I was wondering what you all think is statistically better for a barb, Unarmored defense, or armor, and if armor, what type. Keep in mind that the fast movement ability only is cancelled out if you’re wearing medium, but the Unarmored defense requires no armor. Any opinions?
Should be quite easy to figure out. If you constitution+dexterity modifier is 7 or higher you are better of without armor, if not you go for half-plate. Fast movement works in medium armor, only heavy armor stops it. Rage is also cancelled in heavy armor, so using that as a barbarian is kind of terrible :)
Given that a combined modifier of 7 is quite high on top of strength I think a lot of barbarians will wear half-plate.
Unarmored defense is cooler, Medium Armor is better for your stat spread. Then you need only 14 dex and can max your strength and invest in social stat. The other thing to mention is that armor can get magic enchantments, unarmored does not.
Unarmored Defense is, I think, a lot more complicated than people seem to think it is. All it does is give you another means of calculating AC, and it doesn't suddenly stop working if you are. If your dexterity is 14, your constitution is 18, and you're wearing a chain shirt, your AC doesn't drop to only 15. It stays at 16. All this means you can wear magic armor for some other benefit, like if the chain shirt above were also adamantine armor, and you don't need to be picky about it.
That said, a pair of bracers of defense gives you the benefit of a shield, while unarmored, and still lets you wield a two-handed weapon.
Unarmored Defense is, I think, a lot more complicated than people seem to think it is. All it does is give you another means of calculating AC, and it doesn't suddenly stop working if you are. If your dexterity is 14, your constitution is 18, and you're wearing a chain shirt, your AC doesn't drop to only 15. It stays at 16.
I'm not sure that it's supposed to, the Unarmored Defense rule specifically states "While you are not wearing any armor", so you can't wear that chain shirt and still use your Unarmored AC. The D&D Beyond character sheet however can be a bit weird when it comes to the correct AC (sometimes you have to reload it or un-equip and re-equip items before it'll reset to the correct value, while other times it'll just work, which has made it hard to report a bug).
This feature differs for example compared to a Tortle's Natural Armour, which specifically sets your base AC to 17 with no modifiers, so if you wear worse armour it won't decrease (but conversely better armour also won't increase it, though I think you can still gain further magical effects I believe, though the wording isn't super clear).
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I don't see why this wouldn't apply to when wearing armor, too.
Because it specifically only works when not wearing any armor. Is there a balance reason why you can't choose? Maybe if the armor has special properties, but specific beats general, and unarmored defense specifically states when not wearing any armor. IMO, it's dumb, but that's the RAW as I read it.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
again, unarmored defense is not a selectable option when you are wearing armor.
EDIT: The only choice you have is armor, when you are wearing armor. It's not a choice at that point. The rule you site is for situations when you have say, barbarian unarmored defense AND monk unarmored defense. You only get to choose 1.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yes, you only get to choose which option applies since none of them stack. That's expressly in the text of the article. But that doesn't mean any one of those options prevents you from still having the other options. The very idea that wearing armor somehow lessens your constitution's contribution to AC when it doesn't negatively impact hit points or saving throws is asinine. That's why they're all listed together.
A lizardfolk wearing leather armor doesn't suddenly lose 2 points worth of AC. They choose the most beneficial.
But that doesn't mean any one of those options prevents you from still having the other options
The Unarmored Defense feature itself does:
While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit.
That AC value only exists when not wearing armour, the moment you put armour on your Unarmored Defense ceases to exist. It kind of makes sense if you assume that a Barbarian's Unarmored Defense comes from their ability to avoid being hit (i.e- they're at their most agile without armour).
Mechanically it's a bit weird, but it's also partly justified by how high a Barbarian can get their Constitution, which is 24 at level 20 with no magic items, so that's a +7, if combined with a +5 in Dexterity (a bit unlikely for a Barbarian, but possible if you get a Strength boosting item so don't need a high innate Strength score) then that'd be AC 22, on top of which you can also add a shield (including magic shields) if you want to.
But yeah, RAW you definitely cannot use your unarmored AC while wearing armour, as the feature ceases to exist the moment you put armour on. Depending on your character it may seem weird, and your DM is always free to agree with you and handle it differently, but that's a house rule.
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You explicitly choose whichever available formula provides the most benefit. It's in the PHB. It's in an official article from Wizards of the Coast. It's even supported by the way the character builders work here and on other, partner websites. I do not understand what is so difficult about this to grasp.
You explicitly choose whichever available formula provides the most benefit. It's in the PHB. It's in an official article from Wizards of the Coast. It's even supported by the way the character builders work here and on other, partner websites. I do not understand what is so difficult about this to grasp.
Since one of those formulas (Unarmored Defence) has a very specific condition (not wearing armor) you can't use that option if that condition is not fulfilled. It's really that simple.
This is a prime example of the 'meta rule' "Exceptions Supersede General Rules" (explained in detail in Xanathar's Guide to Everything)
The game also includes elements — class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and the like — that sometimes contradict a general rule. When an exception and a general rule disagree, the exception wins.
So we have a general rule as stated:
Some spells and class features give you a different way to calculate your AC. If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use.
This rule states that across the game (in general), if you have multiple features that let you calculate your AC different, you can choose which one you use. This applies to all characters, regardless of class, race, etc. It's a fairly general rule.
However, we have this specific exception from the Barbarian class
While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit.
The bolded clause is an exception to the general rule, and per how specific exceptions win out against general rule, supersedes your ability to choose your AC calculation. You cannot choose this AC calculation while you are wearing armor.
It's important to note that D&D Beyond goes to every effort to accurately automate all calculations and class features. However, when the rules as they appear in the official content and the automation disagree, much like how specific beats general, the rules trump the automation of the character sheet and tools. There are a few such examples such as some instances of AC calculation, spell limitation by school for Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight, and fighting style selection. These do not change the rules, the rules of D&D always apply.
So a barbarian with 18 constitution and leather armor of cold resistance loses -3 Armor Class? Does the same happen to a lizardfolk ranger? (Before anyone decides to be a pedant, no, it's only -2.)
As I read it, and going by the Sage Advice guidance, all the feature does is give you an alternate way of calculating AC when not wearing armor. You, the player, still get to choose the most beneficial formula for you. Putting on unrestrictive armor doesn't make your pectoral muscles or gatorskin hide any less durable.
I respect you coming in here to try and settle an argument. I know you're just doing your job, but...man...I cannot agree with your position.
You'll probably swap between options through the course of a campaign, depending on circumstances. Its a little inconvenient to max out dexterity as a barb, so unarmored defense will usually drop off fast, especially if you find magic gear.
So a barbarian with 18 constitution and leather armor of cold resistance loses -3 Armor Class? Does the same happen to a lizardfolk ranger? (Before anyone decides to be a pedant, no, it's only -2.)
As I read it, and going by the Sage Advice guidance, all the feature does is give you an alternate way of calculating AC when not wearing armor. You, the player, still get to choose the most beneficial formula for you. Putting on unrestrictive armor doesn't make your pectoral muscles or gatorskin hide any less durable.
I respect you coming in here to try and settle an argument. I know you're just doing your job, but...man...I cannot agree with your position.
Yes, a barbarian could potentially lose AC when their unarmored defence is better than their AC from their armor, because unarmored defence has an explicit caveat that says "When you are not wearing armor". If you are wearing armor, you do not get unarmed defence (because, well, you're not unarmored after all).
It's just the same with Lizardfolk's Natural Armor
When you aren’t wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
If you put on armor as a lizardfolk, your AC could go down because you cease to be not wearing armor, thus the ability isn't valid.
The feature does indeed give you an alternate way of calculating AC provided you meet the criteria, which in these examples is not wearing armor. You cannot be simultaneously wearing armor (to benefit from the armors AC calculation) and not wearing armor (to benefit from unarmored defense/natural armor). Nothing is stopping the player from being able to choose from AC calculation options, it's just that one of the options is removed because you don't qualify for it.
Remember that AC doesn't just represent your ability to bounce blows off your skin, but also evade them and shrug off wounds. A character might find their AC reduced by wearing armor because it restricts their movements, or the nature of the armor prevents some natural property of their skin from being as protective. Whatever the conceit is (that's entirely down to the DM and players), the rules are pretty solid on it. If something says you get an AC calculation when you're not wearing armor, you must be not wearing armor to qualify for it.
Let's say that you have a Lizardfolk barbarian3/monk4 who happens to own Scale Mail and a Shield. The lizardfolk used standard array and chose 15 str, 13 dex, 14+2 con, 8 int, 12+1 wis, 10 cha. They're considering where they want to put the ASI from Monk 4 and they're considering options to help with their AC.
Every character has the option of 10+dex modifier. This would be 10+1 from dex and could include +2 from shield. That's 11 or 13 AC.
Lizardfolk has the option of Natural Armor. You have tough, scaly skin. When you aren’t wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC. A shield’s benefits apply as normal while you use your natural armor.
This would be 13+1 from dex and could include +2 from shield. That's 14 or 16. Wearing armor removes this option and is essentially your choice to use the armor calculation.
Barbarian gives the option of
Unarmored Defense
While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit.
This would be 10+1 from dex, +3 from con and could include +2 from shield. That's 14 or 16. Wearing armor removes this option and is essentially your choice to use the armor calculation.
Monk gives the following option
Unarmored Defense
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
This would be 10+1 from dex, +1 from wis and can't benefit from a shield. That's 12. Wearing armor or a shield removes this option and is essentially your choice to use the armor calculation.
Scale Mail offers 14+1 dex (max of 2) and can benefit from a shield with a +2. This is either 15 or 17.
Normal 11/13
Natural Armor 14/16
Barb UAD 14/16
Monk UAD 12
Scale Mail 15/17
Adding 1 to dex will increase every option by 1. Increasing wis by 1 increases Monk UAD by 1. Increasing Con by 2 increases Barb UAD by 1. Scale Mail will provide the best AC, but using it would eliminate the other options. This is understandable and doesn't quite get to the concern of wearing magical armor that provides bonuses other than +X to AC. However, the scale mail does have disadvantage on stealth checks, which is similar in implementation. Further, items like Bracers of Defense and abilities like the Defensive Fighting Style require one condition or the other. You are free to choose which AC calculation that you use, but you take all of the benefits and all of the drawbacks for each. You must meet all of the prerequisites for each one or suffer any penalty that is described by them, often that the calculation doesn't differ from the armor or 10+dex mod options.
Unarmored Defense is, I think, a lot more complicated than people seem to think it is. All it does is give you another means of calculating AC, and it doesn't suddenly stop working if you are. If your dexterity is 14, your constitution is 18, and you're wearing a chain shirt, your AC doesn't drop to only 15. It stays at 16. All this means you can wear magic armor for some other benefit, like if the chain shirt above were also adamantine armor, and you don't need to be picky about it.
That said, a pair of bracers of defense gives you the benefit of a shield, while unarmored, and still lets you wield a two-handed weapon.
In fact, it explicitly DOES stop working if you're wearing armor. "While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit." So if you're wearing armor, you cannot make use of your Unarmored Defense ability. If you're a Barbarian with Dex14, Con18, and you are not wearing armor, your AC is 16(10 + 2 + 4). If you put on a Chain Shirt, you are no longer "not wearing any armor", therefore you cannot make use of your Unarmored Defense. Your AC while wearing the Chain Shirt would be 13 + Dex Mod(max 2) = 15. As soon as you take the Chain Shirt off, you can go back to using Unarmored Defense. The AC calculation from the Chain Shirt only works when you are actually wearing it, so what would make you think you can ignore the requirements for Unarmored Defense?
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I was wondering what you all think is statistically better for a barb, Unarmored defense, or armor, and if armor, what type. Keep in mind that the fast movement ability only is cancelled out if you’re wearing medium, but the Unarmored defense requires no armor. Any opinions?
Should be quite easy to figure out. If you constitution+dexterity modifier is 7 or higher you are better of without armor, if not you go for half-plate. Fast movement works in medium armor, only heavy armor stops it. Rage is also cancelled in heavy armor, so using that as a barbarian is kind of terrible :)
Given that a combined modifier of 7 is quite high on top of strength I think a lot of barbarians will wear half-plate.
Thanks!
Unarmored defense is cooler, Medium Armor is better for your stat spread. Then you need only 14 dex and can max your strength and invest in social stat. The other thing to mention is that armor can get magic enchantments, unarmored does not.
Unarmored Defense is, I think, a lot more complicated than people seem to think it is. All it does is give you another means of calculating AC, and it doesn't suddenly stop working if you are. If your dexterity is 14, your constitution is 18, and you're wearing a chain shirt, your AC doesn't drop to only 15. It stays at 16. All this means you can wear magic armor for some other benefit, like if the chain shirt above were also adamantine armor, and you don't need to be picky about it.
That said, a pair of bracers of defense gives you the benefit of a shield, while unarmored, and still lets you wield a two-handed weapon.
I'm not sure that it's supposed to, the Unarmored Defense rule specifically states "While you are not wearing any armor", so you can't wear that chain shirt and still use your Unarmored AC. The D&D Beyond character sheet however can be a bit weird when it comes to the correct AC (sometimes you have to reload it or un-equip and re-equip items before it'll reset to the correct value, while other times it'll just work, which has made it hard to report a bug).
This feature differs for example compared to a Tortle's Natural Armour, which specifically sets your base AC to 17 with no modifiers, so if you wear worse armour it won't decrease (but conversely better armour also won't increase it, though I think you can still gain further magical effects I believe, though the wording isn't super clear).
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"Some spells and class features give you a different way to calculate your AC. If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use." -https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/step-by-step-characters#ArmorClass
I don't see why this wouldn't apply to when wearing armor, too.
Because it specifically only works when not wearing any armor. Is there a balance reason why you can't choose? Maybe if the armor has special properties, but specific beats general, and unarmored defense specifically states when not wearing any armor. IMO, it's dumb, but that's the RAW as I read it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That's only because your normal AC when unarmored is 10 plus dexterity modifier. Again, you get to choose which of your available formulas to use. If anyone has a more recent answer, I'd love to see it.
again, unarmored defense is not a selectable option when you are wearing armor.
EDIT: The only choice you have is armor, when you are wearing armor. It's not a choice at that point. The rule you site is for situations when you have say, barbarian unarmored defense AND monk unarmored defense. You only get to choose 1.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Yes, you only get to choose which option applies since none of them stack. That's expressly in the text of the article. But that doesn't mean any one of those options prevents you from still having the other options. The very idea that wearing armor somehow lessens your constitution's contribution to AC when it doesn't negatively impact hit points or saving throws is asinine. That's why they're all listed together.
A lizardfolk wearing leather armor doesn't suddenly lose 2 points worth of AC. They choose the most beneficial.
The Unarmored Defense feature itself does:
That AC value only exists when not wearing armour, the moment you put armour on your Unarmored Defense ceases to exist. It kind of makes sense if you assume that a Barbarian's Unarmored Defense comes from their ability to avoid being hit (i.e- they're at their most agile without armour).
Mechanically it's a bit weird, but it's also partly justified by how high a Barbarian can get their Constitution, which is 24 at level 20 with no magic items, so that's a +7, if combined with a +5 in Dexterity (a bit unlikely for a Barbarian, but possible if you get a Strength boosting item so don't need a high innate Strength score) then that'd be AC 22, on top of which you can also add a shield (including magic shields) if you want to.
But yeah, RAW you definitely cannot use your unarmored AC while wearing armour, as the feature ceases to exist the moment you put armour on. Depending on your character it may seem weird, and your DM is always free to agree with you and handle it differently, but that's a house rule.
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I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.
You explicitly choose whichever available formula provides the most benefit. It's in the PHB. It's in an official article from Wizards of the Coast. It's even supported by the way the character builders work here and on other, partner websites. I do not understand what is so difficult about this to grasp.
Since one of those formulas (Unarmored Defence) has a very specific condition (not wearing armor) you can't use that option if that condition is not fulfilled. It's really that simple.
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ModeratorThis is a prime example of the 'meta rule' "Exceptions Supersede General Rules" (explained in detail in Xanathar's Guide to Everything)
So we have a general rule as stated:
This rule states that across the game (in general), if you have multiple features that let you calculate your AC different, you can choose which one you use. This applies to all characters, regardless of class, race, etc. It's a fairly general rule.
However, we have this specific exception from the Barbarian class
The bolded clause is an exception to the general rule, and per how specific exceptions win out against general rule, supersedes your ability to choose your AC calculation. You cannot choose this AC calculation while you are wearing armor.
It's important to note that D&D Beyond goes to every effort to accurately automate all calculations and class features. However, when the rules as they appear in the official content and the automation disagree, much like how specific beats general, the rules trump the automation of the character sheet and tools. There are a few such examples such as some instances of AC calculation, spell limitation by school for Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight, and fighting style selection. These do not change the rules, the rules of D&D always apply.
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So a barbarian with 18 constitution and leather armor of cold resistance loses -3 Armor Class? Does the same happen to a lizardfolk ranger? (Before anyone decides to be a pedant, no, it's only -2.)
As I read it, and going by the Sage Advice guidance, all the feature does is give you an alternate way of calculating AC when not wearing armor. You, the player, still get to choose the most beneficial formula for you. Putting on unrestrictive armor doesn't make your pectoral muscles or gatorskin hide any less durable.
I respect you coming in here to try and settle an argument. I know you're just doing your job, but...man...I cannot agree with your position.
You'll probably swap between options through the course of a campaign, depending on circumstances. Its a little inconvenient to max out dexterity as a barb, so unarmored defense will usually drop off fast, especially if you find magic gear.
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ModeratorYes, a barbarian could potentially lose AC when their unarmored defence is better than their AC from their armor, because unarmored defence has an explicit caveat that says "When you are not wearing armor". If you are wearing armor, you do not get unarmed defence (because, well, you're not unarmored after all).
It's just the same with Lizardfolk's Natural Armor
If you put on armor as a lizardfolk, your AC could go down because you cease to be not wearing armor, thus the ability isn't valid.
The feature does indeed give you an alternate way of calculating AC provided you meet the criteria, which in these examples is not wearing armor. You cannot be simultaneously wearing armor (to benefit from the armors AC calculation) and not wearing armor (to benefit from unarmored defense/natural armor). Nothing is stopping the player from being able to choose from AC calculation options, it's just that one of the options is removed because you don't qualify for it.
Remember that AC doesn't just represent your ability to bounce blows off your skin, but also evade them and shrug off wounds. A character might find their AC reduced by wearing armor because it restricts their movements, or the nature of the armor prevents some natural property of their skin from being as protective. Whatever the conceit is (that's entirely down to the DM and players), the rules are pretty solid on it. If something says you get an AC calculation when you're not wearing armor, you must be not wearing armor to qualify for it.
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Let's say that you have a Lizardfolk barbarian3/monk4 who happens to own Scale Mail and a Shield. The lizardfolk used standard array and chose 15 str, 13 dex, 14+2 con, 8 int, 12+1 wis, 10 cha. They're considering where they want to put the ASI from Monk 4 and they're considering options to help with their AC.
Every character has the option of 10+dex modifier. This would be 10+1 from dex and could include +2 from shield. That's 11 or 13 AC.
Lizardfolk has the option of Natural Armor. You have tough, scaly skin. When you aren’t wearing armor, your AC is 13 + your Dexterity modifier. You can use your natural armor to determine your AC if the armor you wear would leave you with a lower AC. A shield’s benefits apply as normal while you use your natural armor.
This would be 13+1 from dex and could include +2 from shield. That's 14 or 16. Wearing armor removes this option and is essentially your choice to use the armor calculation.
Barbarian gives the option of
Unarmored Defense
While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit.
This would be 10+1 from dex, +3 from con and could include +2 from shield. That's 14 or 16. Wearing armor removes this option and is essentially your choice to use the armor calculation.
Monk gives the following option
Unarmored Defense
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
This would be 10+1 from dex, +1 from wis and can't benefit from a shield. That's 12. Wearing armor or a shield removes this option and is essentially your choice to use the armor calculation.
Scale Mail offers 14+1 dex (max of 2) and can benefit from a shield with a +2. This is either 15 or 17.
Normal 11/13
Natural Armor 14/16
Barb UAD 14/16
Monk UAD 12
Scale Mail 15/17
Adding 1 to dex will increase every option by 1. Increasing wis by 1 increases Monk UAD by 1. Increasing Con by 2 increases Barb UAD by 1. Scale Mail will provide the best AC, but using it would eliminate the other options. This is understandable and doesn't quite get to the concern of wearing magical armor that provides bonuses other than +X to AC. However, the scale mail does have disadvantage on stealth checks, which is similar in implementation. Further, items like Bracers of Defense and abilities like the Defensive Fighting Style require one condition or the other. You are free to choose which AC calculation that you use, but you take all of the benefits and all of the drawbacks for each. You must meet all of the prerequisites for each one or suffer any penalty that is described by them, often that the calculation doesn't differ from the armor or 10+dex mod options.
In fact, it explicitly DOES stop working if you're wearing armor. "While you are not wearing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit." So if you're wearing armor, you cannot make use of your Unarmored Defense ability. If you're a Barbarian with Dex14, Con18, and you are not wearing armor, your AC is 16(10 + 2 + 4). If you put on a Chain Shirt, you are no longer "not wearing any armor", therefore you cannot make use of your Unarmored Defense. Your AC while wearing the Chain Shirt would be 13 + Dex Mod(max 2) = 15. As soon as you take the Chain Shirt off, you can go back to using Unarmored Defense. The AC calculation from the Chain Shirt only works when you are actually wearing it, so what would make you think you can ignore the requirements for Unarmored Defense?