Yes, without darkvision you're going to need Light.
Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead are decent "save or suck" spells. You probably only want one, not both. Toll the Dead has the higher damage dice, a D12 if they're already injured, but necrotic damage seems to be resisted more often than radiant. Choose what you want.
Guidance is golden. I would not leave home without it. Any time one of your friends wants to "do the thing" bless them with your god's guidance and get a D4 to help them do the thing. Wherever you are, if you're not casting another concentration spell or putting it on someone else, cast guidance on yourself. It even adds to your initiative at the start of combat. It's perfect when you want to make the save to avoid getting squished.
Spare the Dying is situational. Most of the time you'd just cast healing word to get a unconscious party member back in the fight, but what happens if you run out of spell slots? Spare the Dying is a free way to stabilize them until you can do something about their situation. It's definitely at its best used by a Grave Cleric (30 foot range and a bonus action, so it's healing word without the heal) but if you can move to the victim, or have a familiar that can apply it for you, it could be a lifesaver.
If you had darkvision I'd say Guidance, Toll the Dead, and Spare the Dying, but since you don't I'd say take Light instead of Spare the Dying. Grab that one when you next get a cantrip. Thaumaturgy is a fun role play cantrip, so that would be the next one on list of cantrips to get, but you don't get a fifth cantrip until level 10.
I was thinking along these lines. Only one of five characters has Darkvision, so that changes things.
Light
Toll the Dead
Guidance
I have the healing skill, so Spare the Dying is not as critical. I might pick up Sacred Flame or maybe Warding Flare at the next opportunity.
I agree I never take spare the dying. The way I look at it - it is a touch spell so, you can do the same thing with a healer's kit. If spare the dying was ranged (like with a Grave Cleric) it would be a different story
There's not really a "primary healer" role. No one gets enough spell slots to be the primary healer. You and the Paladin will be the two people responsible for healing somebody after they get knocked down to 0 health, but that's about it. You have a very limited number of spell slots, and they're best used for other purposes. Especially a Tempest Cleric. Tempest Clerics are one of the best Area of Effect damage dealers in the entire game because of their channel divinity. Use that when you're casting Thunderwave or Shatter, and you'll do a huge amount of damage. You'll also want to use spell slots for Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and other spells, so it's best to only use a spell slot for Cure Wounds or Healing Word when your ally is down on the ground with 0 health.
There's also no such thing as a Healing skill. Are you talking about the Medicine skill?
You could choose to use a melee weapon as your primary attack and skip doing a ranged spell cantrip. Clerics don't really get good ranged spell cantrips anyways. Your party looks to be a bit melee heavy. If the Rogue is melee, that's 4 out of 5 being melee damage dealers. Still, if you're a Tempest Cleric, it's probably best to be a melee damage dealer.
Guidance and Light are two cantrips you definitely should take. The last cantrip could be Toll the Dead if you want a ranged attack cantrip. Otherwise, Mending or Thaumaturgy are probably the two best choices. You can always take Toll the Dead at level 4 if you feel like the lack of a ranged spell cantrip is a problem.
The point in Toll the Dead, even for a melee character, is to have a useful option when the range can't be closed to get into melee. And yeah, my character will be using Shillelagh to get melee and spells off of one stat. (DM freebie due to a homebrew race).
Overcoming range should be a basic capability of every character in the game. Otherwise you'll be completely ****** in a lot of fights, especially at low level. Why thaumaturgy over a fall back ranged attack option? That seems like a poor choice.
imo, Shillelagh is kind of a trap option. I'd still use toll the dead in melee.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I was thinking along these lines. Only one of five characters has Darkvision, so that changes things.
Light
Toll the Dead
Guidance
I have the healing skill, so Spare the Dying is not as critical. I might pick up Sacred Flame or maybe Warding Flare at the next opportunity.
Hey, your last sentence here got me thinking - Warding Flare is Baseline for the Light Cleric, is that your considered Subclass? If that is the case, I have good news... Light is a Bonus Cantrip for you and you don't need to learn it :-)
So you could start out with
Guidance, Light, Spare the Dying, and your damage choice!
I was thinking along these lines. Only one of five characters has Darkvision, so that changes things.
Light
Toll the Dead
Guidance
I have the healing skill, so Spare the Dying is not as critical. I might pick up Sacred Flame or maybe Warding Flare at the next opportunity.
Hey, your last sentence here got me thinking - Warding Flare is Baseline for the Light Cleric, is that your considered Subclass? If that is the case, I have good news... Light is a Bonus Cantrip for you and you don't need to learn it :-)
So you could start out with
Guidance, Light, Spare the Dying, and your damage choice!
Happy Easter and stay safe!
Light Domain is a good subclass for his party. One of the best things about the Light Domain (quite possibly the best thing) is that they get Fireball as a Domain Spell. Once the Rogue and the Monk in his party reach level 7 they'll both likely take zero damage from any Fireball that you drop on them because of Evasion. Especially if they're within 10ft of the Paladin and get to add his Charisma modifier on top of their proficiency bonus and their Dexterity bonus. Also, the lack of darkvision in the party makes the Light cantrip especially useful as many here have noted.
Also, Warding Flare is ONLY available to Light Clerics, so he can't have that ability unless he chooses to be a Light Domain Cleric.
I was thinking along these lines. Only one of five characters has Darkvision, so that changes things.
Light
Toll the Dead
Guidance
I have the healing skill, so Spare the Dying is not as critical. I might pick up Sacred Flame or maybe Warding Flare at the next opportunity.
This. I generally strongly dislike spare the dying. As others have mentioned Warding Flare is a domain feature of Light Clerics, you can't pick it up without being a light cleric.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
In that case you won't be able to get Warding Flare and will have to take Light by yourself. Guidance and one damage choice should make for a decent setup overall.
Spare the Dying could come in handy especially at early levels, when you still have a really limited amount of spellslots. Considering your group also has a Paladin, you should be fine though.
imo, Shillelagh is kind of a trap option. I'd still use toll the dead in melee.
EDIT: You guys are absolutely correct - I made assumptions about Shillelagh that don't hold up.
Looking at the numbers, I don't see it. At least for the early tiers. In the best case scenario (Tier 2, target already damaged), the output from TtD is only equal to Shillelagh. In all other situations, Shillelagh is better.
Tier 1 Toll the Dead: 1d8, avg. = 4.5 Toll the Dead: 1d12, avg. = 6 Shillelagh: 1d8 + WIS bonus (4), avg. = 7
Tier 2 Toll the Dead: 2d8, avg. = 8.5 Toll the Dead: 2d12, avg. = 12.5 Shillelagh: 2d8 + WIS bonus (4), avg. = 12.5
By level 8 Toll the Dead: 2d8, avg. = 8.5 Toll the Dead: 2d12, avg. = 12.5 Shillelagh: 2d8 + WIS bonus (4), + 1d8 (Divine Strike) avg. = 17
There are other factors to consider. TtD is a save spell doing oft-resisted necrotic damage. Shillelagh enhances regular melee attacks. It's my understanding that attack rolls usually land more often than save-or-suck spells. Of course, by level 8 I suspect this guy will be casting leveled spells more often than using any cantrip, but both options will be good to have.
What's the reasoning behind TtD being a better option?
imo, Shillelagh is kind of a trap option. I'd still use toll the dead in melee.
Looking at the numbers, I don't see it. At least for the early tiers. In the best case scenario (Tier 2, target already damaged), the output from TtD is only equal to Shillelagh. In all other situations, Shillelagh is better.
Tier 1 Toll the Dead: 1d8, avg. = 4.5 Toll the Dead: 1d12, avg. = 6 Shillelagh: 1d8 + WIS bonus (4), avg. = 7
Tier 2 Toll the Dead: 2d8, avg. = 8.5 Toll the Dead: 2d12, avg. = 12.5 Shillelagh: 2d8 + WIS bonus (4), avg. = 12.5
By level 8 Toll the Dead: 2d8, avg. = 8.5 Toll the Dead: 2d12, avg. = 12.5 Shillelagh: 2d8 + WIS bonus (4), + 1d8 (Divine Strike) avg. = 17
There are other factors to consider. TtD is a save spell doing oft-resisted necrotic damage. Shillelagh enhances regular melee attacks. It's my understanding that attack rolls usually land more often than save-or-suck spells. Of course, by level 8 I suspect this guy will be casting leveled spells more often than using any cantrip, but both options will be good to have.
What's the reasoning behind TtD being a better option?
The reason is that Shillelagh is still just 1D8 at tier 2, not 2D8 like you used in your calculations.
Your math shows the heart of it: after level 5, it begins to fall behind. Your chart is also incorrect. Shilelagh does not get 2d8 in tier 2, it does not scale at all. It's still pumping out the same 1d8+4 that it was at level 4. Does tempest have a feature that bumps it up, or are you somehow getting booming blade (perhaps via being half elf) to scale it up? Out of the box, for most users, Shillelagh has no scaling at all.
It's also going to start competing for your bonus action. It takes a bonus action to summon, and that's a round that you aren't attacking with spiritual weapon, and that starts at level 3.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Your math shows the heart of it: after level 5, it begins to fall behind. Your chart is also incorrect. Shilelagh does not get 2d8 in tier 2, it does not scale at all. It's still pumping out the same 1d8+4 that it was at level 4. Does tempest have a feature that bumps it up, or are you somehow getting booming blade (perhaps via being half elf) to scale it up? Out of the box, for most users, Shillelagh has no scaling at all.
It's also going to start competing for your bonus action. It takes a bonus action to summon, and that's a round that you aren't attacking with spiritual weapon, and that starts at level 3.
At level 8 the Tempest Cleric gets Divine Strike allowing them to add D8 thunder damage to their melee attack once a turn (since they only have one attack that's generally moot), which increases to 2D8 at level 14. They are probably the best melee Cleric.
For Tempest Cleric I can see the benefit of Shillelagh in order to make them solely wisdom dependent.
That said, at level 14 Shillelagh will be doing D8+5+2D8 = 18.5 average. Toll the Dead will be doing 3D12 (if target is already injured) for 19.5 average on a failed Wisdom save. Given that's a DC18 difficulty that's pretty good odds.
EDIT: Rereading the question, no, Shillelagh never does 2D8 damage on its own. Damage cantrips are better.
What spells you pick are flavored to your character, and there's no real wrong answer to cantrip choice. However indulge me for a moment as I make a case for Spare the Dying.
First...when a party member is dying, every other option requires expending resources. Healing requires spell slots, a full healers kit, a potion, an ability, or something else you will have in a limited amount. Except for Spare the Dying...a cantrip with no components. Spare the Dying is a spell you don't ever need until you absolutely need it because you're out of everything.
Second...if you have two people dying at the same time, Spare the Dying can help you fix that problem in one round. Bonus action healing word and action spare the dying and now you've bought yourself more time, instead of fretting about another round of death saving throws.
Third...sometimes you want to stop someone from dying but don't WANT to spend the limited use options. There are plenty of NPCs that would be useful or necessary to keep alive but maybe you don't want to spend resources on, like a prisoner you're trying to capture or an NPC you are trying to save but who has nothing to help with the fight.
Next time you're searching for 500gp diamonds remember there are other tools you can use before it gets to that point...
My first cleric in 5e. Hit me with your starting cantrip best choices.
My character DOES NOT have Dark Vision, but DOES have the healing skill. Projected to be a pure cleric, with a fair amount of melee interaction.
Sacred Flame, Spare the Dying, Guidance cover the bases pretty well, light is pretty useful too.
Yes, without darkvision you're going to need Light.
Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead are decent "save or suck" spells. You probably only want one, not both. Toll the Dead has the higher damage dice, a D12 if they're already injured, but necrotic damage seems to be resisted more often than radiant. Choose what you want.
Guidance is golden. I would not leave home without it. Any time one of your friends wants to "do the thing" bless them with your god's guidance and get a D4 to help them do the thing. Wherever you are, if you're not casting another concentration spell or putting it on someone else, cast guidance on yourself. It even adds to your initiative at the start of combat. It's perfect when you want to make the save to avoid getting squished.
Spare the Dying is situational. Most of the time you'd just cast healing word to get a unconscious party member back in the fight, but what happens if you run out of spell slots? Spare the Dying is a free way to stabilize them until you can do something about their situation. It's definitely at its best used by a Grave Cleric (30 foot range and a bonus action, so it's healing word without the heal) but if you can move to the victim, or have a familiar that can apply it for you, it could be a lifesaver.
If you had darkvision I'd say Guidance, Toll the Dead, and Spare the Dying, but since you don't I'd say take Light instead of Spare the Dying. Grab that one when you next get a cantrip. Thaumaturgy is a fun role play cantrip, so that would be the next one on list of cantrips to get, but you don't get a fifth cantrip until level 10.
I was thinking along these lines. Only one of five characters has Darkvision, so that changes things.
I have the healing skill, so Spare the Dying is not as critical. I might pick up Sacred Flame or maybe Warding Flare at the next opportunity.
I agree I never take spare the dying. The way I look at it - it is a touch spell so, you can do the same thing with a healer's kit. If spare the dying was ranged (like with a Grave Cleric) it would be a different story
There's not really a "primary healer" role. No one gets enough spell slots to be the primary healer. You and the Paladin will be the two people responsible for healing somebody after they get knocked down to 0 health, but that's about it. You have a very limited number of spell slots, and they're best used for other purposes. Especially a Tempest Cleric. Tempest Clerics are one of the best Area of Effect damage dealers in the entire game because of their channel divinity. Use that when you're casting Thunderwave or Shatter, and you'll do a huge amount of damage. You'll also want to use spell slots for Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and other spells, so it's best to only use a spell slot for Cure Wounds or Healing Word when your ally is down on the ground with 0 health.
There's also no such thing as a Healing skill. Are you talking about the Medicine skill?
You could choose to use a melee weapon as your primary attack and skip doing a ranged spell cantrip. Clerics don't really get good ranged spell cantrips anyways. Your party looks to be a bit melee heavy. If the Rogue is melee, that's 4 out of 5 being melee damage dealers. Still, if you're a Tempest Cleric, it's probably best to be a melee damage dealer.
Guidance and Light are two cantrips you definitely should take. The last cantrip could be Toll the Dead if you want a ranged attack cantrip. Otherwise, Mending or Thaumaturgy are probably the two best choices. You can always take Toll the Dead at level 4 if you feel like the lack of a ranged spell cantrip is a problem.
The point in Toll the Dead, even for a melee character, is to have a useful option when the range can't be closed to get into melee. And yeah, my character will be using Shillelagh to get melee and spells off of one stat. (DM freebie due to a homebrew race).
Overcoming range should be a basic capability of every character in the game. Otherwise you'll be completely ****** in a lot of fights, especially at low level. Why thaumaturgy over a fall back ranged attack option? That seems like a poor choice.
imo, Shillelagh is kind of a trap option. I'd still use toll the dead in melee.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Guidance, Thaumaturgy, and Sacred Flame is what I would choose.
"A Jack Of All Trades is a master of none"
'That's why I hate Bards'
Hey, your last sentence here got me thinking - Warding Flare is Baseline for the Light Cleric, is that your considered Subclass? If that is the case, I have good news... Light is a Bonus Cantrip for you and you don't need to learn it :-)
So you could start out with
Guidance, Light, Spare the Dying, and your damage choice!
Happy Easter and stay safe!
Light Domain is a good subclass for his party. One of the best things about the Light Domain (quite possibly the best thing) is that they get Fireball as a Domain Spell. Once the Rogue and the Monk in his party reach level 7 they'll both likely take zero damage from any Fireball that you drop on them because of Evasion. Especially if they're within 10ft of the Paladin and get to add his Charisma modifier on top of their proficiency bonus and their Dexterity bonus. Also, the lack of darkvision in the party makes the Light cantrip especially useful as many here have noted.
Also, Warding Flare is ONLY available to Light Clerics, so he can't have that ability unless he chooses to be a Light Domain Cleric.
This. I generally strongly dislike spare the dying. As others have mentioned Warding Flare is a domain feature of Light Clerics, you can't pick it up without being a light cleric.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Sorry I missed that you chose Tempest Cleric -
In that case you won't be able to get Warding Flare and will have to take Light by yourself. Guidance and one damage choice should make for a decent setup overall.
Spare the Dying could come in handy especially at early levels, when you still have a really limited amount of spellslots. Considering your group also has a Paladin, you should be fine though.
Sacred flame, guidance, thaumaturgy.
EDIT: You guys are absolutely correct - I made assumptions about Shillelagh that don't hold up.
Looking at the numbers, I don't see it. At least for the early tiers. In the best case scenario (Tier 2, target already damaged), the output from TtD is only equal to Shillelagh. In all other situations, Shillelagh is better.
Tier 1
Toll the Dead: 1d8, avg. = 4.5
Toll the Dead: 1d12, avg. = 6
Shillelagh: 1d8 + WIS bonus (4), avg. = 7
Tier 2
Toll the Dead: 2d8, avg. = 8.5
Toll the Dead: 2d12, avg. = 12.5
Shillelagh: 2d8 + WIS bonus (4), avg. = 12.5
By level 8
Toll the Dead: 2d8, avg. = 8.5
Toll the Dead: 2d12, avg. = 12.5
Shillelagh: 2d8 + WIS bonus (4), + 1d8 (Divine Strike) avg. = 17
There are other factors to consider. TtD is a save spell doing oft-resisted necrotic damage. Shillelagh enhances regular melee attacks. It's my understanding that attack rolls usually land more often than save-or-suck spells. Of course, by level 8 I suspect this guy will be casting leveled spells more often than using any cantrip, but both options will be good to have.
What's the reasoning behind TtD being a better option?
The reason is that Shillelagh is still just 1D8 at tier 2, not 2D8 like you used in your calculations.
Your math shows the heart of it: after level 5, it begins to fall behind. Your chart is also incorrect. Shilelagh does not get 2d8 in tier 2, it does not scale at all. It's still pumping out the same 1d8+4 that it was at level 4. Does tempest have a feature that bumps it up, or are you somehow getting booming blade (perhaps via being half elf) to scale it up? Out of the box, for most users, Shillelagh has no scaling at all.
It's also going to start competing for your bonus action. It takes a bonus action to summon, and that's a round that you aren't attacking with spiritual weapon, and that starts at level 3.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
At level 8 the Tempest Cleric gets Divine Strike allowing them to add D8 thunder damage to their melee attack once a turn (since they only have one attack that's generally moot), which increases to 2D8 at level 14. They are probably the best melee Cleric.
For Tempest Cleric I can see the benefit of Shillelagh in order to make them solely wisdom dependent.
That said, at level 14 Shillelagh will be doing D8+5+2D8 = 18.5 average. Toll the Dead will be doing 3D12 (if target is already injured) for 19.5 average on a failed Wisdom save. Given that's a DC18 difficulty that's pretty good odds.
EDIT: Rereading the question, no, Shillelagh never does 2D8 damage on its own. Damage cantrips are better.
Got it - thanks!
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InsiderWhat spells you pick are flavored to your character, and there's no real wrong answer to cantrip choice. However indulge me for a moment as I make a case for Spare the Dying.
First...when a party member is dying, every other option requires expending resources. Healing requires spell slots, a full healers kit, a potion, an ability, or something else you will have in a limited amount. Except for Spare the Dying...a cantrip with no components. Spare the Dying is a spell you don't ever need until you absolutely need it because you're out of everything.
Second...if you have two people dying at the same time, Spare the Dying can help you fix that problem in one round. Bonus action healing word and action spare the dying and now you've bought yourself more time, instead of fretting about another round of death saving throws.
Third...sometimes you want to stop someone from dying but don't WANT to spend the limited use options. There are plenty of NPCs that would be useful or necessary to keep alive but maybe you don't want to spend resources on, like a prisoner you're trying to capture or an NPC you are trying to save but who has nothing to help with the fight.
Next time you're searching for 500gp diamonds remember there are other tools you can use before it gets to that point...
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