EK for me is odd....its a fighter subclass that focuses on magic but the type of magic you can pick is evocation and abjuration. The combination of the type of spells available to you at 1st and 2nd spell level for evocation and the fact your INT is likely lower than a wizard your spells lack punch and you are generally better off just attacking twice anyway.
So then the "best' use of your spells is generally abjuration (Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, etc..) and with that it makes it kind of an odd defensive based subclass.
If I wanted to play that I would likely just go with paladin as they play that role a lot better and have nova damage output that far outpaces EK.
With EK, even if you have high int you're also just not going to have high level spells. You won't be able to up cast the damage spells you do get much and won't get access to things like fireball until level 13.
Illusion and enchantment I think make sense for arcane trickster, but I agree evocation is a little odd for EK. On the one hand I get that EK and arcane trickster are 'third casters' getting their magic from as subclass, but the school limitations always felt a little unnecessary to me. Not getting second level spells until level 7 and third level spells until level 13 honestly felt like enough of a limitation in and of itself. Would their heavily slowed spell progression compared to full or even half casters really be overpowered without the school limitations on most of their leveled spells?
They do both have means of giving enemies disadvantage on a saving throw of their spells, which can help some with the int issue if you don't invest into it, but depending on the spell and the enemy that can be tricky even with disadvantage if your modifier isn't great.
When it comes to mixing martial and magical prowess I think I prefer the bladesinger, hexblade and/or pact of the blade, or paladin etc over EK. Or, specifically with archery, arcane archer which does the magic side in a unique way instead of handing you low level wizard spells.
With EK, even if you have high int you're also just not going to have high level spells. You won't be able to up cast the damage spells you do get much and won't get access to things like fireball until level 13.
Illusion and enchantment I think make sense for arcane trickster, but I agree evocation is a little odd for EK. On the one hand I get that EK and arcane trickster are 'third casters' getting their magic from as subclass, but the school limitations always felt a little unnecessary to me. Not getting second level spells until level 7 and third level spells until level 13 honestly felt like enough of a limitation in and of itself. Would their heavily slowed spell progression compared to full or even half casters really be overpowered without the school limitations on most of their leveled spells?
They do both have means of giving enemies disadvantage on a saving throw of their spells, which can help some with the int issue if you don't invest into it, but depending on the spell and the enemy that can be tricky even with disadvantage if your modifier isn't great.
When it comes to mixing martial and magical prowess I think I prefer the bladesinger, hexblade and/or pact of the blade, or paladin etc over EK. Or, specifically with archery, arcane archer which does the magic side in a unique way instead of handing you low level wizard spells.
Yeah thats why my main fix for both classes is you get to pick the spell schools you are locked into or just dont have the limitation.
With EK, even if you have high int you're also just not going to have high level spells. You won't be able to up cast the damage spells you do get much and won't get access to things like fireball until level 13.
Illusion and enchantment I think make sense for arcane trickster, but I agree evocation is a little odd for EK. On the one hand I get that EK and arcane trickster are 'third casters' getting their magic from as subclass, but the school limitations always felt a little unnecessary to me. Not getting second level spells until level 7 and third level spells until level 13 honestly felt like enough of a limitation in and of itself. Would their heavily slowed spell progression compared to full or even half casters really be overpowered without the school limitations on most of their leveled spells?
They do both have means of giving enemies disadvantage on a saving throw of their spells, which can help some with the int issue if you don't invest into it, but depending on the spell and the enemy that can be tricky even with disadvantage if your modifier isn't great.
When it comes to mixing martial and magical prowess I think I prefer the bladesinger, hexblade and/or pact of the blade, or paladin etc over EK. Or, specifically with archery, arcane archer which does the magic side in a unique way instead of handing you low level wizard spells.
Yeah thats why my main fix for both classes is you get to pick the spell schools you are locked into or just dont have the limitation.
That doesn't actually fix the class at all. It's core issues with not blending in spell casting all that well is still going to get into the EK's way. Just like it does with the AT (and yes it does get in the AT's way). And the Evocation School is not a big problem on the EK. A lot of spells that people would pick for such a character are already either Evocation or Abjuration to begin with. And they can get a few spells that are outside of that. It may only be 4 or 5 spells but they are there. many of the Spells that people tout around for Martial Builds with Spell Caster Increases are either Evocation or Abjuration. There are a couple exceptions but those two schools hold the majority of them.
The only reason I can seem to find why people like to Claim that Evocation and Abjuration doesn't work (despite being the attack and defense schools of magic), Seems to be they think of things like fireball. Decide it's lackluster at the level you get it at so EK must not really work because of that. When that isn't the EK's core problem.
The EK and the AT have the same problem. You have to stop being one class to be the other. They don't really blend so The combination is always going to get into your way. The AT's seem like they aren't so bad because most people think of something like Illusion in a more non-combat sense and the base rogue in a combat sense, despite that not being all they are. But they still get in the way. And AT's magic has an actually higher bar to overcome to actually be truely useful unless the DM is always goign to handwave it away as successful. Concentration is often an issue with AT's spells. Many Spells for both Schools actually have Save DC's (or an equivalent) unless your only interested in casting maybe half a dozen low level spells for the entirety of your career. utility spells like Detect Magic, comprehend languages, and Identify aren't any easier to come by for the AT than they are for the EK, and are arguably more needed by the AT. The Only thing that the AT has that the EK doesn't have, is having more of the types of spells that people like to try and cheese to do way more than they actually do and see if the DM will let them get away with it.
That's part of what ultimately got me to redo my archer character from arcane trickster to arcane archer. (It would have been a bit better if she were a melee focused rogue, since booming blade could add a bit of magic to her melee attacks, but I didn't quite like how the magic side of things and the rogue/archer side of things felt like two useful but entirely separate skillsets that didn't work together at all. Out of combat they played well together, having the ability to say cast invisibility or disguise self when doing roguey stuff, but in combat I didn't like the divide.
Though there was some good stuff, mage hand legeredemain for example? Fits in great with rogue. Spell ambush? Works great with bonus action hide, but a lot of it did still end up feeling separate.
With EK, even if you have high int you're also just not going to have high level spells. You won't be able to up cast the damage spells you do get much and won't get access to things like fireball until level 13.
Illusion and enchantment I think make sense for arcane trickster, but I agree evocation is a little odd for EK. On the one hand I get that EK and arcane trickster are 'third casters' getting their magic from as subclass, but the school limitations always felt a little unnecessary to me. Not getting second level spells until level 7 and third level spells until level 13 honestly felt like enough of a limitation in and of itself. Would their heavily slowed spell progression compared to full or even half casters really be overpowered without the school limitations on most of their leveled spells?
They do both have means of giving enemies disadvantage on a saving throw of their spells, which can help some with the int issue if you don't invest into it, but depending on the spell and the enemy that can be tricky even with disadvantage if your modifier isn't great.
When it comes to mixing martial and magical prowess I think I prefer the bladesinger, hexblade and/or pact of the blade, or paladin etc over EK. Or, specifically with archery, arcane archer which does the magic side in a unique way instead of handing you low level wizard spells.
Yeah thats why my main fix for both classes is you get to pick the spell schools you are locked into or just dont have the limitation.
That doesn't actually fix the class at all. It's core issues with not blending in spell casting all that well is still going to get into the EK's way. Just like it does with the AT (and yes it does get in the AT's way). And the Evocation School is not a big problem on the EK. A lot of spells that people would pick for such a character are already either Evocation or Abjuration to begin with. And they can get a few spells that are outside of that. It may only be 4 or 5 spells but they are there. many of the Spells that people tout around for Martial Builds with Spell Caster Increases are either Evocation or Abjuration. There are a couple exceptions but those two schools hold the majority of them.
The only reason I can seem to find why people like to Claim that Evocation and Abjuration doesn't work (despite being the attack and defense schools of magic), Seems to be they think of things like fireball. Decide it's lackluster at the level you get it at so EK must not really work because of that. When that isn't the EK's core problem.
The EK and the AT have the same problem. You have to stop being one class to be the other. They don't really blend so The combination is always going to get into your way. The AT's seem like they aren't so bad because most people think of something like Illusion in a more non-combat sense and the base rogue in a combat sense, despite that not being all they are. But they still get in the way. And AT's magic has an actually higher bar to overcome to actually be truely useful unless the DM is always goign to handwave it away as successful. Concentration is often an issue with AT's spells. Many Spells for both Schools actually have Save DC's (or an equivalent) unless your only interested in casting maybe half a dozen low level spells for the entirety of your career. utility spells like Detect Magic, comprehend languages, and Identify aren't any easier to come by for the AT than they are for the EK, and are arguably more needed by the AT. The Only thing that the AT has that the EK doesn't have, is having more of the types of spells that people like to try and cheese to do way more than they actually do and see if the DM will let them get away with it.
If you could actually use spells that help your martial abilities it would definitely fix it.
The problem being relying on spells that are 99% damage and rely on your spellcasting ability mod (Evocation) it's not great...
Misty step, shadow blade, blink, fly, haste, invisibility.... These are all super excellent for the fighter but they can't pick them unless it's a "special" level which is dumb
on the topic of spell selection and EK, I do feel like fey touched almost feels mandatory. Your spell and slot selection is so limited, so fey touched actually helps a ton in that regard by giving you what is essentially two whole extra spell slots to 1st and 2nd level. Your spell from fey touched can be a big deal too, like hex/hunter's mark, bless, or whatever. Those spells don't even require your spellcasting modifier to be effective.
This is especially more evident when you do finally access 2nd lvl spells, as it almost feels like misty step is a "must-have," so this actually opens up the options to spells like blur, spider climb, invisibility, magic weapon (for low magic campaigns where magic items are rare). None of those options rely on your INT. Even at this level within the school of abjuration/evocation, you can take spells like darkness for situations when an enemy spellcaster is giving a lot of trouble and you need to block their line of sight, or warding wind. Again, effective, practical choices that don't rely on your INT.
You can have an effective suite of spells that do not rely on your INT! A good deal are just buffs that enhance your martial prowess. Though, more than that, they provide a way to exponentially increase your utility as a party member; that's far more you can say for any other fighter.
I've played a whole bunch of the different Fighter sub-classes, so I'll try and mention them as briefly as I can:
Cavalier: This is the one that surprised me the most in a good way, as it's fun to play with or without a mount (though of course you get more out of it with a mount). Its 3rd and 6th level main abilities are both long rest limited, but quite strategic in how you want to use them so this isn't necessarily a huge problem as they also kind of add onto each other (they both make allies harder to hit, so you can stack them or use the more appropriate one in each case). It's not one of the stronger sub-classes overall, though it's pretty good when it hits 10th as it basically gets Sentinel for free, but I was surprised at how much I enjoyed playing it. My main criticism is it doesn't fit the theme that much (it just has surprisingly fun features).
Eldritch Knight: Wasn't sure whether to mention this one or not, but I was kind of surprised in both good and bad ways with it. The addition of its spellcasting is great, especially with SCAGtrips earlier on, and also when you can start casting Shadow Blade, but its other features can be a bit "meh". War Magic feels like a long two level wait after you get Extra Attack before you can do cantrip + attack properly (and it doesn't scale with Extra Attack), Eldritch Strike is very situational, Arcane Charge is great and Improved War Magic is okay but very late. Again, the spellcasting is great, so it's a solid sub-class with the right spell choices no matter what, but it feels like a lot of its later features (except maybe Arcane Charge) are things it should get earlier in some form and should scale better.
Gunslinger (Critical Role): This is a bit of a weird mess with the custom firearm rules and features that mostly just counteract them; a Battle Master with DMG Firearms proficiency and the Gunner feat will be more fun for most people. I ended up making my own sub-class to try to keep the ideas that work and make it more unique within the DMG firearms rules instead, as I love the theme. Not that I want to be too harsh on the CR version; it's very much a product of being ported from Pathfinder, but it seemed awesome in the show but playing it myself just never felt good.
Purple Dragon Knight: I've seen lots of people complain about this sub-class, but I actually kind of like it. Its main features at 3rd, 10th and 15th level all build on Fighter core abilities (Second Wind, Action Surge and Indomitable respectively) to make them even better. The main issue is 7th level where you only get an out of combat bonus, but it's actually not a bad bonus (skill proficiency and expertise in persuasion), but Samurai's Elegant Courtier is arguably better as it's a slightly lesser version that also gives Wisdom save proficiency.
Samurai: This sub-class seems kind of cool, though the three uses per long rest limit on Fighting Spirit seriously limits it. If it were per short rest it would be so much better (and improve Rapid Strike at the same time) but I'd still prefer to just have a Battle Master with Feinting Attack or Precision Attack personally, as you can always take Skill Expert for more skill proficiencies, and a custom background can get you extra tools if you need them for your theme.
I've played Battle Master and Champion as well; both are solid sub-classes though Champion is a bit boring IMO (it's more fun to have manoeuvres to pick from), so neither was really surprising. I haven't played Arcane Archer and haven't properly played Psi Warrior or Rune Knight in their final forms.
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I've played a whole bunch of the different Fighter sub-class, so I'll try and mention them as briefly as I can:
Cavalier: This is the one that surprised me the most in a good way, as it's fun to play with or without a mount (though of course you get more out of it with a mount). Its 3rd and 6th level main abilities are both long rest limited, but quite strategic in how you want to use them so this isn't necessarily a huge problem as they also kind of add onto each other (they both make allies harder to hit, so you can stack them or use the more appropriate one in each case).
Eldritch Knight: Wasn't sure whether to mention this one or not, but I was kind of surprised in both good and bad ways with it. The addition of its spellcasting is great, especially with SCAGtrips earlier on, and also when you can start casting Shadow Blade, but its other features can be a bit "meh". War Magic feels like a long two level wait after you get Extra Attack before you can do cantrip + attack properly (and it doesn't scale with Extra Attack), Eldritch Strike is very situational, Arcane Charge is great and Improved War Magic is okay but very late. Again, the spellcasting is great, so it's a solid sub-class with the right spell choices no matter what, but it feels like a lot of its later features (except maybe Arcane Charge) are things it should get earlier in some form and should scale better.
Gunslinger (Critical Role): This is a bit of a weird mess with the custom firearm rules and features that mostly just counteract them; a Battle Master with DMG Firearms proficiency and the Gunner feat will be more fun for most people. I ended up making my own sub-class to try to keep the ideas that work and make it more unique within the DMG firearms rules instead.
Purple Dragon Knight: I've seen lots of people complain about this sub-class, but I actually kind of like it. Its main features at 3rd, 10th and 15th level all build on Fighter core abilities (Second Wind, Action Surge and Indomitable respectively) to make them even better. The main issue is 7th level where you only get an out of combat bonus, but it's actually not a bad bonus (skill proficiency and expertise in persuasion), but Samurai's Elegant Courtier is arguably better as it's a slightly lesser version that also gives Wisdom save proficiency.
Samurai: This sub-class seems kind of cool, though the three uses per long rest limit on long rest seriously limits it. If it were per short rest it would be so much better (and improve Rapid Strike at the same time) but I'd still prefer to just have a Battle Master with Feinting Attack or Precision Attack personally, as you can always take Skill Expert for more skill proficiencies, and a custom background can get you extra tools if you need them for your theme.
I've played Battle Master and Champion as well; both are solid sub-classes though Champion is a bit boring IMO (it's more fun to have manoeuvres to pick from), but neither was really surprising. I haven't played Arcane Archer and haven't properly played Psi Warrior or Rune Knight in their final forms.
Your gunfighter subclass is so much better than mercer's version! Its a bit complicated but I like that about it....The fact that upgrades have real costs and actual components required makes the class feel more complete. I like how you have Indominable renew a grit point as well...I love when subclass abilities mesh well with existing class features.
I agree about PDK myself....I actually think the subclass isn't terrible. I like it better than Champion and Samurai myself.
I've played a whole bunch of the different Fighter sub-class, so I'll try and mention them as briefly as I can:
Cavalier: This is the one that surprised me the most in a good way, as it's fun to play with or without a mount (though of course you get more out of it with a mount). Its 3rd and 6th level main abilities are both long rest limited, but quite strategic in how you want to use them so this isn't necessarily a huge problem as they also kind of add onto each other (they both make allies harder to hit, so you can stack them or use the more appropriate one in each case).
Eldritch Knight: Wasn't sure whether to mention this one or not, but I was kind of surprised in both good and bad ways with it. The addition of its spellcasting is great, especially with SCAGtrips earlier on, and also when you can start casting Shadow Blade, but its other features can be a bit "meh". War Magic feels like a long two level wait after you get Extra Attack before you can do cantrip + attack properly (and it doesn't scale with Extra Attack), Eldritch Strike is very situational, Arcane Charge is great and Improved War Magic is okay but very late. Again, the spellcasting is great, so it's a solid sub-class with the right spell choices no matter what, but it feels like a lot of its later features (except maybe Arcane Charge) are things it should get earlier in some form and should scale better.
Gunslinger (Critical Role): This is a bit of a weird mess with the custom firearm rules and features that mostly just counteract them; a Battle Master with DMG Firearms proficiency and the Gunner feat will be more fun for most people. I ended up making my own sub-class to try to keep the ideas that work and make it more unique within the DMG firearms rules instead.
Purple Dragon Knight: I've seen lots of people complain about this sub-class, but I actually kind of like it. Its main features at 3rd, 10th and 15th level all build on Fighter core abilities (Second Wind, Action Surge and Indomitable respectively) to make them even better. The main issue is 7th level where you only get an out of combat bonus, but it's actually not a bad bonus (skill proficiency and expertise in persuasion), but Samurai's Elegant Courtier is arguably better as it's a slightly lesser version that also gives Wisdom save proficiency.
Samurai: This sub-class seems kind of cool, though the three uses per long rest limit on long rest seriously limits it. If it were per short rest it would be so much better (and improve Rapid Strike at the same time) but I'd still prefer to just have a Battle Master with Feinting Attack or Precision Attack personally, as you can always take Skill Expert for more skill proficiencies, and a custom background can get you extra tools if you need them for your theme.
I've played Battle Master and Champion as well; both are solid sub-classes though Champion is a bit boring IMO (it's more fun to have manoeuvres to pick from), but neither was really surprising. I haven't played Arcane Archer and haven't properly played Psi Warrior or Rune Knight in their final forms.
Your gunfighter subclass is so much better than mercer's version! Its a bit complicated but I like that about it....The fact that upgrades have real costs and actual components required makes the class feel more complete. I like how you have Indominable renew a grit point as well...I love when subclass abilities mesh well with existing class features.
I agree about PDK myself....I actually think the subclass isn't terrible. I like it better than Champion and Samurai myself.
Keep in mind. A lot of the Mercer Gunslinger Stuff is really old. It was written when most of those supporting systems didn't even exist. All there really was for him to work with was a previous system in another game they had been playing and a few ragtag optional pieces that are not entirely different from what he made to piece the gunslinger together. It doesn't work now with the additional pieces but it worked well enough when he made it.
I personally wonder how much he would change it up if he made it now... And without Percy to dictate certain kinds of things about the subclass. But I think we could really use an official version of the gunslinger as well. Something that uses the newer supporting details to firearms.
I didn't really mean to pull us a bit off-topic to focus on the Gunslinger; it absolutely suffers from being ported over from Pathfinder, and the features 5e lacks. For example, iirc you had more than one AC value (armour was just one of them) so Gunslingers could bypass armour to be "armour piercing", but D&D 5e doesn't really have that as a concept as all defence is equal now for simplicity, it's one of the things I didn't like about the switch to 5e as I never found multiple defence values a problem personally.
What I really should have added is that why it surprised me is really that after seeing it played on Critical Role it seemed awesome and a lot of fun to play, but when I actually tried it I found it clunky and annoying, as it didn't mesh well with fighter (all of the Exandrian weapons have reload, so you can't even Action Surge properly until you have a Pepperbox), the progression is weird and so-on. If I'd studied it more up front I might not have not been so surprised, but I was pretty new to 5e myself at the time so I didn't fully appreciate what the issues would be. Definitely not trying to be overly harsh on it; it's a product of being ported from one system to another so that the Critical Role group could keep playing on the newer system.
As for an official Gunslinger I do wonder if we'll get one; we have the Gunner feat now, and putting that on a Battle Master gives you a solid gunslinger complete with "trick shots", meanwhile Artificers can make solid gunslingers with a bit of magic right out of the box if your DM allows it, so it's debatable whether we even really need one anymore. I did my sub-class because I liked some of the extra flavour that the Gunslinger does have on things like quick draw, and I like that's a bit of a mix between Battle Master and Champion with a little Rogue-like flavouring.
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I didn't really mean to pull us a bit off-topic to focus on the Gunslinger; it absolutely suffers from being ported over from Pathfinder, and the features 5e lacks. For example, iirc you had more than one AC value (armour was just one of them) so Gunslingers could bypass armour to be "armour piercing", but D&D 5e doesn't really have that as a concept as all defence is equal now for simplicity, it's one of the things I didn't like about the switch to 5e as I never found multiple defence values a problem personally.
What I really should have added is that why it surprised me is really that after seeing it played on Critical Role it seemed awesome and a lot of fun to play, but when I actually tried it I found it clunky and annoying, as it didn't mesh well with fighter (all of the Exandrian weapons have reload, so you can't even Action Surge properly until you have a Pepperbox), the progression is weird and so-on. If I'd studied it more up front I might not have not been so surprised, but I was pretty new to 5e myself at the time so I didn't fully appreciate what the issues would be. Definitely not trying to be overly harsh on it; it's a product of being ported from one system to another so that the Critical Role group could keep playing on the newer system.
As for an official Gunslinger I do wonder if we'll get one; we have the Gunner feat now, and putting that on a Battle Master gives you a solid gunslinger complete with "trick shots", meanwhile Artificers can make solid gunslingers with a bit of magic right out of the box if your DM allows it, so it's debatable whether we even really need one anymore. I did my sub-class because I liked some of the extra flavour that the Gunslinger does have on things like quick draw, and I like that's a bit of a mix between Battle Master and Champion with a little Rogue-like flavouring.
Matt Mercer's Gunslinger is an example of something not quite playing like it seems. And what you get from it is a bit different from what you expect in some regards. I could see it appearing on this list easily for plenty of people. I'm just not sure enough people played it.
It does Work with Fighter. The Issue with it is that it doesn't work in quite the same intuitive simple way of most of the rest of the Fighter Subclasses. Then you combine that with the fact that It's got a lot of little problems that if your somebody like Tallesin with his luck you don't really see them and it can seem almost broken. But for those of us that are more average or poor luck. Those little things can add up into a big cluster of problems always getting in our way.
From the general issue of fewer but somewhat bigger hits than a fighter regularly does, to Luck issues that aren't alleviated to high level, And in that Vein things like lightning Reload and Vicious Intent are just too high level for most of us because it comes way too late.
Trick Shots are it's bread and butter. But how useful they are going to be to each individual depends on which ones they pick, what level they are, the situations they find themselves in, and how well they are either getting the killing blows or Rolling Crits. So your either getting a lot out of these bread and butter abilities or your not getting any at all even with Grit in your pool. Some of them are really powerful if they can be used a lot. I'm not going to deny that. But for us regular people they could do with either doing a bit more for the cost, whether it's a bit of damage, more than one effect or whatever. But most of what they do on their own... You kind of either need to be able to do a little bit more (despite Grit coming back on short rest), or have them more varied for most of us to really get the full value out of them for what we have.
it's Different and I applaud the differences that he put into it and tries to bring to all of his subclasses. But it definitely shows it's age and the fact that it's basically one of if not the first subclass that he made. Other of his subclasses have Quirks but they generally flow together better. Even when trying new things. I know he's refined it a bit but last I checked the differences weren't that big. Though he may have released something more recently that I'm just not remembering or that I don't know about that. I admit that.
When you Combine that all together you kind of get the Very Spirit of this Thread. Either something that plays a lot better than somebody expects because their luck, and choices, and the game play all click together. Or All of the ways they might not click together for people and becomes really disappointing.
As for an Official Version. I'd really just like to see an official fighter subclass that is primarily ranged. Something quirky like the guns seems like a good fit so it doesn't step on too many toes. It doesn't need magic. So it won't step on the toes of the Artificer, Doesn't need to be skill heavy or have mobility features so it doesn't step on the toes of something like the Ranger. Will never be quite as weapon adaptable to step on Kensei. So it just feels like a good Niche but it's only ever been unofficially filled.
most Everything else for Fighters. Yes they can be used ranged to lesser or greater extent. But that's really just those subclasses using Ranged. it's not really a ranged subclass. And many of those Subclasses just fit the mental images of most players better by being Melee.
I didn't really mean to pull us a bit off-topic to focus on the Gunslinger; it absolutely suffers from being ported over from Pathfinder, and the features 5e lacks. For example, iirc you had more than one AC value (armour was just one of them) so Gunslingers could bypass armour to be "armour piercing", but D&D 5e doesn't really have that as a concept as all defence is equal now for simplicity, it's one of the things I didn't like about the switch to 5e as I never found multiple defence values a problem personally.
What I really should have added is that why it surprised me is really that after seeing it played on Critical Role it seemed awesome and a lot of fun to play, but when I actually tried it I found it clunky and annoying, as it didn't mesh well with fighter (all of the Exandrian weapons have reload, so you can't even Action Surge properly until you have a Pepperbox), the progression is weird and so-on. If I'd studied it more up front I might not have not been so surprised, but I was pretty new to 5e myself at the time so I didn't fully appreciate what the issues would be. Definitely not trying to be overly harsh on it; it's a product of being ported from one system to another so that the Critical Role group could keep playing on the newer system.
As for an official Gunslinger I do wonder if we'll get one; we have the Gunner feat now, and putting that on a Battle Master gives you a solid gunslinger complete with "trick shots", meanwhile Artificers can make solid gunslingers with a bit of magic right out of the box if your DM allows it, so it's debatable whether we even really need one anymore. I did my sub-class because I liked some of the extra flavour that the Gunslinger does have on things like quick draw, and I like that's a bit of a mix between Battle Master and Champion with a little Rogue-like flavouring.
Matt Mercer's Gunslinger is an example of something not quite playing like it seems. And what you get from it is a bit different from what you expect in some regards. I could see it appearing on this list easily for plenty of people. I'm just not sure enough people played it.
It does Work with Fighter. The Issue with it is that it doesn't work in quite the same intuitive simple way of most of the rest of the Fighter Subclasses. Then you combine that with the fact that It's got a lot of little problems that if your somebody like Tallesin with his luck you don't really see them and it can seem almost broken. But for those of us that are more average or poor luck. Those little things can add up into a big cluster of problems always getting in our way.
From the general issue of fewer but somewhat bigger hits than a fighter regularly does, to Luck issues that aren't alleviated to high level, And in that Vein things like lightning Reload and Vicious Intent are just too high level for most of us because it comes way too late.
Trick Shots are it's bread and butter. But how useful they are going to be to each individual depends on which ones they pick, what level they are, the situations they find themselves in, and how well they are either getting the killing blows or Rolling Crits. So your either getting a lot out of these bread and butter abilities or your not getting any at all even with Grit in your pool. Some of them are really powerful if they can be used a lot. I'm not going to deny that. But for us regular people they could do with either doing a bit more for the cost, whether it's a bit of damage, more than one effect or whatever. But most of what they do on their own... You kind of either need to be able to do a little bit more (despite Grit coming back on short rest), or have them more varied for most of us to really get the full value out of them for what we have.
it's Different and I applaud the differences that he put into it and tries to bring to all of his subclasses. But it definitely shows it's age and the fact that it's basically one of if not the first subclass that he made. Other of his subclasses have Quirks but they generally flow together better. Even when trying new things. I know he's refined it a bit but last I checked the differences weren't that big. Though he may have released something more recently that I'm just not remembering or that I don't know about that. I admit that.
When you Combine that all together you kind of get the Very Spirit of this Thread. Either something that plays a lot better than somebody expects because their luck, and choices, and the game play all click together. Or All of the ways they might not click together for people and becomes really disappointing.
As for an Official Version. I'd really just like to see an official fighter subclass that is primarily ranged. Something quirky like the guns seems like a good fit so it doesn't step on too many toes. It doesn't need magic. So it won't step on the toes of the Artificer, Doesn't need to be skill heavy or have mobility features so it doesn't step on the toes of something like the Ranger. Will never be quite as weapon adaptable to step on Kensei. So it just feels like a good Niche but it's only ever been unofficially filled.
most Everything else for Fighters. Yes they can be used ranged to lesser or greater extent. But that's really just those subclasses using Ranged. it's not really a ranged subclass. And many of those Subclasses just fit the mental images of most players better by being Melee.
We do have arcane archer. I wouldn't mind seeing others though.
Currently I am playing a Leonin Echo Knight. Now I find the way you can use this specific sub class is awesome. I have only reached level 8 (as of my last session) but have already needed to work with my DM on flanking rules and flavor texted a lot of combat and roleplay scenarios around the abilities. I have kept the Dex high on my fighter and given him a shield, Which gave him an AC of 19. I have explored a few other fighters and find that this is the one I am able to be most creative with. I also put my expertise into acrobatics just for the fun of using the acrobatics in a flanking maneuver.
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EK for me is odd....its a fighter subclass that focuses on magic but the type of magic you can pick is evocation and abjuration. The combination of the type of spells available to you at 1st and 2nd spell level for evocation and the fact your INT is likely lower than a wizard your spells lack punch and you are generally better off just attacking twice anyway.
So then the "best' use of your spells is generally abjuration (Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, etc..) and with that it makes it kind of an odd defensive based subclass.
If I wanted to play that I would likely just go with paladin as they play that role a lot better and have nova damage output that far outpaces EK.
With EK, even if you have high int you're also just not going to have high level spells. You won't be able to up cast the damage spells you do get much and won't get access to things like fireball until level 13.
Illusion and enchantment I think make sense for arcane trickster, but I agree evocation is a little odd for EK. On the one hand I get that EK and arcane trickster are 'third casters' getting their magic from as subclass, but the school limitations always felt a little unnecessary to me. Not getting second level spells until level 7 and third level spells until level 13 honestly felt like enough of a limitation in and of itself. Would their heavily slowed spell progression compared to full or even half casters really be overpowered without the school limitations on most of their leveled spells?
They do both have means of giving enemies disadvantage on a saving throw of their spells, which can help some with the int issue if you don't invest into it, but depending on the spell and the enemy that can be tricky even with disadvantage if your modifier isn't great.
When it comes to mixing martial and magical prowess I think I prefer the bladesinger, hexblade and/or pact of the blade, or paladin etc over EK. Or, specifically with archery, arcane archer which does the magic side in a unique way instead of handing you low level wizard spells.
Yeah thats why my main fix for both classes is you get to pick the spell schools you are locked into or just dont have the limitation.
That doesn't actually fix the class at all. It's core issues with not blending in spell casting all that well is still going to get into the EK's way. Just like it does with the AT (and yes it does get in the AT's way). And the Evocation School is not a big problem on the EK. A lot of spells that people would pick for such a character are already either Evocation or Abjuration to begin with. And they can get a few spells that are outside of that. It may only be 4 or 5 spells but they are there. many of the Spells that people tout around for Martial Builds with Spell Caster Increases are either Evocation or Abjuration. There are a couple exceptions but those two schools hold the majority of them.
The only reason I can seem to find why people like to Claim that Evocation and Abjuration doesn't work (despite being the attack and defense schools of magic), Seems to be they think of things like fireball. Decide it's lackluster at the level you get it at so EK must not really work because of that. When that isn't the EK's core problem.
The EK and the AT have the same problem. You have to stop being one class to be the other. They don't really blend so The combination is always going to get into your way. The AT's seem like they aren't so bad because most people think of something like Illusion in a more non-combat sense and the base rogue in a combat sense, despite that not being all they are. But they still get in the way. And AT's magic has an actually higher bar to overcome to actually be truely useful unless the DM is always goign to handwave it away as successful. Concentration is often an issue with AT's spells. Many Spells for both Schools actually have Save DC's (or an equivalent) unless your only interested in casting maybe half a dozen low level spells for the entirety of your career. utility spells like Detect Magic, comprehend languages, and Identify aren't any easier to come by for the AT than they are for the EK, and are arguably more needed by the AT. The Only thing that the AT has that the EK doesn't have, is having more of the types of spells that people like to try and cheese to do way more than they actually do and see if the DM will let them get away with it.
That's part of what ultimately got me to redo my archer character from arcane trickster to arcane archer. (It would have been a bit better if she were a melee focused rogue, since booming blade could add a bit of magic to her melee attacks, but I didn't quite like how the magic side of things and the rogue/archer side of things felt like two useful but entirely separate skillsets that didn't work together at all. Out of combat they played well together, having the ability to say cast invisibility or disguise self when doing roguey stuff, but in combat I didn't like the divide.
Though there was some good stuff, mage hand legeredemain for example? Fits in great with rogue. Spell ambush? Works great with bonus action hide, but a lot of it did still end up feeling separate.
If you could actually use spells that help your martial abilities it would definitely fix it.
The problem being relying on spells that are 99% damage and rely on your spellcasting ability mod (Evocation) it's not great...
Misty step, shadow blade, blink, fly, haste, invisibility.... These are all super excellent for the fighter but they can't pick them unless it's a "special" level which is dumb
on the topic of spell selection and EK, I do feel like fey touched almost feels mandatory. Your spell and slot selection is so limited, so fey touched actually helps a ton in that regard by giving you what is essentially two whole extra spell slots to 1st and 2nd level. Your spell from fey touched can be a big deal too, like hex/hunter's mark, bless, or whatever. Those spells don't even require your spellcasting modifier to be effective.
This is especially more evident when you do finally access 2nd lvl spells, as it almost feels like misty step is a "must-have," so this actually opens up the options to spells like blur, spider climb, invisibility, magic weapon (for low magic campaigns where magic items are rare). None of those options rely on your INT. Even at this level within the school of abjuration/evocation, you can take spells like darkness for situations when an enemy spellcaster is giving a lot of trouble and you need to block their line of sight, or warding wind. Again, effective, practical choices that don't rely on your INT.
You can have an effective suite of spells that do not rely on your INT! A good deal are just buffs that enhance your martial prowess. Though, more than that, they provide a way to exponentially increase your utility as a party member; that's far more you can say for any other fighter.
I've played a whole bunch of the different Fighter sub-classes, so I'll try and mention them as briefly as I can:
I've played Battle Master and Champion as well; both are solid sub-classes though Champion is a bit boring IMO (it's more fun to have manoeuvres to pick from), so neither was really surprising. I haven't played Arcane Archer and haven't properly played Psi Warrior or Rune Knight in their final forms.
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Your gunfighter subclass is so much better than mercer's version! Its a bit complicated but I like that about it....The fact that upgrades have real costs and actual components required makes the class feel more complete. I like how you have Indominable renew a grit point as well...I love when subclass abilities mesh well with existing class features.
I agree about PDK myself....I actually think the subclass isn't terrible. I like it better than Champion and Samurai myself.
Keep in mind. A lot of the Mercer Gunslinger Stuff is really old. It was written when most of those supporting systems didn't even exist. All there really was for him to work with was a previous system in another game they had been playing and a few ragtag optional pieces that are not entirely different from what he made to piece the gunslinger together. It doesn't work now with the additional pieces but it worked well enough when he made it.
I personally wonder how much he would change it up if he made it now... And without Percy to dictate certain kinds of things about the subclass. But I think we could really use an official version of the gunslinger as well. Something that uses the newer supporting details to firearms.
I didn't really mean to pull us a bit off-topic to focus on the Gunslinger; it absolutely suffers from being ported over from Pathfinder, and the features 5e lacks. For example, iirc you had more than one AC value (armour was just one of them) so Gunslingers could bypass armour to be "armour piercing", but D&D 5e doesn't really have that as a concept as all defence is equal now for simplicity, it's one of the things I didn't like about the switch to 5e as I never found multiple defence values a problem personally.
What I really should have added is that why it surprised me is really that after seeing it played on Critical Role it seemed awesome and a lot of fun to play, but when I actually tried it I found it clunky and annoying, as it didn't mesh well with fighter (all of the Exandrian weapons have reload, so you can't even Action Surge properly until you have a Pepperbox), the progression is weird and so-on. If I'd studied it more up front I might not have not been so surprised, but I was pretty new to 5e myself at the time so I didn't fully appreciate what the issues would be. Definitely not trying to be overly harsh on it; it's a product of being ported from one system to another so that the Critical Role group could keep playing on the newer system.
As for an official Gunslinger I do wonder if we'll get one; we have the Gunner feat now, and putting that on a Battle Master gives you a solid gunslinger complete with "trick shots", meanwhile Artificers can make solid gunslingers with a bit of magic right out of the box if your DM allows it, so it's debatable whether we even really need one anymore. I did my sub-class because I liked some of the extra flavour that the Gunslinger does have on things like quick draw, and I like that's a bit of a mix between Battle Master and Champion with a little Rogue-like flavouring.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Matt Mercer's Gunslinger is an example of something not quite playing like it seems. And what you get from it is a bit different from what you expect in some regards. I could see it appearing on this list easily for plenty of people. I'm just not sure enough people played it.
It does Work with Fighter. The Issue with it is that it doesn't work in quite the same intuitive simple way of most of the rest of the Fighter Subclasses. Then you combine that with the fact that It's got a lot of little problems that if your somebody like Tallesin with his luck you don't really see them and it can seem almost broken. But for those of us that are more average or poor luck. Those little things can add up into a big cluster of problems always getting in our way.
From the general issue of fewer but somewhat bigger hits than a fighter regularly does, to Luck issues that aren't alleviated to high level, And in that Vein things like lightning Reload and Vicious Intent are just too high level for most of us because it comes way too late.
Trick Shots are it's bread and butter. But how useful they are going to be to each individual depends on which ones they pick, what level they are, the situations they find themselves in, and how well they are either getting the killing blows or Rolling Crits. So your either getting a lot out of these bread and butter abilities or your not getting any at all even with Grit in your pool. Some of them are really powerful if they can be used a lot. I'm not going to deny that. But for us regular people they could do with either doing a bit more for the cost, whether it's a bit of damage, more than one effect or whatever. But most of what they do on their own... You kind of either need to be able to do a little bit more (despite Grit coming back on short rest), or have them more varied for most of us to really get the full value out of them for what we have.
it's Different and I applaud the differences that he put into it and tries to bring to all of his subclasses. But it definitely shows it's age and the fact that it's basically one of if not the first subclass that he made. Other of his subclasses have Quirks but they generally flow together better. Even when trying new things. I know he's refined it a bit but last I checked the differences weren't that big. Though he may have released something more recently that I'm just not remembering or that I don't know about that. I admit that.
When you Combine that all together you kind of get the Very Spirit of this Thread. Either something that plays a lot better than somebody expects because their luck, and choices, and the game play all click together. Or All of the ways they might not click together for people and becomes really disappointing.
As for an Official Version. I'd really just like to see an official fighter subclass that is primarily ranged. Something quirky like the guns seems like a good fit so it doesn't step on too many toes. It doesn't need magic. So it won't step on the toes of the Artificer, Doesn't need to be skill heavy or have mobility features so it doesn't step on the toes of something like the Ranger. Will never be quite as weapon adaptable to step on Kensei. So it just feels like a good Niche but it's only ever been unofficially filled.
most Everything else for Fighters. Yes they can be used ranged to lesser or greater extent. But that's really just those subclasses using Ranged. it's not really a ranged subclass. And many of those Subclasses just fit the mental images of most players better by being Melee.
We do have arcane archer. I wouldn't mind seeing others though.
Currently I am playing a Leonin Echo Knight. Now I find the way you can use this specific sub class is awesome. I have only reached level 8 (as of my last session) but have already needed to work with my DM on flanking rules and flavor texted a lot of combat and roleplay scenarios around the abilities. I have kept the Dex high on my fighter and given him a shield, Which gave him an AC of 19. I have explored a few other fighters and find that this is the one I am able to be most creative with. I also put my expertise into acrobatics just for the fun of using the acrobatics in a flanking maneuver.