First of All. Focus Fire is just one basic tactic that even PC's use all the time. Calling it a non-valid tactic is entirely disengenuous.
Also trying to portray the ability as it shouldn't function at all under focus fire is Disengenuous when that was never my argument.
You want another Tactic that hits a party easily through all that supposed protection? A few casters. Just 2 or 3 casters wiling to use AoE and Multiple hit and Area control spells on top of the party just like the party often tries to do to the enemy. Deals quite a bit of damage. It doesn't stop Twiilght Sanctuary from blocking Damage. That's not the point. But it does still in fact cause the party a great deal of threat. At level 5 2 Fireballs is still risking lethality to the entire party even with Twilight Sanctuary active. Even though Twilight Sanctuary blocks 8 damage on average. Fireball on it's own is still doing 16 damage. If even one more Fireball lands in that same turn. Some of your party may die until you get a couple more levels under your belt. Just like fireball is so threatening to your enemies at this level and for 2 or 3 more levels. And having Just one person not in the range of Fireball still saves the same amount of damage as all of Twilight Sanctuary... A DM still has to worry about bombarding your party too fast so that you can't respond to it. With a bog standard spell at it's basic level and hasn't changed. This is a completely different tactic from focused fire to break a twilight Sanctuary party that a DM doesn't have to do anything different.
I shouldn't have to name all the tactics that work though. Since tactics that work against it... or even feed into it but still overwhelm the party are so easy to come up with. if you can't come up with them That doesn't make Twilight Sanctuary OP.
Also, it's completely incorrect that nothing else creates as much THP as Twilight Sanctuary. I already named on in this thread that Makes Twlight Sanctuary a Joke by the white room math that people use for it. In 1/3 of the effective space. But it's not OP for the same reason twilight Sanctuary is not OP. The Protection Cannon of the Artillerist Artificer is capable of pumping out 5400 THP per person if it were able to apply it's THP every turn for it's max duration. That's not an exageration and that is from level 8 onwards. Before Level 8 remove 1 point or 2 points as appropriate to your intelligence. For each point of intelligence mod below 20 subtract 600 points of protection from it. This puts the minimum that it can protect when calculated in the same ways everybody calculates Twilight Sanctuary to say how OP it is to a minimum of 4200 THP per person. This is An order of magnitude of about 15 or so Times better at it's base level than what Twilight Sanctuary can pump out at it's max level. And it does about 20x more output than Twilight Sanctuary at Max ability for Protection Cannon.
So let's really turn things into a party of 4 like you want to do with Twilight Sanctuary. that they are affected all the time and take just the right damage that THP is doing all the work and damage to health is minimual. Your looking at a total of 16,800 THP at a minimum of a party of 4. But certainly nothing else outputs like Twlight Sanctuary at it's 960 THP on average over 4 people for a full minute. Twilight Sanctuary is the only thing that does it.
So why aren't you argueing Protection cannon is OP? Because it doesn't remove frightened or Charm? it's still a single action, But it lasts an Hour. It's still movable with your character because you can carry a tiny cannon in your hand by default. is it the 10' distance of effect? Is that suddenly somehow too small? Because if it is then Where is that line drawn between them that allows one to be OP and the other not? Is it 11' of effect? Or 29 feet of effect? At what point does something that can create 20x more THP in it's perfect optimal scenario Not OP when Twilight Sanctuary is OP for making large amounts of THP?
Why are not not argueing that the Protection cannon is OP too? And for the Same Reasons as Twlight Sanctuary? You can apply the same logic to it that your applying to Twlight Sanctuary. What difference in it's Operation is not forcing DM's to rethink their enemy encounters and Adjusting CR for this ability? Where in your Black and white, works or it doesn't and no in between Logic Style that your using against me repeatedly to justify your own Personal Subjective Conclusion that it's OP turn against protection Cannon and make you Claim that Protection Cannon is Not OP and isn't doing the same thing as Twilight Sanctuary? I really want to know.
Because Yuo know what. I'm done Giving Examples where your thinking doesn't work. I've given dozens of them and just been accused of not staying on Point. If you can't answer these simple questions. Your Entire Premise is faulty. That's all there is to it. If your Excuse is simply the 10' then your Premise is faulty. If it's that it doesn't scale as well? Your Premise is faulty because for the levels that most people play which is an argument that comes up again and again, Protection Cannon actually does as good or better numbers for most levels. It's even Faulty if your Argument is because it's gotten at level 2. the Protection cannon is gotten at level 3. That is not a big difference. it's still low level and it's still usable for most of your career. The First Use of it also doesn't cost you anything more than an Action to pull it out. If Your Argument is because it requires your bonus action each turn to use, then if your answer is not proving difinitively that the Artificer has something better to do with it's bonus action on Every turn as a default then your argument is Faulty.
And don't even bother with the combinability with other abilities argument. Because not only does it work on both. But it's a faulty premise to begin with because Pretty much all defensive stuff has at least some combinability, And many of them are often doing more heavy lifting when combined with THP than THP is. Increases to AC, Resistances, Aid Spells, Cover, and even save proficiency/modifiers. All of it has always combined. The THP of twilight Sanctuary is not even remotely new in this regard. Come up with Something Better because your not actually proving a point here since I never said that Twilight Sanctuary does nothing.
I have always said it is usable, Just not as usable as Advertised. And that is exactly it. It is not as usable as Advertised and it doesn't force Entirely remaking encounters. The most it does is force DM's to actually run encounters instead of running meat sack enemies, Which they should be doing anyway. The Bear Totem Barbarian makes them do this anyway with it's rediculous amount of resistances. So Twlight Sanctuary isn't new in that regard either, and that came with the PHB. Your Just looking at Bear Totem 2.0 and that's it.
You want it to be any more than that and you want to it to actually be objectively OP. Prove it with more than just Hyperbollic math and arguments that don't actually refute me of "Well it still does something and that makes it powerful!" Something Nobody here has actually done. It's time for you to prove the Trivialization instead of just claiming it or having it ride on the back of other Defensive Abilities.
I've shown not just the math of what Twilight Sanctuary Blocks under even optimal conditions but also the amount of damage the party takes making it work. The Intake Damage without other Defensive Factors is higher than the damage it blocks at most levels, Except at levels 2 and 3 and perhaps 4 where it's most obviously front loaded and most other things are frontloaded too. Taking 100 and 200 and 300 damage a turn just so you can block 50 or 100 is not a good conversion rate for OP'ness. When Not standing in the way is as Effective as your OP ability, Even if you cannot guarantee it on every turn, Then your ability is probably not OP no matter how you Swing the Cat in the Crowded room. Because you can't guarantee having Twilight Sanctuary up either. There are lots of ways to incapacitate the Cleric without draining all of their hp. There are times you won't have it available. And if you can't prove it's supposed capability without these things being true. It's time to accept that perhaps the perception of the ability your pushing isn't true either and should be let go.
Let me Demonstrate what I mean. Let's take that same Adult Gold Dragon going all out with PHysical attacks. It could kill that fighter in 2 turns without protections. Without raging it would take not quite 3 rounds to down the Barbarian without rage because it would have about 280 health. Then just by Raging the Barbarian suddenly halves all that physical damage. All of a sudden. Those 3 rounds to kill the Barbarian are now a full 5 rounds to just barely do enough damage. That's if it's going all out on physical damage. If we ignore it's legendary action damage and such by assuming they target a second party member. Since it's damage is now about 60 a turn. It's going to take the Dragon 5 turns to down the barbarian without it's rage. However, It's going to take it 10 rounds to down the barbarian once it is raging and it's resistances apply.
You're so close. Now add in 23.5 THP per round to the barbarian and you'll realize that he basically doesn't die. That dragon can't kill him. Well, not for a while anyway. A long, unrealistically long while for a combat. You'll have won that combat long, long ago. Instead of 10 rounds, it'd be 30+. I say 30+ because that's all 3 minutes of twilight sanctuary. Only after it fades can the barbarian die at roughly 7 damage a round on average lol.
I want to touch on this special. I'm not so close. your still so incredibly far. If the Dragon wants him Dead. The Dragon has much more damage that he can pump into the Barbarian. Another 60 Damage in fact. The Barbarian's Resistance can deal with that. But your all out of Twlight Sanctuary. But there is an even easier solution. ignore the Barbarian while it's in this state and eat all of his friends. Solves the Immortality issue and gets rid of other threats while the dragon is at it. An easy solution to think of for anybody not solely focused on Twilight Sanctuary. So the Barbarian is doing better. But it's mostly doing better because of it's resistances. Twilight Sanctuary is helping a little. But The Dragon Can even overcome it or choose thta as a reason that the Barbarian isn't worth it until the others are dead. Because the reality is that at 65% (that the barbarian reaches where the warrior did not) It's still going to take a long time for the Barbarian to try and kill the Dragon by itself. Even more if the Dragon gets smart and keeps repositioning every other turn to make the Barbarian run after it. Sure the Dragon's DPS might drop a bit but the Barbarian's drops by a lot. It's just another Easy tactical solution without upping the difficulty of the Dragon. What do you Do now? Keep focusing on making Twlight Sanctuary suck up a bit of damage? Because you'll just end up hoping it trivializes the encounter until your dead. For that matter. What do you do if the Dragon just decides to pick up the Barbarian and fly out of range of Twilight Sanctuary with him? They can do that. They could also pick up the Cleric and move him instead. And what do you do when the Dragon decides that it's lair action to send somebody away for a turn is to be used on the Barbarian? Who's pretty much sure to fail so your immortal barbarian is only around every other turn even if it doesn't fly away? I never said the Barbarian was even close to perfect. I was just showing how it was so much more survivable on it's own regardless of Twilight Sanctuary than Twilight Sanctuary was providing to a non-barbarian. And this should have been obvious given the context that I gave to things. Hell Even the Dragon itself would be blocking more damage for the Barbarian than Twilight Sanctuary would be if it did pick it to send it into the dream realm every other round.
It doesn't just Lag behind by a few points to your False Life Casting at 4th level. It lags behind by more than a level of casting.
No it doesn't; if you assume five party members then at 9th level you're getting 20-23 THP out of False Life, for Twilight Sanctuary you're getting 10-15 per player per round; that's 50-75 per round, or 250-375 over a five round encounter, and all it costs is a single use of a short rest ability (of which you have two uses by this point), rather than a valuable 4th level spell slot.
Seriously Fateless; you are going massively out your way to pretty dishonestly argue in favour of something that is objectively overpowered. Why?
Fudging your numbers doesn't make it any weaker in practice, it is massively overpowered compared to literally every other channel divinity, making Twilight Domain hands down, objectively and without question the most powerful domain. Arcana gets a nice ability at 17th level but that's far too little too late, Twilight Domain makes a mockery of Arcana (and most other domains) from 2nd level. None of your inconsistent and wildly inaccurate arguments changes that one simple fact.
But as usual with you I'm sick of going in circles; you're objectively provably wrong yet continuing to make nonsensical arguments that a channel divinity that is simply objectively OP somehow isn't (even though it is)? Why? Why do you care? Why continue? I know it would be a first, but why not just admit you're wrong for once, instead of bending over backwards to say nothing? I know you probably won't answer though, and I won't see it anyway as I'm unsubscribing, as this is just boring and annoying now for no reason.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
He is in a twilight bubble and your arguments (read attacks) are doing no damage. Even with focusing fire it still doesn't matter. Someone tried to frighten them and the bubble just broke it.
It doesn't just Lag behind by a few points to your False Life Casting at 4th level. It lags behind by more than a level of casting.
No it doesn't; if you assume five party members then at 9th level you're getting 20-23 THP out of False Life, for Twilight Sanctuary you're getting 10-15 per player per round; that's 50-75 per round, or 250-375 over a five round encounter, and all it costs is a single use of a short rest ability (of which you have two uses by this point), rather than a valuable 4th level spell slot.
Seriously Fateless; you are going massively out your way to pretty dishonestly argue in favour of something that is objectively overpowered. Why?
Fudging your numbers doesn't make it any weaker in practice, it is massively overpowered compared to literally every other channel divinity, making Twilight Domain hands down, objectively and without question the most powerful domain. Arcana gets a nice ability at 17th level but that's far too little too late, Twilight Domain makes a mockery of Arcana (and most other domains) from 2nd level. None of your inconsistent and wildly inaccurate arguments changes that one simple fact.
But as usual with you I'm sick of going in circles; you're objectively provably wrong yet continuing to make nonsensical arguments that a channel divinity that is simply objectively OP somehow isn't (even though it is)? Why? Why do you care? Why continue? I know it would be a first, but why not just admit you're wrong for once, instead of bending over backwards to say nothing? I know you probably won't answer though, and I won't see it anyway as I'm unsubscribing, as this is just boring and annoying now for no reason.
If you assume... It could potentially do... If the Situation is Right... Under the Right Circumstances... If 4 people get hit....
I'm not Arguing Dishonestly. Your pushing these kinds of terms literally to their limits.
Even with False Life. you argue from a place that Twilight Sanctuary for certain going to hit 4 people all of the time (not a guarantee you can actually make). you don't talk single person numbers, Or double person numbers despite the high likelihood of them. You only talk in Twilight Sanctuary Numbers of 4 or more and over many rounds (another guarantee you can't actually make). While ignoring the Damage that you'd have to take to get those protections. Nor do you Prove that False Life is good for casting at 4th level. You just imply that because your one that deigns to use it and use it in that way that you have an Implied Authority to say it's good. You don't acknowledge that you might be making a sub par choice. But your own argument in favor of Twilight Sanctuary is certainly suggesting it's a sub par choice that your making when it comes to False Life. You Only Argue from a Position that You use it on your Sorcerer so it must be Good and because it must be good because you use it then Twilight Sanctuary must be OP and Broken because it's better. You refuse any possibility that something you use isn't necessarily good and your just comparing a good thing against a bad thing. This is a disingenuous arguing style and comparison on multiple fronts. But Certainly. It's me Arguing from a bad place and not you.
Your the Ones Arguing Dishonestly and you won't even admit it. Your doing everything you can to make these special situations seem like they are normal reality. Or that Reality is different than it is. Again Prove it's OP. Prove it is doing something that can't equally just be done by other means just as simply.
yet Again your doing A bunch of Math that relies on This perfect scenario of multiple people getting hurt every turn like you can guarantee that. And your ignoring the damage that they would all take to get that protection and not listing it. Or how much that Damage add's up to over the same 10 rounds (you might note that it is at least as high as the damage you block and at many levels it's much more).
This is an impressive level of dishonesty and bad faith arguing to prove your point. Your Sick of Going in Circles but you wont' prove your point. I haven't fudged my math. I've actually argued against fudged Math and Disengenuous gains from this ability. But it's me that has a problem with how powerful it is. Not the people making up number's not showing their math, not showing the full results, Not able to fill anything in or actually refute anything. Just repeat again and again the same faulty Sales Tactics over and over again. My Number's Arent' fudged, at best they are mildly rounded and that's it. I've made it clear when I'm using even the simplest stupidest tactics and that there is more available to the creatures we're discussing. Yet Repeatedly I get treated like that's all the monsters can do as some kind of Ultimate Hole in my argument and then when I show what else the creature can do you all just jump back to this argument that I'm bending over backwards and defending a point that isn't objectively true.
Again I'm going to say it. Prove that Twilight Sanctuary is doing something that is New and OP like you Claim. Otherwise it's time to step back and realize that your position is wrong. Anecdotal Subjective Comparison doesn't cut it. Even your remarks about how it's so much better than all other Channel Divinities is just Anecdotal and Subjective. Prove it's actually better. Prove that it outdoes all combat ability Channel Divinity Abilities and how it is just plain better than Those that do non-combat stuff like Forge or Knowledge (and if the answer is you ignore that pillar of play that's not the games fault). Prove that the Defensive Ability is better than an ability like Grave's Channel Ability that forces a creature to take Double Damage without a crit, and in fact stack with a crit, Because if Offense is so much stronger like you claim, Then an ability like this needs Definitive proof how it's being so massively outdone since it can turn a 60 damage hit into a 120, or even a 240 damage single hit.
It's time to start putting your facts on the table instead of claiming facts but not actually have any. Your even misrepresenting me on what is going on with Arcana, yet Again.
Quit Just Saying it's So much Better, That's just your Opinion. Prove it's Better. Prove my numbers wrong. Nobody has proven my numbers wrong. At best you try to add onto my numbers while ignoring all the possible other factors. You haven't Proved me Objectively Wrong. Get down into the Trenches and do the Work and finally prove it.
It doesn't just Lag behind by a few points to your False Life Casting at 4th level. It lags behind by more than a level of casting.
No it doesn't; if you assume five party members then at 9th level you're getting 20-23 THP out of False Life, for Twilight Sanctuary you're getting 10-15 per player per round; that's 50-75 per round, or 250-375 over a five round encounter, and all it costs is a single use of a short rest ability (of which you have two uses by this point), rather than a valuable 4th level spell slot.
Seriously Fateless; you are going massively out your way to pretty dishonestly argue in favour of something that is objectively overpowered. Why?
Fudging your numbers doesn't make it any weaker in practice, it is massively overpowered compared to literally every other channel divinity, making Twilight Domain hands down, objectively and without question the most powerful domain. Arcana gets a nice ability at 17th level but that's far too little too late, Twilight Domain makes a mockery of Arcana (and most other domains) from 2nd level. None of your inconsistent and wildly inaccurate arguments changes that one simple fact.
But as usual with you I'm sick of going in circles; you're objectively provably wrong yet continuing to make nonsensical arguments that a channel divinity that is simply objectively OP somehow isn't (even though it is)? Why? Why do you care? Why continue? I know it would be a first, but why not just admit you're wrong for once, instead of bending over backwards to say nothing? I know you probably won't answer though, and I won't see it anyway as I'm unsubscribing, as this is just boring and annoying now for no reason.
If you assume... It could potentially do... If the Situation is Right... Under the Right Circumstances... If 4 people get hit....
I'm not Arguing Dishonestly. Your pushing these kinds of terms literally to their limits.
Even with False Life. you argue from a place that Twilight Sanctuary for certain going to hit 4 people all of the time (not a guarantee you can actually make). you don't talk single person numbers, Or double person numbers despite the high likelihood of them. You only talk in Twilight Sanctuary Numbers of 4 or more and over many rounds (another guarantee you can't actually make). While ignoring the Damage that you'd have to take to get those protections. Nor do you Prove that False Life is good for casting at 4th level. You just imply that because your one that deigns to use it and use it in that way that you have an Implied Authority to say it's good. You don't acknowledge that you might be making a sub par choice. But your own argument in favor of Twilight Sanctuary is certainly suggesting it's a sub par choice that your making when it comes to False Life. You Only Argue from a Position that You use it on your Sorcerer so it must be Good and because it must be good because you use it then Twilight Sanctuary must be OP and Broken because it's better. You refuse any possibility that something you use isn't necessarily good and your just comparing a good thing against a bad thing. This is a disingenuous arguing style and comparison on multiple fronts. But Certainly. It's me Arguing from a bad place and not you.
Your the Ones Arguing Dishonestly and you won't even admit it. Your doing everything you can to make these special situations seem like they are normal reality. Or that Reality is different than it is. Again Prove it's OP. Prove it is doing something that can't equally just be done by other means just as simply.
yet Again your doing A bunch of Math that relies on This perfect scenario of multiple people getting hurt every turn like you can guarantee that. And your ignoring the damage that they would all take to get that protection and not listing it. Or how much that Damage add's up to over the same 10 rounds (you might note that it is at least as high as the damage you block and at many levels it's much more).
This is an impressive level of dishonesty and bad faith arguing to prove your point. Your Sick of Going in Circles but you wont' prove your point. I haven't fudged my math. I've actually argued against fudged Math and Disengenuous gains from this ability. But it's me that has a problem with how powerful it is. Not the people making up number's not showing their math, not showing the full results, Not able to fill anything in or actually refute anything. Just repeat again and again the same faulty Sales Tactics over and over again. My Number's Arent' fudged, at best they are mildly rounded and that's it. I've made it clear when I'm using even the simplest stupidest tactics and that there is more available to the creatures we're discussing. Yet Repeatedly I get treated like that's all the monsters can do as some kind of Ultimate Hole in my argument and then when I show what else the creature can do you all just jump back to this argument that I'm bending over backwards and defending a point that isn't objectively true.
Again I'm going to say it. Prove that Twilight Sanctuary is doing something that is New and OP like you Claim. Otherwise it's time to step back and realize that your position is wrong. Anecdotal Subjective Comparison doesn't cut it. Even your remarks about how it's so much better than all other Channel Divinities is just Anecdotal and Subjective. Prove it's actually better. Prove that it outdoes all combat ability Channel Divinity Abilities and how it is just plain better than Those that do non-combat stuff like Forge or Knowledge (and if the answer is you ignore that pillar of play that's not the games fault). Prove that the Defensive Ability is better than an ability like Grave's Channel Ability that forces a creature to take Double Damage without a crit, and in fact stack with a crit, Because if Offense is so much stronger like you claim, Then an ability like this needs Definitive proof how it's being so massively outdone since it can turn a 60 damage hit into a 120, or even a 240 damage single hit.
It's time to start putting your facts on the table instead of claiming facts but not actually have any. Your even misrepresenting me on what is going on with Arcana, yet Again.
Quit Just Saying it's So much Better, That's just your Opinion. Prove it's Better. Prove my numbers wrong. Nobody has proven my numbers wrong. At best you try to add onto my numbers while ignoring all the possible other factors. You haven't Proved me Objectively Wrong. Get down into the Trenches and do the Work and finally prove it.
They have? Literally 5 different people have but you then post a small book that makes no sense.
First of All. Focus Fire is just one basic tactic that even PC's use all the time. Calling it a non-valid tactic is entirely disengenuous.
It is a perfectly valid tactic. I don't think anyone said it was "non-valid". What is being said is that even if the enemies are focus firing the amount of THP TS provides is still exceptionally higher than a single action should probably provide. At Level 2 that's still 55 THP even if the enemy "focus fires" at one guy the whole time. What other Level 2 ability does anything close to that? And it still gave everyone else THP even if they're not getting used in this particular fight, so the rest of the party stays protected all day.
Why are not not argueing that the Protection cannon is OP too?
Fun fact: I have.
And for the Same Reasons as Twlight Sanctuary? You can apply the same logic to it that your applying to Twlight Sanctuary.
Precisely.
What difference in it's Operation is not forcing DM's to rethink their enemy encounters and Adjusting CR for this ability?
What difference? Well, the artificer's cannon is a pale shadow compared to twilight sanctuary. TS is everything the cannon is but magnified. And I think the cannon is overtuned! Sanctuary is vastly more powerful than even that.
Where in your Black and white, works or it doesn't and no in between Logic Style that your using against me repeatedly to justify your own Personal Subjective Conclusion that it's OP turn against protection Cannon and make you Claim that Protection Cannon is Not OP and isn't doing the same thing as Twilight Sanctuary? I really want to know.
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Because Yuo know what. I'm done Giving Examples where your thinking doesn't work. I've given dozens of them and just been accused of not staying on Point. If you can't answer these simple questions. Your Entire Premise is faulty. That's all there is to it.
I have time. Lets break down the differences. Sure.
If your Excuse is simply the 10' then your Premise is faulty.
This is part of it, sure. 30' radius allows you to consistently maneuver yourself into getting every or most members of your party a fairly regular amount of time while only a 10' radius makes that significantly less likely.
Just look at number of squares covered. Cannon covers 12 squares. Sanctuary covers 96.
You're far more likely to be in sanctuary than in cannon's range. Far more likely.
If it's that it doesn't scale as well? Your Premise is faulty because for the levels that most people play which is an argument that comes up again and again, Protection Cannon actually does as good or better numbers for most levels.
Show your math? Here is mine, lets go with a tryhard Artificer who studies all the time and is dedicated to getting Int up asap:
L2: TS wins: Avg 5.5 vs 0
L3: Assume 16 Int Artificer 6.5 vs 7.5.
L4: Arti bumps to 18. 7.5 vs 8.5
L5: 8.5 vs 8.5 tied again.
L6: 9.5 vs 8.5. TS winning.
L7: 10.5 v 8.5
L8: Arti to 20 Int: 11.5 v 9.5 (this is where he stops advancing, btw)
L9+ The TS continues to dunk on the cannon.
So IF an artificer focuses all in on Int, then they'll have a +1 avg THP at levels 3 and 4. They tie at L5. And do less THP at all other levels.
It's even Faulty if your Argument is because it's gotten at level 2. the Protection cannon is gotten at level 3. That is not a big difference. it's still low level and it's still usable for most of your career.
It is a factor, but not the biggest one in the world.
The First Use of it also doesn't cost you anything more than an Action to pull it out. If Your Argument is because it requires your bonus action each turn to use, then if your answer is not proving difinitively that the Artificer has something better to do with it's bonus action on Every turn as a default then your argument is Faulty.
The fact it requires a BA each turn is fairly significant. Twilight Sanctuary has no such requirement.
This argument that giving up your bonus action every round is somehow a trivial thing is... wild.
And don't even bother with the combinability with other abilities argument. Because not only does it work on both. But it's a faulty premise to begin with because Pretty much all defensive stuff has at least some combinability,
I agree. There are a set number of defensive strategies that work well together and effectively act as a force multiplier with one another. Introducing readily available AOE THP adds a new category to these stackable defenses and changes the power dynamic of the game. They're both OP. The cannon has enough restrictions in place to curtail its worst offenses most of the time. But TS is egregiously OP.
And many of them are often doing more heavy lifting when combined with THP than THP is. Increases to AC, Resistances, Aid Spells, Cover, and even save proficiency/modifiers. All of it has always combined. The THP of twilight Sanctuary is not even remotely new in this regard. Come up with Something Better because your not actually proving a point here since I never said that Twilight Sanctuary does nothing.
That's not how force multiplier work. They increase each other's effect. By having multiple categories of defenses, you can more effectively reduce incoming damage%. THP is a force multiplier with all existing options. Not only is it compatible and and even complementary with all other types, it is actually the missing piece that allows you to fully nullify incoming damage entirely.
Have resistance? Half damage. Save? Half damage. Save and resist?? Still a quarter. But have a few THP too? Boom. Immortal. You take no damage.
I have always said it is usable, Just not as usable as Advertised. And that is exactly it. It is not as usable as Advertised and it doesn't force Entirely remaking encounters. The most it does is force DM's to actually run encounters instead of running meat sack enemies, Which they should be doing anyway. The Bear Totem Barbarian makes them do this anyway with it's rediculous amount of resistances. So Twlight Sanctuary isn't new in that regard either, and that came with the PHB. Your Just looking at Bear Totem 2.0 and that's it.
I made big the thing you're simultaneously openly admitting and also ignoring. DMs must change their encounters to challenge a group with a twilight cleric in them. Bear Totem barbarians still take damage when hit. Bear Totem Barbarians in a group with a Twilight Cleric are basically unbillable and do not take almost any damage ever.
At L3 they have the ability to basically straight up soak the first ~14 points of damage per turn. Thereafter they only still take half. You turned an otherwise tough PC into an immortal for any appropriately balance encounter for L3 players when the cleric joined the mix.
How? Lets look at a 16 con Bear Barbarian. He's got 34 HP. Assuming raging and not-psychic damage so has resistance going. Time til dies: TTD. Incoming damage per round: IDPR.
14 IDPR: 5 TTD. (if he is hit for 14 damage each round he dies in 5 rounds)
18 IDPR: 4 TTD.
24 IDPR: 3 TTD.
34 IDPR: 2 TTD.
68 IDPR: 1 TTD.
So we can see here this bruiser can be dropped if he takes enough damage. Sure, that's a lot of damage, but it can be done. Now lets look at the same calculations but add in the L3 twilight cleric's THP effect.
14 IDPR: 15 TTD. (if he is hit for 14 damage each round he takes no damage while TS remains then normal afterwards)
18 IDPR: 12 TTD.
24 IDPR: 7 TTD.
34 IDPR: 4 TTD.
68 IDPR: 2 TTD.
In all cases he survives significantly longer than without TS. And in the vast majority of actual level appropriate challenges will have taken absolutely zero damage. Even in especially dangerous encounters that could have otherwise dropped your... bear totem barbarian who focused on con... in 3 rounds.... adding twilight sanctuary extends his survival out to 7 rounds.
Basically, from "he died" to "he's fine but needs a cure spell or two". Oh and we all level up because that's a crazy amount of xp from that fight.
You want it to be any more than that and you want to it to actually be objectively OP. Prove it with more than just Hyperbollic math and arguments that don't actually refute me of "Well it still does something and that makes it powerful!" Something Nobody here has actually done. It's time for you to prove the Trivialization instead of just claiming it or having it ride on the back of other Defensive Abilities.
The ability, in practice, makes encounters trivialized. If a DM makes an encounter and doesn't know a Twilight Cleric is showing up at the table. That encounter will be trivial and not dangerous for the party. Every time.
I've shown not just the math of what Twilight Sanctuary Blocks under even optimal conditions but also the amount of damage the party takes making it work. The Intake Damage without other Defensive Factors is higher than the damage it blocks at most levels, Except at levels 2 and 3 and perhaps 4 where it's most obviously front loaded and most other things are frontloaded too. Taking 100 and 200 and 300 damage a turn just so you can block 50 or 100 is not a good conversion rate for OP'ness. When Not standing in the way is as Effective as your OP ability, Even if you cannot guarantee it on every turn, Then your ability is probably not OP no matter how you Swing the Cat in the Crowded room.
What?
Because you can't guarantee having Twilight Sanctuary up either. There are lots of ways to incapacitate the Cleric without draining all of their hp. There are times you won't have it available. And if you can't prove it's supposed capability without these things being true. It's time to accept that perhaps the perception of the ability your pushing isn't true either and should be let go.
An ability is only considered OP if there are infinite uses of that ability. Got it thanks. Super logical. If I give PCs the ability to entirely level whole continents that isn't OP if I limit it to once per short rest. Cool.
You're so close. Now add in 23.5 THP per round to the barbarian and you'll realize that he basically doesn't die. That dragon can't kill him. Well, not for a while anyway. A long, unrealistically long while for a combat. You'll have won that combat long, long ago. Instead of 10 rounds, it'd be 30+. I say 30+ because that's all 3 minutes of twilight sanctuary. Only after it fades can the barbarian die at roughly 7 damage a round on average lol.
I want to touch on this special. I'm not so close. your still so incredibly far. If the Dragon wants him Dead. The Dragon has much more damage that he can pump into the Barbarian. Another 60 Damage in fact. The Barbarian's Resistance can deal with that. But your all out of Twlight Sanctuary. But there is an even easier solution. ignore the Barbarian while it's in this state and eat all of his friends. Solves the Immortality issue and gets rid of other threats while the dragon is at it. An easy solution to think of for anybody not solely focused on Twilight Sanctuary. So the Barbarian is doing better. But it's mostly doing better because of it's resistances. Twilight Sanctuary is helping a little. But The Dragon Can even overcome it or choose thta as a reason that the Barbarian isn't worth it until the others are dead. Because the reality is that at 65% (that the barbarian reaches where the warrior did not) It's still going to take a long time for the Barbarian to try and kill the Dragon by itself. Even more if the Dragon gets smart and keeps repositioning every other turn to make the Barbarian run after it. Sure the Dragon's DPS might drop a bit but the Barbarian's drops by a lot. It's just another Easy tactical solution without upping the difficulty of the Dragon. What do you Do now? Keep focusing on making Twlight Sanctuary suck up a bit of damage? Because you'll just end up hoping it trivializes the encounter until your dead. For that matter. What do you do if the Dragon just decides to pick up the Barbarian and fly out of range of Twilight Sanctuary with him? They can do that. They could also pick up the Cleric and move him instead. And what do you do when the Dragon decides that it's lair action to send somebody away for a turn is to be used on the Barbarian? Who's pretty much sure to fail so your immortal barbarian is only around every other turn even if it doesn't fly away? I never said the Barbarian was even close to perfect. I was just showing how it was so much more survivable on it's own regardless of Twilight Sanctuary than Twilight Sanctuary was providing to a non-barbarian. And this should have been obvious given the context that I gave to things. Hell Even the Dragon itself would be blocking more damage for the Barbarian than Twilight Sanctuary would be if it did pick it to send it into the dream realm every other round.
Lots of words to say: TS is still useful and powerful even in battles where it doesn't perform to its fullest.
That really is a big part of what you're missing. The ability is always useful. It always helps. Even in the most abstractly constrained scenarios it still does something helpful. And in most encounters it makes your party immortal. In challenging ones it significantly reduces the HP damage taken throughout the fight and keeps your party going from fight to fight with minimal or no healing resources required.
Have you ever played one of these monsters? Fight after fight after fight, basically zero damage ever taken if I has TS to throw up. No one ever even got close to being in a risky position and all my spells got used for offensive buffs and control, instead of healing or more defense. It honestly feels like there is a swarm of invisible full time healers who are healing everyone immediately every time they take damage.
Just look at some appropriate level encounters for a party of the level you're considering as ask yourself if having the entire party bathed in 3.5+level THP every round would make that encounter significantly easier or not. Most of the time that answer is: yes.
And having a single ability always make most encounters super easy... is problematic.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Even with False Life. you argue from a place that Twilight Sanctuary for certain going to hit 4 people all of the time (not a guarantee you can actually make).
If you have ever played D&D you know you generally play in a party. I can guarantee that my Twilight cleric can and has hit at least 4 players each and every single last time he's used the 30' radius ability that lasts for a minute and radiates from his current position. Without fail. Every time. No question.
yet Again your doing A bunch of Math that relies on This perfect scenario of multiple people getting hurt every turn like you can guarantee that. And your ignoring the damage that they would all take to get that protection and not listing it. Or how much that Damage add's up to over the same 10 rounds (you might note that it is at least as high as the damage you block and at many levels it's much more).
"Multiple people getting hurt every turn." He says. "Perfect scenario" he says. That sounds like a regular ol' 5e combat encounter to me. People get damaged all the time. Often multiple people. AOEs do it basically automatically. Lots of minions leads to it eventually. What sort of games are you playing where multiple people aren't taking damage??
But, I'm a bit offended by this TBH my man. I did a deep dive on "what if a single player gets focus fired" and we went into the nitty gritty of it and you forget all about it already?
Again I'm going to say it. Prove that Twilight Sanctuary is doing something that is New and OP like you Claim.
Nothing creates (10d6+10*level)*#allies THP as only an action. Usable 1/2/3 times per short rest. While also warding against charm and fear effects. It numerically provides more THP in practice than any other ability in the game but it does so in a large easy to apply area and without any follow-up actions necessary leaving the cleric entirely free to continue other cleric stuff. Nothing in the game does anything like this.
The closest is the protect cannon which is objectively less THP, vastly smaller range, and requires the artificers Bonus Action each turn to use. And even this ability is also a smidge too great sometimes. Twilight Sanctuary is a bit too great basically every time.
Even your remarks about how it's so much better than all other Channel Divinities is just Anecdotal and Subjective. Prove it's actually better. Prove that it outdoes all combat ability Channel Divinity Abilities and how it is just plain better than Those that do non-combat stuff like Forge or Knowledge (and if the answer is you ignore that pillar of play that's not the games fault).
... we should all take a breather I think. Catch our breath, get centered, and collect ourselves. We're talking about 5th edition dungeons and dragons, a fantasy role playing game. We're not doing a peer reviewed medical study or a doctoral dissertation.
Prove that the Defensive Ability is better than an ability like Grave's Channel Ability that forces a creature to take Double Damage without a crit, and in fact stack with a crit, Because if Offense is so much stronger like you claim, Then an ability like this needs Definitive proof how it's being so massively outdone since it can turn a 60 damage hit into a 120, or even a 240 damage single hit.
So imagine this scenario: You're the party cleric and you often spend a few of your actions in combat trying to stabilize or otherwise fix a bad situation. Maybe you're tossing out cure wounds or healing word, maybe a sanctuary here or there. From time to time it will fall on your shoulders to stop death from claiming one, or all, of your allies. Occasionally you can squeak in an offensive cast. You get a spiritual weapon going. Or maybe a spiritual guardians. Maybe a bless. But often when people get hurt you're on babysitter duty.
But now imagine you can achieve pre-healing. What if you can use your 1st action to pre-heal everyone. And, now imagine that pre-healing simply refreshes itself each and every turn to all allies who get within even 30' of yourself. What a load off. What an easing of that pressure to use your actions to heal. Not this cleric. We have better things to do with our actions now, now that HP are basically covered with no further effort, action, or bonus action. We can go full tilt into offense.
Quit Just Saying it's So much Better, That's just your Opinion. Prove it's Better. Prove my numbers wrong. Nobody has proven my numbers wrong. At best you try to add onto my numbers while ignoring all the possible other factors. You haven't Proved me Objectively Wrong. Get down into the Trenches and do the Work and finally prove it.
TBH you haven't really proven anything at all with what few numbers you sprinkled around here or there. What ones you have posted don't make much sense. Take the one above. Grave clerics can't turn 60 damage into 240 damage. So you're just posting nonsense numbers. Vulnerability doubles damage, not quadruples it.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
How often does a character critical? Well, if you're a Champion fighter, or a Hexblade it's on a 19 or 20, and if you're a normal character it's a 20. That means there's either a 1 in 10, or a 1 in 20 chance of getting a critical hit on a roll. If a character was somehow capable of rolling 60 damage with a single attack, and if the Grave Cleric was able to cause vulnerability to the weapon type, and the character rolled a critical, then it would do 240 damage... and?
We're comparing a 1 in 10/20 effect from a highly specialized build to a level 2 ability that benefits an entire party without any efforts by the player to optimize it. It just happens and keeps happening until the time limit is up.
One of these things is not like the other.
Nor has any objective, which is to say independent of any personal opinion, argument been coming from the "Twilight Sanctuary is fine as is" side. Objectivity is found in numbers, and numbers for Twilight Sanctuary are easy to produce. Every turn, up to the time limit, it generates "caster level + D6" temporary hit points that the player can choose to accept, if it's higher than their current temporary hit point total (i.e. they've been hit and need to recharge, or they got a better roll than the previous turn) or reject (the roll being lower than their current temporary hit points).
At low levels the feat Heavy Armor Master is considered okay (on a variant human), because at low levels reducing damage from the common physical types by 3 makes a considerable difference. At higher levels it's a waste of time of course, because 3 damage is nothing, but at level 1 and 2 it can extend the durability of a character by a reasonable amount.
At level 2 Twilight Sanctuary is creating a minimum of a 3 THP buffer against all damage, the equivalent of reducing all damage by 3, and it could potentially reduce it by 8. It differs inasmuch as if HAM is used against multiple opponents it could save 3 x the number of attackers damage, while multiple attackers will whittle down the THP pool, but then horde battles are not common at level 2. Unlike HAM though TS is never a bad option. It's good at level 2, it's good at level 20. Even against the biggest monsters in the game the TS protection does something.
And it does this for the expenditure of one action and one "recharges on a short rest" resource. It's a "fire and forget" ability that is never wasted in any combat. It makes every character better, the buffer of HP meaning that characters can spend less time hiding or healing, and more time just whaling the tar out of whoever aroused their wrath. A heavy armour cleric can be in the thick of the fighting, so providing an immediate benefit to the melee fighters who are most likely to be hit, and if an archer or caster is so far behind him that they're out of his Twilight Sanctuary, they're likely far enough back that they won't be a priority target.
That the Artillerist Artificer's Protector Cannon can be considered (at times) to be overpowered, yet is, in almost every practical respect, inferior to Twilight Sanctuary, maxing out at a possible 13 THP within a much smaller area of influence, is one of the true ironies of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
Along with your idea, imagine multiclassing into sorcerer and getting quickened/twinned spell and getting four wishes. a truly powerful combo. but, you need to remember that THP counts as healing, and any healing will revive a dying teammate. For more information about twilight clerics general brokenness, read this: Twilight cleric discussion.
Hear me out Arcane IS the best subclass IN THE GAME but only at 20th level. You effectively have 8 wishes a week and if your DM is REALLY nice. If you lose the ability to cast wish, you might be able to go "Hey God, can I cast wish again?" and boom you can.
Note: this relies on your DM allowing most of this working the way I put it.
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DRAGONS!!!!!!!
I am Dart. I am a little platinum faerie dragon who is a member of the DragonClub (look it up on dnd beyond)
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First of All. Focus Fire is just one basic tactic that even PC's use all the time. Calling it a non-valid tactic is entirely disengenuous.
Also trying to portray the ability as it shouldn't function at all under focus fire is Disengenuous when that was never my argument.
You want another Tactic that hits a party easily through all that supposed protection? A few casters. Just 2 or 3 casters wiling to use AoE and Multiple hit and Area control spells on top of the party just like the party often tries to do to the enemy. Deals quite a bit of damage. It doesn't stop Twiilght Sanctuary from blocking Damage. That's not the point. But it does still in fact cause the party a great deal of threat. At level 5 2 Fireballs is still risking lethality to the entire party even with Twilight Sanctuary active. Even though Twilight Sanctuary blocks 8 damage on average. Fireball on it's own is still doing 16 damage. If even one more Fireball lands in that same turn. Some of your party may die until you get a couple more levels under your belt. Just like fireball is so threatening to your enemies at this level and for 2 or 3 more levels. And having Just one person not in the range of Fireball still saves the same amount of damage as all of Twilight Sanctuary... A DM still has to worry about bombarding your party too fast so that you can't respond to it. With a bog standard spell at it's basic level and hasn't changed. This is a completely different tactic from focused fire to break a twilight Sanctuary party that a DM doesn't have to do anything different.
I shouldn't have to name all the tactics that work though. Since tactics that work against it... or even feed into it but still overwhelm the party are so easy to come up with. if you can't come up with them That doesn't make Twilight Sanctuary OP.
Also, it's completely incorrect that nothing else creates as much THP as Twilight Sanctuary. I already named on in this thread that Makes Twlight Sanctuary a Joke by the white room math that people use for it. In 1/3 of the effective space. But it's not OP for the same reason twilight Sanctuary is not OP. The Protection Cannon of the Artillerist Artificer is capable of pumping out 5400 THP per person if it were able to apply it's THP every turn for it's max duration. That's not an exageration and that is from level 8 onwards. Before Level 8 remove 1 point or 2 points as appropriate to your intelligence. For each point of intelligence mod below 20 subtract 600 points of protection from it. This puts the minimum that it can protect when calculated in the same ways everybody calculates Twilight Sanctuary to say how OP it is to a minimum of 4200 THP per person. This is An order of magnitude of about 15 or so Times better at it's base level than what Twilight Sanctuary can pump out at it's max level. And it does about 20x more output than Twilight Sanctuary at Max ability for Protection Cannon.
So let's really turn things into a party of 4 like you want to do with Twilight Sanctuary. that they are affected all the time and take just the right damage that THP is doing all the work and damage to health is minimual. Your looking at a total of 16,800 THP at a minimum of a party of 4. But certainly nothing else outputs like Twlight Sanctuary at it's 960 THP on average over 4 people for a full minute. Twilight Sanctuary is the only thing that does it.
So why aren't you argueing Protection cannon is OP? Because it doesn't remove frightened or Charm? it's still a single action, But it lasts an Hour. It's still movable with your character because you can carry a tiny cannon in your hand by default. is it the 10' distance of effect? Is that suddenly somehow too small? Because if it is then Where is that line drawn between them that allows one to be OP and the other not? Is it 11' of effect? Or 29 feet of effect? At what point does something that can create 20x more THP in it's perfect optimal scenario Not OP when Twilight Sanctuary is OP for making large amounts of THP?
Why are not not argueing that the Protection cannon is OP too? And for the Same Reasons as Twlight Sanctuary? You can apply the same logic to it that your applying to Twlight Sanctuary. What difference in it's Operation is not forcing DM's to rethink their enemy encounters and Adjusting CR for this ability? Where in your Black and white, works or it doesn't and no in between Logic Style that your using against me repeatedly to justify your own Personal Subjective Conclusion that it's OP turn against protection Cannon and make you Claim that Protection Cannon is Not OP and isn't doing the same thing as Twilight Sanctuary? I really want to know.
Because Yuo know what. I'm done Giving Examples where your thinking doesn't work. I've given dozens of them and just been accused of not staying on Point. If you can't answer these simple questions. Your Entire Premise is faulty. That's all there is to it. If your Excuse is simply the 10' then your Premise is faulty. If it's that it doesn't scale as well? Your Premise is faulty because for the levels that most people play which is an argument that comes up again and again, Protection Cannon actually does as good or better numbers for most levels. It's even Faulty if your Argument is because it's gotten at level 2. the Protection cannon is gotten at level 3. That is not a big difference. it's still low level and it's still usable for most of your career. The First Use of it also doesn't cost you anything more than an Action to pull it out. If Your Argument is because it requires your bonus action each turn to use, then if your answer is not proving difinitively that the Artificer has something better to do with it's bonus action on Every turn as a default then your argument is Faulty.
And don't even bother with the combinability with other abilities argument. Because not only does it work on both. But it's a faulty premise to begin with because Pretty much all defensive stuff has at least some combinability, And many of them are often doing more heavy lifting when combined with THP than THP is. Increases to AC, Resistances, Aid Spells, Cover, and even save proficiency/modifiers. All of it has always combined. The THP of twilight Sanctuary is not even remotely new in this regard. Come up with Something Better because your not actually proving a point here since I never said that Twilight Sanctuary does nothing.
I have always said it is usable, Just not as usable as Advertised. And that is exactly it. It is not as usable as Advertised and it doesn't force Entirely remaking encounters. The most it does is force DM's to actually run encounters instead of running meat sack enemies, Which they should be doing anyway. The Bear Totem Barbarian makes them do this anyway with it's rediculous amount of resistances. So Twlight Sanctuary isn't new in that regard either, and that came with the PHB. Your Just looking at Bear Totem 2.0 and that's it.
You want it to be any more than that and you want to it to actually be objectively OP. Prove it with more than just Hyperbollic math and arguments that don't actually refute me of "Well it still does something and that makes it powerful!" Something Nobody here has actually done. It's time for you to prove the Trivialization instead of just claiming it or having it ride on the back of other Defensive Abilities.
I've shown not just the math of what Twilight Sanctuary Blocks under even optimal conditions but also the amount of damage the party takes making it work. The Intake Damage without other Defensive Factors is higher than the damage it blocks at most levels, Except at levels 2 and 3 and perhaps 4 where it's most obviously front loaded and most other things are frontloaded too. Taking 100 and 200 and 300 damage a turn just so you can block 50 or 100 is not a good conversion rate for OP'ness. When Not standing in the way is as Effective as your OP ability, Even if you cannot guarantee it on every turn, Then your ability is probably not OP no matter how you Swing the Cat in the Crowded room. Because you can't guarantee having Twilight Sanctuary up either. There are lots of ways to incapacitate the Cleric without draining all of their hp. There are times you won't have it available. And if you can't prove it's supposed capability without these things being true. It's time to accept that perhaps the perception of the ability your pushing isn't true either and should be let go.
I want to touch on this special. I'm not so close. your still so incredibly far. If the Dragon wants him Dead. The Dragon has much more damage that he can pump into the Barbarian. Another 60 Damage in fact. The Barbarian's Resistance can deal with that. But your all out of Twlight Sanctuary. But there is an even easier solution. ignore the Barbarian while it's in this state and eat all of his friends. Solves the Immortality issue and gets rid of other threats while the dragon is at it. An easy solution to think of for anybody not solely focused on Twilight Sanctuary. So the Barbarian is doing better. But it's mostly doing better because of it's resistances. Twilight Sanctuary is helping a little. But The Dragon Can even overcome it or choose thta as a reason that the Barbarian isn't worth it until the others are dead. Because the reality is that at 65% (that the barbarian reaches where the warrior did not) It's still going to take a long time for the Barbarian to try and kill the Dragon by itself. Even more if the Dragon gets smart and keeps repositioning every other turn to make the Barbarian run after it. Sure the Dragon's DPS might drop a bit but the Barbarian's drops by a lot. It's just another Easy tactical solution without upping the difficulty of the Dragon. What do you Do now? Keep focusing on making Twlight Sanctuary suck up a bit of damage? Because you'll just end up hoping it trivializes the encounter until your dead. For that matter. What do you do if the Dragon just decides to pick up the Barbarian and fly out of range of Twilight Sanctuary with him? They can do that. They could also pick up the Cleric and move him instead. And what do you do when the Dragon decides that it's lair action to send somebody away for a turn is to be used on the Barbarian? Who's pretty much sure to fail so your immortal barbarian is only around every other turn even if it doesn't fly away? I never said the Barbarian was even close to perfect. I was just showing how it was so much more survivable on it's own regardless of Twilight Sanctuary than Twilight Sanctuary was providing to a non-barbarian. And this should have been obvious given the context that I gave to things. Hell Even the Dragon itself would be blocking more damage for the Barbarian than Twilight Sanctuary would be if it did pick it to send it into the dream realm every other round.
No it doesn't; if you assume five party members then at 9th level you're getting 20-23 THP out of False Life, for Twilight Sanctuary you're getting 10-15 per player per round; that's 50-75 per round, or 250-375 over a five round encounter, and all it costs is a single use of a short rest ability (of which you have two uses by this point), rather than a valuable 4th level spell slot.
Seriously Fateless; you are going massively out your way to pretty dishonestly argue in favour of something that is objectively overpowered. Why?
Fudging your numbers doesn't make it any weaker in practice, it is massively overpowered compared to literally every other channel divinity, making Twilight Domain hands down, objectively and without question the most powerful domain. Arcana gets a nice ability at 17th level but that's far too little too late, Twilight Domain makes a mockery of Arcana (and most other domains) from 2nd level. None of your inconsistent and wildly inaccurate arguments changes that one simple fact.
But as usual with you I'm sick of going in circles; you're objectively provably wrong yet continuing to make nonsensical arguments that a channel divinity that is simply objectively OP somehow isn't (even though it is)? Why? Why do you care? Why continue? I know it would be a first, but why not just admit you're wrong for once, instead of bending over backwards to say nothing? I know you probably won't answer though, and I won't see it anyway as I'm unsubscribing, as this is just boring and annoying now for no reason.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
He is in a twilight bubble and your arguments (read attacks) are doing no damage. Even with focusing fire it still doesn't matter. Someone tried to frighten them and the bubble just broke it.
If you assume... It could potentially do... If the Situation is Right... Under the Right Circumstances... If 4 people get hit....
I'm not Arguing Dishonestly. Your pushing these kinds of terms literally to their limits.
Even with False Life. you argue from a place that Twilight Sanctuary for certain going to hit 4 people all of the time (not a guarantee you can actually make). you don't talk single person numbers, Or double person numbers despite the high likelihood of them. You only talk in Twilight Sanctuary Numbers of 4 or more and over many rounds (another guarantee you can't actually make). While ignoring the Damage that you'd have to take to get those protections. Nor do you Prove that False Life is good for casting at 4th level. You just imply that because your one that deigns to use it and use it in that way that you have an Implied Authority to say it's good. You don't acknowledge that you might be making a sub par choice. But your own argument in favor of Twilight Sanctuary is certainly suggesting it's a sub par choice that your making when it comes to False Life. You Only Argue from a Position that You use it on your Sorcerer so it must be Good and because it must be good because you use it then Twilight Sanctuary must be OP and Broken because it's better. You refuse any possibility that something you use isn't necessarily good and your just comparing a good thing against a bad thing. This is a disingenuous arguing style and comparison on multiple fronts. But Certainly. It's me Arguing from a bad place and not you.
Your the Ones Arguing Dishonestly and you won't even admit it. Your doing everything you can to make these special situations seem like they are normal reality. Or that Reality is different than it is. Again Prove it's OP. Prove it is doing something that can't equally just be done by other means just as simply.
yet Again your doing A bunch of Math that relies on This perfect scenario of multiple people getting hurt every turn like you can guarantee that. And your ignoring the damage that they would all take to get that protection and not listing it. Or how much that Damage add's up to over the same 10 rounds (you might note that it is at least as high as the damage you block and at many levels it's much more).
This is an impressive level of dishonesty and bad faith arguing to prove your point. Your Sick of Going in Circles but you wont' prove your point. I haven't fudged my math. I've actually argued against fudged Math and Disengenuous gains from this ability. But it's me that has a problem with how powerful it is. Not the people making up number's not showing their math, not showing the full results, Not able to fill anything in or actually refute anything. Just repeat again and again the same faulty Sales Tactics over and over again. My Number's Arent' fudged, at best they are mildly rounded and that's it. I've made it clear when I'm using even the simplest stupidest tactics and that there is more available to the creatures we're discussing. Yet Repeatedly I get treated like that's all the monsters can do as some kind of Ultimate Hole in my argument and then when I show what else the creature can do you all just jump back to this argument that I'm bending over backwards and defending a point that isn't objectively true.
Again I'm going to say it. Prove that Twilight Sanctuary is doing something that is New and OP like you Claim. Otherwise it's time to step back and realize that your position is wrong. Anecdotal Subjective Comparison doesn't cut it. Even your remarks about how it's so much better than all other Channel Divinities is just Anecdotal and Subjective. Prove it's actually better. Prove that it outdoes all combat ability Channel Divinity Abilities and how it is just plain better than Those that do non-combat stuff like Forge or Knowledge (and if the answer is you ignore that pillar of play that's not the games fault). Prove that the Defensive Ability is better than an ability like Grave's Channel Ability that forces a creature to take Double Damage without a crit, and in fact stack with a crit, Because if Offense is so much stronger like you claim, Then an ability like this needs Definitive proof how it's being so massively outdone since it can turn a 60 damage hit into a 120, or even a 240 damage single hit.
It's time to start putting your facts on the table instead of claiming facts but not actually have any. Your even misrepresenting me on what is going on with Arcana, yet Again.
Quit Just Saying it's So much Better, That's just your Opinion. Prove it's Better. Prove my numbers wrong. Nobody has proven my numbers wrong. At best you try to add onto my numbers while ignoring all the possible other factors. You haven't Proved me Objectively Wrong. Get down into the Trenches and do the Work and finally prove it.
They have? Literally 5 different people have but you then post a small book that makes no sense.
Overall I guess we will just have to disagree
It is a perfectly valid tactic. I don't think anyone said it was "non-valid". What is being said is that even if the enemies are focus firing the amount of THP TS provides is still exceptionally higher than a single action should probably provide. At Level 2 that's still 55 THP even if the enemy "focus fires" at one guy the whole time. What other Level 2 ability does anything close to that? And it still gave everyone else THP even if they're not getting used in this particular fight, so the rest of the party stays protected all day.
Fun fact: I have.
Precisely.
What difference? Well, the artificer's cannon is a pale shadow compared to twilight sanctuary. TS is everything the cannon is but magnified. And I think the cannon is overtuned! Sanctuary is vastly more powerful than even that.
k
I have time. Lets break down the differences. Sure.
This is part of it, sure. 30' radius allows you to consistently maneuver yourself into getting every or most members of your party a fairly regular amount of time while only a 10' radius makes that significantly less likely.
Just look at number of squares covered. Cannon covers 12 squares. Sanctuary covers 96.
You're far more likely to be in sanctuary than in cannon's range. Far more likely.
Show your math? Here is mine, lets go with a tryhard Artificer who studies all the time and is dedicated to getting Int up asap:
So IF an artificer focuses all in on Int, then they'll have a +1 avg THP at levels 3 and 4. They tie at L5. And do less THP at all other levels.
It is a factor, but not the biggest one in the world.
The fact it requires a BA each turn is fairly significant. Twilight Sanctuary has no such requirement.
This argument that giving up your bonus action every round is somehow a trivial thing is... wild.
I agree. There are a set number of defensive strategies that work well together and effectively act as a force multiplier with one another. Introducing readily available AOE THP adds a new category to these stackable defenses and changes the power dynamic of the game. They're both OP. The cannon has enough restrictions in place to curtail its worst offenses most of the time. But TS is egregiously OP.
That's not how force multiplier work. They increase each other's effect. By having multiple categories of defenses, you can more effectively reduce incoming damage%. THP is a force multiplier with all existing options. Not only is it compatible and and even complementary with all other types, it is actually the missing piece that allows you to fully nullify incoming damage entirely.
Have resistance? Half damage. Save? Half damage. Save and resist?? Still a quarter. But have a few THP too? Boom. Immortal. You take no damage.
I made big the thing you're simultaneously openly admitting and also ignoring. DMs must change their encounters to challenge a group with a twilight cleric in them. Bear Totem barbarians still take damage when hit. Bear Totem Barbarians in a group with a Twilight Cleric are basically unbillable and do not take almost any damage ever.
At L3 they have the ability to basically straight up soak the first ~14 points of damage per turn. Thereafter they only still take half. You turned an otherwise tough PC into an immortal for any appropriately balance encounter for L3 players when the cleric joined the mix.
How? Lets look at a 16 con Bear Barbarian. He's got 34 HP. Assuming raging and not-psychic damage so has resistance going. Time til dies: TTD. Incoming damage per round: IDPR.
So we can see here this bruiser can be dropped if he takes enough damage. Sure, that's a lot of damage, but it can be done. Now lets look at the same calculations but add in the L3 twilight cleric's THP effect.
In all cases he survives significantly longer than without TS. And in the vast majority of actual level appropriate challenges will have taken absolutely zero damage. Even in especially dangerous encounters that could have otherwise dropped your... bear totem barbarian who focused on con... in 3 rounds.... adding twilight sanctuary extends his survival out to 7 rounds.
Basically, from "he died" to "he's fine but needs a cure spell or two". Oh and we all level up because that's a crazy amount of xp from that fight.
The ability, in practice, makes encounters trivialized. If a DM makes an encounter and doesn't know a Twilight Cleric is showing up at the table. That encounter will be trivial and not dangerous for the party. Every time.
What?
An ability is only considered OP if there are infinite uses of that ability. Got it thanks. Super logical. If I give PCs the ability to entirely level whole continents that isn't OP if I limit it to once per short rest. Cool.
Lots of words to say: TS is still useful and powerful even in battles where it doesn't perform to its fullest.
That really is a big part of what you're missing. The ability is always useful. It always helps. Even in the most abstractly constrained scenarios it still does something helpful. And in most encounters it makes your party immortal. In challenging ones it significantly reduces the HP damage taken throughout the fight and keeps your party going from fight to fight with minimal or no healing resources required.
Have you ever played one of these monsters? Fight after fight after fight, basically zero damage ever taken if I has TS to throw up. No one ever even got close to being in a risky position and all my spells got used for offensive buffs and control, instead of healing or more defense. It honestly feels like there is a swarm of invisible full time healers who are healing everyone immediately every time they take damage.
Just look at some appropriate level encounters for a party of the level you're considering as ask yourself if having the entire party bathed in 3.5+level THP every round would make that encounter significantly easier or not. Most of the time that answer is: yes.
And having a single ability always make most encounters super easy... is problematic.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you have ever played D&D you know you generally play in a party. I can guarantee that my Twilight cleric can and has hit at least 4 players each and every single last time he's used the 30' radius ability that lasts for a minute and radiates from his current position. Without fail. Every time. No question.
"Multiple people getting hurt every turn." He says. "Perfect scenario" he says. That sounds like a regular ol' 5e combat encounter to me. People get damaged all the time. Often multiple people. AOEs do it basically automatically. Lots of minions leads to it eventually. What sort of games are you playing where multiple people aren't taking damage??
But, I'm a bit offended by this TBH my man. I did a deep dive on "what if a single player gets focus fired" and we went into the nitty gritty of it and you forget all about it already?
Nothing creates (10d6+10*level)*#allies THP as only an action. Usable 1/2/3 times per short rest. While also warding against charm and fear effects. It numerically provides more THP in practice than any other ability in the game but it does so in a large easy to apply area and without any follow-up actions necessary leaving the cleric entirely free to continue other cleric stuff. Nothing in the game does anything like this.
The closest is the protect cannon which is objectively less THP, vastly smaller range, and requires the artificers Bonus Action each turn to use. And even this ability is also a smidge too great sometimes. Twilight Sanctuary is a bit too great basically every time.
... we should all take a breather I think. Catch our breath, get centered, and collect ourselves. We're talking about 5th edition dungeons and dragons, a fantasy role playing game. We're not doing a peer reviewed medical study or a doctoral dissertation.
So imagine this scenario: You're the party cleric and you often spend a few of your actions in combat trying to stabilize or otherwise fix a bad situation. Maybe you're tossing out cure wounds or healing word, maybe a sanctuary here or there. From time to time it will fall on your shoulders to stop death from claiming one, or all, of your allies. Occasionally you can squeak in an offensive cast. You get a spiritual weapon going. Or maybe a spiritual guardians. Maybe a bless. But often when people get hurt you're on babysitter duty.
But now imagine you can achieve pre-healing. What if you can use your 1st action to pre-heal everyone. And, now imagine that pre-healing simply refreshes itself each and every turn to all allies who get within even 30' of yourself. What a load off. What an easing of that pressure to use your actions to heal. Not this cleric. We have better things to do with our actions now, now that HP are basically covered with no further effort, action, or bonus action. We can go full tilt into offense.
TBH you haven't really proven anything at all with what few numbers you sprinkled around here or there. What ones you have posted don't make much sense. Take the one above. Grave clerics can't turn 60 damage into 240 damage. So you're just posting nonsense numbers. Vulnerability doubles damage, not quadruples it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
How often does a character critical? Well, if you're a Champion fighter, or a Hexblade it's on a 19 or 20, and if you're a normal character it's a 20. That means there's either a 1 in 10, or a 1 in 20 chance of getting a critical hit on a roll. If a character was somehow capable of rolling 60 damage with a single attack, and if the Grave Cleric was able to cause vulnerability to the weapon type, and the character rolled a critical, then it would do 240 damage... and?
We're comparing a 1 in 10/20 effect from a highly specialized build to a level 2 ability that benefits an entire party without any efforts by the player to optimize it. It just happens and keeps happening until the time limit is up.
One of these things is not like the other.
Nor has any objective, which is to say independent of any personal opinion, argument been coming from the "Twilight Sanctuary is fine as is" side. Objectivity is found in numbers, and numbers for Twilight Sanctuary are easy to produce. Every turn, up to the time limit, it generates "caster level + D6" temporary hit points that the player can choose to accept, if it's higher than their current temporary hit point total (i.e. they've been hit and need to recharge, or they got a better roll than the previous turn) or reject (the roll being lower than their current temporary hit points).
At low levels the feat Heavy Armor Master is considered okay (on a variant human), because at low levels reducing damage from the common physical types by 3 makes a considerable difference. At higher levels it's a waste of time of course, because 3 damage is nothing, but at level 1 and 2 it can extend the durability of a character by a reasonable amount.
At level 2 Twilight Sanctuary is creating a minimum of a 3 THP buffer against all damage, the equivalent of reducing all damage by 3, and it could potentially reduce it by 8. It differs inasmuch as if HAM is used against multiple opponents it could save 3 x the number of attackers damage, while multiple attackers will whittle down the THP pool, but then horde battles are not common at level 2. Unlike HAM though TS is never a bad option. It's good at level 2, it's good at level 20. Even against the biggest monsters in the game the TS protection does something.
And it does this for the expenditure of one action and one "recharges on a short rest" resource. It's a "fire and forget" ability that is never wasted in any combat. It makes every character better, the buffer of HP meaning that characters can spend less time hiding or healing, and more time just whaling the tar out of whoever aroused their wrath. A heavy armour cleric can be in the thick of the fighting, so providing an immediate benefit to the melee fighters who are most likely to be hit, and if an archer or caster is so far behind him that they're out of his Twilight Sanctuary, they're likely far enough back that they won't be a priority target.
That the Artillerist Artificer's Protector Cannon can be considered (at times) to be overpowered, yet is, in almost every practical respect, inferior to Twilight Sanctuary, maxing out at a possible 13 THP within a much smaller area of influence, is one of the true ironies of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
No. It simply doesn’t work like that.
Hear me out Arcane IS the best subclass IN THE GAME but only at 20th level. You effectively have 8 wishes a week and if your DM is REALLY nice. If you lose the ability to cast wish, you might be able to go "Hey God, can I cast wish again?" and boom you can.
Note: this relies on your DM allowing most of this working the way I put it.
DRAGONS!!!!!!!
I am Dart. I am a little platinum faerie dragon who is a member of the DragonClub (look it up on dnd beyond)