With so many cleric domains, I am having trouble picking one. Currently I am leaning towards twilight or peace domain. I am looking for a mostly support based subclass.
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although I see where you're coming from, arcana is not that powerful, at least in my opinion, compared to twilight or peace domains. (everything below was calculated for a lvl. 20 party)
Yes, arcana clerics get wish and other powerful spells along with what is effectively delayed counterspell along with healing in one action and a banishment spell replacing your CD, but that pales in comparison to twilight's almost guaranteed first turn in combat, 300 ft. Darkvision, 10d6+200 THP along with +2 AC for the whole party (spreading the THP), their pets, summons, and their allies along with party-wide immunity to charm and fear, three times a short rest for a CD.
Arcana also pales against Peace domain's 60 ft. radius in which 6 creatures effectively get +1d4 to every dice roll during combat. That may not sound like much, but have fun with the barbarian rolling 24 on their attack roll against the BBG and the rogue rolling 35 on their dexterity saving throw to dodge fireball.
But, with twilight and peace often banned, I do think arcana is the best option as it basically give the cleric extremely powerful high-level damaging spells.
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By reading this signature, you have agreed to pull 20 cards from the deck of many things. If you lose your soul in any way, it will go to me and the following will happen: When you create your next character, you will become a celestial warlock in servitude to me. Once a month, I require an ounce of empyrean blood. If you fail to deliver on this, all the cards you pulled will converge on you at once.
While I understand the logic of why you say 200 THP, that's overly unrealistic. It's 20 a round.
But in any case, having one cleric is really fantastic. Having two clerics thanks to simulacrum is just bonkers. It's two wishes! Two mass suggestions. It's two of everything else. That's crazy, and crazy enough to contend with giving a person an extra 2.5 on a roll or 20 THP a round.
Along with your idea, imagine multiclassing into sorcerer and getting quickened/twinned spell and getting four wishes. a truly powerful combo. but, you need to remember that THP counts as healing, and any healing will revive a dying teammate. For more information about twilight clerics general brokenness, read this: Twilight cleric discussion.
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By reading this signature, you have agreed to pull 20 cards from the deck of many things. If you lose your soul in any way, it will go to me and the following will happen: When you create your next character, you will become a celestial warlock in servitude to me. Once a month, I require an ounce of empyrean blood. If you fail to deliver on this, all the cards you pulled will converge on you at once.
Along with your idea, imagine multiclassing into sorcerer and getting quickened/twinned spell and getting four wishes. a truly powerful combo. but, you need to remember that THP counts as healing, and any healing will revive a dying teammate. For more information about twilight clerics general brokenness, read this: Twilight cleric discussion.
Temp HP does not count as healing. it's one of several weaknesses that it has. The most it technically does is increase the bugger it takes to outright kill them in one hit. But the higher your level gets the more ludicrous the amount of damage that it takes becomes. To the point that even by level 10 the hp of the Average character is going to be higher than the Damage that they are likely to take from a single attack.
The Twilight Cleric's broken-ness is pretty much unrealistic as Cgarcio stated.
There are threads that talk about how Twilight Sanctuary does not work as advertised and the theory crafting that people use is overblown and requires things like a mass of idiots to do basically certain amounts of damage to all allies in the group to be able to pull off the numbers.
And even the real word example that was posted in your thread. It's written very dramatic. But cut it all down to just the damage numbers. The Barbarian in the party is the only one hit for certain and takes a total of 26 damage (regardless of whether it was healed off or blocked by temphp) in a deadly encounter that the particular party in question wiped out in 2 rounds. A Level 5 Barbarian has an average of 40 HP before even considering a constitution modifier. With just a +2 modifier that is another 10 health on top for a total of 50. And only 2 of those creatures attacked anybody else in the party. with no indication they actually hit. So there is potentially a lot more going on with this party and perhaps a typical deadly encounter is not so deadly. But they would have been just fine regardless of Twilight Sanctuary.
While I understand the logic of why you say 200 THP, that's overly unrealistic. It's 20 a round.
But in any case, having one cleric is really fantastic. Having two clerics thanks to simulacrum is just bonkers. It's two wishes! Two mass suggestions. It's two of everything else. That's crazy, and crazy enough to contend with giving a person an extra 2.5 on a roll or 20 THP a round.
Which you get at what? 17th level? Sorry, but Twilight is fantastic long, long before that. From 1-16, Twilight is definitely better than Arcana and not even close imo. Arcana has the best 17th level feature, but how many campaigns are even going to level 17? A great level 17 feature doesn't make up for a poor Channel Divinity, which you have had for a year, before getting to level 17.
Twilight is the best cleric imo, but Peace gives it a good run. Hard to go wrong with either.
While I understand the logic of why you say 200 THP, that's overly unrealistic. It's 20 a round.
But in any case, having one cleric is really fantastic. Having two clerics thanks to simulacrum is just bonkers. It's two wishes! Two mass suggestions. It's two of everything else. That's crazy, and crazy enough to contend with giving a person an extra 2.5 on a roll or 20 THP a round.
Which you get at what? 17th level? Sorry, but Twilight is fantastic long, long before that. From 1-16, Twilight is definitely better than Arcana and not even close imo. Arcana has the best 17th level feature, but how many campaigns are even going to level 17? A great level 17 feature doesn't make up for a poor Channel Divinity, which you have had for a year, before getting to level 17.
Twilight is the best cleric imo, but Peace gives it a good run. Hard to go wrong with either.
Which is why I add the qualifer of "in AL." In glorious AL, you can deck out your arcana cleric with a strength belt, easily. Now your melee attacks are as accurate as any other martial's. Heck, you can even start at lvl 5 right away! If I built one with a belt, as a v.human/custom lineage (now legal) I could start with warcaster. Warcaster, booming blade, spiritual guardians, AND spirit weapon? BRUH. All the damage. All the power. I can focus solely on bumping WIS until lvl 8 while keeping all my offensive power, and while remaining tanky as fuark. High ACs, high DCs, high damage, high utility. You get it all.
Now, if I were playing a fresh character in a campaign where I'd be stuck at levels for weeks, sure, twilight gives the promised goods right there and then. I'd still rather play something else just for the sake of giving my DM an easier time and to deviate from the thousands of twilight clerics I see on the reg.
I'd say Twilight Domain hands down; you could remove the Twilight Sanctuary divinity and it'd still be one of the better domains, but with that divinity it's pretty broken IMO. Between the UA and Tasha's Cauldron they nerfed the darkvision, but completely ignored the part that mattered, as while super long range darkvision was silly, it's not especially easy to exploit.
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I'd say Twilight Domain hands down; you could remove the Twilight Sanctuary divinity and it'd still be one of the better domains, but with that divinity it's pretty broken IMO. Between the UA and Tasha's Cauldron they nerfed the darkvision, but completely ignored the part that mattered, as while super long range darkvision was silly, it's not especially easy to exploit.
Agreed
The only one that comes close is Peace domain with Emboldening Bond + Bless combo.... This is really crazy in T1 and early T2.
Really breaks the action economy with an effective +5 to attack/save
While I understand the logic of why you say 200 THP, that's overly unrealistic. It's 20 a round.
But in any case, having one cleric is really fantastic. Having two clerics thanks to simulacrum is just bonkers. It's two wishes! Two mass suggestions. It's two of everything else. That's crazy, and crazy enough to contend with giving a person an extra 2.5 on a roll or 20 THP a round.
Which you get at what? 17th level? Sorry, but Twilight is fantastic long, long before that. From 1-16, Twilight is definitely better than Arcana and not even close imo. Arcana has the best 17th level feature, but how many campaigns are even going to level 17? A great level 17 feature doesn't make up for a poor Channel Divinity, which you have had for a year, before getting to level 17.
Twilight is the best cleric imo, but Peace gives it a good run. Hard to go wrong with either.
Which is why I add the qualifer of "in AL." In glorious AL, you can deck out your arcana cleric with a strength belt, easily. Now your melee attacks are as accurate as any other martial's. Heck, you can even start at lvl 5 right away! If I built one with a belt, as a v.human/custom lineage (now legal) I could start with warcaster. Warcaster, booming blade, spiritual guardians, AND spirit weapon? BRUH. All the damage. All the power. I can focus solely on bumping WIS until lvl 8 while keeping all my offensive power, and while remaining tanky as fuark. High ACs, high DCs, high damage, high utility. You get it all.
Now, if I were playing a fresh character in a campaign where I'd be stuck at levels for weeks, sure, twilight gives the promised goods right there and then. I'd still rather play something else just for the sake of giving my DM an easier time and to deviate from the thousands of twilight clerics I see on the reg.
So you are going to be an arcana cleric with a strength belt and wading into melee combat? Other than Booming Blade, the Twilight or any other cleric, could do the same thing with your build i.e. str belt, war caster, custom lineage v. human. A twilight cleric could do this frontline combat while wearing heavy armor though, so better able to survive being up front. And...I think you are underestimating the effect of those temp hp, ticking every single turn from the channel divinity. They don't really matter to the party members not being attacked, but to those in the frontlines, they can be huge. I have a 7th level twilight cleric, who is giving the melee taking damage and avg of 10-11 temp hp every turn. I have also removed the charmed effect from party members with that CD. Damage not taken > damage healed imo.
Odds are going to spend a lot more time at levels 1-16, than you are at 17+. I would still argue for Twilight Cleric being as good for the whole party at levels 17-20, but there is no doubt that Arcana has a great level 17 subclass feature. But up until that 17th level feature, Twilight is way better imo.
Hope all is well, cgarciao. Chat with you later. :)
Btw...does Arcana have the worst channel divinity? It certainly is up there for the worst. If it's not the worst, it's got to be very near the worst! While Twilight is the best channel divinity.
Arcana channel divinity is a turn effect on ONE creature of your choice? One? And the banishment part isn't all that great either, since at level 17, you can banish a CR4 fiend...whom you can probably kill pretty easily at level 17, anyway! At 8th level, it's only a CR1 monster. Seems like a very weak CD.
"Channel Divinity: Arcane Abjuration
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to abjure otherworldly creatures.
As an action, you present your holy symbol, and one celestial, elemental, fey, or fiend of your choice that is within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw, provided that the creature can see or hear you. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly end its move in a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can only use the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action."
Btw...does Arcana have the worst channel divinity? It certainly is up there for the worst. If it's not the worst, it's got to be very near the worst! While Twilight is the best channel divinity.
Arcana channel divinity is a turn effect on ONE creature of your choice? One? And the banishment part isn't all that great either, since at level 17, you can banish a CR4 fiend...whom you can probably kill pretty easily at level 17, anyway! At 8th level, it's only a CR1 monster. Seems like a very weak CD.
"Channel Divinity: Arcane Abjuration
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to abjure otherworldly creatures.
As an action, you present your holy symbol, and one celestial, elemental, fey, or fiend of your choice that is within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw, provided that the creature can see or hear you. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly end its move in a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can only use the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action."
YMMV I think....
On a powerful Elemental it might be a good deal as they have terrible WIS Saves (+0 for most up to CR 5) you could turn one and still cast a BA spell to potentially get a foe away from a downed/badly hurt ally and heal them.
But would be bad for Celestials, Fiends, and Fey as they tend to have better WIS saves.
But something like a Quickling (WIS save +1) would be a decent deal too as you get an annoying enemy to just GTFO while you prepare for their return.
On a powerful Elemental it might be a good deal as they have terrible WIS Saves (+0 for most up to CR 5) you could turn one and still cast a BA spell to potentially get a foe away from a downed/badly hurt ally and heal them.
But would be bad for Celestials, Fiends, and Fey as they tend to have better WIS saves.
But something like a Quickling (WIS save +1) would be a decent deal too as you get an annoying enemy to just GTFO while you prepare for their return.
You can also combo it with Bane and anything else that interferes with saves to make them more likely to fail.
I do generally agree with Torvald99 though; it's just Turn Undead for other creature types, but somewhat worse. Once you get Destroy Undead, Turn Undead can be used to wade into a horde and nuke it from within, whereas Arcane Abjuration only affects one creature and all of its effects are purely temporary. On the other hand, it actually can affect Fey, Fiends etc. unlike Turn Undead, so maybe that's a moot point (turning one is better than not being able to turn any), and maybe it's the versatility that is the trade off (you can affect several enemy types, not just one), plus it's basically a free Banishment-lite. But it just feels a lot like a copy/paste that was made somehow worse than what it was copy/pasted from, as it's just as possible to face hordes of Fey/Fiends etc. (Imps and so-on), so an equivalent mass banish would be really handy; why is it that Undead get all the most powerful tools for fighting them, and what if the party doesn't have a Cleric/Paladin? Makes undead a weirdly difficult enemy type to include.
I'd prefer something more interesting though personally, like something that makes it harder and harder for the target to pass saves, e.g- each time they pass they get an added -1 to the next save, so you could brute force banish a tougher enemy if you and your party can keep forcing it to take saves. Either that or they could have done with a second Channel Divinity option that can be used more generally.
To be clear though, I still like Arcana Domain; I really like being able to dispel using Healing Word, though it's somewhat niche (only relevant when there are enemy casters or spell-based traps), but it's a "free" dispel (costs a healing spell you were probably going to use anyway), and the added spells at 17th level are sweet (if you ever get that far). In terms of power though I'd say it's not one of the stronger sub-classes, but it has some nice utility and lets you build some interesting non-standard clerics, plus cleric is a good base class anyway (doesn't really matter how strong a sub-class is).
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On a powerful Elemental it might be a good deal as they have terrible WIS Saves (+0 for most up to CR 5) you could turn one and still cast a BA spell to potentially get a foe away from a downed/badly hurt ally and heal them.
But would be bad for Celestials, Fiends, and Fey as they tend to have better WIS saves.
But something like a Quickling (WIS save +1) would be a decent deal too as you get an annoying enemy to just GTFO while you prepare for their return.
You can also combo it with Bane and anything else that interferes with saves to make them more likely to fail.
I do generally agree with Torvald99 though; it's just Turn Undead for other creature types, but somewhat worse. Once you get Destroy Undead, Turn Undead can be used to wade into a horde and nuke it from within, whereas Arcane Abjuration only affects one creature and all of its effects are purely temporary. On the other hand, it actually can affect Fey, Fiends etc. unlike Turn Undead, so maybe that's a moot point (turning one is better than not being able to turn any), and maybe it's the versatility that is the trade off (you can affect several enemy types, not just one), plus it's basically a free Banishment-lite. But it just feels a lot like a copy/paste that was made somehow worse than what it was copy/pasted from, as it's just as possible to face hordes of Fey/Fiends etc. (Imps and so-on), so an equivalent mass banish would be really handy; why is it that Undead get all the most powerful tools for fighting them, and what if the party doesn't have a Cleric/Paladin? Makes undead a weirdly difficult enemy type to include.
I'd prefer something more interesting though personally, like something that makes it harder and harder for the target to pass saves, e.g- each time they pass they get an added -1 to the next save, so you could brute force banish a tougher enemy if you and your party can keep forcing it to take saves. Either that or they could have done with a second Channel Divinity option that can be used more generally.
To be clear though, I still like Arcana Domain; I really like being able to dispel using Healing Word, though it's somewhat niche (only relevant when there are enemy casters or spell-based traps), but it's a "free" dispel (costs a healing spell you were probably going to use anyway), and the added spells at 17th level are sweet (if you ever get that far). In terms of power though I'd say it's not one of the stronger sub-classes, but it has some nice utility and lets you build some interesting non-standard clerics, plus cleric is a good base class anyway (doesn't really matter how strong a sub-class is).
Yeah seems like a fairly potent use at levels before you get Banishment (which does target CHA so there is some difference there).
Overall it seems like a decent ability for a short rest. Its just that Twilight came in and really made other CD look a lot shittier by comparison due to how powerful theirs is.
Anyone trying to downplay the absolutely insane amount of THP twilight sanctuary spits out is trying to sell you something.
Each party member is basically soaking ~24 damage.. per round, for free. No concentration required. No further actions needed to refresh or reapply. It just keeps spitting out 21-26 THP to everyone, every round, for a minute. Three times per...short...rest. Even if you're a barbarian with 20 con that's still roughly 10% of your HP per turn for a minute. It is an absolutely massive buffer. All that and by 17th it's now also granting everyone half cover on top of that. So ~24 THP and +2 AC/Dex saves.
But that isn't even their only good feature. They're all good. Have you seen their spell list? Or their concentration-free flight? The on-demand and freely target-swap-able initiative advantage. The longest range darkvision in the game they can give out to their party? They have no downsides. The have all the tools needed to fight what goes bump in the night.
While I understand the logic of why you say 200 THP, that's overly unrealistic. It's 20 a round.
But in any case, having one cleric is really fantastic. Having two clerics thanks to simulacrum is just bonkers. It's two wishes! Two mass suggestions. It's two of everything else. That's crazy, and crazy enough to contend with giving a person an extra 2.5 on a roll or 20 THP a round.
Which you get at what? 17th level? Sorry, but Twilight is fantastic long, long before that. From 1-16, Twilight is definitely better than Arcana and not even close imo. Arcana has the best 17th level feature, but how many campaigns are even going to level 17? A great level 17 feature doesn't make up for a poor Channel Divinity, which you have had for a year, before getting to level 17.
Twilight is the best cleric imo, but Peace gives it a good run. Hard to go wrong with either.
Which is why I add the qualifer of "in AL." In glorious AL, you can deck out your arcana cleric with a strength belt, easily. Now your melee attacks are as accurate as any other martial's. Heck, you can even start at lvl 5 right away! If I built one with a belt, as a v.human/custom lineage (now legal) I could start with warcaster. Warcaster, booming blade, spiritual guardians, AND spirit weapon? BRUH. All the damage. All the power. I can focus solely on bumping WIS until lvl 8 while keeping all my offensive power, and while remaining tanky as fuark. High ACs, high DCs, high damage, high utility. You get it all.
You... can do pretty much all the same things you list here but with Twilight... or really with any cleric. Twilight, specifically, even have Martial Weapon and Heavy Armor prof.
Now, if I were playing a fresh character in a campaign where I'd be stuck at levels for weeks, sure, twilight gives the promised goods right there and then. I'd still rather play something else just for the sake of giving my DM an easier time and to deviate from the thousands of twilight clerics I see on the reg.
How does this not clue you in on how OP they are??
Twilight is blatant about being broken OP. What's crazy is not everyone is as clued in on the brokenness of Peace though, which is arguably even worse. Moreover, if you've ever seen a party with one of each, it is disgusting. Massive AOE THP AND the party members have huge bonuses AND they can freely swap who takes hits for who while teleporting around. Nuts.
Arcane is great. Don't get me wrong. But it isn't in the same league as these other two. Sure, simulacrums are neat... But, honestly... if the only thing you want is a copy of yourself just get a scroll. Or, better yet, have the Wizard's simulacrum cast simulacrum on you.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Anyone trying to downplay the absolutely insane amount of THP twilight sanctuary spits out is trying to sell you something.
Each party member is basically soaking ~24 damage.. per round, for free. No concentration required. No further actions needed to refresh or reapply. It just keeps spitting out 21-26 THP to everyone, every round, for a minute. Three times per...short...rest. Even if you're a barbarian with 20 con that's still roughly 10% of your HP per turn for a minute. It is an absolutely massive buffer. All that and by 17th it's now also granting everyone half cover on top of that. So ~24 THP and +2 AC/Dex saves.
No. The people that keep pushing this stuff about how much that it's healing in perfect circumstances that often aren't going to actually necessarily happen all of the time in actual play for a variety of reasons are the ones selling something. They are false advertising and upselling the twilight cleric.
Just like this paragraph here.
You cannot guarantee that it is going to actually give every party member anything from round to round. yet you make these claims anyway. Everybody that states how OP it is or how powerful certain healing abilities supposedly are does exactly this. your also using max level numbers which for 99% of the twilight clerics career it is not going to reach. This is another sales tactics. One that in comercials often comes with an asterisk and a fine print of "your experiences may vary" to cover their butts when it doesn't work as advertised from the get go or in all scenario's.
Statements like that for the Barbarian are examples of sales tactics. A level 20 Barbarian which is what your basically implying is decently likely to actually have a 24 Con. Which implies an average of 280hp.
Then there is the convenient rounding up to make it all sound better. Working on the technicality that is pushed of .5 on dice rolls to make it 24 instead of 23 on top of not stating that the numbers that your pushing are max level to begin with and not what is reached for most of the time you play the twilight cleric. Even when playing all the way to level 20.
it also ignores the fact that 24 damage isn't as much as it seems when you get to Max Level. Singular Monsters are often doing more than this in 1 or 2 attacks. (most CR 20+ dragons for example are doing things like 3 attacks that do 15 to 20 damage per strike on average so can be doing 45 to 60 damage a turn just with basic attacks. Which would stop most of the Temp HP from going out to the group and yet still does way more than what is being protected for the one person that is. And this is completely ignoring things like Legendary actions. Many of which can do at least single attack damage all on their own.
So yeah... The Numbers sound great. When you don't look at any of the rest of the context of what's going on or the little intricacies about how Temp HP works, and you all stay within that convenient short range that the power works at, and you all get hit for just the right amount of damage every turn, and not potentially double that per monster on the battlefield. It's great if your just fighting one BBEG and a bunch of minions likely no more than 1/3 or maybe 1/2 it's CR though. As long as they aren't a bunch of spell casters that know AoE's.
But yeah, it's the ones saying it's not OP in practice that are selling something. Despite the fact that it's the OP hype fans using Commissioned Sales Tactics like they need people to buy it because if they just get that one more twilight cleric made somewhere they get to keep their job for the month, and if they can get 5 they get a bonus.
In my campaing twilight sanctuary is very powerfull, but not OP and thats mainly because two changes.
First twilight sanctuary works only those that cleric can see " Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:" -> I ruled so that means you have to some how detect character you are going to give (or not) chosen benefit. (so not around corners and not invisible characters, etc) and temp HP only last when you are inside of it (if you leave it you lose temp HP end of your turn).
Second, and more important was change to dispel magic spell. It works more like its name. It will dispel magic and not just spells -> twilight sanctuary can be dispelled. So can be Blade singer bladesong or any "magic" ability. Even magic items can be temporarely supressed (max 1min and only when directly cast to them. Powerfull magic items or Artifacts are immune). In my experience this has give more tactical choices and more fun encounters.
Anyone trying to downplay the absolutely insane amount of THP twilight sanctuary spits out is trying to sell you something.
Each party member is basically soaking ~24 damage.. per round, for free. No concentration required. No further actions needed to refresh or reapply. It just keeps spitting out 21-26 THP to everyone, every round, for a minute. Three times per...short...rest. Even if you're a barbarian with 20 con that's still roughly 10% of your HP per turn for a minute. It is an absolutely massive buffer. All that and by 17th it's now also granting everyone half cover on top of that. So ~24 THP and +2 AC/Dex saves.
No. The people that keep pushing this stuff about how much that it's healing in perfect circumstances that often aren't going to actually necessarily happen all of the time in actual play for a variety of reasons are the ones selling something. They are false advertising and upselling the twilight cleric.
Just like this paragraph here.
You cannot guarantee that it is going to actually give every party member anything from round to round. yet you make these claims anyway. Everybody that states how OP it is or how powerful certain healing abilities supposedly are does exactly this. your also using max level numbers which for 99% of the twilight clerics career it is not going to reach. This is another sales tactics. One that in comercials often comes with an asterisk and a fine print of "your experiences may vary" to cover their butts when it doesn't work as advertised from the get go or in all scenario's.
Statements like that for the Barbarian are examples of sales tactics. A level 20 Barbarian which is what your basically implying is decently likely to actually have a 24 Con. Which implies an average of 280hp.
Then there is the convenient rounding up to make it all sound better. Working on the technicality that is pushed of .5 on dice rolls to make it 24 instead of 23 on top of not stating that the numbers that your pushing are max level to begin with and not what is reached for most of the time you play the twilight cleric. Even when playing all the way to level 20.
it also ignores the fact that 24 damage isn't as much as it seems when you get to Max Level. Singular Monsters are often doing more than this in 1 or 2 attacks. (most CR 20+ dragons for example are doing things like 3 attacks that do 15 to 20 damage per strike on average so can be doing 45 to 60 damage a turn just with basic attacks. Which would stop most of the Temp HP from going out to the group and yet still does way more than what is being protected for the one person that is. And this is completely ignoring things like Legendary actions. Many of which can do at least single attack damage all on their own.
So yeah... The Numbers sound great. When you don't look at any of the rest of the context of what's going on or the little intricacies about how Temp HP works, and you all stay within that convenient short range that the power works at, and you all get hit for just the right amount of damage every turn, and not potentially double that per monster on the battlefield. It's great if your just fighting one BBEG and a bunch of minions likely no more than 1/3 or maybe 1/2 it's CR though. As long as they aren't a bunch of spell casters that know AoE's.
But yeah, it's the ones saying it's not OP in practice that are selling something. Despite the fact that it's the OP hype fans using Commissioned Sales Tactics like they need people to buy it because if they just get that one more twilight cleric made somewhere they get to keep their job for the month, and if they can get 5 they get a bonus.
The numbers are great and the free nature of it and the action economy is what breaks it.
Action economy is a big deal in balancing features in the game and anything that gets activated as a free action should be heavily scrutinized.
In this case you are giving something away as a free action that outweighs a lot of features that requires a full action or Bonus action and that alone is cause for concern.
The fact you can do this for any number of creatures with free actions is just silly.
Anyone trying to downplay the absolutely insane amount of THP twilight sanctuary spits out is trying to sell you something.
Each party member is basically soaking ~24 damage.. per round, for free. No concentration required. No further actions needed to refresh or reapply. It just keeps spitting out 21-26 THP to everyone, every round, for a minute. Three times per...short...rest. Even if you're a barbarian with 20 con that's still roughly 10% of your HP per turn for a minute. It is an absolutely massive buffer. All that and by 17th it's now also granting everyone half cover on top of that. So ~24 THP and +2 AC/Dex saves.
No. The people that keep pushing this stuff about how much that it's healing in perfect circumstances that often aren't going to actually necessarily happen all of the time in actual play for a variety of reasons are the ones selling something. They are false advertising and upselling the twilight cleric.
Just like this paragraph here.
You cannot guarantee that it is going to actually give every party member anything from round to round. yet you make these claims anyway. Everybody that states how OP it is or how powerful certain healing abilities supposedly are does exactly this. your also using max level numbers which for 99% of the twilight clerics career it is not going to reach. This is another sales tactics. One that in comercials often comes with an asterisk and a fine print of "your experiences may vary" to cover their butts when it doesn't work as advertised from the get go or in all scenario's.
Statements like that for the Barbarian are examples of sales tactics. A level 20 Barbarian which is what your basically implying is decently likely to actually have a 24 Con. Which implies an average of 280hp.
Then there is the convenient rounding up to make it all sound better. Working on the technicality that is pushed of .5 on dice rolls to make it 24 instead of 23 on top of not stating that the numbers that your pushing are max level to begin with and not what is reached for most of the time you play the twilight cleric. Even when playing all the way to level 20.
it also ignores the fact that 24 damage isn't as much as it seems when you get to Max Level. Singular Monsters are often doing more than this in 1 or 2 attacks. (most CR 20+ dragons for example are doing things like 3 attacks that do 15 to 20 damage per strike on average so can be doing 45 to 60 damage a turn just with basic attacks. Which would stop most of the Temp HP from going out to the group and yet still does way more than what is being protected for the one person that is. And this is completely ignoring things like Legendary actions. Many of which can do at least single attack damage all on their own.
So yeah... The Numbers sound great. When you don't look at any of the rest of the context of what's going on or the little intricacies about how Temp HP works, and you all stay within that convenient short range that the power works at, and you all get hit for just the right amount of damage every turn, and not potentially double that per monster on the battlefield. It's great if your just fighting one BBEG and a bunch of minions likely no more than 1/3 or maybe 1/2 it's CR though. As long as they aren't a bunch of spell casters that know AoE's.
But yeah, it's the ones saying it's not OP in practice that are selling something. Despite the fact that it's the OP hype fans using Commissioned Sales Tactics like they need people to buy it because if they just get that one more twilight cleric made somewhere they get to keep their job for the month, and if they can get 5 they get a bonus.
The numbers are great and the free nature of it and the action economy is what breaks it.
Action economy is a big deal in balancing features in the game and anything that gets activated as a free action should be heavily scrutinized.
In this case you are giving something away as a free action that outweighs a lot of features that requires a full action or Bonus action and that alone is cause for concern.
The fact you can do this for any number of creatures with free actions is just silly.
Except that it doesn't outweigh them. People give THP way too much weight to begin with. And now Twilight Sanctuary comes along and uses it as a main mechanic and people are taking that overweighting and making it worse. THP has a lot of faults. It doesn't fix wounds. It can't bring somebody back up from unconcious or the like. And while it's not actually an issue in 5e because things like bleed aren't really a thing in 5e, it wouldn't stop such from doing their damage either because it's not healing.
People keep talking about it like it's a cure spell but it's not. Even Free, since it doesn't stack, It sits there not doing anything unless you are getting hit. it's only advantages over resistance which does something similar is that it's not limited to half a hit so if damage rolls really low you can get lucky enough to block a lot of it (or your hoping all of it). But at the same time if the damage is high or rolls high on more reasonable ranges then it doesn't even cover half as a trade off. But it's also basically single use, where as Resistance is repeatedly useful, the other Tradeoff compared to Resistance is that Resistance is limited in when it functions, While THP is Universal.
There is also this continually pushed perception that Twilight Sanctuary is free. it's not free. It uses an ability with limited uses but also limited reasons to use it usually to make it work. But it does still cost something and it is not free. And it uses an Action to set up.
Now this is not to say that it's not strong. it is a Strong Ability, Particularly when you compare it to some of the other Channel Divinity Abilities which tend to be either somewhat niche, fairly weak, or just downright boring in what they do (such as War Domain it feels bad because it's boring and it's very limited use despite the fact that it almost guarantee's an attack hits when used). But Twilight Sanctuary is not anything game breakingly strong. There are things like Paladin Aura's that give some of the same kinds of protections. Or spells that might be single target but last longer, for a much more common resource. There are even a few spells that are High Level on Paladin's that are slowly making their way into other things that can cast them much sooner.
Look at Oath of the Ancients as an Example. They don't get Aura of Warding Until Level 7, But considering that they are half caster's that's not that different from level 2 or 3 on a full Caster like a Cleric. But they get a Permanent Resistance effect to all magic damage from spells. It's more limited in Focus because it is a resistance and it's range is shorter. But it's Permanent. Not even an Action Required or a limited use Ability to activate it. But it's overall damage mitigation potential is high overall. Particularly considering it's stacked with the default Aura of Protection that Improves saves. And then later Stacks with Outright Immunity to Frightened rather than just the ability to give up the other protections to end it.
Twilight Sanctuary makes some trade offs, And does gain a little extra protection at 17th level to add to it. But it's basically just a scaling paladin aura with a limited duration and each turn the person it covers has to decide how it affects them. Assuming that they meet the conditions where the choice even matters. If they aren't frightened and ending their turn inside of the aura or having taken damage to need new protection points from THP. Then it's not doing a whole lot. And people talking about it being broken always talk in terms like every person in the aura is somehow taking just enough damage to use up the THP on every turn. It's completely possible for them not to be frightened and not to have taken damage or for some reason taken so little damage, or the roll for THP is just that slight bit better that they only gain between 1 and 3 points. So the benefit is way below what people state it as for those people. It's also possible for people to end up outside of the area. Sure a 30' radius is decent sized. But it's hardly all encompassing. Otherwise many AoE spells would be even more dangerous than they already are just on a general level.
And Trust me, Twilight Sanctuary is one thing I wish had shorter answers. But it's more of a nuance conversation.
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With so many cleric domains, I am having trouble picking one. Currently I am leaning towards twilight or peace domain. I am looking for a mostly support based subclass.
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Arcana, hands down. But only if you play AL.
Twilight and Peace are both very powerful, though some might argue in a bad way.
although I see where you're coming from, arcana is not that powerful, at least in my opinion, compared to twilight or peace domains. (everything below was calculated for a lvl. 20 party)
Yes, arcana clerics get wish and other powerful spells along with what is effectively delayed counterspell along with healing in one action and a banishment spell replacing your CD, but that pales in comparison to twilight's almost guaranteed first turn in combat, 300 ft. Darkvision, 10d6+200 THP along with +2 AC for the whole party (spreading the THP), their pets, summons, and their allies along with party-wide immunity to charm and fear, three times a short rest for a CD.
Arcana also pales against Peace domain's 60 ft. radius in which 6 creatures effectively get +1d4 to every dice roll during combat. That may not sound like much, but have fun with the barbarian rolling 24 on their attack roll against the BBG and the rogue rolling 35 on their dexterity saving throw to dodge fireball.
But, with twilight and peace often banned, I do think arcana is the best option as it basically give the cleric extremely powerful high-level damaging spells.
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While I understand the logic of why you say 200 THP, that's overly unrealistic. It's 20 a round.
But in any case, having one cleric is really fantastic. Having two clerics thanks to simulacrum is just bonkers. It's two wishes! Two mass suggestions. It's two of everything else. That's crazy, and crazy enough to contend with giving a person an extra 2.5 on a roll or 20 THP a round.
Along with your idea, imagine multiclassing into sorcerer and getting quickened/twinned spell and getting four wishes. a truly powerful combo. but, you need to remember that THP counts as healing, and any healing will revive a dying teammate. For more information about twilight clerics general brokenness, read this: Twilight cleric discussion.
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Temp HP does not count as healing. it's one of several weaknesses that it has. The most it technically does is increase the bugger it takes to outright kill them in one hit. But the higher your level gets the more ludicrous the amount of damage that it takes becomes. To the point that even by level 10 the hp of the Average character is going to be higher than the Damage that they are likely to take from a single attack.
The Twilight Cleric's broken-ness is pretty much unrealistic as Cgarcio stated.
There are threads that talk about how Twilight Sanctuary does not work as advertised and the theory crafting that people use is overblown and requires things like a mass of idiots to do basically certain amounts of damage to all allies in the group to be able to pull off the numbers.
And even the real word example that was posted in your thread. It's written very dramatic. But cut it all down to just the damage numbers. The Barbarian in the party is the only one hit for certain and takes a total of 26 damage (regardless of whether it was healed off or blocked by temphp) in a deadly encounter that the particular party in question wiped out in 2 rounds. A Level 5 Barbarian has an average of 40 HP before even considering a constitution modifier. With just a +2 modifier that is another 10 health on top for a total of 50. And only 2 of those creatures attacked anybody else in the party. with no indication they actually hit. So there is potentially a lot more going on with this party and perhaps a typical deadly encounter is not so deadly. But they would have been just fine regardless of Twilight Sanctuary.
Which you get at what? 17th level? Sorry, but Twilight is fantastic long, long before that. From 1-16, Twilight is definitely better than Arcana and not even close imo. Arcana has the best 17th level feature, but how many campaigns are even going to level 17? A great level 17 feature doesn't make up for a poor Channel Divinity, which you have had for a year, before getting to level 17.
Twilight is the best cleric imo, but Peace gives it a good run. Hard to go wrong with either.
Which is why I add the qualifer of "in AL." In glorious AL, you can deck out your arcana cleric with a strength belt, easily. Now your melee attacks are as accurate as any other martial's. Heck, you can even start at lvl 5 right away! If I built one with a belt, as a v.human/custom lineage (now legal) I could start with warcaster. Warcaster, booming blade, spiritual guardians, AND spirit weapon? BRUH. All the damage. All the power. I can focus solely on bumping WIS until lvl 8 while keeping all my offensive power, and while remaining tanky as fuark. High ACs, high DCs, high damage, high utility. You get it all.
Now, if I were playing a fresh character in a campaign where I'd be stuck at levels for weeks, sure, twilight gives the promised goods right there and then. I'd still rather play something else just for the sake of giving my DM an easier time and to deviate from the thousands of twilight clerics I see on the reg.
I'd say Twilight Domain hands down; you could remove the Twilight Sanctuary divinity and it'd still be one of the better domains, but with that divinity it's pretty broken IMO. Between the UA and Tasha's Cauldron they nerfed the darkvision, but completely ignored the part that mattered, as while super long range darkvision was silly, it's not especially easy to exploit.
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Agreed
The only one that comes close is Peace domain with Emboldening Bond + Bless combo.... This is really crazy in T1 and early T2.
Really breaks the action economy with an effective +5 to attack/save
So you are going to be an arcana cleric with a strength belt and wading into melee combat? Other than Booming Blade, the Twilight or any other cleric, could do the same thing with your build i.e. str belt, war caster, custom lineage v. human. A twilight cleric could do this frontline combat while wearing heavy armor though, so better able to survive being up front. And...I think you are underestimating the effect of those temp hp, ticking every single turn from the channel divinity. They don't really matter to the party members not being attacked, but to those in the frontlines, they can be huge. I have a 7th level twilight cleric, who is giving the melee taking damage and avg of 10-11 temp hp every turn. I have also removed the charmed effect from party members with that CD. Damage not taken > damage healed imo.
Odds are going to spend a lot more time at levels 1-16, than you are at 17+. I would still argue for Twilight Cleric being as good for the whole party at levels 17-20, but there is no doubt that Arcana has a great level 17 subclass feature. But up until that 17th level feature, Twilight is way better imo.
Hope all is well, cgarciao. Chat with you later. :)
Btw...does Arcana have the worst channel divinity? It certainly is up there for the worst. If it's not the worst, it's got to be very near the worst! While Twilight is the best channel divinity.
Arcana channel divinity is a turn effect on ONE creature of your choice? One? And the banishment part isn't all that great either, since at level 17, you can banish a CR4 fiend...whom you can probably kill pretty easily at level 17, anyway! At 8th level, it's only a CR1 monster. Seems like a very weak CD.
"Channel Divinity: Arcane Abjuration
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to abjure otherworldly creatures.
As an action, you present your holy symbol, and one celestial, elemental, fey, or fiend of your choice that is within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw, provided that the creature can see or hear you. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly end its move in a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can only use the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action."
YMMV I think....
On a powerful Elemental it might be a good deal as they have terrible WIS Saves (+0 for most up to CR 5) you could turn one and still cast a BA spell to potentially get a foe away from a downed/badly hurt ally and heal them.
But would be bad for Celestials, Fiends, and Fey as they tend to have better WIS saves.
But something like a Quickling (WIS save +1) would be a decent deal too as you get an annoying enemy to just GTFO while you prepare for their return.
You can also combo it with Bane and anything else that interferes with saves to make them more likely to fail.
I do generally agree with Torvald99 though; it's just Turn Undead for other creature types, but somewhat worse. Once you get Destroy Undead, Turn Undead can be used to wade into a horde and nuke it from within, whereas Arcane Abjuration only affects one creature and all of its effects are purely temporary. On the other hand, it actually can affect Fey, Fiends etc. unlike Turn Undead, so maybe that's a moot point (turning one is better than not being able to turn any), and maybe it's the versatility that is the trade off (you can affect several enemy types, not just one), plus it's basically a free Banishment-lite. But it just feels a lot like a copy/paste that was made somehow worse than what it was copy/pasted from, as it's just as possible to face hordes of Fey/Fiends etc. (Imps and so-on), so an equivalent mass banish would be really handy; why is it that Undead get all the most powerful tools for fighting them, and what if the party doesn't have a Cleric/Paladin? Makes undead a weirdly difficult enemy type to include.
I'd prefer something more interesting though personally, like something that makes it harder and harder for the target to pass saves, e.g- each time they pass they get an added -1 to the next save, so you could brute force banish a tougher enemy if you and your party can keep forcing it to take saves. Either that or they could have done with a second Channel Divinity option that can be used more generally.
To be clear though, I still like Arcana Domain; I really like being able to dispel using Healing Word, though it's somewhat niche (only relevant when there are enemy casters or spell-based traps), but it's a "free" dispel (costs a healing spell you were probably going to use anyway), and the added spells at 17th level are sweet (if you ever get that far). In terms of power though I'd say it's not one of the stronger sub-classes, but it has some nice utility and lets you build some interesting non-standard clerics, plus cleric is a good base class anyway (doesn't really matter how strong a sub-class is).
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Yeah seems like a fairly potent use at levels before you get Banishment (which does target CHA so there is some difference there).
Overall it seems like a decent ability for a short rest. Its just that Twilight came in and really made other CD look a lot shittier by comparison due to how powerful theirs is.
Anyone trying to downplay the absolutely insane amount of THP twilight sanctuary spits out is trying to sell you something.
Each party member is basically soaking ~24 damage.. per round, for free. No concentration required. No further actions needed to refresh or reapply. It just keeps spitting out 21-26 THP to everyone, every round, for a minute. Three times per...short...rest. Even if you're a barbarian with 20 con that's still roughly 10% of your HP per turn for a minute. It is an absolutely massive buffer. All that and by 17th it's now also granting everyone half cover on top of that. So ~24 THP and +2 AC/Dex saves.
But that isn't even their only good feature. They're all good. Have you seen their spell list? Or their concentration-free flight? The on-demand and freely target-swap-able initiative advantage. The longest range darkvision in the game they can give out to their party? They have no downsides. The have all the tools needed to fight what goes bump in the night.
You... can do pretty much all the same things you list here but with Twilight... or really with any cleric. Twilight, specifically, even have Martial Weapon and Heavy Armor prof.
How does this not clue you in on how OP they are??
Twilight is blatant about being broken OP. What's crazy is not everyone is as clued in on the brokenness of Peace though, which is arguably even worse. Moreover, if you've ever seen a party with one of each, it is disgusting. Massive AOE THP AND the party members have huge bonuses AND they can freely swap who takes hits for who while teleporting around. Nuts.
Arcane is great. Don't get me wrong. But it isn't in the same league as these other two. Sure, simulacrums are neat... But, honestly... if the only thing you want is a copy of yourself just get a scroll. Or, better yet, have the Wizard's simulacrum cast simulacrum on you.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No. The people that keep pushing this stuff about how much that it's healing in perfect circumstances that often aren't going to actually necessarily happen all of the time in actual play for a variety of reasons are the ones selling something. They are false advertising and upselling the twilight cleric.
Just like this paragraph here.
You cannot guarantee that it is going to actually give every party member anything from round to round. yet you make these claims anyway. Everybody that states how OP it is or how powerful certain healing abilities supposedly are does exactly this. your also using max level numbers which for 99% of the twilight clerics career it is not going to reach. This is another sales tactics. One that in comercials often comes with an asterisk and a fine print of "your experiences may vary" to cover their butts when it doesn't work as advertised from the get go or in all scenario's.
Statements like that for the Barbarian are examples of sales tactics. A level 20 Barbarian which is what your basically implying is decently likely to actually have a 24 Con. Which implies an average of 280hp.
Then there is the convenient rounding up to make it all sound better. Working on the technicality that is pushed of .5 on dice rolls to make it 24 instead of 23 on top of not stating that the numbers that your pushing are max level to begin with and not what is reached for most of the time you play the twilight cleric. Even when playing all the way to level 20.
it also ignores the fact that 24 damage isn't as much as it seems when you get to Max Level. Singular Monsters are often doing more than this in 1 or 2 attacks. (most CR 20+ dragons for example are doing things like 3 attacks that do 15 to 20 damage per strike on average so can be doing 45 to 60 damage a turn just with basic attacks. Which would stop most of the Temp HP from going out to the group and yet still does way more than what is being protected for the one person that is. And this is completely ignoring things like Legendary actions. Many of which can do at least single attack damage all on their own.
So yeah... The Numbers sound great. When you don't look at any of the rest of the context of what's going on or the little intricacies about how Temp HP works, and you all stay within that convenient short range that the power works at, and you all get hit for just the right amount of damage every turn, and not potentially double that per monster on the battlefield. It's great if your just fighting one BBEG and a bunch of minions likely no more than 1/3 or maybe 1/2 it's CR though. As long as they aren't a bunch of spell casters that know AoE's.
But yeah, it's the ones saying it's not OP in practice that are selling something. Despite the fact that it's the OP hype fans using Commissioned Sales Tactics like they need people to buy it because if they just get that one more twilight cleric made somewhere they get to keep their job for the month, and if they can get 5 they get a bonus.
In my campaing twilight sanctuary is very powerfull, but not OP and thats mainly because two changes.
First twilight sanctuary works only those that cleric can see " Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:" -> I ruled so that means you have to some how detect character you are going to give (or not) chosen benefit. (so not around corners and not invisible characters, etc) and temp HP only last when you are inside of it (if you leave it you lose temp HP end of your turn).
Second, and more important was change to dispel magic spell. It works more like its name. It will dispel magic and not just spells -> twilight sanctuary can be dispelled. So can be Blade singer bladesong or any "magic" ability. Even magic items can be temporarely supressed (max 1min and only when directly cast to them. Powerfull magic items or Artifacts are immune). In my experience this has give more tactical choices and more fun encounters.
The numbers are great and the free nature of it and the action economy is what breaks it.
Action economy is a big deal in balancing features in the game and anything that gets activated as a free action should be heavily scrutinized.
In this case you are giving something away as a free action that outweighs a lot of features that requires a full action or Bonus action and that alone is cause for concern.
The fact you can do this for any number of creatures with free actions is just silly.
Except that it doesn't outweigh them. People give THP way too much weight to begin with. And now Twilight Sanctuary comes along and uses it as a main mechanic and people are taking that overweighting and making it worse. THP has a lot of faults. It doesn't fix wounds. It can't bring somebody back up from unconcious or the like. And while it's not actually an issue in 5e because things like bleed aren't really a thing in 5e, it wouldn't stop such from doing their damage either because it's not healing.
People keep talking about it like it's a cure spell but it's not. Even Free, since it doesn't stack, It sits there not doing anything unless you are getting hit. it's only advantages over resistance which does something similar is that it's not limited to half a hit so if damage rolls really low you can get lucky enough to block a lot of it (or your hoping all of it). But at the same time if the damage is high or rolls high on more reasonable ranges then it doesn't even cover half as a trade off. But it's also basically single use, where as Resistance is repeatedly useful, the other Tradeoff compared to Resistance is that Resistance is limited in when it functions, While THP is Universal.
There is also this continually pushed perception that Twilight Sanctuary is free. it's not free. It uses an ability with limited uses but also limited reasons to use it usually to make it work. But it does still cost something and it is not free. And it uses an Action to set up.
Now this is not to say that it's not strong. it is a Strong Ability, Particularly when you compare it to some of the other Channel Divinity Abilities which tend to be either somewhat niche, fairly weak, or just downright boring in what they do (such as War Domain it feels bad because it's boring and it's very limited use despite the fact that it almost guarantee's an attack hits when used). But Twilight Sanctuary is not anything game breakingly strong. There are things like Paladin Aura's that give some of the same kinds of protections. Or spells that might be single target but last longer, for a much more common resource. There are even a few spells that are High Level on Paladin's that are slowly making their way into other things that can cast them much sooner.
Look at Oath of the Ancients as an Example. They don't get Aura of Warding Until Level 7, But considering that they are half caster's that's not that different from level 2 or 3 on a full Caster like a Cleric. But they get a Permanent Resistance effect to all magic damage from spells. It's more limited in Focus because it is a resistance and it's range is shorter. But it's Permanent. Not even an Action Required or a limited use Ability to activate it. But it's overall damage mitigation potential is high overall. Particularly considering it's stacked with the default Aura of Protection that Improves saves. And then later Stacks with Outright Immunity to Frightened rather than just the ability to give up the other protections to end it.
Twilight Sanctuary makes some trade offs, And does gain a little extra protection at 17th level to add to it. But it's basically just a scaling paladin aura with a limited duration and each turn the person it covers has to decide how it affects them. Assuming that they meet the conditions where the choice even matters. If they aren't frightened and ending their turn inside of the aura or having taken damage to need new protection points from THP. Then it's not doing a whole lot. And people talking about it being broken always talk in terms like every person in the aura is somehow taking just enough damage to use up the THP on every turn. It's completely possible for them not to be frightened and not to have taken damage or for some reason taken so little damage, or the roll for THP is just that slight bit better that they only gain between 1 and 3 points. So the benefit is way below what people state it as for those people. It's also possible for people to end up outside of the area. Sure a 30' radius is decent sized. But it's hardly all encompassing. Otherwise many AoE spells would be even more dangerous than they already are just on a general level.
And Trust me, Twilight Sanctuary is one thing I wish had shorter answers. But it's more of a nuance conversation.