Am I stupid or is capping out a wild shape form at CR 1 really sucky?? Is there something I’m missing here? How is a tiger gonna help kill a red dragon??
It sucks. I disagree that WS is only for utility for non-Moons. WS is intended to be the Channel Divinity for Druids, and WS is nowhere near as powerful as Channel Divinity. IMO Druids need more homebrew than any other class in D&D. It's up to you to develop fair, balanced homebrew stuff for Druids to make them comparable to Clerics, and other casters. In the campaign that I run, the entire WS table is different, including when a Druid accesses flying and swimming. And at higher levels, Druids can WS into a very small number of monstrosities or elementals.
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Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
It sucks. I disagree that WS is only for utility for non-Moons. WS is intended to be the Channel Divinity for Druids, and WS is nowhere near as powerful as Channel Divinity. IMO Druids need more homebrew than any other class in D&D. It's up to you to develop fair, balanced homebrew stuff for Druids to make them comparable to Clerics, and other casters. In the campaign that I run, the entire WS table is different, including when a Druid accesses flying and swimming. And at higher levels, Druids can WS into a very small number of monstrosities or elementals.
It sucks if you want it to be a combat feature. Turning into an animal and being able to get a familiar is actually really useful. I'd rather get that than a feature that only works against Undead, or deals/heals a tiny bit of damage. It doesn't sound to me that you don't think it's a utility feature, but that you want it to be more than that. If you want non-Moon druids to be able to use wild shape to help kill a red dragon, like OP said, then just give the Moon druid wild shape to every druid subclass.
I definitely want WS to have some non-utility value. To limit a 2nd level core class feature to utility alone is flawed. Can you think of another class where the defining/unique feature at level 2 is purely for utility (can't be use for combat, buffing or debuffing the self or others in combat, etc.)? The only thing comparable to pure utility in a class feature is the Wizard's Scholar feature at level 2. Some might argue that this is because the Wizard has access to the most spells, but IMO the Wizard's base class is due for an overhaul. Or perhaps the Rogue's Cunning Action, but Rogues get weapon mastery at L1.
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Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
The ability to cast a concentration spell and then turn into a bird and remove yourself from risk in combat is more than just utility. And even if it had no combat implications wild shape is an elite out of combat power.
I definitely want WS to have some non-utility value. To limit a 2nd level core class feature to utility alone is flawed. Can you think of another class where the defining/unique feature at level 2 is purely for utility (can't be use for combat, buffing or debuffing the self or others in combat, etc.)? The only thing comparable to pure utility in a class feature is the Wizard's Scholar feature at level 2. Some might argue that this is because the Wizard has access to the most spells, but IMO the Wizard's base class is due for an overhaul. Or perhaps the Rogue's Cunning Action, but Rogues get weapon mastery at L1.
Wild Shape is not the defining feature of druids. That's Spellcasting. And their spell list is pretty unique, so that's what sets them apart from other full casters. Wild Shape is a good utility feature, but hardly what makes druids what they are.
The ability to cast a concentration spell and then turn into a bird and remove yourself from risk in combat is more than just utility. And even if it had no combat implications wild shape is an elite out of combat power.
That would mean that you basically spend the whole combat doing nothing except for the first round. Many races can do the same without the need of Wild Shape and (very important) doing nothing during each of their turns except for concentrating on a spell. To each their own, of course, but I doubt most druid players find it fun to say "I pass" every time their turn comes.
I definitely want WS to have some non-utility value. To limit a 2nd level core class feature to utility alone is flawed. Can you think of another class where the defining/unique feature at level 2 is purely for utility (can't be use for combat, buffing or debuffing the self or others in combat, etc.)? The only thing comparable to pure utility in a class feature is the Wizard's Scholar feature at level 2. Some might argue that this is because the Wizard has access to the most spells, but IMO the Wizard's base class is due for an overhaul. Or perhaps the Rogue's Cunning Action, but Rogues get weapon mastery at L1.
Wild Shape is not the defining feature of druids. That's Spellcasting. And their spell list is pretty unique, so that's what sets them apart from other full casters. Wild Shape is a good utility feature, but hardly what makes druids what they are.
Lots of classes can cast spells, but they also have other core class features (besides spellcasting). And Wild shape is the defining 2nd level feature for Druids, like Channel Divinity for Clerics, spell points and metamagic for Sorcerers, focus points for Monks, etc. It's so important that it scales for the rest of the Druid's progression through levels.
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Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
I definitely want WS to have some non-utility value. To limit a 2nd level core class feature to utility alone is flawed. Can you think of another class where the defining/unique feature at level 2 is purely for utility (can't be use for combat, buffing or debuffing the self or others in combat, etc.)? The only thing comparable to pure utility in a class feature is the Wizard's Scholar feature at level 2. Some might argue that this is because the Wizard has access to the most spells, but IMO the Wizard's base class is due for an overhaul. Or perhaps the Rogue's Cunning Action, but Rogues get weapon mastery at L1.
Wild Shape is not the defining feature of druids. That's Spellcasting. And their spell list is pretty unique, so that's what sets them apart from other full casters. Wild Shape is a good utility feature, but hardly what makes druids what they are.
Lots of classes can cast spells, but they also have other core class features (besides spellcasting). And Wild shape is the defining 2nd level feature for Druids, like Channel Divinity for Clerics, spell points and metamagic for Sorcerers, focus points for Monks, etc. It's so important that it scales for the rest of the Druid's progression through levels.
I don't understand why it's so relevant that it's a 2nd level feature. Why is that supposed to be important? And you're cherry picking the ones that work for your argument. Rangers don't get a defining class feature at level 2. Neither do warlocks and wizards. And you yourself mentioned rogues. So why do we care that at level 2 they get this?
Druids are defined by their spellcasting. Lots of classes can cast spells, but none like the druid. Their spell list is very unique. Sure, rangers get a similar one, but they're half casters, so the way they play is completely different, and a huge amount of the spells they will never learn, or they will learn at levels that most campaigns never get to. By far the most defining feature for druids is spellcasting (including their spell list).
Sorcerers don't really have a unique spell list, so they need a more defining class feature to really be set apart from other classes. Same with warlocks. Even bards aren't exactly unique at spellcasting. Their list is fairly unique, but they share almost all their spells with other classes, so they rarely feel unique while casting spells when compared to others. So they also need other defining class features. Druids don't have that problem. Their spell list sets them apart from any other class, so they don't need Wild Shape to be up there with Metamagic, Monk's Focus, etc.
We don't need to go back and forth about this forever. I focus on 2nd level because this is when Clerics get Channel Divinity, which like WS is a feature which scales into later rounds. Clerics are the most similar class in the game to Druids. The impression I get is that you don't have a problem with WS RAW as the Druid's 2nd level feature. Everyone gets to run the game they want at their table. IMO no two tables are the same, and that's a good thing.
I definitely want WS to have some non-utility value. To limit a 2nd level core class feature to utility alone is flawed. Can you think of another class where the defining/unique feature at level 2 is purely for utility (can't be use for combat, buffing or debuffing the self or others in combat, etc.)? The only thing comparable to pure utility in a class feature is the Wizard's Scholar feature at level 2. Some might argue that this is because the Wizard has access to the most spells, but IMO the Wizard's base class is due for an overhaul. Or perhaps the Rogue's Cunning Action, but Rogues get weapon mastery at L1.
It's a good thing that Wild Shape, as presented in the 2024 PH, always has some non-utility value to it.
Circle of the Land (2024) gets Land's Aid
Circle of the Moon (2024) gets Circle Forms
Circle of the Sea (2024) gets Wrath of the Sea
Circle of the Stars (2024) gets Starry Form
And then there's Tasha's, which has Halo of Spores (Circle of Spores) and Summon Wildfire Spirit (Circle of Wildfire). There are many druid subclasses which modify Wild Shape by granting additional potential uses for it.
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Am I stupid or is capping out a wild shape form at CR 1 really sucky?? Is there something I’m missing here? How is a tiger gonna help kill a red dragon??
Wild Shape isn't supposed to help during combat, unless you're a Circle of the Moon druid. It's a utility feature.
It sucks. I disagree that WS is only for utility for non-Moons. WS is intended to be the Channel Divinity for Druids, and WS is nowhere near as powerful as Channel Divinity. IMO Druids need more homebrew than any other class in D&D. It's up to you to develop fair, balanced homebrew stuff for Druids to make them comparable to Clerics, and other casters. In the campaign that I run, the entire WS table is different, including when a Druid accesses flying and swimming. And at higher levels, Druids can WS into a very small number of monstrosities or elementals.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
It sucks if you want it to be a combat feature. Turning into an animal and being able to get a familiar is actually really useful. I'd rather get that than a feature that only works against Undead, or deals/heals a tiny bit of damage. It doesn't sound to me that you don't think it's a utility feature, but that you want it to be more than that. If you want non-Moon druids to be able to use wild shape to help kill a red dragon, like OP said, then just give the Moon druid wild shape to every druid subclass.
I definitely want WS to have some non-utility value. To limit a 2nd level core class feature to utility alone is flawed. Can you think of another class where the defining/unique feature at level 2 is purely for utility (can't be use for combat, buffing or debuffing the self or others in combat, etc.)? The only thing comparable to pure utility in a class feature is the Wizard's Scholar feature at level 2. Some might argue that this is because the Wizard has access to the most spells, but IMO the Wizard's base class is due for an overhaul. Or perhaps the Rogue's Cunning Action, but Rogues get weapon mastery at L1.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
The ability to cast a concentration spell and then turn into a bird and remove yourself from risk in combat is more than just utility. And even if it had no combat implications wild shape is an elite out of combat power.
Wild Shape is not the defining feature of druids. That's Spellcasting. And their spell list is pretty unique, so that's what sets them apart from other full casters. Wild Shape is a good utility feature, but hardly what makes druids what they are.
That would mean that you basically spend the whole combat doing nothing except for the first round. Many races can do the same without the need of Wild Shape and (very important) doing nothing during each of their turns except for concentrating on a spell. To each their own, of course, but I doubt most druid players find it fun to say "I pass" every time their turn comes.
Lots of classes can cast spells, but they also have other core class features (besides spellcasting). And Wild shape is the defining 2nd level feature for Druids, like Channel Divinity for Clerics, spell points and metamagic for Sorcerers, focus points for Monks, etc. It's so important that it scales for the rest of the Druid's progression through levels.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
I don't understand why it's so relevant that it's a 2nd level feature. Why is that supposed to be important? And you're cherry picking the ones that work for your argument. Rangers don't get a defining class feature at level 2. Neither do warlocks and wizards. And you yourself mentioned rogues. So why do we care that at level 2 they get this?
Druids are defined by their spellcasting. Lots of classes can cast spells, but none like the druid. Their spell list is very unique. Sure, rangers get a similar one, but they're half casters, so the way they play is completely different, and a huge amount of the spells they will never learn, or they will learn at levels that most campaigns never get to. By far the most defining feature for druids is spellcasting (including their spell list).
Sorcerers don't really have a unique spell list, so they need a more defining class feature to really be set apart from other classes. Same with warlocks. Even bards aren't exactly unique at spellcasting. Their list is fairly unique, but they share almost all their spells with other classes, so they rarely feel unique while casting spells when compared to others. So they also need other defining class features. Druids don't have that problem. Their spell list sets them apart from any other class, so they don't need Wild Shape to be up there with Metamagic, Monk's Focus, etc.
We don't need to go back and forth about this forever. I focus on 2nd level because this is when Clerics get Channel Divinity, which like WS is a feature which scales into later rounds. Clerics are the most similar class in the game to Druids. The impression I get is that you don't have a problem with WS RAW as the Druid's 2nd level feature. Everyone gets to run the game they want at their table. IMO no two tables are the same, and that's a good thing.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
It's a good thing that Wild Shape, as presented in the 2024 PH, always has some non-utility value to it.
And then there's Tasha's, which has Halo of Spores (Circle of Spores) and Summon Wildfire Spirit (Circle of Wildfire). There are many druid subclasses which modify Wild Shape by granting additional potential uses for it.