Checking Sage Advice from Jeremy Crawford regarding Eldritch Strike, it seems it's been confirmed that Eldritch Strike does cause disadvantage on saving throws on subsequent saving throws caused by an ongoing spell, which was cast by the Eldritch Knight.
Do people in general argee with this? It makes the feature more worth while for the majority of Eldritch Knights that haven'tt pumped their intelligence score. I assume most EKs are running with 12-14ish intelligence.
While I almost never accept anything Jeremy Crawford has to say as correct, it looks like he may have been right for a change. Eldritch Strike happens automatically when your weapon strikes hit, so if there was a pre-existing spell going, then you hit them, they would be at Disadvantage for one save that happened after the strike and before the end of your turn. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
Since EK are limited to Evocation and Abjuration likely not....
I think now that Tasha's Brew is available now as a 1st level spell maybe it will be more though....as you could just make them keep taking the acid damage until they spend an action to wipe it off.
I have a hard time thinking of what spell this would be best for that EK actually get in a reasonable play time (levels 3-10).
Yeah. The timing is odd. I couldn't think of any instance where the victim of a spell already in place would be making a save outside of their own turn, but if there is one, I can't see any harm in Eldritch Strike imposing Disadvantage on it.
Yeah. The timing is odd. I couldn't think of any instance where the victim of a spell already in place would be making a save outside of their own turn, but if there is one, I can't see any harm in Eldritch Strike imposing Disadvantage on it.
While I almost never accept anything Jeremy Crawford has to say as correct, it looks like he may have been right for a change. Eldritch Strike happens automatically when your weapon strikes hit, so if there was a pre-existing spell going, then you hit them, they would be at Disadvantage for one save that happened after the strike and before the *end of your turn*. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
Does that come up often?
It’s the end of your next turn, not the existing turn.
EK Turn 1: Hold Person (Bad Guy normal save), Improved War Magic bonus action attack with Eldritch Strike.
Bad Guy Turn 1: Bad Guy Disadvantage save to escape Hold Person.
EK Turn 2: Extra Attacks with Eldritch Strike.
Bad Guy Turn 2: Disadvantage or Normal save to escape Hold Person?
Because if it’s Disadvantage on the continued save… that’s amazing!
Scenario 2. Disadvantage on the subsequent non-initial spell saves to free himself from Hold Person. As I understand it. This is what I think Crawford confirmed in those tweets. Basically, as long as you keep landing hits on the same target in each round, the target will have disadvantage on any spell effect you, the EK, put on the target.
While I almost never accept anything Jeremy Crawford has to say as correct, it looks like he may have been right for a change. Eldritch Strike happens automatically when your weapon strikes hit, so if there was a pre-existing spell going, then you hit them, they would be at Disadvantage for one save that happened after the strike and before the *end of your turn*. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
Does that come up often?
It’s the end of your next turn, not the existing turn.
"before the end of your next turn." So it also counts in the same turn your doing the attack. IE. Bonus Action spell, Reaction spell or just good old Action Surge: Action Spell.
A Mind Control effect? Hm... Eldritch Knights cast Wizard spells, and Wizards don't get many spells that inflict the Charmed condition; Fast Friends and Incite Greed. Both are 3rd level spells, both require Concentration, and in both cases, if you or any of your allies attacks the target, they get Advantage on their save when hit, In which case, all your Eldritch Strike is doing for you is canceling out their Advantage.
Eldritch Strike in general seems to have been designed to be used for canceling out the Advantage things get on spells that are cast on them when you attack them, if they get a save. Letting it work on pre-existing spells seems like what it was intended for all along. If anything, the ability needs some buffs.
Since EK are limited to Evocation and Abjuration likely not....
I think now that Tasha's Brew is available now as a 1st level spell maybe it will be more though....as you could just make them keep taking the acid damage until they spend an action to wipe it off.
I have a hard time thinking of what spell this would be best for that EK actually get in a reasonable play time (levels 3-10).
Hold Person and Blindness/Deafness come to mind. I haven't really looked for others.
"The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic."
EK Turn 1: Hold Person (Bad Guy normal save), Improved War Magic bonus action attack with Eldritch Strike.
Bad Guy Turn 1: Bad Guy Disadvantage save to escape Hold Person.
EK Turn 2: Extra Attacks with Eldritch Strike.
Bad Guy Turn 2: Disadvantage or Normal save to escape Hold Person?
Because if it’s Disadvantage on the continued save… that’s amazing!
Scenario 2. Disadvantage on the subsequent non-initial spell saves to free himself from Hold Person. As I understand it. This is what I think Crawford confirmed in those tweets. Basically, as long as you keep landing hits on the same target in each round, the target will have disadvantage on any spell effect you, the EK, put on the target.
There's a couple options.
1. Cast Hold Person
2. If they fail their save, action surge and then hit them with your weapon attacks (with advantage and auto crit). They will have disadvantage on their next save.
or
1. (round 1) Hit them with your weapon attack.
2. (round 2) Repeat above, only they get disadvantage on their first save.
The feature seems pretty hard coded that its a save associated with a spell you cast after the target has been hit by an attack invoking the Eldritch Strike feature. Even the first answer Crawford gives makes that clear.
The feature seems pretty hard coded that its a save associated with a spell you cast after the target has been hit by an attack invoking the Eldritch Strike feature. Even the first answer Crawford gives makes that clear.
It literally says:
Eldritch Strike imposes disadvantage on the next saving throw the target makes against a spell you cast. This benefit expires at the end of your next turn, and it works against a spell you cast at any point. The key is that the save is made before the end of your next turn.
(1) The ES benefit expires at the end of your next turn
(2) It works against a spell you cast at any point
(3) The save must be made before the end of your next turn.
You: "Even the first answer Crawford gives makes that clear."
Ummm... Here's his first answer to a different question: "When the fighter's Eldritch Strike is activated, its benefit lasts until the end of your next turn, which means the feature is designed to benefit you at some point in that time frame."
Copy and paste the part where he says it only works on a spell cast after the weapon attack. Copy and paste, please.
If it works against a spell you cast at any point, casting a spell while the feat is active is indeed necessary.
It does not say it can be used for a saving throw apart from the casting of a spell. The language would specifically say that if it was allowed.
Edit: Just ask yourself this; if its just about a saving throw attached to any spell you have cast that is ongoing does in not just say "disadvantage on saving throws against your spells"? Why specifically the language of "casting"?
If it works against a spell you cast at any point, casting a spell while the feat is active is indeed necessary.
It does not say it can be used for a saving throw apart from the casting of a spell. The language would specifically say that if it was allowed.
Edit: Just ask yourself this; if its just about a saving throw attached to any spell you have cast that is ongoing does in not just say "disadvantage on saving throws against your spells"? Why specifically the language of "casting"?
It's literally not necessary. It just has to be from a spell that YOU cast "at any point." Only the *save* has to happen while ES is active. You just keep adding things he did not say.
"It does not say it can be used for a saving throw apart from the casting of a spell."
Eldritch Strike imposes disadvantage on the next saving throw the target makes against a spell you cast. This benefit expires at the end of your next turn, and it works against a spell you cast at any point. The key is that the save is made before the end of your next turn.
That is already a subset of what was already specified. Let's say you successfully hit someone with Hold Person, and the next round you hit it with a weapon attack.
(a) It's a spell you cast
(b) The point at which you cast it was last round, which a subset of "any" point.
It meets both criteria Crawford provided. Here's the crutch of the disagreement.
He unequivocally said AT ANY POINT, and you keep trying to ADD ON "after you make the melee attack" and he never, EVER says that.
Eldridge knight fighters get Eldridge strike at level 10 this says "a creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against the spell you cast". is this strictly for spells or does it also include cantrips? same with the Eldridge knight ability that "you can change out any spell for another you have a spell slot for, when you level up".
Eldridge knight fighters get Eldridge strike at level 10 this says "a creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against the spell you cast". is this strictly for spells or does it also include cantrips? same with the Eldridge knight ability that "you can change out any spell for another you have a spell slot for, when you level up".
Yes, Eldritch Strike applies to cantrips, because cantrips are spells. Everything that refers to "spells" includes cantrips, unless it says otherwise.
The other feature you're talking about - the ability to swap out a spell when you level up - says that it must be a spell of a level you have a spell slot for. Since cantrips don't have a spell slot level, this doesn't apply to cantrips.
The 2024 version of the Eldritch Knight does include a separate feature that allows swapping out a cantrip when you level up (so you can do both) but the 2014 version does not.
Checking Sage Advice from Jeremy Crawford regarding Eldritch Strike, it seems it's been confirmed that Eldritch Strike does cause disadvantage on saving throws on subsequent saving throws caused by an ongoing spell, which was cast by the Eldritch Knight.
Do people in general argee with this? It makes the feature more worth while for the majority of Eldritch Knights that haven'tt pumped their intelligence score. I assume most EKs are running with 12-14ish intelligence.
Source:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/can-eldritch-strike-impose-disadvantage-on-a-saving-throw-for-a-spell-you-had-previously-cast/
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
While I almost never accept anything Jeremy Crawford has to say as correct, it looks like he may have been right for a change. Eldritch Strike happens automatically when your weapon strikes hit, so if there was a pre-existing spell going, then you hit them, they would be at Disadvantage for one save that happened after the strike and before the end of your turn. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
Does that come up often?
<Insert clever signature here>
Since EK are limited to Evocation and Abjuration likely not....
I think now that Tasha's Brew is available now as a 1st level spell maybe it will be more though....as you could just make them keep taking the acid damage until they spend an action to wipe it off.
I have a hard time thinking of what spell this would be best for that EK actually get in a reasonable play time (levels 3-10).
I don't see any balance issues with it either. It seems it's actually kinda necessary to make the feature perform as intended.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Yeah. The timing is odd. I couldn't think of any instance where the victim of a spell already in place would be making a save outside of their own turn, but if there is one, I can't see any harm in Eldritch Strike imposing Disadvantage on it.
<Insert clever signature here>
Could work well with a MC perhaps?
So what are the results of this scenario?
EK Turn 1: Hold Person (Bad Guy normal save), Improved War Magic bonus action attack with Eldritch Strike.
Bad Guy Turn 1: Bad Guy Disadvantage save to escape Hold Person.
EK Turn 2: Extra Attacks with Eldritch Strike.
Bad Guy Turn 2: Disadvantage or Normal save to escape Hold Person?
Because if it’s Disadvantage on the continued save… that’s amazing!
It’s the end of your next turn, not the existing turn.
Scenario 2. Disadvantage on the subsequent non-initial spell saves to free himself from Hold Person. As I understand it. This is what I think Crawford confirmed in those tweets. Basically, as long as you keep landing hits on the same target in each round, the target will have disadvantage on any spell effect you, the EK, put on the target.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
"before the end of your next turn." So it also counts in the same turn your doing the attack. IE. Bonus Action spell, Reaction spell or just good old Action Surge: Action Spell.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
A Mind Control effect? Hm... Eldritch Knights cast Wizard spells, and Wizards don't get many spells that inflict the Charmed condition; Fast Friends and Incite Greed. Both are 3rd level spells, both require Concentration, and in both cases, if you or any of your allies attacks the target, they get Advantage on their save when hit, In which case, all your Eldritch Strike is doing for you is canceling out their Advantage.
Eldritch Strike in general seems to have been designed to be used for canceling out the Advantage things get on spells that are cast on them when you attack them, if they get a save. Letting it work on pre-existing spells seems like what it was intended for all along. If anything, the ability needs some buffs.
<Insert clever signature here>
Hold Person and Blindness/Deafness come to mind. I haven't really looked for others.
"The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic."
There's a couple options.
1. Cast Hold Person
2. If they fail their save, action surge and then hit them with your weapon attacks (with advantage and auto crit). They will have disadvantage on their next save.
or
1. (round 1) Hit them with your weapon attack.
2. (round 2) Repeat above, only they get disadvantage on their first save.
The feature seems pretty hard coded that its a save associated with a spell you cast after the target has been hit by an attack invoking the Eldritch Strike feature. Even the first answer Crawford gives makes that clear.
It literally says:
Eldritch Strike imposes disadvantage on the next saving throw the target makes against a spell you cast. This benefit expires at the end of your next turn, and it works against a spell you cast at any point. The key is that the save is made before the end of your next turn.
(1) The ES benefit expires at the end of your next turn
(2) It works against a spell you cast at any point
(3) The save must be made before the end of your next turn.
You: "Even the first answer Crawford gives makes that clear."
Ummm... Here's his first answer to a different question: "When the fighter's Eldritch Strike is activated, its benefit lasts until the end of your next turn, which means the feature is designed to benefit you at some point in that time frame."
Copy and paste the part where he says it only works on a spell cast after the weapon attack. Copy and paste, please.
If it works against a spell you cast at any point, casting a spell while the feat is active is indeed necessary.
It does not say it can be used for a saving throw apart from the casting of a spell. The language would specifically say that if it was allowed.
Edit: Just ask yourself this; if its just about a saving throw attached to any spell you have cast that is ongoing does in not just say "disadvantage on saving throws against your spells"? Why specifically the language of "casting"?
It's literally not necessary. It just has to be from a spell that YOU cast "at any point." Only the *save* has to happen while ES is active. You just keep adding things he did not say.
"It does not say it can be used for a saving throw apart from the casting of a spell."
Eldritch Strike imposes disadvantage on the next saving throw the target makes against a spell you cast. This benefit expires at the end of your next turn, and it works against a spell you cast at any point. The key is that the save is made before the end of your next turn.
That is already a subset of what was already specified. Let's say you successfully hit someone with Hold Person, and the next round you hit it with a weapon attack.
(a) It's a spell you cast
(b) The point at which you cast it was last round, which a subset of "any" point.
It meets both criteria Crawford provided. Here's the crutch of the disagreement.
He unequivocally said AT ANY POINT, and you keep trying to ADD ON "after you make the melee attack" and he never, EVER says that.
Eldridge knight fighters get Eldridge strike at level 10 this says "a creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against the spell you cast". is this strictly for spells or does it also include cantrips? same with the Eldridge knight ability that "you can change out any spell for another you have a spell slot for, when you level up".
Yes, Eldritch Strike applies to cantrips, because cantrips are spells. Everything that refers to "spells" includes cantrips, unless it says otherwise.
The other feature you're talking about - the ability to swap out a spell when you level up - says that it must be a spell of a level you have a spell slot for. Since cantrips don't have a spell slot level, this doesn't apply to cantrips.
The 2024 version of the Eldritch Knight does include a separate feature that allows swapping out a cantrip when you level up (so you can do both) but the 2014 version does not.
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