Yet again, the “people “in charge of redesigning rules have dropped the ball.
so for Moon Drew, would you’ve taken away elemental wild shape, which is ridiculous. I don’t give a crap about extra radiant damage or radiant damage at all.
and now you’re also placing a limitation on the number of “known “forms for a Druid. And their pathetic reasoning, for this is that it makes the DM and the player on the same page and allows for better intimacy with your selection of shapes. No. what it does, is once again, favours the DM as every single rule change seems to. It’s just make things easier for the DM while simultaneously sucking out the creativity and imagination behind what was a wonderful game before the current heads at this company butchered the crap out of it and tore it’s very soul out .
just like the ongoing ridiculousness of concentration on most spells, when clearly a fair amount of magical spells are and should be self sustaining it’s the whole point!! I should be able to cast more than one protective spell upon myself without having to concentrate on it.
this is what happens when hipsters get their hands on things they distorted they pollute it. They redefined it for themselves without any care or consideration for the origin and the intended audience. It’s the new clique thing for them, and they want to remake it in their own image.
Oh i don’t know. I think this is all a bit harsh. First, Moon Druid was poorly balanced in 2014. This one seems much more Druidic and much less problematic. And the numbers of forms given in the table are a lot, really.
But I think your aspersions at the end are really off base, especially considering the overlap of the teams that wrote the 2014 and 2024 versions of the druid.
I think overall the druid changes are for the better.
As wolf said Moon druid in 2014 was terribly balanced you were probably more powerful than the rest of the party at level 2, by level 5 you would rarely use your subclass features as what wasa powerful creature at level 2 did very little at level 5 so you were better off casting spells, (and CR2 at level 6 didn't change things) elemental wild shape helped but was stil circumstantail until you got beast spells and archdruid when you were OP again.
The 2014 Druid player has to agree with their DM all the creatures they have seen in their back story which is a bit of a pain. Many groups ignore that restriction but what do you then do about Oynx the CR0 beast that "cannot be overcome or killed by combat", for a long time I was scared off playing a druid because UI did not want to go through the stat blocks of 200 odd beasts to determine which ones might be useful in various circumstances.
The "conjure" spells in the PHB had gameplay problems, having 8 summoned creatures (in theory up to 32) not only unbalanced combat due to action economy but also slowed down the game massively and often prevented the melee characters even getting to the enemy to do anything. There was also the question of whether the DM or the player decided what creature was conjured, if the DM decided the player was likely to be disappointed and / or spend 10 minutes reading the stat block and working out how best to use the features in the current situation, if the player chooses then many combats beyond level 7 resulting in 8 pixies casting polymorph on the enemies and then the party either leaving the area or taking them out one at a time makingthe encounter trivial, the DM can try to counter this by putting the party up against creatures with very high charisma saves or horrdes of enemies but it greatly diminishes the variety of challenges he can put up.
It is generally agreed Spellcasters are stranger than martial classes in 2014, getting rid of concentration rules would by the divide far greater. I do agree that my druid is often looking at his options of spells to prepare and finding too many require concentration and not enough don't (of the 21 4th level spells currently available 15 require concentration) I would like to see I higher proportion of spells, particularly for the druid, not to require concentration but do not know if that has been addressed in 2024 PHB.
One quirk of DND is that you can't play it without a dungeon master. Making the role of dungeon master more accessible is a benefit to everyone who wants to play DND.
A lot of dungeon masters burn out from decision fatigue. Adding more clarity, and taking things off the dungeon masters plate seems to be a big emphasis of this rule redesign. I think that is a fantastic direction. And the team that brought us the best balanced and easiest to play version of the game in 2024 is poised to give us a DM renaissance in 2025.
I agree they killed the Druid. Classes and spells aren't supposed to be balanced at every level, the devs even said so. Fireball is supposed to be OP when you first get it and Wizards are supposed to be super squishy at tier 1, it's the way they were designed. This puts Druids on the back foot bigtime as well as all shapechanging spells. I'm curious to see all the changes but the more and more I read and watch, the more it looks like my tables with stay 5e and not migrate to One.
I think overall the druid changes are for the better.
As wolf said Moon druid in 2014 was terribly balanced you were probably more powerful than the rest of the party at level 2, by level 5 you would rarely use your subclass features as what wasa powerful creature at level 2 did very little at level 5 so you were better off casting spells, (and CR2 at level 6 didn't change things) elemental wild shape helped but was stil circumstantail until you got beast spells and archdruid when you were OP again.
The 2014 Druid player has to agree with their DM all the creatures they have seen in their back story which is a bit of a pain. Many groups ignore that restriction but what do you then do about Oynx the CR0 beast that "cannot be overcome or killed by combat", for a long time I was scared off playing a druid because UI did not want to go through the stat blocks of 200 odd beasts to determine which ones might be useful in various circumstances.
The "conjure" spells in the PHB had gameplay problems, having 8 summoned creatures (in theory up to 32) not only unbalanced combat due to action economy but also slowed down the game massively and often prevented the melee characters even getting to the enemy to do anything. There was also the question of whether the DM or the player decided what creature was conjured, if the DM decided the player was likely to be disappointed and / or spend 10 minutes reading the stat block and working out how best to use the features in the current situation, if the player chooses then many combats beyond level 7 resulting in 8 pixies casting polymorph on the enemies and then the party either leaving the area or taking them out one at a time makingthe encounter trivial, the DM can try to counter this by putting the party up against creatures with very high charisma saves or horrdes of enemies but it greatly diminishes the variety of challenges he can put up.
It is generally agreed Spellcasters are stranger than martial classes in 2014, getting rid of concentration rules would by the divide far greater. I do agree that my druid is often looking at his options of spells to prepare and finding too many require concentration and not enough don't (of the 21 4th level spells currently available 15 require concentration) I would like to see I higher proportion of spells, particularly for the druid, not to require concentration but do not know if that has been addressed in 2024 PHB.
ya the transforming conjure animals into bad spirit guardians was not a good change thematicly . too many creatures could be a problem but you could kill them easily with aoe id have rather put a limit on the animals rather then the uncreative solution of" hey, lets give druids a worse spirit guardians. not to mention shepherd is dead on arrival, backwards compatibility be damed .your biggest problem is having this attitude against druid while wizard basically just got buffs .
Id say you have a point except wizard is still busted beyond reason and they only got buffs.
Wizard was the least changed class so far. And on that note, most of the broken things about wizards are spells. We have not seen the updates to spells that are the most broken yet.
It also depends on what you mean by busted. Lots of weapon damage builds by far out damage a straight wizard of any subclass just slinging spells. In fact most of the damage optimization builds I've seen are based around weapon attacks with maybe a sprinkling of (usually cha) caster just to cast one spell.
Yet again, the “people “in charge of redesigning rules have dropped the ball.
so for Moon Drew, would you’ve taken away elemental wild shape, which is ridiculous. I don’t give a crap about extra radiant damage or radiant damage at all.
and now you’re also placing a limitation on the number of “known “forms for a Druid. And their pathetic reasoning, for this is that it makes the DM and the player on the same page and allows for better intimacy with your selection of shapes. No. what it does, is once again, favours the DM as every single rule change seems to. It’s just make things easier for the DM while simultaneously sucking out the creativity and imagination behind what was a wonderful game before the current heads at this company butchered the crap out of it and tore it’s very soul out .
just like the ongoing ridiculousness of concentration on most spells, when clearly a fair amount of magical spells are and should be self sustaining it’s the whole point!! I should be able to cast more than one protective spell upon myself without having to concentrate on it.
this is what happens when hipsters get their hands on things they distorted they pollute it. They redefined it for themselves without any care or consideration for the origin and the intended audience. It’s the new clique thing for them, and they want to remake it in their own image.
Obviously you have some very passionate feelings about the change, but as a lover of Druids AND a borderline fulltime DM, I like what I see here. Heck, the only thing I hate is having to pick between flavor and function at level 1 with the Warden/Magician thing. I love getting extra Nature Knowledge rolls but hate losing the Medium armor for it (I still probably will though).
Impartially, I'll look at the weaknesses the Moon Druid picked up with the change.
1) They have to wait until level 3 instead of 2 to get their bigger Wild Shapes. A single level CAN be a big deal but this obviously matters more of what level people start out as. I can see a lot more games starting at level 3 than in the past but this is harder to judge.
2) No longer picking up the Beast's HP. This is obviously, easily, the biggest (on paper) nerf to the class at its earliest levels. However, as I'll bring it up again in the Pros, its not as cut and dry.
3) Getting a limited number of Wild Shapes known.
4) No Elemental Form at level 10. This one sucks for anyone who loved those forms. I've got nothing to console that. I used them because they were good but I preferred being a Bear thematically in my head so I just made all the elemental forms bear shaped heh.
5) No longer getting all Wild Shapes back on a short rest is technically a nerf, though again this isn't 100%.
Now let's move onto the Positives (which, spoiler alert, I find outweigh the weaknesses/negatives by a good margin).
1) Riding off of the #2 spot above, you only get a Temp HP buff instead of the beast's full HP, however this has some upsides. The obvious are the weird cases that affect your total Hitpoints (Powerword Kill being infamous but smaller other weird things). Bigger than that, however, is the fact that at level 3, with a +3 to your Wisdom score, you're looking at a 16AC in most of your beast forms (unless they increased the AC of a bunch of beasts). Getting hit less is more HP. At level 3, that's 9 Temp HP which is a far cry from the 30 something they had, but it IS more fair at that level AND it doesn't make you lose your Wildshape for getting hit too much.
2) You can cast spells in this form. This is a bigger one than people might give credit to. No longer needing to hop out to get someone up with a Cure Wounds (now 2d8 at level 1) or Healing Word (now at 2d4). And that's just level 1 spells. IF it stays the same as the Playtest, you could also sac a spell slot for temp HP again as a free action by "shifting" back into the form, which is a buff from the previous version where you gained a flat 1d8 per spell level. Now you can Healing Word yourself as a bonus action for 2d4+Wis, OR just take the Temp HP of 9 (which is better on average but barely). I also thought they mentioned something about better concentration checks in that form but I don't know offhand.
3) You still likely are getting multiattack before everyone else at level 3 with your brown bear and whatever else, so you're still doing well for yourself.
4) At level 10, getting a free MistyStep with a rider (Advantage on next hit) can be a big deal. With spells active like Fount of Moonlight (which admittedly take an action but if like the playtest it lasts for 10 minutes, thats a lot of mileage and a great damage buff), you're hitting pretty heavy.
5) The level 14 ability is just better. Not much to say about that, really.
And now THE BIG UNKNOWNS
What no one knows but WotC is what the beasts are looking like. We don't know yet what we can turn into. We don't know what they can do. We don't know how well the CRs will scale. We could very well hit a block of the beasts not being able to hit anything which makes them back into the "this sucks" camp. We're stuck in a Wait and See for this, however. My guess is we're getting Owlbear as a form (cool). And they said they'll be great options all the way up. Could be true, could be smoke.
Just a long winded way of reminding people to wait for the full release, along with Playtesting, before passing judgment. There are going to be new people that see these forums and assume the worst due to Doomsayers when things might be better than ever.
From what I see, the new druid looks far and away better than the 2014 druid.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm also not a fan of the weird moon teleport at level 10 and wish the 10 and 14 features did something to enhance our shapeshifting in other ways. Maybe something like a partial shift to take a non-attack ability from a beast statblock in our caster-form like Keen Senses or a feature that lets us shift between beast forms while Wildshaped without expending a Wildshape use (but without getting the temp HP, so it is only used for changing between forms and doesn't affect the druid's HP pool).
That said, there are a lot of good things that came with the bad changes. Being able to know things about Nature and having Druidic give us Speak with Animal always prepared are both great and flavorful. The core class also supports the Moon Druid subclass more with all the damage modifiers you can pick up. Being able to cast in wildshape form as a Moon Druid is also HUGE and means we don't get crippled when we lose concentration in combat. If you get bonked you can just throw up one of the Moon Druid spells and keep going.
The "forms known" restriction doesn't really bother me because my druids tended to have a small, thematic list of forms they preferred anyway. I'm more worried the Player's Handbook won't have enough options for variety, but since we'll be able to pick through the Monster Manual too that won't be an issue.
Yet again, the “people “in charge of redesigning rules have dropped the ball.
so for Moon Drew, would you’ve taken away elemental wild shape, which is ridiculous. I don’t give a crap about extra radiant damage or radiant damage at all.
and now you’re also placing a limitation on the number of “known “forms for a Druid. And their pathetic reasoning, for this is that it makes the DM and the player on the same page and allows for better intimacy with your selection of shapes. No. what it does, is once again, favours the DM as every single rule change seems to. It’s just make things easier for the DM while simultaneously sucking out the creativity and imagination behind what was a wonderful game before the current heads at this company butchered the crap out of it and tore it’s very soul out .
just like the ongoing ridiculousness of concentration on most spells, when clearly a fair amount of magical spells are and should be self sustaining it’s the whole point!! I should be able to cast more than one protective spell upon myself without having to concentrate on it.
this is what happens when hipsters get their hands on things they distorted they pollute it. They redefined it for themselves without any care or consideration for the origin and the intended audience. It’s the new clique thing for them, and they want to remake it in their own image.
You lost me when you put "people" in quotes. You don't think they're people?
Elemental wild shape was cool but overall moon druids were broken and this feature didn't really fit with the whole theme. Personally I think everything they did was important. I do hope they create a new elemental wild shape subclass in the future though. It's a cool concept.
I have mixed feelings about the upcoming changes to druids:
Happy:
I was very happy with the new Warden Primal Order option. Druids were originally a subclass of Clerics, but Clerics were always allowed to use armor; then, later they were able to gain proficiency with martial weapons. Also, in the new 2024 PHB video on Druid changes, JC mentioned that the Warden can use "armor", which I interpret as the end of the druid prohibition on armor. I will definitely play a Warden very soon. BTW, as a consequence of the Warden, I'd hope that the druid's best spell for melee combat, Shillelagh, gets expanded to include martial weapons.
Although it's mostly flavor, I like that druid magic is Primal magic, rather than (and distinguished from) Divine magic and Arcane magic.
I like the new sub-class, Circle of the Sea, and am looking forward to playing one. The water and storm themed sub-class spell list sounds awesome.
It's complicated: wildshape.
Very happy: all druids can wildshape as a bonus action; and allowing druids to cast more spells while in beast form
Not happy: limiting wildshape forms. I understand that for novice or even intermediate players, wildshape can slow down the game because the onus is on the player to research their wildshape options before playing.
Slightly unhappy: giving druids temporary HPs instead of the HP pool of the wildshape form
Although I'm good with RAW Druid level - creature CR level rules, at my table, I will be allowing homebrew options for wildshape, such as:
I'll leave it up to the player to decide whether they want to limit wildshape to certain forms, or whether they plan on taking the initiative and researching their wildshape option beforehand
I will allow druids to wildshape into some non-beasts, e.g., owlbears, ankheg, elementals, some plants (awakened shrub/tree, shrieker), blink dogs, centaur (instead of a horse), cockatrice, griffon.
I'll change the druid levels for wildshape forms that can swim and fly. RAW druids can wildshape into creatures that can swim by level 4, but I'd probably drop that to level 2 or 3. Re flying creatures, Fly is a 3rd level arcane spell which Wizards get at 5th level, but Druids can't wildshape into a flying creature until 8th level. At my table Druids will be able to wildshape into flying creatures by level 6. I actually think it's fairly easy to make the argument that Druids should be able to wildshape into a flying creature before level 5, within the RAW CR limits.
The Druid is such a rich class, I still think there are many untapped druid sub-class options/themes that will need to be homebrewed.
I have mixed feelings about the upcoming changes to druids:
Happy:
I was very happy with the new Warden Primal Order option. Druids were originally a subclass of Clerics, but Clerics were always allowed to use armor; then, later they were able to gain proficiency with martial weapons. Also, in the new 2024 PHB video on Druid changes, JC mentioned that the Warden can use "armor", which I interpret as the end of the druid prohibition on armor. I will definitely play a Warden very soon. BTW, as a consequence of the Warden, I'd hope that the druid's best spell for melee combat, Shillelagh, gets expanded to include martial weapons.
Although it's mostly flavor, I like that druid magic is Primal magic, rather than (and distinguished from) Divine magic and Arcane magic.
I like the new sub-class, Circle of the Sea, and am looking forward to playing one. The water and storm themed sub-class spell list sounds awesome.
It's complicated: wildshape.
Very happy: all druids can wildshape as a bonus action; and allowing druids to cast more spells while in beast form
Not happy: limiting wildshape forms. I understand that for novice or even intermediate players, wildshape can slow down the game because the onus is on the player to research their wildshape options before playing.
Slightly unhappy: giving druids temporary HPs instead of the HP pool of the wildshape form
Although I'm good with RAW Druid level - creature CR level rules, at my table, I will be allowing homebrew options for wildshape, such as:
I'll leave it up to the player to decide whether they want to limit wildshape to certain forms, or whether they plan on taking the initiative and researching their wildshape option beforehand
I will allow druids to wildshape into some non-beasts, e.g., owlbears, ankheg, elementals, some plants (awakened shrub/tree, shrieker), blink dogs, centaur (instead of a horse), cockatrice, griffon.
I'll change the druid levels for wildshape forms that can swim and fly. RAW druids can wildshape into creatures that can swim by level 4, but I'd probably drop that to level 2 or 3. Re flying creatures, Fly is a 3rd level arcane spell which Wizards get at 5th level, but Druids can't wildshape into a flying creature until 8th level. At my table Druids will be able to wildshape into flying creatures by level 6. I actually think it's fairly easy to make the argument that Druids should be able to wildshape into a flying creature before level 5, within the RAW CR limits.
The Druid is such a rich class, I still think there are many untapped druid sub-class options/themes that will need to be homebrewed.
Good thoughts. I agree with almost everything but I love the temp hit points in wild shape instead of giving them a whole second pool of hit points. It's much easier to handle, removes the overpowered issues of just having a ton of hit points and being nearly unkillable at 20. It also gives a ton of multi class potential. The only downside is its weaker but in a way that is good for the game.
Although I don't see the change to HPs during wild shaping to be the most significant change to the class, I do think it's a fairly big change. And here's why: typically in the game Druid's wildshape because of the following calculation: the decrease in DPR as a beast (compared to a Druid casting spells, etc.) is worth the trade-off for extra HPs. (That said, IIRC one of the new changes is that the Druid's AC during wildshape is the MAX of the Druid or the beast, which is a decent buff and changes the calculation slightly.) By assuming the HPs of the beast, wild shape was like Polymorph, a 4th level arcane spell. However, wildshape is more limited than Polymorph because it's limited to beasts only, which seems fairly balanced to me. The new change, however, just provides temporary HP, which is very common in D&D. For example, Heroism is a Level 1 (bard) spell and provides temporary hit points.
In short, while I don't think utility uses of wild shape will change at all, because of this change I think Druids (other than Moon Druids) will be wild shaping (a lot) less during combat. One circumstance where I do think the new change won't affect the game is when the Druid is close to death and just needs a (temporary) boost in HPs. At least the Druid has been given lots of different options for expending a use of wildshape, e.g., spell slots, casting Find Familiar, which will likely last longer since the new wildshape will last longer, etc. Still if you think wild shape is one of the most unique mechanics in the game, for one of the most unique classes in the game, the change to temp HPs is a decent nerf, and will be used less in game.
Polymorph is also beasts only, the tradeoffs are the CR and you can cast it on others for the cost of a fourth level spell. That said, I'm sure polymorph will change as it's currently the best "healing" spell in the game.
In my current campaign, I've literally never used wild shape in combat. With the change, I still don't think I will. I could see a scenario where I would cast lightning storm, then turn into a bird or something and fly away from enemies. You could do that previously but you'd risk being knocked out of wild shape and then take fall damage. Now, you'd just stay in the wild shape until you're at zero hp. Which I think in general is what makes it so much better mechanically for combat. It's easier to maintain the wild shape because the wild shape hit points are based on your hit points, which are pretty high compared to the creatures you turned into, and the temp hit points are based on your level. This smooths out the power curve. It also gets rid of the near indestructible issues with the moon druid.
Playtest stuff does not mention anywhere that Druids cannot use metal armour. Is that a buff then?
To be precise, in the 2024 Druid preview video (here) JC only mentioned that a Warden can use "medium armor", which druids can use now. JC didn't specify that the armor that druids can use is metal. And unlike other classes, there is no post on the 2024 Druid class--although there is a post on wild shape and moon druids. So, strictly speaking whether the prohibition on metal armor is gone is TBD.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Based on this article that summarizes every change to the druid in the 2024 PHB, Warden druids can use medium armor and there is no mention of the metal armor prohibition:
Yet again, the “people “in charge of redesigning rules have dropped the ball.
so for Moon Drew, would you’ve taken away elemental wild shape, which is ridiculous. I don’t give a crap about extra radiant damage or radiant damage at all.
and now you’re also placing a limitation on the number of “known “forms for a Druid. And their pathetic reasoning, for this is that it makes the DM and the player on the same page and allows for better intimacy with your selection of shapes.
No. what it does, is once again, favours the DM as every single rule change seems to. It’s just make things easier for the DM while simultaneously sucking out the creativity and imagination behind what was a wonderful game before the current heads at this company butchered the crap out of it and tore it’s very soul out .
just like the ongoing ridiculousness of concentration on most spells, when clearly a fair amount of magical spells are and should be self sustaining it’s the whole point!! I should be able to cast more than one protective spell upon myself without having to concentrate on it.
this is what happens when hipsters get their hands on things they distorted they pollute it. They redefined it for themselves without any care or consideration for the origin and the intended audience. It’s the new clique thing for them, and they want to remake it in their own image.
Oh i don’t know. I think this is all a bit harsh. First, Moon Druid was poorly balanced in 2014. This one seems much more Druidic and much less problematic. And the numbers of forms given in the table are a lot, really.
But I think your aspersions at the end are really off base, especially considering the overlap of the teams that wrote the 2014 and 2024 versions of the druid.
I think overall the druid changes are for the better.
One quirk of DND is that you can't play it without a dungeon master. Making the role of dungeon master more accessible is a benefit to everyone who wants to play DND.
A lot of dungeon masters burn out from decision fatigue. Adding more clarity, and taking things off the dungeon masters plate seems to be a big emphasis of this rule redesign. I think that is a fantastic direction. And the team that brought us the best balanced and easiest to play version of the game in 2024 is poised to give us a DM renaissance in 2025.
I agree they killed the Druid. Classes and spells aren't supposed to be balanced at every level, the devs even said so. Fireball is supposed to be OP when you first get it and Wizards are supposed to be super squishy at tier 1, it's the way they were designed. This puts Druids on the back foot bigtime as well as all shapechanging spells. I'm curious to see all the changes but the more and more I read and watch, the more it looks like my tables with stay 5e and not migrate to One.
Id say you have a point except wizard is still busted beyond reason and they only got buffs.
ya the transforming conjure animals into bad spirit guardians was not a good change thematicly . too many creatures could be a problem but you could kill them easily with aoe id have rather put a limit on the animals rather then the uncreative solution of" hey, lets give druids a worse spirit guardians. not to mention shepherd is dead on arrival, backwards compatibility be damed .your biggest problem is having this attitude against druid while wizard basically just got buffs .
Wizard was the least changed class so far. And on that note, most of the broken things about wizards are spells. We have not seen the updates to spells that are the most broken yet.
It also depends on what you mean by busted. Lots of weapon damage builds by far out damage a straight wizard of any subclass just slinging spells. In fact most of the damage optimization builds I've seen are based around weapon attacks with maybe a sprinkling of (usually cha) caster just to cast one spell.
Obviously you have some very passionate feelings about the change, but as a lover of Druids AND a borderline fulltime DM, I like what I see here. Heck, the only thing I hate is having to pick between flavor and function at level 1 with the Warden/Magician thing. I love getting extra Nature Knowledge rolls but hate losing the Medium armor for it (I still probably will though).
Impartially, I'll look at the weaknesses the Moon Druid picked up with the change.
1) They have to wait until level 3 instead of 2 to get their bigger Wild Shapes. A single level CAN be a big deal but this obviously matters more of what level people start out as. I can see a lot more games starting at level 3 than in the past but this is harder to judge.
2) No longer picking up the Beast's HP. This is obviously, easily, the biggest (on paper) nerf to the class at its earliest levels. However, as I'll bring it up again in the Pros, its not as cut and dry.
3) Getting a limited number of Wild Shapes known.
4) No Elemental Form at level 10. This one sucks for anyone who loved those forms. I've got nothing to console that. I used them because they were good but I preferred being a Bear thematically in my head so I just made all the elemental forms bear shaped heh.
5) No longer getting all Wild Shapes back on a short rest is technically a nerf, though again this isn't 100%.
Now let's move onto the Positives (which, spoiler alert, I find outweigh the weaknesses/negatives by a good margin).
1) Riding off of the #2 spot above, you only get a Temp HP buff instead of the beast's full HP, however this has some upsides. The obvious are the weird cases that affect your total Hitpoints (Powerword Kill being infamous but smaller other weird things). Bigger than that, however, is the fact that at level 3, with a +3 to your Wisdom score, you're looking at a 16AC in most of your beast forms (unless they increased the AC of a bunch of beasts). Getting hit less is more HP. At level 3, that's 9 Temp HP which is a far cry from the 30 something they had, but it IS more fair at that level AND it doesn't make you lose your Wildshape for getting hit too much.
2) You can cast spells in this form. This is a bigger one than people might give credit to. No longer needing to hop out to get someone up with a Cure Wounds (now 2d8 at level 1) or Healing Word (now at 2d4). And that's just level 1 spells. IF it stays the same as the Playtest, you could also sac a spell slot for temp HP again as a free action by "shifting" back into the form, which is a buff from the previous version where you gained a flat 1d8 per spell level. Now you can Healing Word yourself as a bonus action for 2d4+Wis, OR just take the Temp HP of 9 (which is better on average but barely). I also thought they mentioned something about better concentration checks in that form but I don't know offhand.
3) You still likely are getting multiattack before everyone else at level 3 with your brown bear and whatever else, so you're still doing well for yourself.
4) At level 10, getting a free MistyStep with a rider (Advantage on next hit) can be a big deal. With spells active like Fount of Moonlight (which admittedly take an action but if like the playtest it lasts for 10 minutes, thats a lot of mileage and a great damage buff), you're hitting pretty heavy.
5) The level 14 ability is just better. Not much to say about that, really.
And now THE BIG UNKNOWNS
What no one knows but WotC is what the beasts are looking like. We don't know yet what we can turn into. We don't know what they can do. We don't know how well the CRs will scale. We could very well hit a block of the beasts not being able to hit anything which makes them back into the "this sucks" camp. We're stuck in a Wait and See for this, however. My guess is we're getting Owlbear as a form (cool). And they said they'll be great options all the way up. Could be true, could be smoke.
Just a long winded way of reminding people to wait for the full release, along with Playtesting, before passing judgment. There are going to be new people that see these forums and assume the worst due to Doomsayers when things might be better than ever.
From what I see, the new druid looks far and away better than the 2014 druid.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I'm also not a fan of the weird moon teleport at level 10 and wish the 10 and 14 features did something to enhance our shapeshifting in other ways. Maybe something like a partial shift to take a non-attack ability from a beast statblock in our caster-form like Keen Senses or a feature that lets us shift between beast forms while Wildshaped without expending a Wildshape use (but without getting the temp HP, so it is only used for changing between forms and doesn't affect the druid's HP pool).
That said, there are a lot of good things that came with the bad changes. Being able to know things about Nature and having Druidic give us Speak with Animal always prepared are both great and flavorful. The core class also supports the Moon Druid subclass more with all the damage modifiers you can pick up. Being able to cast in wildshape form as a Moon Druid is also HUGE and means we don't get crippled when we lose concentration in combat. If you get bonked you can just throw up one of the Moon Druid spells and keep going.
The "forms known" restriction doesn't really bother me because my druids tended to have a small, thematic list of forms they preferred anyway. I'm more worried the Player's Handbook won't have enough options for variety, but since we'll be able to pick through the Monster Manual too that won't be an issue.
You lost me when you put "people" in quotes. You don't think they're people?
Elemental wild shape was cool but overall moon druids were broken and this feature didn't really fit with the whole theme. Personally I think everything they did was important. I do hope they create a new elemental wild shape subclass in the future though. It's a cool concept.
I have mixed feelings about the upcoming changes to druids:
Happy:
It's complicated: wildshape.
Although I'm good with RAW Druid level - creature CR level rules, at my table, I will be allowing homebrew options for wildshape, such as:
The Druid is such a rich class, I still think there are many untapped druid sub-class options/themes that will need to be homebrewed.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Good thoughts. I agree with almost everything but I love the temp hit points in wild shape instead of giving them a whole second pool of hit points. It's much easier to handle, removes the overpowered issues of just having a ton of hit points and being nearly unkillable at 20. It also gives a ton of multi class potential. The only downside is its weaker but in a way that is good for the game.
Although I don't see the change to HPs during wild shaping to be the most significant change to the class, I do think it's a fairly big change. And here's why: typically in the game Druid's wildshape because of the following calculation: the decrease in DPR as a beast (compared to a Druid casting spells, etc.) is worth the trade-off for extra HPs. (That said, IIRC one of the new changes is that the Druid's AC during wildshape is the MAX of the Druid or the beast, which is a decent buff and changes the calculation slightly.) By assuming the HPs of the beast, wild shape was like Polymorph, a 4th level arcane spell. However, wildshape is more limited than Polymorph because it's limited to beasts only, which seems fairly balanced to me. The new change, however, just provides temporary HP, which is very common in D&D. For example, Heroism is a Level 1 (bard) spell and provides temporary hit points.
In short, while I don't think utility uses of wild shape will change at all, because of this change I think Druids (other than Moon Druids) will be wild shaping (a lot) less during combat. One circumstance where I do think the new change won't affect the game is when the Druid is close to death and just needs a (temporary) boost in HPs. At least the Druid has been given lots of different options for expending a use of wildshape, e.g., spell slots, casting Find Familiar, which will likely last longer since the new wildshape will last longer, etc. Still if you think wild shape is one of the most unique mechanics in the game, for one of the most unique classes in the game, the change to temp HPs is a decent nerf, and will be used less in game.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Polymorph is also beasts only, the tradeoffs are the CR and you can cast it on others for the cost of a fourth level spell. That said, I'm sure polymorph will change as it's currently the best "healing" spell in the game.
In my current campaign, I've literally never used wild shape in combat. With the change, I still don't think I will. I could see a scenario where I would cast lightning storm, then turn into a bird or something and fly away from enemies. You could do that previously but you'd risk being knocked out of wild shape and then take fall damage. Now, you'd just stay in the wild shape until you're at zero hp. Which I think in general is what makes it so much better mechanically for combat. It's easier to maintain the wild shape because the wild shape hit points are based on your hit points, which are pretty high compared to the creatures you turned into, and the temp hit points are based on your level. This smooths out the power curve. It also gets rid of the near indestructible issues with the moon druid.
Thanks for pointing out that polymorph is beasts only. I don't want to live in a world where druids only wildshape for utility lol
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Playtest stuff does not mention anywhere that Druids cannot use metal armour. Is that a buff then?
Life's hard - get a helmet!
To be precise, in the 2024 Druid preview video (here) JC only mentioned that a Warden can use "medium armor", which druids can use now. JC didn't specify that the armor that druids can use is metal. And unlike other classes, there is no post on the 2024 Druid class--although there is a post on wild shape and moon druids. So, strictly speaking whether the prohibition on metal armor is gone is TBD.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Based on this article that summarizes every change to the druid in the 2024 PHB, Warden druids can use medium armor and there is no mention of the metal armor prohibition:
https://www.wargamer.com/dnd/2024-druid
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023