I need help with leveling up my fighter. He is a human fighter, and will take Samurai at lvl 3. He wields a Greatsword, using the great weapon fighting style. His party includes a Monk, Sorcerer, Artificer, Druid, and him. I used point buy for stats, so he has 16 STR, 14 CON, 14 DEX, 12 CHA, 12 WIS, and 11 INT. Is it better to do ASIs for better stats or get some feats. Also, which feats?
Taking +2 to str is always a solid choice. If you’re looking for feats, Great Weapon master is a good choice to boost damage. It’s a pretty popular choice as well. Sentinel can be good if you need to try and protect the rest of the party. Lucky is a good, all-purpose choice
Fey Touched can give you some mobility and one other spell, like hex if you want to really unload on someone (hex, plus multiattack, plus action surge, plus self advantage would be pretty nasty).
Amazing to see someone playing a non-variant human...
That said, the 11 in INT is completely wasted. If you had given yourself 13 in one of the other abilitites there would be a whole slew of interesting half-feats that you could have picked. I'd ask the gM if I could turn that INT 11 into a WIS 13 and then pick a half-feat that would raise it to 14. Either that or just boost Strength. What level do you expect to play to?
A straight increase to strength is always good, but never make yourself think its necessary. Your attacks' chance to hit scales way more off of your proficiency bonus than your modifier, so a 16 is all that already serviceable the whole game through.
If you want a feat for more damage, Great Weapon Master can't be beat. But its potentially a little boring a min-maxing.
I would be tempted to take the Magic initiate feat and see if your DM would let you flavor the handful of spells it gives you as non-magical abilities. Like describing the Shield Spell as a defensive sword dance, and reskin an attack cantrip like Ray of Frost as some kind of ranged anime sword technique. Grabbing Vicious mockery to insult enemies who won't fight you in melee also screams "Samurai."
A straight increase to strength is always good, but never make yourself think its necessary. Your attacks' chance to hit scales way more off of your proficiency bonus than your modifier, so a 16 is all that already serviceable the whole game through.
Not really. A fighter can have a Ability bonus of +5 at level 6. You don't get a +5 PB until level 13. And even at level 17 when you get a +6 PB it's not "way more".
If you want a feat for more damage, Great Weapon Master can't be beat. But its potentially a little boring a min-maxing.
It's not really min-maxing.
I would be tempted to take the Magic initiate feat and see if your DM would let you flavor the handful of spells it gives you as non-magical abilities. Like describing the Shield Spell as a defensive sword dance, and reskin an attack cantrip like Ray of Frost as some kind of ranged anime sword technique. Grabbing Vicious mockery to insult enemies who won't fight you in melee also screams "Samurai."
I'd stay away from and feat that gives a non-magic user such a situational and fleeting spell such as shield. You get +5AC for a single round once per long rest. That's not really worth the cost of it. If you want to take Magic Initiate there are so many other great spells you can choose.
Not really. A fighter can have a Ability bonus of +5 at level 6. You don't get a +5 PB until level 13. And even at level 17 when you get a +6 PB it's not "way more".
That'd be fair point if I said "just take a 10 in strength." But with a 16, we are only talking about a +2 in improvement over 8 levels (6 for fighter). That isn't nothing, but again its not earth shattering. Especially not when you will naturally get +4 more from proficiency over the course of leveling, along with any magic weapon bonuses and all the ways of generating advantage.
And if the player really does feel a need to squeeze out every ounce of damage, they can pick up strength ASI at higher levels. My point is just that its not some hard coded part of the game that strength ASI's are absolutely the best or strictly necessary for the first few ASI, especially if this is just casual play rather than some grindy pro-war gaming campaign.
It's not really min-maxing.
Its necessary to even start min-maxing a fighter, but yeah its not automatically minmaxing, just has the potential to head that way.
I'd stay away from and feat that gives a non-magic user such a situational and fleeting spell such as shield. You get +5AC for a single round once per long rest. That's not really worth the cost of it. If you want to take Magic Initiate there are so many other great spells you can choose.
I'd say it depends on the type of play. Me and most players I know only get to squeeze in sessions that are 2-3 hours with 1 big combat tops. A shield spell used by a martial at the right moment can kill a group of enemy's whole action economy for a round. But yeah, there are a lot of great spells to choose from.
But I just suggest it more for the fun of it. Its nice to have a ranged attack cantrip if there is nothing else you can practically do, and a utility cantrip can be great for roleplay and out of combat problems. And cause its a simple introduction to spellcasting to boot, if this is a newer player.
Not really. A fighter can have a Ability bonus of +5 at level 6. You don't get a +5 PB until level 13. And even at level 17 when you get a +6 PB it's not "way more".
That'd be fair point if I said "just take a 10 in strength." But with a 16, we are only talking about a +2 in improvement over 8 levels (6 for fighter). That isn't nothing, but again its not earth shattering. Especially not when you will naturally get +4 more from proficiency over the course of leveling, along with any magic weapon bonuses and all the ways of generating advantage.
And the +4 from PB is only one more than +3 from Strength but you don't get it until level 9, three levels and three ASIs/Feats later than you can max out Strength. You do realize that a +1 or 2 isn't "way more" (as you claimed) no matter where it comes from?
And if the player really does feel a need to squeeze out every ounce of damage, they can pick up strength ASI at higher levels. My point is just that its not some hard coded part of the game that strength ASI's are absolutely the best or strictly necessary for the first few ASI, especially if this is just casual play rather than some grindy pro-war gaming campaign.
It's not really min-maxing.
Its necessary to even start min-maxing a fighter, but yeah its not automatically minmaxing, just has the potential to head that way.
So it's literally not min-maxing. Why couldn't you just say that and admit that you're wrong instead of moving the goalpost?
I'd stay away from and feat that gives a non-magic user such a situational and fleeting spell such as shield. You get +5AC for a single round once per long rest. That's not really worth the cost of it. If you want to take Magic Initiate there are so many other great spells you can choose.
I'd say it depends on the type of play. Me and most players I know only get to squeeze in sessions that are 2-3 hours with 1 big combat tops. A shield spell used by a martial at the right moment can kill a group of enemy's whole action economy for a round. But yeah, there are a lot of great spells to choose from.
With only a single combat every session it is even more worthless. If you get a spell that is actually useful even outside of combat you can make use of that feat more than a single round per session.
But I just suggest it more for the fun of it. Its nice to have a ranged attack cantrip if there is nothing else you can practically do, and a utility cantrip can be great for roleplay and out of combat problems. And cause its a simple introduction to spellcasting to boot, if this is a newer player.
Who said anything about not taking ranged cantrips?
nd the +4 from PB is only one more than +3 from Strength but you don't get it until level 9, three levels and three ASIs/Feats later than you can max out Strength. You do realize that a +1 or 2 isn't "way more" (as you claimed) no matter where it comes from?
That is exactly my point though, its not going to make the character weak to put off an ASI for their attack stat. Even just a 16 will be pretty serviceable throughout a campaign because of how bounded accuracy works with PB and all the other sources of increasing hit chances.
So it's literally not min-maxing. Why couldn't you just say that and admit that you're wrong instead of moving the goalpost?
Because I never said its min maxing. Just potentially so. [REDACTED] It can mess with the vibe of the game if one character pulls too far ahead of the others because they can just take such an easy + 10 damage to every attack with little downside. Especially if there are other martial characters.
With only a single combat every session it is even more worthless. If you get a spell that is actually useful even outside of combat you can make use of that feat more than a single round per session.
That is pretty backwards. Getting to use the shield spell for 1/6th of an entire combat encounter for a guaranteed benefit is pretty over powered, as much so as any other one use 1st level spell.
As for using the feat for more than a single round per session... no 1st level spell choice is going to do that practically, except maybe Find Familiar. That is what the cantrip options are for. I'd even suggest that spell, but it really depends on the DM and what they'll let you do with it before a goblin puts an arrow in your familiar.
And I never accused you of saying anything back about ranged attack cantrips, I was just listing all the reasons I think magic initiate is a fun and validly useful alternative to a straight ASI increase.
And now this has gone so long and has so much jargon and ill will that its probably absolutely unhelpful to the OP.
nd the +4 from PB is only one more than +3 from Strength but you don't get it until level 9, three levels and three ASIs/Feats later than you can max out Strength. You do realize that a +1 or 2 isn't "way more" (as you claimed) no matter where it comes from?
That is exactly my point though, its not going to make the character weak to put off an ASI for their attack stat.
No, that was not the point you were making. You literally wrote that the bonus you get from Pb is "way more" than what you get from your ability scores. Which, as you yourrself has admitted, is demonstrably not true. Don't move the goalposts.
Even just a 16 will be pretty serviceable throughout a campaign because of how bounded accuracy works with PB and all the other sources of increasing hit chances.
Sure but that's not what I was replying to.
So it's literally not min-maxing. Why couldn't you just say that and admit that you're wrong instead of moving the goalpost?
Because I never said its min maxing. Just potentially so. You're being the pedantic ahole moving the goal posts here. It can mess with the vibe of the game if one character pulls too far ahead of the others because they can just take such an easy + 10 damage to every attack with little downside. Especially if there are other martial characters.
No need to be rude just because you don't want to admit that you're wrong. Also, what you said was that it was "potentially boring" and "a min-maxing" (whatever "a" min-maxing is). And as you yourself has admitted, it's not min-maxing. You don't minimize anything by taking the GWM feat. And if taking a feat is "potentially" minmacing, then so is taking the Magic Initiate feat or even raising your strength with an ASI. Heck, by your logic, everything is potential min-maxing. As you can see, it just doesn't hold up.
With only a single combat every session it is even more worthless. If you get a spell that is actually useful even outside of combat you can make use of that feat more than a single round per session.
That is pretty backwards. Getting to use the shield spell for 1/6th of an entire combat encounter for a guaranteed benefit is pretty over powered, as much so as any other one use 1st level spell.
So the OP shield spell is OK but not GWM? I thought you didn't want "a" min-maxing? Also, most people might want something that isn't useful for just 6 seconds per 3 hour session. And the price you pay is still steep, the point stands.
As for using the feat for more than a single round per session... no 1st level spell choice is going to do that practically, except maybe Find Familiar. That is what the cantrip options are for. I'd even suggest that spell, but it really depends on the DM and what they'll let you do with it before a goblin puts an arrow in your familiar.
Demonstrably not true. Here a short selection of 1st level spells that lasts for more than one round: Alarm, Animal Friendship, Armor of Agathys, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, False Life, Gift of Alacrity, Feather Fall, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Illusory Script, Longstrider, Mage Armor, Sanctuary, Speak With Animals, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant.
And I never accused you of saying anything back about ranged attack cantrips, I was just listing all the reasons I think magic initiate is a fun and validly useful alternative to a straight ASI increase.
And now this has gone so long and has so much jargon and ill will that its probably absolutely unhelpful to the OP.
So why bring something irrelevant up if you wanted to be helpful to the OP?
No, that was not the point you were making. You literally wrote that the bonus you get from Pb is "way more" than what you get from your ability scores. Which, as you yourrself has admitted, is demonstrably not true. Don't move the goalposts.
I want to try to be charitable here. How do you think that a +2 that grows into a +6 over the course of the game is less than a +1 from an ASI? It sounds like we ultimately agree, but are coming at this from different angles.
Sure but that's not what I was replying to.
Ok, just please be clear about that then. My original comment included that, so I do not understand why you are focusing on the strength modifier as a whole, as you did when you talked about "A fighter can have a Ability bonus of +5 at level 6. You don't get a +5 PB until level 13." The +3 from the 16 is already accounted for, so we are just talking about the first ASI here. Im sorry if that wasn't clear.
No need to be rude just because you don't want to admit that you're wrong. Also, what you said was that it was "potentially boring" and "a min-maxing" (whatever "a" min-maxing is). And as you yourself has admitted, it's not min-maxing. You don't minimize anything by taking the GWM feat. And if taking a feat is "potentially" minmacing, then so is taking the Magic Initiate feat or even raising your strength with an ASI. Heck, by your logic, everything is potential min-maxing. As you can see, it just doesn't hold up.
I think we've both gotten a little salty here, talking past each other a bit. Sorry about that.
Grammar aside, my point was just that GWM can make it feel like a character shines a lot more than their comrades, even if they aren't minmaxing on purpose. Just a potential thing because of how much stronger the feat is compared to others, which is why I phrased it that way from the start.
So the OP shield spell is OK but not GWM? I thought you didn't want "a" min-maxing? Also, most people might want something that isn't useful for just 6 seconds per 3 hour session. And the price you pay is still steep, the point stands.
Its a single use spell, not something that can be spammed every round of combat. Its also an interesting option that is normally part of the Samurai Fighter's kit and has to be used strategically.
Not more op than other spells and maybe not even strictly better than an ASI from a min-maxing perspective. Just a fun option, as I've framed it from the beginning.
Demonstrably not true. Here a short selection of 1st level spells that lasts for more than one round: Alarm, Animal Friendship, Armor of Agathys, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, False Life, Gift of Alacrity, Feather Fall, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Illusory Script, Longstrider, Mage Armor, Sanctuary, Speak With Animals, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant.
Sure, there are other spells, mostly out of combat ones, that can last more than 6 seconds. But my point is that you are still only getting one actual use out of them per day.
They can be valid picks for whatever the player wants, I just suggested the Shield Spell as something that fits well with a Samurai character.
So why bring something irrelevant up if you wanted to be helpful to the OP?
What do you think I brought up that was irrelevant? The player asked for advice on ASI vs feats, and feat suggestions. So I gave advice and some suggestions about feats.
You did too. I hadn't even considered the idea of rounding out one of their other scores with a half feat. Fey touched sounds great for a Samurai character too, especially the misty step being used for an unexpectedly fast charge.
Is there a reason you didn't suggest GWM though?
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I need help with leveling up my fighter. He is a human fighter, and will take Samurai at lvl 3. He wields a Greatsword, using the great weapon fighting style. His party includes a Monk, Sorcerer, Artificer, Druid, and him. I used point buy for stats, so he has 16 STR, 14 CON, 14 DEX, 12 CHA, 12 WIS, and 11 INT. Is it better to do ASIs for better stats or get some feats. Also, which feats?
Taking +2 to str is always a solid choice.
If you’re looking for feats, Great Weapon master is a good choice to boost damage. It’s a pretty popular choice as well.
Sentinel can be good if you need to try and protect the rest of the party.
Lucky is a good, all-purpose choice
Fey Touched can give you some mobility and one other spell, like hex if you want to really unload on someone (hex, plus multiattack, plus action surge, plus self advantage would be pretty nasty).
Amazing to see someone playing a non-variant human...
That said, the 11 in INT is completely wasted. If you had given yourself 13 in one of the other abilitites there would be a whole slew of interesting half-feats that you could have picked. I'd ask the gM if I could turn that INT 11 into a WIS 13 and then pick a half-feat that would raise it to 14. Either that or just boost Strength. What level do you expect to play to?
A straight increase to strength is always good, but never make yourself think its necessary. Your attacks' chance to hit scales way more off of your proficiency bonus than your modifier, so a 16 is all that already serviceable the whole game through.
If you want a feat for more damage, Great Weapon Master can't be beat. But its potentially a little boring a min-maxing.
I would be tempted to take the Magic initiate feat and see if your DM would let you flavor the handful of spells it gives you as non-magical abilities. Like describing the Shield Spell as a defensive sword dance, and reskin an attack cantrip like Ray of Frost as some kind of ranged anime sword technique. Grabbing Vicious mockery to insult enemies who won't fight you in melee also screams "Samurai."
Lot of great flavor choices there.
Not really. A fighter can have a Ability bonus of +5 at level 6. You don't get a +5 PB until level 13. And even at level 17 when you get a +6 PB it's not "way more".
It's not really min-maxing.
I'd stay away from and feat that gives a non-magic user such a situational and fleeting spell such as shield. You get +5AC for a single round once per long rest. That's not really worth the cost of it. If you want to take Magic Initiate there are so many other great spells you can choose.
That'd be fair point if I said "just take a 10 in strength." But with a 16, we are only talking about a +2 in improvement over 8 levels (6 for fighter). That isn't nothing, but again its not earth shattering. Especially not when you will naturally get +4 more from proficiency over the course of leveling, along with any magic weapon bonuses and all the ways of generating advantage.
And if the player really does feel a need to squeeze out every ounce of damage, they can pick up strength ASI at higher levels. My point is just that its not some hard coded part of the game that strength ASI's are absolutely the best or strictly necessary for the first few ASI, especially if this is just casual play rather than some grindy pro-war gaming campaign.
Its necessary to even start min-maxing a fighter, but yeah its not automatically minmaxing, just has the potential to head that way.
I'd say it depends on the type of play. Me and most players I know only get to squeeze in sessions that are 2-3 hours with 1 big combat tops. A shield spell used by a martial at the right moment can kill a group of enemy's whole action economy for a round. But yeah, there are a lot of great spells to choose from.
But I just suggest it more for the fun of it. Its nice to have a ranged attack cantrip if there is nothing else you can practically do, and a utility cantrip can be great for roleplay and out of combat problems. And cause its a simple introduction to spellcasting to boot, if this is a newer player.
And the +4 from PB is only one more than +3 from Strength but you don't get it until level 9, three levels and three ASIs/Feats later than you can max out Strength. You do realize that a +1 or 2 isn't "way more" (as you claimed) no matter where it comes from?
So it's literally not min-maxing. Why couldn't you just say that and admit that you're wrong instead of moving the goalpost?
With only a single combat every session it is even more worthless. If you get a spell that is actually useful even outside of combat you can make use of that feat more than a single round per session.
Who said anything about not taking ranged cantrips?
That is exactly my point though, its not going to make the character weak to put off an ASI for their attack stat. Even just a 16 will be pretty serviceable throughout a campaign because of how bounded accuracy works with PB and all the other sources of increasing hit chances.
Because I never said its min maxing. Just potentially so. [REDACTED] It can mess with the vibe of the game if one character pulls too far ahead of the others because they can just take such an easy + 10 damage to every attack with little downside. Especially if there are other martial characters.
That is pretty backwards. Getting to use the shield spell for 1/6th of an entire combat encounter for a guaranteed benefit is pretty over powered, as much so as any other one use 1st level spell.
As for using the feat for more than a single round per session... no 1st level spell choice is going to do that practically, except maybe Find Familiar. That is what the cantrip options are for. I'd even suggest that spell, but it really depends on the DM and what they'll let you do with it before a goblin puts an arrow in your familiar.
And I never accused you of saying anything back about ranged attack cantrips, I was just listing all the reasons I think magic initiate is a fun and validly useful alternative to a straight ASI increase.
And now this has gone so long and has so much jargon and ill will that its probably absolutely unhelpful to the OP.
No, that was not the point you were making. You literally wrote that the bonus you get from Pb is "way more" than what you get from your ability scores. Which, as you yourrself has admitted, is demonstrably not true. Don't move the goalposts.
Sure but that's not what I was replying to.
No need to be rude just because you don't want to admit that you're wrong. Also, what you said was that it was "potentially boring" and "a min-maxing" (whatever "a" min-maxing is). And as you yourself has admitted, it's not min-maxing. You don't minimize anything by taking the GWM feat. And if taking a feat is "potentially" minmacing, then so is taking the Magic Initiate feat or even raising your strength with an ASI. Heck, by your logic, everything is potential min-maxing. As you can see, it just doesn't hold up.
So the OP shield spell is OK but not GWM? I thought you didn't want "a" min-maxing? Also, most people might want something that isn't useful for just 6 seconds per 3 hour session. And the price you pay is still steep, the point stands.
Demonstrably not true. Here a short selection of 1st level spells that lasts for more than one round: Alarm, Animal Friendship, Armor of Agathys, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, False Life, Gift of Alacrity, Feather Fall, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Illusory Script, Longstrider, Mage Armor, Sanctuary, Speak With Animals, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant.
So why bring something irrelevant up if you wanted to be helpful to the OP?
I want to try to be charitable here. How do you think that a +2 that grows into a +6 over the course of the game is less than a +1 from an ASI? It sounds like we ultimately agree, but are coming at this from different angles.
Ok, just please be clear about that then. My original comment included that, so I do not understand why you are focusing on the strength modifier as a whole, as you did when you talked about "A fighter can have a Ability bonus of +5 at level 6. You don't get a +5 PB until level 13." The +3 from the 16 is already accounted for, so we are just talking about the first ASI here. Im sorry if that wasn't clear.
I think we've both gotten a little salty here, talking past each other a bit. Sorry about that.
Grammar aside, my point was just that GWM can make it feel like a character shines a lot more than their comrades, even if they aren't minmaxing on purpose. Just a potential thing because of how much stronger the feat is compared to others, which is why I phrased it that way from the start.
Its a single use spell, not something that can be spammed every round of combat. Its also an interesting option that is normally part of the Samurai Fighter's kit and has to be used strategically.
Not more op than other spells and maybe not even strictly better than an ASI from a min-maxing perspective. Just a fun option, as I've framed it from the beginning.
Sure, there are other spells, mostly out of combat ones, that can last more than 6 seconds. But my point is that you are still only getting one actual use out of them per day.
They can be valid picks for whatever the player wants, I just suggested the Shield Spell as something that fits well with a Samurai character.
What do you think I brought up that was irrelevant? The player asked for advice on ASI vs feats, and feat suggestions. So I gave advice and some suggestions about feats.
You did too. I hadn't even considered the idea of rounding out one of their other scores with a half feat. Fey touched sounds great for a Samurai character too, especially the misty step being used for an unexpectedly fast charge.
Is there a reason you didn't suggest GWM though?