A little bit of background: I play a once a month session at the library for 5e (2014 rules). I had wanted to use a Twilight, but as the librarian only had the PhB, and a few others, but not Tasha's I couldn't use one. However, the Library recent got Tasha's, Xanthar's, and a few others, so we were able to make many changes, and I was able to "convert" my L1 Light Cleric to L3...the DM decided to up us to L3, after so much time in L1, with only a semi-regular group of players.
I want to use it "as is," without nerfs. With all the people that come and go--many having little to no experience with D&D--I felt I should try to see what I can do, to help balance my Cleric, while still being able to reign it in, so that the librarian DM isn't overwhelmed (anymore than she already is!). I'm somewhat knowledgeable, but don't have a lot of experience, so am seeking some help from the community.
Combat has actually been a smaller part of our sessions: maybe a 40/40/20 split (social interactions, exploration or puzzle solving, combat). So, as combat has played a much smaller role in our campaign, that has played a part in no one character (so far) really "taking over."
From what I've been able to read, and if I understand properly, if a NPC hits the Cleric with something like web, entangle, or hold person, this will incapacitate the cleric if they fail their saving throw, or immobilize them. Since we meet once a month, we often have more than 8 people in the library sessions, so often split the party, which also plays into the 30 foot limit.
Some other ideas:
- At higher levels (IDK if anything at our L3 party would encounter would have it), would Dispel Magic or anti-magic fields work on it?
- Having stealthy enemies (or some with teleport?) come in, to attack the cleric. Example: Orc Red Fang of Shargaas has Shargaas's Sight and Veil of Shargaas, for lower levels. That lets them see in magical darkness, and cast it, and while Eyes of the Night see 300 ft in darkness, it does not say magical darkness. This would force the Cleric to fight at disadvantage, while they have advantage.
The last sort of goes with targeting the cleric, to force them to use other resources, break any concentration spells (eg, Bless), and such. Also, if someone is at 0HP, the THP won't have them rise, so if a PC is down, and there's nothing available (eg, healing word or potions), TS won't help.
Other ideas, to help with my Twilight Cleric for the DM?
Dispel magic won’t do anything, as it isn’t a spell. An anti-magic field would work, but that’s not going to happen at low levels.
I am DMing a game with a twilight cleric using ‘24 rules, and it hasn’t been a problem. I know the internet will point to a white room where the numbers say it is a problem, but since I never plan combats in white rooms, that’s not been my experience. Fights are still tense. People still go down in combat.
But if you’re looking for counters, besides, as you mention, being more than 30 feet away. Being around corners will block line of sight, and so block the effect.
Fight undead, so they use channel divinity for turning undead.
Have multiple fights, so they tun out of uses.
Have them engulfed. We had a fight against giant toads, and once the cleric was swallowed, they were no longer able to hand out thp.
Charm or frighten them, so the cleric needs to choose whether to end the effect or give out the thp.
Dispel magic won’t do anything, as it isn’t a spell. An anti-magic field would work, but that’s not going to happen at low levels.
I am DMing a game with a twilight cleric using ‘24 rules, and it hasn’t been a problem. I know the internet will point to a white room where the numbers say it is a problem, but since I never plan combats in white rooms, that’s not been my experience. Fights are still tense. People still go down in combat.
But if you’re looking for counters, besides, as you mention, being more than 30 feet away. Being around corners will block line of sight, and so block the effect.
Fight undead, so they use channel divinity for turning undead.
Have multiple fights, so they tun out of uses.
Have them engulfed. We had a fight against giant toads, and once the cleric was swallowed, they were no longer able to hand out thp.
Charm or frighten them, so the cleric needs to choose whether to end the effect or give out the thp.
TY for your feedback. I think I saw you reply on a different thread regarding the Twilight Cleric, when I was going through the forum. Those are some good ideas, and I'm adding them to my list.
For the current lower levels, I'm planning to RP him to act OP, thinking he can handle anything with TS, so that he doesn't have healing spells prepared, especially to help anyone who may drop to 0HP. ATM, he's focused on spells like bless, sanctuary, guiding bolt, and Spiritual Weapon. I've played a few games, where the lower levels, especially 1-5, people can often drop to 0, so expect that to happen. Being I've been the main cleric, I'm looking at it as a good RP opportunity, and to learn to be able to balance prepared spells, given the limited number of slots available.
I also, don't think it should be a huge problem, especially knowing that it could be a problem, and working on addressing the possibilities, to make sure that everyone has fun, and that when we do have combat, we don't blow through it.
Also, in our last session, in a different part of the encounter, our Paladin lost his saving throw, and is now petrified...so using spells/features which the TS can't help is another implementation to use, as well, to keep things on edge. ^_^
If I was in a party with a cleric and found out they didn't prepare any healing spells, I'd be ticked off in real life and as a PC. That's going to be a rough discovery for whoever's PC goes down in a fight. Hope you;'re packing Spare the Dying, at least.
Yeah. One thing that’s important to know, metagaming a bit here, is temp hp can’t bring someone up from 0. If a PC drops, and you have no healing options to get them back up, it’s bad news. The PC is dying, and other folks are using actions to try and stabilize them, but even if they do stabilize, they’re still out of the fight. You’ll quickly get overwhelmed in terms of action economy.
The problem with the Twilight Cleric is that the Sanctuary is powerful enough that it has to be managed by the DM. A single power that makes each combat all about one player is not an ideal situation. So here are the ways I have seen it not becoming a problem: 1. More encounters. Its really not that many uses, and 1 minute is not long enough to stretch it into multiple encounters. 2. Prepare boss enemies for being able to manage it, caster bosses need to be able to incapacitate or AOE clustered enemies. 3. Add enemies who can restrain and move PC's
It is also annoying to use it on the end of everyone else's turns. That's actually more problematic than anything else about it. We homebrewed it to trigger at the start of the cleric's turn and it was a great change. It is a subtle nerf, pushing the effect's activation out a little further in the round, but also streamlines the function and accounting, making it all happen at once with one roll. And, finally, keeps people's turns about them, not about you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
A little bit of background: I play a once a month session at the library for 5e (2014 rules). I had wanted to use a Twilight, but as the librarian only had the PhB, and a few others, but not Tasha's I couldn't use one. However, the Library recent got Tasha's, Xanthar's, and a few others, so we were able to make many changes, and I was able to "convert" my L1 Light Cleric to L3...the DM decided to up us to L3, after so much time in L1, with only a semi-regular group of players.
I want to use it "as is," without nerfs. With all the people that come and go--many having little to no experience with D&D--I felt I should try to see what I can do, to help balance my Cleric, while still being able to reign it in, so that the librarian DM isn't overwhelmed (anymore than she already is!). I'm somewhat knowledgeable, but don't have a lot of experience, so am seeking some help from the community.
Combat has actually been a smaller part of our sessions: maybe a 40/40/20 split (social interactions, exploration or puzzle solving, combat). So, as combat has played a much smaller role in our campaign, that has played a part in no one character (so far) really "taking over."
From what I've been able to read, and if I understand properly, if a NPC hits the Cleric with something like web, entangle, or hold person, this will incapacitate the cleric if they fail their saving throw, or immobilize them. Since we meet once a month, we often have more than 8 people in the library sessions, so often split the party, which also plays into the 30 foot limit.
Some other ideas:
- At higher levels (IDK if anything at our L3 party would encounter would have it), would Dispel Magic or anti-magic fields work on it?
- Having stealthy enemies (or some with teleport?) come in, to attack the cleric. Example: Orc Red Fang of Shargaas has Shargaas's Sight and Veil of Shargaas, for lower levels. That lets them see in magical darkness, and cast it, and while Eyes of the Night see 300 ft in darkness, it does not say magical darkness. This would force the Cleric to fight at disadvantage, while they have advantage.
The last sort of goes with targeting the cleric, to force them to use other resources, break any concentration spells (eg, Bless), and such. Also, if someone is at 0HP, the THP won't have them rise, so if a PC is down, and there's nothing available (eg, healing word or potions), TS won't help.
Other ideas, to help with my Twilight Cleric for the DM?
Dispel magic won’t do anything, as it isn’t a spell. An anti-magic field would work, but that’s not going to happen at low levels.
I am DMing a game with a twilight cleric using ‘24 rules, and it hasn’t been a problem. I know the internet will point to a white room where the numbers say it is a problem, but since I never plan combats in white rooms, that’s not been my experience. Fights are still tense. People still go down in combat.
But if you’re looking for counters, besides, as you mention, being more than 30 feet away. Being around corners will block line of sight, and so block the effect.
Fight undead, so they use channel divinity for turning undead.
Have multiple fights, so they tun out of uses.
Have them engulfed. We had a fight against giant toads, and once the cleric was swallowed, they were no longer able to hand out thp.
Charm or frighten them, so the cleric needs to choose whether to end the effect or give out the thp.
TY for your feedback. I think I saw you reply on a different thread regarding the Twilight Cleric, when I was going through the forum. Those are some good ideas, and I'm adding them to my list.
For the current lower levels, I'm planning to RP him to act OP, thinking he can handle anything with TS, so that he doesn't have healing spells prepared, especially to help anyone who may drop to 0HP. ATM, he's focused on spells like bless, sanctuary, guiding bolt, and Spiritual Weapon. I've played a few games, where the lower levels, especially 1-5, people can often drop to 0, so expect that to happen. Being I've been the main cleric, I'm looking at it as a good RP opportunity, and to learn to be able to balance prepared spells, given the limited number of slots available.
I also, don't think it should be a huge problem, especially knowing that it could be a problem, and working on addressing the possibilities, to make sure that everyone has fun, and that when we do have combat, we don't blow through it.
Also, in our last session, in a different part of the encounter, our Paladin lost his saving throw, and is now petrified...so using spells/features which the TS can't help is another implementation to use, as well, to keep things on edge. ^_^
If I was in a party with a cleric and found out they didn't prepare any healing spells, I'd be ticked off in real life and as a PC. That's going to be a rough discovery for whoever's PC goes down in a fight. Hope you;'re packing Spare the Dying, at least.
Yeah. One thing that’s important to know, metagaming a bit here, is temp hp can’t bring someone up from 0. If a PC drops, and you have no healing options to get them back up, it’s bad news. The PC is dying, and other folks are using actions to try and stabilize them, but even if they do stabilize, they’re still out of the fight. You’ll quickly get overwhelmed in terms of action economy.
The problem with the Twilight Cleric is that the Sanctuary is powerful enough that it has to be managed by the DM. A single power that makes each combat all about one player is not an ideal situation. So here are the ways I have seen it not becoming a problem:
1. More encounters. Its really not that many uses, and 1 minute is not long enough to stretch it into multiple encounters.
2. Prepare boss enemies for being able to manage it, caster bosses need to be able to incapacitate or AOE clustered enemies.
3. Add enemies who can restrain and move PC's
It is also annoying to use it on the end of everyone else's turns. That's actually more problematic than anything else about it. We homebrewed it to trigger at the start of the cleric's turn and it was a great change. It is a subtle nerf, pushing the effect's activation out a little further in the round, but also streamlines the function and accounting, making it all happen at once with one roll. And, finally, keeps people's turns about them, not about you.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Most of the time it changes nothing wether Twillight Sanctuary affect a creature that starts or ends its turn in the sphere.
Very rarely you loose hit points on your turn or are charmed or frightened. More often than not you aren't.
But in the rare event that you would, then yes taking effect at the start may be better.