Okay, I'm not sure if other people have the same thoughts on this subclass that I have, but I thought it would be worth discussing. I don't have anything against this subclass existing, but its thematic space is too large and specific. This subclass is described as worshipping gods of light, more specifically sun deities. Now, this is my main issue with this subclass. It is not a general "light/radiant" type subclass, it is specifically a Sun Domain cleric (which honestly should be its name).
This subclass gets both radiant features, but also gets a lot of fire damaging spells, most notably scorching ray, flaming sphere, and fireball. This is not an issue, but it does not really fit its name and features. The issue is that this subclass (combined with the Forge Domain subclass) fills the niche that could be filled by a "Fire Domain" subclass, making it mostly inconceivable that such a subclass would be published, as well as filling the role of any "Radiant Domain" subclass that is devoted to light and radiance more than just the sun.
TL;DR - I don't hate the subclass, but I dislike that it hogs the design space that could be shared with two other subclasses (Fire Domain and Radiance Domain subclasses).
Anyone agree? Anyone disagree?
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I don't share the beef you have with the domain. Sun gods doing radiant and fire damage sounds about right. Nobody stops you from playing it as a more fiery or more radiant domain by picking relevant spells and feats.
I think a radiant and fire domain separately might compete for a similar spot and be too close to each other thematically as well.
It's not because it's named Light Domain that you can't play it like a fire domain. Forge has an entirely different niche even though it has some fire interaction as well.
Sun gods doing radiant and fire damage sounds about right.
Definitely, I agree. They should be radiant and fire related, but this subclass's name makes it appear as a generic "light" domain, instead of just a sun domain.
Nobody stops you from playing it as a more fiery or more radiant domain by picking relevant spells and feats.
It will probably stop WotC from making a Radiant or Fire Domain subclass. If they do a UA for a "Radiant" or "Fire" domain, people will complain about it having overlap with the Light Domain. My point is that WotC wrote themselves into a corner.
I think a radiant and fire domain separately might compete for a similar spot and be too close to each other thematically as well.
Which is exactly my "beef" with this subclass. It's not that this subclass has bad mechanics or anything, but it fits too broad of a role. It is hogging the thematic niche that could fill two other subclasses, but most likely won't be due to people freaking out about "stepping on another class/subclass's toes". This was the reason that the Brute was dumped.
It's not because it's named Light Domain that you can't play it like a fire domain. Forge has an entirely different niche even though it has some fire interaction as well.
The mechanics have nothing to do with Fire, though. Forge is different, but has enough fire in theme to prevent WotC from making an actual fire domain.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
To me it feels like the plethora of fire spells on the Light domains list has more to do with the lack of "sun" themed spells than anything else. There just aren't that many. And most radiant spells are already cleric spells and they want the domain list to give a unique identity. So they turned to the next shiniest thing (literally lol). Was it the best approach, I don't think so, but I'm also not really bothered by it.
I think the forge domain is much more akin to a creation domain. Fire is certainly an element to forging, but I think focusing on spells that create and improve items is where the bulk of the spell list wants to be.
I just don't see WoTC going down the path of elemental domains that are so clearly defined. They seem to favor grouping damage types into domains that fit a certain theme, ala Tempest.
I personally do not think we need a separate fire and radiance domain. The combo makes for a great domain. A radiance domain by itself isn't much. Fire Domain would be weaker, being so focused on the single most common element and therefore the single most common Resistance.
There's a lot of deities that fit the "fire" theme, but not the radiance theme. The domain is good, but it really doesn't make sense for a cleric of Hephaestus to be tied to anything radiant.
Also, WotC has made it clear that damage type doesn't matter to them for design purposes (even though it matters mechanically). Whether it's a common damage type to be resistant/immune to doesn't have any weight in a conversation about whether or not a subclass should exist. Otherwise, Fiend Warlocks and Wildfire Druids wouldn't gain access to any fire spells or features.
I'm playing a light cleric in our current campaign and I love it. I mean, I like playing support roles anyhow, and have already played a life cleric and a grave cleric in previous campaigns. But the big difference, IMHO, isn't so much which spells you get but how you play the character. Yes, Light gets some sweet damage spells. I mean... come on... FIREBALL! So you could play a light cleric as a fire-hurling DPS who can toss out a heal when necessary. But my group already has plenty of damage output, and we like to really get into the heads of the characters during role play, so I'm playing my light cleric as the "light of hope in a dark world" kind of character. The "light" that my character represents isn't the sun, but a lighthouse. A faithful and steadfast sentinel that withstands the storm and guides others to safety. Plus, in terms of supporting the party, the Warding Flare domain ability is amazing! Imposing disadvantage on incoming attacks saves me from having to burn so many spell slots on healing, and keeps everyone up longer.
I guess, to me, the character's background and personality and motivation is more important than any specific class-based ability.
Examples from 3rd edition for anyone to reference and get ideas from for homebrew:
FIRE DOMAIN
Granted Power: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.
Fire Domain Spells
1 Burning Hands: 1d4/level fire damage (max 5d4).
2 Produce Flame: 1d6 damage +1/ level, touch or thrown.
3 Resist Energy*: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
4 Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
5 Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
6 Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
7 Fire Storm: Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
8 Incendiary Cloud: Cloud deals 4d6 fire damage/round.
9 Elemental Swarm**: Summons multiple elementals.
*Resist cold or fire only.
**Cast as a fire spell only.
SUN DOMAIN
Granted Power: Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead.
Sun Domain Spells
1 Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
2 Heat Metal: Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
3 Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels, more against undead.
4 Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
5 Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
6 Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
7 Sunbeam: Beam blinds and deals 4d6 damage.
8 Sunburst: Blinds all within 80 ft., deals 6d6 damage.
9 Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.
3rd edition didn't have a light or forge domain as far as I can remember.
Pretty odd that 3rd edition's Sun Domain didn't have the Daylight spell.
There's a lot of deities that fit the "fire" theme, but not the radiance theme. The domain is good, but it really doesn't make sense for a cleric of Hephaestus to be tied to anything radiant.
Also, WotC has made it clear that damage type doesn't matter to them for design purposes (even though it matters mechanically). Whether it's a common damage type to be resistant/immune to doesn't have any weight in a conversation about whether or not a subclass should exist. Otherwise, Fiend Warlocks and Wildfire Druids wouldn't gain access to any fire spells or features.
i mean that specific god you mentioned as an example fits perfectly with the forge domain already
and having subclasses with a lot of fire spells added to their spell lists does not mean that wizards still do not think that a purely fire based subclass might not work, wildfire druids have the fire theme but they also have "rebirth" as a theme that grants them a few tricks ado with ressurection etc
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I personally think 3E's clerics are worshiping giant Pokemon gods. 5E's deities are closer to the Greek pantheon. For example, Apollo,the "God of oracles, healing, archery, music and arts, sunlight, knowledge, herds and flocks, and protection of the young" [wikipedia] is more of an actual character with stories and anecdotes of what a Godlike being would do in a situation rather than a figure idol on a pedestal.
Light clerics are imbued with the power of banishing the darkness. Their spell list and divine powers are derived from their purpose and motive not their elemental "domain".
What would a Fire domain's purpose be? Because the Fiend patron shares a lot of the similarities of the Light domain... but with a sinister twist.
I personally think 3E's clerics are worshiping giant Pokemon gods. 5E's deities are closer to the Greek pantheon. For example, Apollo,the "God of oracles, healing, archery, music and arts, sunlight, knowledge, herds and flocks, and protection of the young" [wikipedia] is more of an actual character with stories and anecdotes of what a Godlike being would do in a situation rather than a figure idol on a pedestal.
Light clerics are imbued with the power of banishing the darkness. Their spell list and divine powers are derived from their purpose and motive not their elemental "domain".
What would a Fire domain's purpose be? Because the Fiend patron shares a lot of the similarities of the Light domain... but with a sinister twist.
I really like the idea that the different domains of cleric have a purpose that they perform on behalf of their deity
e.g.
Trickery Domain testing people by disguising themselves as old, helpless people (Something seen quite a lot in greek mythology) or disrupting tyrants (gaining a real Robin Hood Complex)
Knowledge Domain preserving ancients texts about the Gods as well as making sure that the legacy of the Gods live on
Order Domain making sure laws are first of all followed but more importantly, ensuring that these laws are fair and just
Overall I think a Fire domain wouldn't be thematically interesting enough to encourage people to play it whereas the light domain provides lots of different roleplaying opportunities. If the twilight cleric didn't exist, I would say make a light cleric that worships a moon deity and flavour all of their fire based attacks to look silvery in nature or something like that. Also bear in mind, whilst you always have the domain spells prepared, it doesn't mean that you must use them. It goes that way for all other domains so why not light domain. Since it doesn't come out of the maximum you can have prepared, it doesn't impact the spells that you were gonna prepare anyways.
i also found this to cause some issues, although for somewhat different reasons. awhile back i was looking for a cleric domain, that aligns more with the lore of Eilistraee. *hint... Eilistraeen cleric's had an alternative class option avail* the issue was basically that Eilistraee is more of a lunar deity than a solar one, & while her followers are not exclusively Drow the vast majority of them likely are as part of her cause is to free the drow from Lolth's enslavement so they might return to the surface. basically Drow have a natural adversion to the sunlight, and can even receive penalties while performing an action in "direct sunlight". which, may be only a few Light domain cleric spells would produce, but never the less. a sunlight domain is something not every player or GM can easily rework for Eilistraee, and whats funny if it was more about luminescence/radiance than sun spells it likely could have worked fairly well right out of the box. I also like Twilight, its closer in some regard for what some people like myself might choose for an Eilistraeen cleric (nature, life, light domains @ vanilla) but after hearing a few statements from Wotc staff regarding how their are no plans for any "moon based domains" i think ill choose from whats available for now, and work with friends & DM in the future for using a custom or customized domain.
basically our goals are likely different, but they relate to the points you brought up in regards to light domain having a rather heavy solar/fire focus, when we were kinda looking for something a bit more open ended in regards to 'light'. so i'm not entirely sure what you were looking to do with the domain itself, or were just pointing out that you noticed this 1 single domain, is sorta taking up the space of 2 (or more) potential domains. which i am inclined to agree with. not that i dislike it, or want it to go away. but perhaps in the future it could be "Solar light domain" or renamed to "Firey Sun Domain" or something. and for now, i guess everyone else will likely wanna discuss (between players & DM) if a preexisting domain can be modified a bit, or a new (custom) one in it's stead, or idk -shrugs- thats my 2cents tho.. there is an entire thread on the cleric forums here, where other players & myself hash out some of the details for an Eilistraeen cleric, so no need to get into all that in major detail here.
Wish you & everyone success in their pursuits. Goodluck ^_^
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Okay, I'm not sure if other people have the same thoughts on this subclass that I have, but I thought it would be worth discussing. I don't have anything against this subclass existing, but its thematic space is too large and specific. This subclass is described as worshipping gods of light, more specifically sun deities. Now, this is my main issue with this subclass. It is not a general "light/radiant" type subclass, it is specifically a Sun Domain cleric (which honestly should be its name).
This subclass gets both radiant features, but also gets a lot of fire damaging spells, most notably scorching ray, flaming sphere, and fireball. This is not an issue, but it does not really fit its name and features. The issue is that this subclass (combined with the Forge Domain subclass) fills the niche that could be filled by a "Fire Domain" subclass, making it mostly inconceivable that such a subclass would be published, as well as filling the role of any "Radiant Domain" subclass that is devoted to light and radiance more than just the sun.
TL;DR - I don't hate the subclass, but I dislike that it hogs the design space that could be shared with two other subclasses (Fire Domain and Radiance Domain subclasses).
Anyone agree? Anyone disagree?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I don't share the beef you have with the domain. Sun gods doing radiant and fire damage sounds about right. Nobody stops you from playing it as a more fiery or more radiant domain by picking relevant spells and feats.
I think a radiant and fire domain separately might compete for a similar spot and be too close to each other thematically as well.
It's not because it's named Light Domain that you can't play it like a fire domain. Forge has an entirely different niche even though it has some fire interaction as well.
Definitely, I agree. They should be radiant and fire related, but this subclass's name makes it appear as a generic "light" domain, instead of just a sun domain.
It will probably stop WotC from making a Radiant or Fire Domain subclass. If they do a UA for a "Radiant" or "Fire" domain, people will complain about it having overlap with the Light Domain. My point is that WotC wrote themselves into a corner.
Which is exactly my "beef" with this subclass. It's not that this subclass has bad mechanics or anything, but it fits too broad of a role. It is hogging the thematic niche that could fill two other subclasses, but most likely won't be due to people freaking out about "stepping on another class/subclass's toes". This was the reason that the Brute was dumped.
The mechanics have nothing to do with Fire, though. Forge is different, but has enough fire in theme to prevent WotC from making an actual fire domain.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
To me it feels like the plethora of fire spells on the Light domains list has more to do with the lack of "sun" themed spells than anything else. There just aren't that many. And most radiant spells are already cleric spells and they want the domain list to give a unique identity. So they turned to the next shiniest thing (literally lol). Was it the best approach, I don't think so, but I'm also not really bothered by it.
I think the forge domain is much more akin to a creation domain. Fire is certainly an element to forging, but I think focusing on spells that create and improve items is where the bulk of the spell list wants to be.
I just don't see WoTC going down the path of elemental domains that are so clearly defined. They seem to favor grouping damage types into domains that fit a certain theme, ala Tempest.
What would you be looking for in sun themed spells then?
You can pretty easily reflavor Fireball and Flaming Sphere as being fiery suns, but I'm not sure about anything other than the current sun spells.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I personally do not think we need a separate fire and radiance domain. The combo makes for a great domain. A radiance domain by itself isn't much. Fire Domain would be weaker, being so focused on the single most common element and therefore the single most common Resistance.
There's a lot of deities that fit the "fire" theme, but not the radiance theme. The domain is good, but it really doesn't make sense for a cleric of Hephaestus to be tied to anything radiant.
Also, WotC has made it clear that damage type doesn't matter to them for design purposes (even though it matters mechanically). Whether it's a common damage type to be resistant/immune to doesn't have any weight in a conversation about whether or not a subclass should exist. Otherwise, Fiend Warlocks and Wildfire Druids wouldn't gain access to any fire spells or features.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm playing a light cleric in our current campaign and I love it. I mean, I like playing support roles anyhow, and have already played a life cleric and a grave cleric in previous campaigns. But the big difference, IMHO, isn't so much which spells you get but how you play the character. Yes, Light gets some sweet damage spells. I mean... come on... FIREBALL! So you could play a light cleric as a fire-hurling DPS who can toss out a heal when necessary. But my group already has plenty of damage output, and we like to really get into the heads of the characters during role play, so I'm playing my light cleric as the "light of hope in a dark world" kind of character. The "light" that my character represents isn't the sun, but a lighthouse. A faithful and steadfast sentinel that withstands the storm and guides others to safety. Plus, in terms of supporting the party, the Warding Flare domain ability is amazing! Imposing disadvantage on incoming attacks saves me from having to burn so many spell slots on healing, and keeps everyone up longer.
I guess, to me, the character's background and personality and motivation is more important than any specific class-based ability.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Examples from 3rd edition for anyone to reference and get ideas from for homebrew:
3rd edition didn't have a light or forge domain as far as I can remember.
Pretty odd that 3rd edition's Sun Domain didn't have the Daylight spell.
i mean that specific god you mentioned as an example fits perfectly with the forge domain already
and having subclasses with a lot of fire spells added to their spell lists does not mean that wizards still do not think that a purely fire based subclass might not work, wildfire druids have the fire theme but they also have "rebirth" as a theme that grants them a few tricks ado with ressurection etc
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I personally think 3E's clerics are worshiping giant Pokemon gods. 5E's deities are closer to the Greek pantheon. For example, Apollo,the "God of oracles, healing, archery, music and arts, sunlight, knowledge, herds and flocks, and protection of the young" [wikipedia] is more of an actual character with stories and anecdotes of what a Godlike being would do in a situation rather than a figure idol on a pedestal.
Light clerics are imbued with the power of banishing the darkness. Their spell list and divine powers are derived from their purpose and motive not their elemental "domain".
What would a Fire domain's purpose be? Because the Fiend patron shares a lot of the similarities of the Light domain... but with a sinister twist.
I really like the idea that the different domains of cleric have a purpose that they perform on behalf of their deity
e.g.
Overall I think a Fire domain wouldn't be thematically interesting enough to encourage people to play it whereas the light domain provides lots of different roleplaying opportunities. If the twilight cleric didn't exist, I would say make a light cleric that worships a moon deity and flavour all of their fire based attacks to look silvery in nature or something like that. Also bear in mind, whilst you always have the domain spells prepared, it doesn't mean that you must use them. It goes that way for all other domains so why not light domain. Since it doesn't come out of the maximum you can have prepared, it doesn't impact the spells that you were gonna prepare anyways.
i also found this to cause some issues, although for somewhat different reasons.
awhile back i was looking for a cleric domain, that aligns more with the lore of Eilistraee.
*hint... Eilistraeen cleric's had an alternative class option avail*
the issue was basically that Eilistraee is more of a lunar deity than a solar one, & while her followers are not exclusively Drow the vast majority of them likely are as part of her cause is to free the drow from Lolth's enslavement so they might return to the surface.
basically Drow have a natural adversion to the sunlight, and can even receive penalties while performing an action in "direct sunlight".
which, may be only a few Light domain cleric spells would produce, but never the less. a sunlight domain is something not every player or GM can easily rework for Eilistraee, and whats funny if it was more about luminescence/radiance than sun spells it likely could have worked fairly well right out of the box. I also like Twilight, its closer in some regard for what some people like myself might choose for an Eilistraeen cleric (nature, life, light domains @ vanilla) but after hearing a few statements from Wotc staff regarding how their are no plans for any "moon based domains" i think ill choose from whats available for now, and work with friends & DM in the future for using a custom or customized domain.
basically our goals are likely different, but they relate to the points you brought up in regards to light domain having a rather heavy solar/fire focus, when we were kinda looking for something a bit more open ended in regards to 'light'. so i'm not entirely sure what you were looking to do with the domain itself, or were just pointing out that you noticed this 1 single domain, is sorta taking up the space of 2 (or more) potential domains. which i am inclined to agree with. not that i dislike it, or want it to go away. but perhaps in the future it could be "Solar light domain" or renamed to "Firey Sun Domain" or something. and for now, i guess everyone else will likely wanna discuss (between players & DM) if a preexisting domain can be modified a bit, or a new (custom) one in it's stead, or idk -shrugs- thats my 2cents tho.. there is an entire thread on the cleric forums here, where other players & myself hash out some of the details for an Eilistraeen cleric, so no need to get into all that in major detail here.
Wish you & everyone success in their pursuits. Goodluck ^_^