For clarity, I do not think the subclass is bad. But it seems to be almost universally accepted as amazing. I just don't see it. I'll explain why, and I'm open to changing my mind.
The longest part of the discussion will be the runes, so I'll get Giant's Might out of the way. You become larger, gain advantage on strength checks and strength saves (which are relatively rare). This is good for shield master or a grapple/shove build, but I consider that to be niche. Next, you add 1d6 damage once per turn, an average of 3.5. I'll take the extra damage but it doesn't knock my socks off.
Next the runes.
Until level 7, all the rune passive abilities are advantage on skill checks that a fighter normally doesn't involve him/her self in - that rely on ability scores not normally very high on a fighter. One way to look at it, you essentially offset low scores on some skills with advantage - so - you gain some extra skills. That's cool, especially for a Fighter, who is not normally known for being a skill monkey. Exception: Stone Rune: You get darkvision to 120 feet. If you're a human or another race without it, this is great.
Now we can talk about the activated abilities. The first problem is (until level 7) you only get 2 uses per short rest. At level 7 it goes up to 3.
Cloud Rune: IMO this is the best among them, because there's no save. If something does a lot of a damage with a single attack roll, you can gift that damage to someone on the other side. Lovely! But only once per short rest. Maybe you can give yourself 2 Cloud Runes (I'm not sure about the rules). But then you're only getting the passive benefits from one rune.
Fire Rune: 2d6 fire damage + (save or suck) after effects. Once per short rest you can do 7 average extra damage automatic. Now a strength save, and if they make it that's all that happens. If not they're restrained, which is great, but they get a save every turn. This is potentially to great effect, *if* they fail multiple saves. But you can only do this once per short rest, and if they save right away, you're left disappointed. Watch out for fire resistance and immunity.
Frost Rune: +2 to some strength and constitution ability checks (what's a constitution ability check?), and +2 to strength and con saves. Con saves are common and often important, and this lasts 10 minutes. This is well worth it if you know you are going to need it for the fight ahead.
Stone Rune: Save or Suck, and a save on every turn. Enemy is charmed and incapacitated.
In summary, some of these options *can* be pulled off to great effect. The problem I have is you combine the "save or suck" dynamic to most of them with very limited use. The DC for the saves isn't terribly difficult. It starts out at DC 13 if you have a 16 Constitution. I'm not at all grading the Rune Knight an F, but I just don't see the super A++ that many people are giving it.
So, my theory as to why it's getting near universal acclaim has to do with the simplicity of it. Right out the box, once per turn you do 1d6 extra damage. Now, you and I might look at this and think "pfft, big deal." but the thing is you just get it without any hassle or thought. A battlemaster has to think about what maneuvers to pick, and when to use them, for example. This may seem silly to you, but the fact that you just get 1d6 on your attack is an upfront boost to your DPR compared to other fighters. In tier 1, the rune knight is effectively the strongest fighter by far in terms of DPR.
And then there's the size. Being bigger, you naturally cover more ground and it's a tactical advantage. Sure, it's hard to quantify in numbers how this translates in practice, but it's still a neat advantage nonetheless. Slap on a halberd/glaive, and you see your area of threat increase to a considerable portion of any given map. Then there's the whole given fact that as a large creature, you have the given option to grapple a huge sized creature. Barring external assistance that may be party-comp-dependent, no other barbarian, fighter, nor glory paladin can pull off such a feat-- but you can.
Let's say a hard hitting monster manages to land a crit on a squishy party member. In this instance, most other fighters would start readying funeral arrangements. You, on the other hand, can make a difference. Cloud rune, bam, saved. This is a big deal! Now, here's the bigger picture: because of it's incredible, amazing defensive power, your team mates are going to want to have it as much as possible. In turn, the probability of a short rest occurring is greater because it's no longer about making sure the fighter's got their offensive power, but now because it's their ability to keep the party save as much as possible.
Fire rune, well, based on my experience playing a paladin, I don't see it as just 2d6. It's 4d6 on a crit! When that happens, who cares if the enemy makes their save? In the mean time, I just unloaded some sweet damage. If the creature fails their save, that's just icing on the cake.
Come level 7, you'd be a fool to take anything other than hill rune. Now you have the barbarian's resistances. Now, for most incoming damage, your HP pool is effectively doubled. Again, no other fighter gets that benefit. Come level 7, and you get some portions of the Lucky feat for free. You support your party by negating crits! DM rolled a nat20? No they didn't, cause Runic Shield.
Being a class that uses their bonus action fairly frequently, this frees up this particular fighter from needing to take PAM to optimize damage. This frees up the possiblity to grab res: whatever, increase CON for better DCs, or just cap out on STR with GWM. If I were building this character, I'd start with a 17 in STR, pick up skill expert for +1 STR, and play around with the skills needed to lean further into the rune knight's skillmonkey-ish capabilities.
it's also a more skills-based fighter, so whereas other fighters are twiddling their thumbs unable to contribute much in social or exploration, the rune knight can possibly do so, or at least help group checks by not sucking as much. Now, you mention a fighter may not have as high stats in certain areas related to the skills, but why not? I'd argue you just need high CON & STR. With point buy, you could build a third stat as you please. You could be charismatic or wise. You could be dexterous and good with tools (which fire rune improves with expertise basically).
In short, we've got a fighter who at the start is already offensively stronger, has significant party support, and a neat DPR spike with a fire-smite, and out-of-combat capabilties. Later on, they become the tankiest single-class fighter. The party with the rune knight can be ensured their squishy party members will never know the cold embrace of a crit thanks to cloud and runic shield.
@cgarcio covered a lot of it, but I just want to add a bit to what they said. You're both completely correct that the official version doesn't live up to the "OMG this is the best freaking Fighter subclass in the game!" reputation that likely was spawned by the Unearthed Arcana version, but it's still really, really good, especially when compared to most of the other Fighter subclasses (Purple Dragon Knights hide in shame when they read the mechanics of the Rune Knight, Champions sit crying in a corner at them being both mechanically effective and simple to understand, Arcane Archers complain about it being unfair that they get to be both cool and mechanically effective). Sure, there are some Fighter subclasses that can be just as (if not more) mechanically effective (like Battlemasters and Echo Knights), but Rune Knights are just cooler than Battlemasters and more widely-thematic than Echo Knights.
Besides comparing them to other subclasses, their abilities are actually quite good. They get a lot at level 3; Smith's Tools and Giant Language proficiency, permanent advantage on 3-4 skills (possibly replacing one of the skills with 120 feet of darkvision), two abilities with a variety of combat usages that refresh on a short rest (which you should be able to take after most combat encounters), and an ability to become Large 2 times a day for one minute, not even taking concentration and capable of being stacked with an ally casting Enlarge on you. Being Large grants you advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws (just adding to the 3-4 skills that you already have permanent advantage on), lets you reach farther than you could previously (not by increasing your reach, but making you cover more squares and thus have a larger perimeter of squares that are within 5 feet of you), and lets you deal an extra 1d6 damage each round. On their own, none of these abilities make me think "Wow! That's a super awesome and amazingly powerful ability!", but all put together, the subclass starts off really impressively. And, you get access to even more impressive features as you level up (Hill Rune, Runic Shield, Master of Runes, increased Giant's Might damage die, becoming huge when you use Giant's Might, etc).
It's just a lot of really good and useful features. None of them are "oh, that's absolutely never going to be useful", and even the ones that are more situational will be very useful in the situations that they do come up in.
Furthermore, in a way, they're kind of a mixture of how Rangers and Paladins are balanced, but they get both of the benefits. Giant's Might damage is comparable to a non-concentration version of Favored Foe, and the Fire Rune's damaging feature is comparable to Divine Smite with an additional restraining effect. Paladins are nova, rangers deal consistent damage, and you can do a bit of both, as well as having abilities to debuff enemies, mitigate damage to your allies, contribute in social interaction and exploration, use your Large/Huge size in creative and interesting ways, be useful in downtime (due to Smiths' tools), possibly be better with interacting with giants (through being capable of growing and being able to speak Giant).
They're not objectively, completely better than every other Fighter subclass in the game, but they're pretty good at everything they do, and they do a lot.
IMO, that's why they're now getting all the praise that they're getting. They're just plain good. No one's going to complain about having another good, cool, interesting Fighter subclass, especially after years of just tons of Battlemaster fighters.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The runes are only part of the equation. There is also the Giants Might, which gives damage bonuses every round, and lets the fighter shove prone creatures far larger than usual, generating a source of advantage that wouldn't normally be available for some opponents, and doing so easily with advantage against larger or smaller opponents.
Then at level 7 you get Runic Shield, which is pretty strong.
So yes, if all the Rune Knight got from levels 3-6 were the 2 runes that could be used twice per short rest, the subclass would hang out with the Champion and purple dragon knight as underwhelming. But you get another strong 3rd level ability, and have more runes and another strong ability waiting at 7th level.
Arguably, the Rune Knight gets more spell like effects of stronger value available to it than the Eldritch Knight. Just imagine it this way: a subclass that can cast a better, concentration free version of enlarge on itself a number of times per day equal to its proficiency modifier. And it gets other bonuses. That is pretty huge.
You become larger, gain advantage on strength checks and strength saves (which are relatively rare).
Literally am playing a rune knight right now in Curse of Strahd, and that STR save advantage has been huge (pun intended) against all the damn wolves trying to knock me prone.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You become larger, gain advantage on strength checks and strength saves (which are relatively rare).
Literally am playing a rune knight right now in Curse of Strahd, and that STR save advantage has been huge (pun intended) against all the damn wolves trying to knock me prone.
Nice. I'm considering playing a Halfling Rune Knight at some point. Just for the laughs or a large-sized Halfling :)
You become larger, gain advantage on strength checks and strength saves (which are relatively rare).
Literally am playing a rune knight right now in Curse of Strahd, and that STR save advantage has been huge (pun intended) against all the damn wolves trying to knock me prone.
Nice. I'm considering playing a Halfling Rune Knight at some point. Just for the laughs or a large-sized Halfling :)
Yeah dude! That's a character I've got, sorta. Except it's a gnome.
But when he goes big, he doesn't just look like an expanded gnome. It's like the dynamic between Billy Batson and Captain Marvel, or Yugi Mutou and The Pharaoh, or He-man. I've flavored it as him channeling the magic runes on his greatsword, and he goes from a soft, baby-faced gnome to a towering ripped Adonis of a specimen. Then he's able to use the greatsword as a large-sized creature!
You become larger, gain advantage on strength checks and strength saves (which are relatively rare).
Literally am playing a rune knight right now in Curse of Strahd, and that STR save advantage has been huge (pun intended) against all the damn wolves trying to knock me prone.
Nice. I'm considering playing a Halfling Rune Knight at some point. Just for the laughs or a large-sized Halfling :)
Yeah dude! That's a character I've got, sorta. Except it's a gnome.
But when he goes big, he doesn't just look like an expanded gnome. It's like the dynamic between Billy Batson and Captain Marvel, or Yugi Mutou and The Pharaoh, or He-man. I've flavored it as him channeling the magic runes on his greatsword, and he goes from a soft, baby-faced gnome to a towering ripped Adonis of a specimen. Then he's able to use the greatsword as a large-sized creature!
This is really what drew me to the class -- not the features, but the possibilities when it comes to playing with the flavor of it. I'm doing a whole body horror thing with mine, and as he increases in level (and eventually MCs into Aberrant Mind sorcerer too) those Giant's Might transformations are going to get a lot weirder than just 'he big boi now'.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah then level 7 comes and you get to impose DIS on a Saving Throw as a reaction for a full minute or potentially 10 saves.....dear lord how good that is....and 60ft radius holy shit.
By comparison the Sorcerer would only get to impose DIS on a saving throw for one of their spells TWICE PER DAY at this same point.
Having this fighter with a caster group would be straight up ridiculous as a Hold Person or Hold Monster spell would be extremely hard to beat with DIS on a lot of creatures.
Not to mention if other save modifiers come into play....like if the Warlock uses Mind Sliver or if you have an eloquence bard.
The synergy is what makes it so crazy for me....
Also you can just get one of the best benefits of Rage with the Hill Giant rune.
Overall 7+ is where the subclass gets straight crazy to me.
Yeah then level 7 comes and you get to impose DIS on a Saving Throw as a reaction for a full minute or potentially 10 saves.....dear lord how good that is....and 60ft radius holy shit.
By comparison the Sorcerer would only get to impose DIS on a saving throw for one of their spells TWICE PER DAY at this same point.
Having this fighter with a caster group would be straight up ridiculous as a Hold Person or Hold Monster spell would be extremely hard to beat with DIS on a lot of creatures.
Not to mention if other save modifiers come into play....like if the Warlock uses Mind Sliver or if you have an eloquence bard.
The synergy is what makes it so crazy for me....
Also you can just get one of the best benefits of Rage with the Hill Giant rune.
Overall 7+ is where the subclass gets straight crazy to me.
Yeah, that save debuf is what draws me to the Eloquence Bard (and I've played one). My "to do" list is a Fighter with two levels of Barbarian. Adding reckless attack and two rages in the mix with Giant's Might and the runes... now I'll feel like I can use abilities liberally.
A pet peeve of mine is only having very limited use abilities.
Now Rune Knight is by far my favourite Fighter subclass (in reality the only one I actually feel any kind of attraction to), so I can't really add to the conversation in terms of is it overrated or not. I really like the runes giving you advantage on skill checks and tbh the fire rune giving expertise in tools just makes me incredibly happy, the combat stuff is neat too, but I just love how much extra it brings to a Fighter, that utility outside of combat.
Obviously at level 7 the Storm Rune is a wonderful addition, but I want to know, for anyone who has hit level 15 in Rune Knight, what did it feel like going from 4 spell-like abilities per short rest to 10 spell-like abilities per short rest? It just seems an incredible jump in resources available.
Now Rune Knight is by far my favourite Fighter subclass (in reality the only one I actually feel any kind of attraction to), so I can't really add to the conversation in terms of is it overrated or not. I really like the runes giving you advantage on skill checks and tbh the fire rune giving expertise in tools just makes me incredibly happy, the combat stuff is neat too, but I just love how much extra it brings to a Fighter, that utility outside of combat.
Obviously at level 7 the Storm Rune is a wonderful addition, but I want to know, for anyone who has hit level 15 in Rune Knight, what did it feel like going from 4 spell-like abilities per short rest to 10 spell-like abilities per short rest? It just seems an incredible jump in resources available.
For me the skills are just odd ball, especially for a fighter. Like slight or hand? I wish they did just a little bit better on those passive abilities.
Advantage on tools is cool if you use them, and honestly I probably should be cognitive about finding ways to use them more.
Now Rune Knight is by far my favourite Fighter subclass (in reality the only one I actually feel any kind of attraction to), so I can't really add to the conversation in terms of is it overrated or not. I really like the runes giving you advantage on skill checks and tbh the fire rune giving expertise in tools just makes me incredibly happy, the combat stuff is neat too, but I just love how much extra it brings to a Fighter, that utility outside of combat.
Obviously at level 7 the Storm Rune is a wonderful addition, but I want to know, for anyone who has hit level 15 in Rune Knight, what did it feel like going from 4 spell-like abilities per short rest to 10 spell-like abilities per short rest? It just seems an incredible jump in resources available.
For me the skills are just odd ball, especially for a fighter. Like slight or hand? I wish they did just a little bit better on those passive abilities.
Advantage on tools is cool if you use them, and honestly I probably should be cognitive about finding ways to use them more.
Yeah, I think you really have to lean into the skills if you want to get the best out of them, you're not playing a fighter, you're playing a runic master who can also fight. I like that they force you to consider the fighter as something else. I think I'm relatively lucky with my build here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Dravaal28/characters/41000894 that the campaign I'm in is less combat focused so I could build sub optimally for combat, plus I took that first level in rogue to really get the most out of my skills. Sure I'm one level behind on extra attack but tbh the flavour of the character really is what makes me want to play him.
The tool use is really potent IF your campaign uses tools/downtime a lot, but falls off a cliff if it doesn't. Coupled with my deception, sleight of hand and proficiency in the Dragonchess tool, I can really play into that strength and be a dragonchess shark in downtime, or I can make weapons and armour with my smiths tools, plus having thieves tools is a massive bonus.
I appreciate that not everyone is in the same boat as me, and that's OK.
Out of interest, what subclass do you consider the best for fighter, and why?
Out of interest, what subclass do you consider the best for fighter, and why?
Samurai. A fighter's a fighter, you gotta fight! You gotta be up and at 'em. I think the samurai, mechanically, is what the champion should have been-- a simple and straightforward yet powerful martial.
Why?
Because you get resilient wisdom for free. Because you get advantage whenever you want. Tireless spirit means you'll always have a use of fighting spirit when you need it. I built mine as an elf sharpshooter (original, right?), and by golly is it strong as it gets. This is it, folks, this is peak performance. I dumped STR, pumped up WIS to 16 at the start. I slapped on a storm belt and a black razor, gave it GWM, it now covered all its bases. But wait, SS, EA, DEX, GWM? I still had 3 whole other or ASIs to give it. Do I want more advantage? Mounted combatant with a wondrous figurine of a nightmare. Want more HP? Cap out CON/get tough, or a mix of both. Want more utility? Grab whatever you want, the world is yours because you're pretty strong defensively and offensively. Heck, you're even decent in social situations cause of elegant courtier.
Watch as I unleash superior steel folded over 10,000 times from forgotten realms !japan.
Now Rune Knight is by far my favourite Fighter subclass (in reality the only one I actually feel any kind of attraction to), so I can't really add to the conversation in terms of is it overrated or not. I really like the runes giving you advantage on skill checks and tbh the fire rune giving expertise in tools just makes me incredibly happy, the combat stuff is neat too, but I just love how much extra it brings to a Fighter, that utility outside of combat.
Obviously at level 7 the Storm Rune is a wonderful addition, but I want to know, for anyone who has hit level 15 in Rune Knight, what did it feel like going from 4 spell-like abilities per short rest to 10 spell-like abilities per short rest? It just seems an incredible jump in resources available.
For me the skills are just odd ball, especially for a fighter. Like slight or hand? I wish they did just a little bit better on those passive abilities.
Advantage on tools is cool if you use them, and honestly I probably should be cognitive about finding ways to use them more.
Yeah, I think you really have to lean into the skills if you want to get the best out of them, you're not playing a fighter, you're playing a runic master who can also fight. I like that they force you to consider the fighter as something else. I think I'm relatively lucky with my build here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Dravaal28/characters/41000894 that the campaign I'm in is less combat focused so I could build sub optimally for combat, plus I took that first level in rogue to really get the most out of my skills. Sure I'm one level behind on extra attack but tbh the flavour of the character really is what makes me want to play him.
The tool use is really potent IF your campaign uses tools/downtime a lot, but falls off a cliff if it doesn't. Coupled with my deception, sleight of hand and proficiency in the Dragonchess tool, I can really play into that strength and be a dragonchess shark in downtime, or I can make weapons and armour with my smiths tools, plus having thieves tools is a massive bonus.
I appreciate that not everyone is in the same boat as me, and that's OK.
Out of interest, what subclass do you consider the best for fighter, and why?
For Fighter, honorable mention would be the Eldritch Knight. Being able to add martial enhancing spells like Shield, Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade is huge. On Shield, imagine having 20 AC and then as a reaction bump it to 25 for an entire round. Level 7 you can hit someone with Greenflame Blade and still have your second attack as a bonus action. There's too many good things to list about the Gish-inspired features and things you can do with the spells. It comes on late, but at level 13 you can cast Fireball - Action Surge - then Fireball again (although at that level enemies are stronger).
Only downside is your spell progression is sloooooooowwww.
But the most powerful in my opinion is the Echo knight. Your Echo Avatar is extremely powerful and it's an unlimited resource. There are so many things you can do with it, both in and out of combat. Too many to write up, but Treatmonk has a great YouTube video that covers it. He's pretty sharp and thorough, but I don't agree with him on everything, maybe 90%. He's right on the money with this one.
But the most powerful in my opinion is the Echo knight. Your Echo Avatar is extremely powerful and it's an unlimited resource. There are so many things you can do with it, both in and out of combat.
If my rune knight happens to bite it in this CoS campaign (pun intended), one of my backup character ideas is to come back in with an echo knight -- his little sister, with the echo reskinned as the ghost of her dead twin
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Out of interest, what subclass do you consider the best for fighter, and why?
Samurai. A fighter's a fighter, you gotta fight! You gotta be up and at 'em. I think the samurai, mechanically, is what the champion should have been-- a simple and straightforward yet powerful martial.
Why?
Because you get resilient wisdom for free. Because you get advantage whenever you want. Tireless spirit means you'll always have a use of fighting spirit when you need it. I built mine as an elf sharpshooter (original, right?), and by golly is it strong as it gets. This is it, folks, this is peak performance. I dumped STR, pumped up WIS to 16 at the start. I slapped on a storm belt and a black razor, gave it GWM, it now covered all its bases. But wait, SS, EA, DEX, GWM? I still had 3 whole other or ASIs to give it. Do I want more advantage? Mounted combatant with a wondrous figurine of a nightmare. Want more HP? Cap out CON/get tough, or a mix of both. Want more utility? Grab whatever you want, the world is yours because you're pretty strong defensively and offensively. Heck, you're even decent in social situations cause of elegant courtier.
Watch as I unleash superior steel folded over 10,000 times from forgotten realms !japan.
Not seeing this one.
You get advantage whenever you want it...as long as you only want it three times a day. You have to get to 10th level to get it once more, every time you roll initiative. So you will have it once per fight, at minimum. That part is ok, but certainly not spectacular. Advantage for one turn isn't really all that much imo.
Proficiency in Wisdom saves is nice and situationally useful. It does give you a free Res (Wis) feat, essentially. But probably not crucial at level 7, better if your game goes into the teens. I only have a +1 to Wis on my fighter/barbarian in an Icewind Dale campaign and the other fighter is -1 Wis. We have only had to make a few Wis saves, so far. So it really hasn't been an issue in Icewind Dale.
Rapid Strike is nice and a good trade off. An extra attack is easily more valuable than making an attack with advantage. This is the strongest ability I have seen from Samurai. At 15th level, you would have 3 attacks already and can make a 4th with this ability. Throw in duel wield or polearm master and you get 5 attacks! Pretty strong.
Strength before Death is basically just spitting in their eye on your way out! ;)
I think a lot of the strengths of your character are your magic items and build, not the strengths of the class itself. You may love your character, but maxing out Dex, then getting a storm giant belt would be insane for ANY fighter class, not just a samurai. :)
Out of interest, what subclass do you consider the best for fighter, and why?
For Fighter, honorable mention would be the Eldritch Knight. Being able to add martial enhancing spells like Shield, Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade is huge. On Shield, imagine having 20 AC and then as a reaction bump it to 25 for an entire round. Level 7 you can hit someone with Greenflame Blade and still have your second attack as a bonus action. There's too many good things to list about the Gish-inspired features and things you can do with the spells. It comes on late, but at level 13 you can cast Fireball - Action Surge - then Fireball again (although at that level enemies are stronger).
Only downside is your spell progression is sloooooooowwww.
But the most powerful in my opinion is the Echo knight. Your Echo Avatar is extremely powerful and it's an unlimited resource. There are so many things you can do with it, both in and out of combat. Too many to write up, but Treatmonk has a great YouTube video that covers it. He's pretty sharp and thorough, but I don't agree with him on everything, maybe 90%. He's right on the money with this one.
I probably haven't given the Echo Knight the attention it deserves to be honest, so I might have to give it a thorough inspection once my Rune Knight hunger is sated. There does appear to be a lot available to it, the echo itself is very cool and has some neat combat and non-combat interactions, and you can definitely role-play it nicely. I think the fact that you can just continually pump out the echo is an awesome feature, there is a lot to be said about having continual access to such a powerful resource.
Eldritch Knight looks very potent, but the appeal for me just isn't there, mechanics are very sound, but whenever I read it, it just doesn't jump out at me. It is probably one of those classes that you need to play to get a real feel for.
Out of interest, what subclass do you consider the best for fighter, and why?
Samurai. A fighter's a fighter, you gotta fight! You gotta be up and at 'em. I think the samurai, mechanically, is what the champion should have been-- a simple and straightforward yet powerful martial.
Why?
Because you get resilient wisdom for free. Because you get advantage whenever you want. Tireless spirit means you'll always have a use of fighting spirit when you need it. I built mine as an elf sharpshooter (original, right?), and by golly is it strong as it gets. This is it, folks, this is peak performance. I dumped STR, pumped up WIS to 16 at the start. I slapped on a storm belt and a black razor, gave it GWM, it now covered all its bases. But wait, SS, EA, DEX, GWM? I still had 3 whole other or ASIs to give it. Do I want more advantage? Mounted combatant with a wondrous figurine of a nightmare. Want more HP? Cap out CON/get tough, or a mix of both. Want more utility? Grab whatever you want, the world is yours because you're pretty strong defensively and offensively. Heck, you're even decent in social situations cause of elegant courtier.
Watch as I unleash superior steel folded over 10,000 times from forgotten realms !japan.
Interesting take, glad that you enjoy the samurai. It is probably, ironically, your opening comments that are the opposite of the reason I like the Rune Knight, you don't have to be just a fighter (yes, you have elegant courtier which is good outside of combat), you're just more than that, which is what appeals to me the most.
Yeah, on Eldritch Knight, I'm fascinated with the whole Gish thing. Being a competent spell caster and front line warrior. But for my flavor taste, Eldritch Knight doesn't have enough balance between the two. The most effective thing you can do with it is use magic to enhance your martial abilities.
I have a build idea that I want to do:
Eloquence Bard and later take a 1 level dip into Hexblade. With point buy start with 17 Charisma. At level 4 Bard get Fay Touched to raise it to 18. Now you have medium armor and shield, a longsword that uses your Charisma, booming blade, green flame blade, the shield spell, and all the goodies a level 1 hexblade gets. AND you're a full caster. Fey Touched gives you (functionally) an extra 1st and 2nd level spell slot, and you can misty step like a wizard, and cast bless like a cleric. And as a Bard you're also a skill monkey. As an Eloquence Bard you dominate social interactions. You're not just good at them, you freaking own them (look up Silver Tongue feature of EB).
It's like, you can do it all. You're not much of a blaster, but you are so much more than just a Bard. All for a 1 level dip at a feat.
The only thing I dislike about the Rune Knight is its Runic Shield ability, simply because it seems like it has a "bug." To be more specific, unless you save the ability to be used in a specific circumstance*, then there is always a 5% chance you make things worse for the person being attacked by turning a normal hit into a critical hit. Other than that, I love the flavor and other abilities of the Rune Knight and can mostly overlook the issue I have with its one feature
*if you only ever use Runic Shield to negate critical hits, then there is no chance of making the situation worse for your ally. Chances are, though, you may not get your full use out of the ability every day if you only save it for crits scored on nearby allies.
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For clarity, I do not think the subclass is bad. But it seems to be almost universally accepted as amazing. I just don't see it. I'll explain why, and I'm open to changing my mind.
The longest part of the discussion will be the runes, so I'll get Giant's Might out of the way. You become larger, gain advantage on strength checks and strength saves (which are relatively rare). This is good for shield master or a grapple/shove build, but I consider that to be niche. Next, you add 1d6 damage once per turn, an average of 3.5. I'll take the extra damage but it doesn't knock my socks off.
Next the runes.
Until level 7, all the rune passive abilities are advantage on skill checks that a fighter normally doesn't involve him/her self in - that rely on ability scores not normally very high on a fighter. One way to look at it, you essentially offset low scores on some skills with advantage - so - you gain some extra skills. That's cool, especially for a Fighter, who is not normally known for being a skill monkey. Exception: Stone Rune: You get darkvision to 120 feet. If you're a human or another race without it, this is great.
Now we can talk about the activated abilities. The first problem is (until level 7) you only get 2 uses per short rest. At level 7 it goes up to 3.
Cloud Rune: IMO this is the best among them, because there's no save. If something does a lot of a damage with a single attack roll, you can gift that damage to someone on the other side. Lovely! But only once per short rest. Maybe you can give yourself 2 Cloud Runes (I'm not sure about the rules). But then you're only getting the passive benefits from one rune.
Fire Rune: 2d6 fire damage + (save or suck) after effects. Once per short rest you can do 7 average extra damage automatic. Now a strength save, and if they make it that's all that happens. If not they're restrained, which is great, but they get a save every turn. This is potentially to great effect, *if* they fail multiple saves. But you can only do this once per short rest, and if they save right away, you're left disappointed. Watch out for fire resistance and immunity.
Frost Rune: +2 to some strength and constitution ability checks (what's a constitution ability check?), and +2 to strength and con saves. Con saves are common and often important, and this lasts 10 minutes. This is well worth it if you know you are going to need it for the fight ahead.
Stone Rune: Save or Suck, and a save on every turn. Enemy is charmed and incapacitated.
In summary, some of these options *can* be pulled off to great effect. The problem I have is you combine the "save or suck" dynamic to most of them with very limited use. The DC for the saves isn't terribly difficult. It starts out at DC 13 if you have a 16 Constitution. I'm not at all grading the Rune Knight an F, but I just don't see the super A++ that many people are giving it.
What am I missing or not considering?
So, my theory as to why it's getting near universal acclaim has to do with the simplicity of it. Right out the box, once per turn you do 1d6 extra damage. Now, you and I might look at this and think "pfft, big deal." but the thing is you just get it without any hassle or thought. A battlemaster has to think about what maneuvers to pick, and when to use them, for example. This may seem silly to you, but the fact that you just get 1d6 on your attack is an upfront boost to your DPR compared to other fighters. In tier 1, the rune knight is effectively the strongest fighter by far in terms of DPR.
And then there's the size. Being bigger, you naturally cover more ground and it's a tactical advantage. Sure, it's hard to quantify in numbers how this translates in practice, but it's still a neat advantage nonetheless. Slap on a halberd/glaive, and you see your area of threat increase to a considerable portion of any given map. Then there's the whole given fact that as a large creature, you have the given option to grapple a huge sized creature. Barring external assistance that may be party-comp-dependent, no other barbarian, fighter, nor glory paladin can pull off such a feat-- but you can.
Let's say a hard hitting monster manages to land a crit on a squishy party member. In this instance, most other fighters would start readying funeral arrangements. You, on the other hand, can make a difference. Cloud rune, bam, saved. This is a big deal! Now, here's the bigger picture: because of it's incredible, amazing defensive power, your team mates are going to want to have it as much as possible. In turn, the probability of a short rest occurring is greater because it's no longer about making sure the fighter's got their offensive power, but now because it's their ability to keep the party save as much as possible.
Fire rune, well, based on my experience playing a paladin, I don't see it as just 2d6. It's 4d6 on a crit! When that happens, who cares if the enemy makes their save? In the mean time, I just unloaded some sweet damage. If the creature fails their save, that's just icing on the cake.
Come level 7, you'd be a fool to take anything other than hill rune. Now you have the barbarian's resistances. Now, for most incoming damage, your HP pool is effectively doubled. Again, no other fighter gets that benefit. Come level 7, and you get some portions of the Lucky feat for free. You support your party by negating crits! DM rolled a nat20? No they didn't, cause Runic Shield.
Being a class that uses their bonus action fairly frequently, this frees up this particular fighter from needing to take PAM to optimize damage. This frees up the possiblity to grab res: whatever, increase CON for better DCs, or just cap out on STR with GWM. If I were building this character, I'd start with a 17 in STR, pick up skill expert for +1 STR, and play around with the skills needed to lean further into the rune knight's skillmonkey-ish capabilities.
it's also a more skills-based fighter, so whereas other fighters are twiddling their thumbs unable to contribute much in social or exploration, the rune knight can possibly do so, or at least help group checks by not sucking as much. Now, you mention a fighter may not have as high stats in certain areas related to the skills, but why not? I'd argue you just need high CON & STR. With point buy, you could build a third stat as you please. You could be charismatic or wise. You could be dexterous and good with tools (which fire rune improves with expertise basically).
In short, we've got a fighter who at the start is already offensively stronger, has significant party support, and a neat DPR spike with a fire-smite, and out-of-combat capabilties. Later on, they become the tankiest single-class fighter. The party with the rune knight can be ensured their squishy party members will never know the cold embrace of a crit thanks to cloud and runic shield.
That's why a lot of people think it's great.
@cgarcio covered a lot of it, but I just want to add a bit to what they said. You're both completely correct that the official version doesn't live up to the "OMG this is the best freaking Fighter subclass in the game!" reputation that likely was spawned by the Unearthed Arcana version, but it's still really, really good, especially when compared to most of the other Fighter subclasses (Purple Dragon Knights hide in shame when they read the mechanics of the Rune Knight, Champions sit crying in a corner at them being both mechanically effective and simple to understand, Arcane Archers complain about it being unfair that they get to be both cool and mechanically effective). Sure, there are some Fighter subclasses that can be just as (if not more) mechanically effective (like Battlemasters and Echo Knights), but Rune Knights are just cooler than Battlemasters and more widely-thematic than Echo Knights.
Besides comparing them to other subclasses, their abilities are actually quite good. They get a lot at level 3; Smith's Tools and Giant Language proficiency, permanent advantage on 3-4 skills (possibly replacing one of the skills with 120 feet of darkvision), two abilities with a variety of combat usages that refresh on a short rest (which you should be able to take after most combat encounters), and an ability to become Large 2 times a day for one minute, not even taking concentration and capable of being stacked with an ally casting Enlarge on you. Being Large grants you advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws (just adding to the 3-4 skills that you already have permanent advantage on), lets you reach farther than you could previously (not by increasing your reach, but making you cover more squares and thus have a larger perimeter of squares that are within 5 feet of you), and lets you deal an extra 1d6 damage each round. On their own, none of these abilities make me think "Wow! That's a super awesome and amazingly powerful ability!", but all put together, the subclass starts off really impressively. And, you get access to even more impressive features as you level up (Hill Rune, Runic Shield, Master of Runes, increased Giant's Might damage die, becoming huge when you use Giant's Might, etc).
It's just a lot of really good and useful features. None of them are "oh, that's absolutely never going to be useful", and even the ones that are more situational will be very useful in the situations that they do come up in.
Furthermore, in a way, they're kind of a mixture of how Rangers and Paladins are balanced, but they get both of the benefits. Giant's Might damage is comparable to a non-concentration version of Favored Foe, and the Fire Rune's damaging feature is comparable to Divine Smite with an additional restraining effect. Paladins are nova, rangers deal consistent damage, and you can do a bit of both, as well as having abilities to debuff enemies, mitigate damage to your allies, contribute in social interaction and exploration, use your Large/Huge size in creative and interesting ways, be useful in downtime (due to Smiths' tools), possibly be better with interacting with giants (through being capable of growing and being able to speak Giant).
They're not objectively, completely better than every other Fighter subclass in the game, but they're pretty good at everything they do, and they do a lot.
IMO, that's why they're now getting all the praise that they're getting. They're just plain good. No one's going to complain about having another good, cool, interesting Fighter subclass, especially after years of just tons of Battlemaster fighters.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The runes are only part of the equation. There is also the Giants Might, which gives damage bonuses every round, and lets the fighter shove prone creatures far larger than usual, generating a source of advantage that wouldn't normally be available for some opponents, and doing so easily with advantage against larger or smaller opponents.
Then at level 7 you get Runic Shield, which is pretty strong.
So yes, if all the Rune Knight got from levels 3-6 were the 2 runes that could be used twice per short rest, the subclass would hang out with the Champion and purple dragon knight as underwhelming. But you get another strong 3rd level ability, and have more runes and another strong ability waiting at 7th level.
Arguably, the Rune Knight gets more spell like effects of stronger value available to it than the Eldritch Knight. Just imagine it this way: a subclass that can cast a better, concentration free version of enlarge on itself a number of times per day equal to its proficiency modifier. And it gets other bonuses. That is pretty huge.
Literally am playing a rune knight right now in Curse of Strahd, and that STR save advantage has been huge (pun intended) against all the damn wolves trying to knock me prone.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Nice. I'm considering playing a Halfling Rune Knight at some point. Just for the laughs or a large-sized Halfling :)
Yeah dude! That's a character I've got, sorta. Except it's a gnome.
But when he goes big, he doesn't just look like an expanded gnome. It's like the dynamic between Billy Batson and Captain Marvel, or Yugi Mutou and The Pharaoh, or He-man. I've flavored it as him channeling the magic runes on his greatsword, and he goes from a soft, baby-faced gnome to a towering ripped Adonis of a specimen. Then he's able to use the greatsword as a large-sized creature!
This is really what drew me to the class -- not the features, but the possibilities when it comes to playing with the flavor of it. I'm doing a whole body horror thing with mine, and as he increases in level (and eventually MCs into Aberrant Mind sorcerer too) those Giant's Might transformations are going to get a lot weirder than just 'he big boi now'.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah then level 7 comes and you get to impose DIS on a Saving Throw as a reaction for a full minute or potentially 10 saves.....dear lord how good that is....and 60ft radius holy shit.
By comparison the Sorcerer would only get to impose DIS on a saving throw for one of their spells TWICE PER DAY at this same point.
Having this fighter with a caster group would be straight up ridiculous as a Hold Person or Hold Monster spell would be extremely hard to beat with DIS on a lot of creatures.
Not to mention if other save modifiers come into play....like if the Warlock uses Mind Sliver or if you have an eloquence bard.
The synergy is what makes it so crazy for me....
Also you can just get one of the best benefits of Rage with the Hill Giant rune.
Overall 7+ is where the subclass gets straight crazy to me.
Yeah, that save debuf is what draws me to the Eloquence Bard (and I've played one). My "to do" list is a Fighter with two levels of Barbarian. Adding reckless attack and two rages in the mix with Giant's Might and the runes... now I'll feel like I can use abilities liberally.
A pet peeve of mine is only having very limited use abilities.
Now Rune Knight is by far my favourite Fighter subclass (in reality the only one I actually feel any kind of attraction to), so I can't really add to the conversation in terms of is it overrated or not. I really like the runes giving you advantage on skill checks and tbh the fire rune giving expertise in tools just makes me incredibly happy, the combat stuff is neat too, but I just love how much extra it brings to a Fighter, that utility outside of combat.
Obviously at level 7 the Storm Rune is a wonderful addition, but I want to know, for anyone who has hit level 15 in Rune Knight, what did it feel like going from 4 spell-like abilities per short rest to 10 spell-like abilities per short rest? It just seems an incredible jump in resources available.
For me the skills are just odd ball, especially for a fighter. Like slight or hand? I wish they did just a little bit better on those passive abilities.
Advantage on tools is cool if you use them, and honestly I probably should be cognitive about finding ways to use them more.
Yeah, I think you really have to lean into the skills if you want to get the best out of them, you're not playing a fighter, you're playing a runic master who can also fight. I like that they force you to consider the fighter as something else. I think I'm relatively lucky with my build here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Dravaal28/characters/41000894 that the campaign I'm in is less combat focused so I could build sub optimally for combat, plus I took that first level in rogue to really get the most out of my skills. Sure I'm one level behind on extra attack but tbh the flavour of the character really is what makes me want to play him.
The tool use is really potent IF your campaign uses tools/downtime a lot, but falls off a cliff if it doesn't. Coupled with my deception, sleight of hand and proficiency in the Dragonchess tool, I can really play into that strength and be a dragonchess shark in downtime, or I can make weapons and armour with my smiths tools, plus having thieves tools is a massive bonus.
I appreciate that not everyone is in the same boat as me, and that's OK.
Out of interest, what subclass do you consider the best for fighter, and why?
Samurai. A fighter's a fighter, you gotta fight! You gotta be up and at 'em. I think the samurai, mechanically, is what the champion should have been-- a simple and straightforward yet powerful martial.
Why?
Because you get resilient wisdom for free. Because you get advantage whenever you want. Tireless spirit means you'll always have a use of fighting spirit when you need it. I built mine as an elf sharpshooter (original, right?), and by golly is it strong as it gets. This is it, folks, this is peak performance. I dumped STR, pumped up WIS to 16 at the start. I slapped on a storm belt and a black razor, gave it GWM, it now covered all its bases. But wait, SS, EA, DEX, GWM? I still had 3 whole other or ASIs to give it. Do I want more advantage? Mounted combatant with a wondrous figurine of a nightmare. Want more HP? Cap out CON/get tough, or a mix of both. Want more utility? Grab whatever you want, the world is yours because you're pretty strong defensively and offensively. Heck, you're even decent in social situations cause of elegant courtier.
Watch as I unleash superior steel folded over 10,000 times from forgotten realms !japan.
For Fighter, honorable mention would be the Eldritch Knight. Being able to add martial enhancing spells like Shield, Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade is huge. On Shield, imagine having 20 AC and then as a reaction bump it to 25 for an entire round. Level 7 you can hit someone with Greenflame Blade and still have your second attack as a bonus action. There's too many good things to list about the Gish-inspired features and things you can do with the spells. It comes on late, but at level 13 you can cast Fireball - Action Surge - then Fireball again (although at that level enemies are stronger).
Only downside is your spell progression is sloooooooowwww.
But the most powerful in my opinion is the Echo knight. Your Echo Avatar is extremely powerful and it's an unlimited resource. There are so many things you can do with it, both in and out of combat. Too many to write up, but Treatmonk has a great YouTube video that covers it. He's pretty sharp and thorough, but I don't agree with him on everything, maybe 90%. He's right on the money with this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swI9tWwi7l0
If my rune knight happens to bite it in this CoS campaign (pun intended), one of my backup character ideas is to come back in with an echo knight -- his little sister, with the echo reskinned as the ghost of her dead twin
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Not seeing this one.
You get advantage whenever you want it...as long as you only want it three times a day. You have to get to 10th level to get it once more, every time you roll initiative. So you will have it once per fight, at minimum. That part is ok, but certainly not spectacular. Advantage for one turn isn't really all that much imo.
Proficiency in Wisdom saves is nice and situationally useful. It does give you a free Res (Wis) feat, essentially. But probably not crucial at level 7, better if your game goes into the teens. I only have a +1 to Wis on my fighter/barbarian in an Icewind Dale campaign and the other fighter is -1 Wis. We have only had to make a few Wis saves, so far. So it really hasn't been an issue in Icewind Dale.
Rapid Strike is nice and a good trade off. An extra attack is easily more valuable than making an attack with advantage. This is the strongest ability I have seen from Samurai. At 15th level, you would have 3 attacks already and can make a 4th with this ability. Throw in duel wield or polearm master and you get 5 attacks! Pretty strong.
Strength before Death is basically just spitting in their eye on your way out! ;)
I think a lot of the strengths of your character are your magic items and build, not the strengths of the class itself. You may love your character, but maxing out Dex, then getting a storm giant belt would be insane for ANY fighter class, not just a samurai. :)
I probably haven't given the Echo Knight the attention it deserves to be honest, so I might have to give it a thorough inspection once my Rune Knight hunger is sated. There does appear to be a lot available to it, the echo itself is very cool and has some neat combat and non-combat interactions, and you can definitely role-play it nicely. I think the fact that you can just continually pump out the echo is an awesome feature, there is a lot to be said about having continual access to such a powerful resource.
Eldritch Knight looks very potent, but the appeal for me just isn't there, mechanics are very sound, but whenever I read it, it just doesn't jump out at me. It is probably one of those classes that you need to play to get a real feel for.
Interesting take, glad that you enjoy the samurai. It is probably, ironically, your opening comments that are the opposite of the reason I like the Rune Knight, you don't have to be just a fighter (yes, you have elegant courtier which is good outside of combat), you're just more than that, which is what appeals to me the most.
Yeah, on Eldritch Knight, I'm fascinated with the whole Gish thing. Being a competent spell caster and front line warrior. But for my flavor taste, Eldritch Knight doesn't have enough balance between the two. The most effective thing you can do with it is use magic to enhance your martial abilities.
I have a build idea that I want to do:
Eloquence Bard and later take a 1 level dip into Hexblade. With point buy start with 17 Charisma. At level 4 Bard get Fay Touched to raise it to 18. Now you have medium armor and shield, a longsword that uses your Charisma, booming blade, green flame blade, the shield spell, and all the goodies a level 1 hexblade gets. AND you're a full caster. Fey Touched gives you (functionally) an extra 1st and 2nd level spell slot, and you can misty step like a wizard, and cast bless like a cleric. And as a Bard you're also a skill monkey. As an Eloquence Bard you dominate social interactions. You're not just good at them, you freaking own them (look up Silver Tongue feature of EB).
It's like, you can do it all. You're not much of a blaster, but you are so much more than just a Bard. All for a 1 level dip at a feat.
The only thing I dislike about the Rune Knight is its Runic Shield ability, simply because it seems like it has a "bug." To be more specific, unless you save the ability to be used in a specific circumstance*, then there is always a 5% chance you make things worse for the person being attacked by turning a normal hit into a critical hit. Other than that, I love the flavor and other abilities of the Rune Knight and can mostly overlook the issue I have with its one feature
*if you only ever use Runic Shield to negate critical hits, then there is no chance of making the situation worse for your ally. Chances are, though, you may not get your full use out of the ability every day if you only save it for crits scored on nearby allies.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!