely powerful artificer capstone, but for a majority of levels earlier in that character's career, the single wizard level offers considerable benefit.
The opportunity cost of the wizard level is relatively low compared to other ways of obtaining the same results, for the majority of the character's career. That's the point Patrick was making, and it's a solid one. For the most part, I concur - a single level of wizard is a huge help and drastically improves the artificer's versatility in all tiers of play. Artillerists looking to burn a lot of spell slots on cannons, or alchemists looking to actually use their shitty Wild Chemistry feature, further benefit from the enhanced slot progression.
Fateless, what Patrick is talking about is opportunity costs. It's the idea that whenever you are presented with a choice of options and can only pick one, the "cost" of that choice is losing the opportunity to do any of the other things you could've used that opportunity to do.
Your argument, provided I've understood it correctly, is that taking multiple feats to mimic having taken a level in Wizard (i.e. Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster) is better than taking the wizard level because you dislike multiclassing and don't want to delay artificer progression. Patrick's argument is simply that the opportunity costs of taking those feats is not being able to do other things you could do at those ASI levels, such as boost Intelligence or acquire other feats you like better, and that a single level of wizard offers most of the benefits of those multiple feats as well as better spell slot progression without losing the opportunity to do something cool with one's ASIs. One gets those ASIs one level later, delays artificer progression, and if your campaign goes to very high levels you lose your obscenely powerful artificer capstone, but for a majority of levels earlier in that character's career, the single wizard level offers considerable benefit.
The opportunity cost of the wizard level is relatively low compared to other ways of obtaining the same results, for the majority of the character's career. That's the point Patrick was making, and it's a solid one. For the most part, I concur - a single level of wizard is a huge help and drastically improves the artificer's versatility in all tiers of play. Artillerists looking to burn a lot of spell slots on cannons, or alchemists looking to actually use their shitty Wild Chemistry feature, further benefit from the enhanced slot progression.
i never said better. Some of you may assume better but I never said it. What I said is that it's a viable and equal possibility to do instead. There are reasons based upon the class to keep your progression of abilities continueing as much as possible rather than delaying them. Which means that simply grabbing another level of something else isn't automatically a low cost decision. When your continued abilities and advances in what you are doing primarily rely on those advancements every level. Choosing to delay those progressions is actually fairly costly unlike in other classes where things may be gained only sporadically. So no. It is not some low cost basically free choice to make. Specially when there are other viable ways to make it.
And Opportunity costs. Are still not necessarily a prevention. Opportunity costs as as I stated a Matter of evaluating and balancing out the choice that works best for you. If a choice in an opportunity cost situation is not as good. you can show it as not as good and thus it's not actually a prevented choice, It's a non-prefered choice with low opportunity comparitively. I've also pointed out how the spell slot progression issue can easily be overcome in other ways. Spell slot progression loses value when the only thing you can do with those spell slots is upcast into them. Specially when your choices to upcast into them may or may not actually have the ability to take advantage of that upcasting or even when it does you might not actually be able to use it's upcasted bonus which means your actually burning higher level spell slots for no actual gain. This is low value and to be avoided if you can help it. Sometimes the way to avoid that is to simply not go for those spell slots early and pick up something else that is going to serve you better instead. And all of that is ignoring the fact that if this alternative that I put forth is such a high cost he should easily be able to point at various things that are more important and much more viable to take than a couple of Feats that mimic the abilities of other classes which is his primary point for taking the level in that class to begin with. I asked more than once for other options to be shown that would put more value on the class level. None have ever been provided except in a general offhanded manner.
Also if your burning a lot of spell slots on Cannons. Your doing something wrong more than likely. That's a waste of resources given their general durations and capabilities.
If I'm understanding that particular post correctly...
You're asking what's "better" than taking Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster to be a fake wizard rather than taking a single wizard level?
if so: boosting Intelligence. Artificers are very SAD, which is a strength of the class, but the downside of that is that artificers are incredibly dependent on getting the highest possible Intelligence they can as quickly as possible. Their extremely powerful Flash of Genius feature double-dips on Int - you get more uses with higher Intelligence and each use is more impactful. An artificer with 16 Intelligence gets three Flashes at +3 each, for a total of +9 to checks/saves per rest; the same artificer with 20 Intelligence gets five uses of +5 each, for a total of +25 to checks/saves per rest. That's nearly triple the value of the feature, to say nothing of how a +5 to a check/save is significantly more likely to fix it than a +3 is.
Artificers cast with Intelligence. Half of them attack with Intelligence, too. Intelligence drives their Magical Tinkering feature, and Intelligence is twice as important for determining their number of available spells as it is for a full-caster class. More than any other class in the game, artificers require high marks in their key attribute to be at all functional. Delaying any possible boost to their Intelligence until level freaking twelve is an absolute nonstarter when one single level of wizard gives you a far greater boost to your spells than Magic Initiate can, access to most of what you'd want Ritual Caster for at first level alone, improves your spell slots, grants you Arcane Recovery to get back a cannon on short rest, all while still allowing you to improve your Intelligence at a reasonable rate.
The choice is not "take a level of Wizard or take 2+ feats to get some of the things a level of Wizard would get you while being bad at being an artificer", it's "take a level of wizard, or choose to focus on artificer things and don't bother with ritual spells, cantrips, or any of that wizard shit." If you don't believe the value of that wizard level to be worth slowed artificer progression, then don't take it. But I'm not sure why castigating Patrick over and over for suggesting that it's a good option for people who do value that versatility is warranted?
They aren't actually pushed to get that Intelligence higher than other classes. Wizards have several functions that work off of their intelligence as well. The reality is that in 5e the balance is actually lower and while yes that additional +2 can help over a +3 it's not necessarily as ground shaking in it's numerical advantage as your making it out to be.
Flash of Genius is also gotten first at level 7. This means it's only going to see moderate use at best before level 8 (The First ASI after it is gotten where a boost in intelligence could potentially be taken). It also has some pretty decent restrictions in it's usage such as a 30' limit and requiring your reaction to be able to use so it's not necessarily always going to be available when it would actually be useful. Nor is it necessarily useful for groups so while it might save one person or make 1 attempt at a skill more likely to succeed it does not necessarily mean it's going to overwhelming help on many more checks even with 5 uses over 3 uses between each long rest.
You can argue that the DC of the spells is important and to some degree it is. But those with a lot of experience with wizards and even clerics can tell you that maxing it out is not always necessary until you get into Tier 3 (levels 10 to 15, important because level 12 falls in this range) if not Tier 4. Specially if your spells tend to focus much more on the utilitarian in the way that the Artificer's spell progression does because many of those spells require neither attack rolls nor saves to be made so you can go longer before you actually gain an increase in the stat. Particularly if your starting out in the 16 to 18 range initially on the stat. There are also several magical items you can end up picking up to actually shore up these particular numbers. Some of which are potential candidates for your infusions. And even if you can't find one to suit your taste I know for a fact that the Artificer can make the headband of Intellect by level 10. Meaning that you can simulate one of those ASI's before you ever get to level 12. And ARtificer's get a nice middle ground between Wizards and Sorcerer's with their spells. They can choose to change their known spells list at any time, not just when they level, So even with a smaller list available at any one time they have potential access overall to more than the Sorcerer. But they are not required to keep a compendium with them like the Wizard is to do so, Requiring simply a certain amount of time based upon that spell list after each long rest. This can overcome the issue in difference of just one or two spells gained by the intelligence increase (which is literally all it is) in a way that is much more useful and on demand than it is for the Sorcerer.
So no it's not simply a choice of "Take a level of Wizard and delay everything Artificer" or "Choose to only do artificer things and focus only on Artificer to the exclusion of everything else". The Artificer has a lot of options for dealing with these kinds of things and more reliably than those other classes do that you say don't require them nearly as much. Some of them come early in their career and some come at the midway point but very few of them are stuck waiting until truly late in their career to be available. This means they have a lot of grey area and potentially viable alternatives and through adventure they might even find things that solve some of these issues for them which then frees them up to do something we haven't even discussed.
I admit, Fateless. I'm not sure what your argument is anymore?
From what I can gather, you seem to be protesting the idea of Wizard levels entirely - the best conclusion I can draw from what you're saying is that you don't think a level in wizard is ever a good idea and you want people to avoid doing it. I'm...not sure why? The benefits are pretty plain to see, as are the opportunity costs of availing oneself of those benefits. What am I not seeing, here?
I'm not protesting the idea entirely. I'm protesting the idea that it's the ONLY possible and viable solution. While you and Patrick are rather adamant that it's the ONLY possible solution. I've said many times there are other alternatives and ways to do things in my posts but it has gotten heavily ignored only for the way of adding Wizard as portrayed as the only possible solution and argued against from that standpoint repeatedly. I keep getting told my alternative is wrong or taking things away while having the idea of Wizard being used as having no real drawbacks instead of any acceptance that both solutions are viable and it's up to the person making the build and they both have advantages and drawbacks.
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you will not necessarily be 8 levels behind for ASI's just because you take Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster. you actually don't have the same demand on your ASI's as some of the other classes. I'm not sure if your working on the idea that you absolutely have to max out your Intelligence as fast as possible but this is not necessarily true. Also since the Artillerist is long range they can potentially sacrifice Con a bit more or Look for an item like the Amulet of Health (or even create one once you reach level 14) if you so wish.
As I said this opens up ASI's quite a bit more. Assuming that you pick a race with even just a +1 in Intelligence and standard array to get just a 16 Intelligence to start will at most you need 2 ASI's to max out your Intelligence, which does not have to be in your first two ASI's if you have reason to hold them off or are not having major issues with your spells missing or saves being made regularly. Meaning that if you want to you can actually take both of those Feats at Level 4 and 8 and not actually be significantly behind the way you portray it. And if you do something like Variant human You can accomplish this same basic requirement and still get one of these two or another one of the Feats that you mentioned well before level 8 anyway. Mobile while useful for many characters is also not a high priority pick for most ranged characters like the Artillerist either and is more a matter of personal choice over valuable need to take it because they will not often be using most of it's features if things go well for them.
high Elf is a bit different situation because it does give you a Cantrip but the Cantrip is a wizard spell so it's not going to work with your Arcane Firearm feature. So it gives and it takes away all in one fell swoop as far as the Cantrip is concerned and thus becomes best to pick up purely a support cantrip where arcane Firearm wouldn't apply anyway. however what it does do is actually bring other racial features to the equation that may or may not be something you can replicate in other ways. Which is the case of other races. It's +1 intelligence is perhaps more useful than the Cantrip in some ways. And it's dex is useful for your AC.
Gnomes are actually strong in the situation that we're talking about because if they take even one of the Half ASI feats that can be very useful at level 4. Such as Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, Observant, telekinetic, or even the Gnome specific Feat Fade Away you actually end up with an 18 Intelligence by level 4 thanks to their +2 Intelligence racial bonus. Meaning that you only actually need one +2 ASI to max out their intelligence and you've still picked up a useful feat as well.
Finally. That Spell Slot is only huge when that's all you can see. When you have other things that can make up for that spell slot. Specially at earlier levels. The Weight of that Spell slot is actually a lot less powerful. This is the case with the Artillerist in particular and the Artificer in some respects in general. They have a lot of ways to make up for that lost spell slot and actually outdo the single extra round of power that spell slot is going to give. Now that spell slot might be capable of more for a single turn, but what your getting in return with this class and subclass actually makes up for it in many respects building up to the point where you use that one spell slot. Your falling into a trap of overslimpifying things and considering the potential for one big effect to actually be always better than a fairly continuous smaller effect that may actually do more over time.
Artillerists also are not restricted by spell slots more than any other full Caster. Because your ignoring the Warlock who actually supplements the existence of almost all of their spell slots with various powers that give them individual casts of various spells through various class features and Invocations. Otherwise they are restricted to 2 spell slots total clear up until level 10. The level after the Artillerist would be picking up 2 3rd level spell slots as well as 2 free known spells for that level.
I feel like you’re talking in circles. If you pick 2 Feats, that’s 8 levels worth of ASIs. Those ASIs could be straight ability score boosts, or they could be other feats. Regardless, by taking Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster, you’re pushing other benefits back 4 levels each, whereas a single level dip only pushes those benefits back one level. Whatever specific choices you make don’t change that.
And I disagree that saying more spell slots is a benefit is oversimplifying things. The Artillerist’s abilities make those spell slots even better for them, not worse. With more slots they can make more use of their cannons and firearm, as well as defense and support spells that low level Artillerists don’t usually have the resources for.
Good point about the Warlock, though people do tend to multiclass them a lot too. And, I’ve seen people get frustrated with their limited spell slots.
You are not necessarily pushing other benefits back 4 levels each. Because those benefits may not actually matter until 4 levels later in the first place. You can always do the other way around and take those benefits first and the feats later if you want to as well. Your trying to make the fact that your actually delaying them with that level as sounding better than it actually is because those ASI's and the benefits from them are only set back by actually delaying the levels that you get them. What you choose to do with those Benefits does not actually set them back. And in some cases there are alternate ways to take them or to take them even earlier.
But you don't want it looked at in that way because it makes the true delay of that level look worse. Because Here's the kicker. Taking that extra level to get them. Applies to those 4 levels and 8 levels your trying to claim taking the feats sets things back as well by doing your single level in a different class method. Because your still delaying the benefits of the ASi's and the ones you choose to take are still going to Delay the others that you want to take as you put it. Your just trying to make the delay seem less than it is by going "Look I handed you more stuff up front so you don't notice I'm pushing everything else back by doing it this way." You may gain a single spell slot a bit earlier. And may be able to move that up slightly but your actually delaying a bunch of spell slots to a later level as well. So it looks nice saying "You have an extra spell slot here." And down play that "Your not getting this spell or these spell slots here until you reach this point" and then saying it all looks good because you got something a bit earlier.
As for Frustrations with the Warlock, and to some extent the Sorcerer, and many half casters. Many people expect these things to play like a wizard so they get frustrated that they aren't getting a different flavor of wizard. Even if they aren't voicing it in that way. Even your fix here is an attempt in it's own way to Make the Aritificer 'More Wizard' by adding Wizard into it. This is something these classes are always going to deal with. But it's going to happen even more every time somebody claims they can fix it by front loading a bit of stuff so it becomes the expectation once more. Sorcerer's and Warlock's both in particular have been wizards Lesser little brothers for quite a while now because they aren't quite as good as Wizarding as Wizards instead of trying to build up and branch out their unique flavors a bit more. The same thing came up I noticed because of the Order of the Scribes second level power is/was getting seen as somehow over powered because people were trying to game it. But somehow the sorcerer class as a whole getting an option to do that same thing with way less restrictions but slighty less damage choices in a very sorcerer way simply couldn't be as good.
But let's get back on topic. Let's talk about those canons. Let's talk about Just what usefulness they can get into because of a single spell slot with those things. Just starting at level 3 and the beginning of the Artillerist. These Canon's last an hour, which honestly feels slightly lackluster to me because many other base subclass features last a lot longer than them if not indefinitely, but the first casting doesn't even take a spell slot. You basically get to conjure up these machinations for free 1 time. That's better than what many wizards and Sorcerer's can do, Only warlocks get many things that they can do without taking a spell slot 1 time. And it's still an hour to boot so when it comes to dungeon crawling. That may potentially be 2 or 3 fights. 4 if your delving into a place that's tightly packed with encounters. And should they go down or the time expire. You can bring them back out for a single level 1 spell slot. The downside of course being that Artificers are somewhat limited in spell slots, and this is going to hurt the most actually when you first get going with the artillerist so level 3 and 4. But thanks to your Eldritch Canon your basically casting a second Cantrip, in the same round your doing so with your action, as your bonus action without actually running into casting rules to do it for every turn you want to use your Bonus Action in that way and the Canon has something it can hit in it's range which comes down more to which canon you choose and where you choose to position it than anything else.
Level 5 this is actually eased up a bit and possibly more at level 6. This is because, similar to the warlock when picking certain invocations, level 5 for the Artificer is where on top of gaining Second level spell slots the Chosen Attack Cantrip of the Artillerist is going to become much more viable. The Cantrip is still going to be purely hit or miss and lacking partial damage But instead of gaining just one tier level of damage die at level 5. The Artillerist gets to do what no other caster gets to do at that level. They get to add most if not all or more of another tier level of damage to their cantrip (depending on which Artificer Cantrip you chose to use most). The Warlock only might compare with a rather EB focused build but if they are focused elsewhere you actually have the advantage over them, at the price that your damage is perhaps a little bit more variable than theirs. One Cantrip that I might suggest actually for the Artillerist that's actually fairly good to cast over and over in general is frostbite. It's a con save and cold damage with natural damage dice is only being d6's (so the d8 is slightly larger) but more importantly it causes disadvantage on one attack roll that the target takes before the end of it's next turn. This is great to be putting on many kinds of enemies. Ray of Frost could be a nice alternative for slowing things constantly making them a bit less mobile and thus less of a threat, or Acid Splash might be a potential for it's minor ability of potentially hitting 2 targets. Firebolt would get slightly less than a full tier of damage from the ability and be a highly resisted type of damage but it at least has the greater range
At level 6 they get a bit more of a break because their list of possible magic items to replicate grows. And some of those items are vastly overlooked but surprisingly powerful in the hands of a clever person. One of those items for example is the Lantern of Revealing. For a single pint of oil, Nothing is going to get within 30 feet of your Artificer while invisible and not get caught out by everybody for an entire 6 hours without the need for concentration. Rendering whole tactics used by many rogues and some other creatures fairly useless against you. Wand of Magic Detection is another that let's you cast that spell 3 times a day giving you a total of 30 minutes to be able to find magical aura's around without having to rely on ritual casting it or using up one of your valuable first level spell slots. And 3 castings tends to be a fairly useful amount unless you are in tightly packed and long running circumstances. Eyes of Charming while they might not match your DC let's you potentially carry around 3 charm person spells with you instead of trying to cast them with spell slots as another example. If your doubling as the Parties Rogue or Scout for some reason. They gain items to help with that as well which helps to bypass the need to cast certain kinds of buffs. And the biggest beauty of it all is that many of these items at this level still don't need attunement so they can be passed around the group or simply used to supplement your own spell casting.
So Yes Artificers are half Casters, and Yes Artillerists are the closest of these Half Casters to perhaps leaning towards Full Caster. But much like a Warlock, once you really give it's kit a chance, You'll find a lot of things that with a little clever play or a little clever planning can be quite powerful, and may even in some ways forgo that need to immediately have 20 intelligence that your claiming is being put off by as much as 8 levels. Or you might decide you really want to pair with that 20 intelligence as soon as possible and supplement out the support work and the like to other class abilities making those Feats something that you don't really take and factor in until much higher level if at all. But None of the ASI's are actually being Delayed by any actual amount by sticking to Purely the Artificer.
Fateless: if you pick Magic Initiate, you can’t pick a different feat or ASI. The other thing that you would have picked will be pushed back 4 levels. So, saying that Magic Initiate and Ritual caster are as good as one level of Wizard ignores the benefits that the multiclassed character would get in their place. It’s a trade off.
Stoutstein: it’s a shortcut to more spell slots & cantrips. I’ve been clear about the tradeoffs, and I went back & added clarifications & more detail where folks disagreed. I think we just have different perspectives on the term shortcut.
It's not pushed back 4 levels. The other thing you would have picked. Would be the other thing you would have picked. And if you valued it more. You'd have picked it and Magic Initiate or Ritualist or what ever else would be the Other Thing. It's literally that simple. You either pick it or you do not. There is no you pick it but it only becomes available 4 levels later. Now you have another choice in 4 levels and you might decide then to turn the thing that you did not pick the first time into your second choice. But that is still the Second Pick, not the first pick, and not the third pick, or the fourth pick.
Taking a level of Wizard has the cost of pushing back Artificer features. Taking two feats to get some of the benefits of a level of Wizard has the cost of not taking better feats or ASIs at those levels. Both are trade offs.
It actually started with the initial playtest surveys they took during the D&D NEXT phase, before 5e came out. From what I understand, they actually did some very scientifically rigorous research through multiple channels at this point, and afaik nothing has happened since then to change this initial assessment. I remember Mearls and company being rather surprised at the lack of people who played til high levels.
What are your Better Feats? And if they are Better Feats is it necessarily even worth trying to get something like Magical Initiate(Artificer Initiate perhaps?) or Ritualist at all if they are. Also are they just generally better feats or are they better for what you personally want to do? These are all important questions that make your reasoning here somewhat intangible and undefined. For what your trying to accomplish with the one level of Wizard. Most if not all of it can be obtained with these feats. Making them highly useful for an alternate for a build that we are talking here. This means that other feats are not necessarily in fact Better for the purpose we are after in this case.
Since the Artificer in General does not actually have a lot of demand on their ASI's being SAD and with a handy ability to gain magic items to fill in holes in their builds more reliably than any other character that doesn't actually have a DM willing to work with players to hand out specific items. There is not the same Demand on their ASI's when they get them that even some other SAD based classes might possess. This makes Feats more Viable and customizing those Feats to your intent more valuable than ever before.
Ritualist is a feat that in a lot of ways is actually stronger than the base ability it is built after. Primarily because it has NO class restrictions like any natural Ritual Caster from their class actually has. This is why at one time it was occasionally considered a situational or personal taste pick even on classes that had the ability to ritually cast to begin with. It has often been considered a strong pick on any non ritual capable classes as a way to add more spell casting without the need for spell slots what so ever. Which makes it a good fit for the Artillerist on it's own because of that fact alone. So having something better either needs to fit the purpose of your build better to really say your somehow losing out on it to pick Ritualist to begin with.
The Point of Magical Initiate (or Artificer Initiate) is to gain more spells that you can use in general and broaden your list of usable spells at any given time. Now your advocating for a class level to primarily pick up 3 Cantrips in this regard. Magical Initiate doesn't require delaying any of your class benefits but at the cost of only learning two Cantrips and only being able to be gotten at certain levels. In the Case of Artificer Initiate it's one Cantrip and 1 first level spell to your readied spells list that you can also cast once without using a spell slot. Magical Initiate (without DM intervention) and the Class Level both have the same secondary problem. No matter what spells you pick with it they do not synergize fully with the Artillerists Subclass Features. This limits to what you would pick with them to either being utility, Mostly RP based flavor Cantrips that everybody considers must haves, or the rare attack cantrip that it's worth taking it's secondary ability for over any damage dealing the cantrip might if you want to take full advantage of what you pick (Mind Sliver only situationally fits this last one at best despite being current flavor of the month). All 3 options that we're discussing here have different amounts of trade off's to get done. But they are tradeoffs. So when your considering things like other Feats to take? This one probably has an easier time to justify different choices for Feats that might do different or similar things for you that might be deemed better choices overall even for the purpose we are trying to achieve. But that's primarily because of the tradeoffs for what it is that you gain exist in pretty much all of them. Something like say Fey Touched or Shadow Touched are Good Examples since you get a decently valuable 2nd level spell that you can cast once without bothering to use a spell slot as well as the ability to cast them again with a spell slot and they are both spells that don't have any contradictions with your class and subclass features and on top of that they both allow you to pick a first level spell of your choosing with the same abilities within certain schools of magic that you can actually potentially line up and synergize with your class and subclass features to take full advantage of them or pick spells that at least don't have interaction issues. And they still have the advantage of a stat boost on top of it if your needing that or valuing it as your top priority.
I'm aware of the reputation that Mobile is getting as a must have in most people's builds but a large part of it goes unused on ranged caster characters being primarily melee oriented in design. The movement based traits often go unused on Ranged characters either because they don't move as much. They have more time to get out of the way in the first place, or they often don't need to move nearly as far as a melee character does. The increase to movement speed is seen as some huge benefit but it doesn't help you in many of the situations where you'd want it most on many characters. That being of creatures managing to get in your face and the main reason they are going to get in your face is either an ambush or they are simply faster than you are meaning your ability to run away probably isn't superior to theirs even when enhanced. There are probably plenty of times where there are actually more impactful choices that you can make with your ASI choice even though mobile as a feat in general is not a bad one. But it is something to perhaps consider when the topic of "Better Feats" is going to be fully discussed in particular.
There’s no need to analyze specific feats to determine that taking one feat prevents you from taking a different feat or ASI.
By saying that I’m advocating for a multiclass primarily to pick up 3 cantrips, you’re either misunderstanding or misrepresenting my posts. I suggest re-reading the thread.
I've read it. I've read your analysis of individual levels and all of that. The Gains are not as great as they are claimed. They are front loaded. And the complaint that sparked the whole thing of taking the wizard level was sparked primarily over having to use the same very limited number of cantrips over and over again with a bit of a complaint about the spell slots the Artificer has that you don't exactly fix anyway. So yes. That makes the Cantrips the primary thing your gaining out of it. With Some ritual ability and possibly an extra spell slot that you may only be able to sometimes upcast into being kind of secondary.
As for Analyzing feats. There is a great need to Analyze feats to say which one is more worth taking for what your trying to accomplish. Trying to say it's pointless because you can't simply take them all... or even all at once is actually a backwards argument because only if you could do those things would Analyzing the Feats themselves have no value because you would get all such abilities regardless. However since we can't do those things we need some measure of capability of just what abilities we can add in might be more valuable and more beneficial to actually add to the characters as compared to the ones that we decide to leave out.
You’re undervaluing spell slots, and misrepresenting my posts. It doesn’t look like we will come to an agreement there.
And my argument is not that “it's pointless because you can't simply take them all.” I said that you don’t need to analyze feats to understand that taking one prevents you from taking a different one at that level. Taking a feat for cantrips means that you can’t take another feat or ASI for four levels. The player who takes one level of Wizard for cantrips (among other things) can also take a feat or ASI only one level later than normal. I don’t think I can make it any clearer, and I’m tired of arguing with you about it.
Representing a Choice as Prevention of other Choices is entirely making an argument of "I want to be able to take them all". You may want to frame it as something else but that's exactly what it is. If you choose a feat you more want for personal reasons than the best choice. That is your Choice. That is not some form of sinister prevention unless your trying to get everything. And Arguing against Analyzing your choices because you can't have all of them is exactly as I have stated again no matter how you want to frame it. Your purposely trying to create a negative view of the choice that is a choice no matter what simply because that Choice is different from your chosen choice and you are never giving any alternatives or why those choices might be more needed, better in general, or otherwise good personal picks. This is what keeps much of your very general argument against what I'm saying rather intangible and undefined. You actually refuse to define it and label the choice as something bad instead.
And Let me tell you something. I may point out these things are a possible and very viable alternative to this build. But I personally don't think that something like Ritual Caster is even necessarily needed in the first place. Even if it is a useful and Viable Alternative to actually delaying everything and temporarily preventing even the choice around ASI's by taking a level in another class since ASI's are not tied to character level but the actual classes.
I see a lot of value in the various class features. I also understand the value of Spell slots. I've had to represent the effect of basically getting extra slots from the casting of a spell or another featue many times. I've had to do it even with pure caster classes like the Wizard and the Cleric Who in large part revolve around their spell slots for class Functionality. But I also Understand Full Casters that have a lot to offer other than spell Slots such as the Sorcerer, Or more in particular the Warlock who relies heavily on other features over Pure Spell Slots for much of their Casting. Which is why I can see a lot of use for the Artificer. So I'm not misrepresenting your posts when I can recognize your whole basis came largely out of a complaint that Artificer started with too few Cantrips and that they would rely heavily on Cantrips as their most common means of attack. When if you look at their spell list and their actuality this is not only True of the Caster leaning Artillerist but actually all Artificers, partly because they are not actually full casters no matter how hard you try to force any of them to be, And partly because their attack spells are very few and very far between. So even if you have the spell slots your just going to be dealing with the logistics of either making those few attack spells work over and over again or your going to be using those spell slots primarily for what the Artificer is good at which is support (which doesn't necessarily need cast every single round) and falling back on using cantrips and your class features for the bulk of what you do in combat. This in short changes the value of a single spell slot quite a bit, even one you can upcast into, much like it does when it comes to additional Spell Slots on the Warlock and pro's and con's of such things there when only added in minority.
Fateless: it seems like you are more interested in creating an argument than discussing the topic at hand. I’ve made my points and I clarified them several times for you. Feel free to build your character however you please.
Thanks, this is really interesting.
Fateless, what Patrick is talking about is opportunity costs. It's the idea that whenever you are presented with a choice of options and can only pick one, the "cost" of that choice is losing the opportunity to do any of the other things you could've used that opportunity to do.
Your argument, provided I've understood it correctly, is that taking multiple feats to mimic having taken a level in Wizard (i.e. Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster) is better than taking the wizard level because you dislike multiclassing and don't want to delay artificer progression. Patrick's argument is simply that the opportunity costs of taking those feats is not being able to do other things you could do at those ASI levels, such as boost Intelligence or acquire other feats you like better, and that a single level of wizard offers most of the benefits of those multiple feats as well as better spell slot progression without losing the opportunity to do something cool with one's ASIs. One gets those ASIs one level later, delays artificer progression, and if your campaign goes to very high levels you lose your obscenely powerful artificer capstone, but for a majority of levels earlier in that character's career, the single wizard level offers considerable benefit.
The opportunity cost of the wizard level is relatively low compared to other ways of obtaining the same results, for the majority of the character's career. That's the point Patrick was making, and it's a solid one. For the most part, I concur - a single level of wizard is a huge help and drastically improves the artificer's versatility in all tiers of play. Artillerists looking to burn a lot of spell slots on cannons, or alchemists looking to actually use their shitty Wild Chemistry feature, further benefit from the enhanced slot progression.
Please do not contact or message me.
i never said better. Some of you may assume better but I never said it. What I said is that it's a viable and equal possibility to do instead. There are reasons based upon the class to keep your progression of abilities continueing as much as possible rather than delaying them. Which means that simply grabbing another level of something else isn't automatically a low cost decision. When your continued abilities and advances in what you are doing primarily rely on those advancements every level. Choosing to delay those progressions is actually fairly costly unlike in other classes where things may be gained only sporadically. So no. It is not some low cost basically free choice to make. Specially when there are other viable ways to make it.
And Opportunity costs. Are still not necessarily a prevention. Opportunity costs as as I stated a Matter of evaluating and balancing out the choice that works best for you. If a choice in an opportunity cost situation is not as good. you can show it as not as good and thus it's not actually a prevented choice, It's a non-prefered choice with low opportunity comparitively. I've also pointed out how the spell slot progression issue can easily be overcome in other ways. Spell slot progression loses value when the only thing you can do with those spell slots is upcast into them. Specially when your choices to upcast into them may or may not actually have the ability to take advantage of that upcasting or even when it does you might not actually be able to use it's upcasted bonus which means your actually burning higher level spell slots for no actual gain. This is low value and to be avoided if you can help it. Sometimes the way to avoid that is to simply not go for those spell slots early and pick up something else that is going to serve you better instead. And all of that is ignoring the fact that if this alternative that I put forth is such a high cost he should easily be able to point at various things that are more important and much more viable to take than a couple of Feats that mimic the abilities of other classes which is his primary point for taking the level in that class to begin with. I asked more than once for other options to be shown that would put more value on the class level. None have ever been provided except in a general offhanded manner.
Also if your burning a lot of spell slots on Cannons. Your doing something wrong more than likely. That's a waste of resources given their general durations and capabilities.
If I'm understanding that particular post correctly...
You're asking what's "better" than taking Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster to be a fake wizard rather than taking a single wizard level?
if so: boosting Intelligence. Artificers are very SAD, which is a strength of the class, but the downside of that is that artificers are incredibly dependent on getting the highest possible Intelligence they can as quickly as possible. Their extremely powerful Flash of Genius feature double-dips on Int - you get more uses with higher Intelligence and each use is more impactful. An artificer with 16 Intelligence gets three Flashes at +3 each, for a total of +9 to checks/saves per rest; the same artificer with 20 Intelligence gets five uses of +5 each, for a total of +25 to checks/saves per rest. That's nearly triple the value of the feature, to say nothing of how a +5 to a check/save is significantly more likely to fix it than a +3 is.
Artificers cast with Intelligence. Half of them attack with Intelligence, too. Intelligence drives their Magical Tinkering feature, and Intelligence is twice as important for determining their number of available spells as it is for a full-caster class. More than any other class in the game, artificers require high marks in their key attribute to be at all functional. Delaying any possible boost to their Intelligence until level freaking twelve is an absolute nonstarter when one single level of wizard gives you a far greater boost to your spells than Magic Initiate can, access to most of what you'd want Ritual Caster for at first level alone, improves your spell slots, grants you Arcane Recovery to get back a cannon on short rest, all while still allowing you to improve your Intelligence at a reasonable rate.
The choice is not "take a level of Wizard or take 2+ feats to get some of the things a level of Wizard would get you while being bad at being an artificer", it's "take a level of wizard, or choose to focus on artificer things and don't bother with ritual spells, cantrips, or any of that wizard shit." If you don't believe the value of that wizard level to be worth slowed artificer progression, then don't take it. But I'm not sure why castigating Patrick over and over for suggesting that it's a good option for people who do value that versatility is warranted?
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They aren't actually pushed to get that Intelligence higher than other classes. Wizards have several functions that work off of their intelligence as well. The reality is that in 5e the balance is actually lower and while yes that additional +2 can help over a +3 it's not necessarily as ground shaking in it's numerical advantage as your making it out to be.
Flash of Genius is also gotten first at level 7. This means it's only going to see moderate use at best before level 8 (The First ASI after it is gotten where a boost in intelligence could potentially be taken). It also has some pretty decent restrictions in it's usage such as a 30' limit and requiring your reaction to be able to use so it's not necessarily always going to be available when it would actually be useful. Nor is it necessarily useful for groups so while it might save one person or make 1 attempt at a skill more likely to succeed it does not necessarily mean it's going to overwhelming help on many more checks even with 5 uses over 3 uses between each long rest.
You can argue that the DC of the spells is important and to some degree it is. But those with a lot of experience with wizards and even clerics can tell you that maxing it out is not always necessary until you get into Tier 3 (levels 10 to 15, important because level 12 falls in this range) if not Tier 4. Specially if your spells tend to focus much more on the utilitarian in the way that the Artificer's spell progression does because many of those spells require neither attack rolls nor saves to be made so you can go longer before you actually gain an increase in the stat. Particularly if your starting out in the 16 to 18 range initially on the stat. There are also several magical items you can end up picking up to actually shore up these particular numbers. Some of which are potential candidates for your infusions. And even if you can't find one to suit your taste I know for a fact that the Artificer can make the headband of Intellect by level 10. Meaning that you can simulate one of those ASI's before you ever get to level 12. And ARtificer's get a nice middle ground between Wizards and Sorcerer's with their spells. They can choose to change their known spells list at any time, not just when they level, So even with a smaller list available at any one time they have potential access overall to more than the Sorcerer. But they are not required to keep a compendium with them like the Wizard is to do so, Requiring simply a certain amount of time based upon that spell list after each long rest. This can overcome the issue in difference of just one or two spells gained by the intelligence increase (which is literally all it is) in a way that is much more useful and on demand than it is for the Sorcerer.
So no it's not simply a choice of "Take a level of Wizard and delay everything Artificer" or "Choose to only do artificer things and focus only on Artificer to the exclusion of everything else". The Artificer has a lot of options for dealing with these kinds of things and more reliably than those other classes do that you say don't require them nearly as much. Some of them come early in their career and some come at the midway point but very few of them are stuck waiting until truly late in their career to be available. This means they have a lot of grey area and potentially viable alternatives and through adventure they might even find things that solve some of these issues for them which then frees them up to do something we haven't even discussed.
I admit, Fateless. I'm not sure what your argument is anymore?
From what I can gather, you seem to be protesting the idea of Wizard levels entirely - the best conclusion I can draw from what you're saying is that you don't think a level in wizard is ever a good idea and you want people to avoid doing it. I'm...not sure why? The benefits are pretty plain to see, as are the opportunity costs of availing oneself of those benefits. What am I not seeing, here?
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I'm not protesting the idea entirely. I'm protesting the idea that it's the ONLY possible and viable solution. While you and Patrick are rather adamant that it's the ONLY possible solution. I've said many times there are other alternatives and ways to do things in my posts but it has gotten heavily ignored only for the way of adding Wizard as portrayed as the only possible solution and argued against from that standpoint repeatedly. I keep getting told my alternative is wrong or taking things away while having the idea of Wizard being used as having no real drawbacks instead of any acceptance that both solutions are viable and it's up to the person making the build and they both have advantages and drawbacks.