I am looking into creating an archer and came across this question which is why it is here then the more generic rules thread.
Crossbow Expert PHB-2024, pg. 203
Ignore Loading. You ignore the Loading property of crossbows. You can load ammunition into a crossbow even if you lack a free hand.
Dual Wielding. When you make the extra attack of a weapon with the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the extra attack.
If I get this at level 4 (I won't but trying to understand), then I have one attack with one hand, and a second attack as a bonus action using my dex bonus with the other hand. When do I actually load so I can shoot in the next turn? Immediately after firing?
I assume there are 3 crossbows I can potentially duel wield. Heavy/light/hand. Based on the light property only one I can actually use is the one handed Hand crossbow, because the light crossbow does not have the "light" property, just it's name? The Heavy/light crossbow need two hands so cannot be dual wielded?
Assuming I get sharpshooter at Lvl4, now I can use my crossbows up to long range at no penalty. I get 2 attacks at Lvl5. Based on the crossbow feat that I get at level 6.
I can shoot one cross bow twice (I can load in between attacks?) and during my bonus action I shoot a 2nd crossbow (use my dex bonus for damage).
Something seems off, but I am not sure what I am missing.
If I get this at level 4 (I won't but trying to understand), then I have one attack with one hand, and a second attack as a bonus action using my dex bonus with the other hand. When do I actually load so I can shoot in the next turn? Immediately after firing?
5e D&D doesn't model loading ammunition into a weapon as a thing you have to actually say that you're doing, so it doesn't really matter. The Loading property just limits how often you can fire a weapon that has it. Crossbow Expert lets you ignore that property for crossbows, making it possible to shoot the same crossbow more than once per turn.
I assume there are 3 crossbows I can potentially duel wield. Heavy/light/hand. Based on the light property only one I can actually use is the one handed Hand crossbow, because the light crossbow does not have the "light" property, just it's name? The Heavy/light crossbow need two hands so cannot be dual wielded?
Correct. The only crossbow that can be dual wielded this way is the hand crossbow, because the others are two-handed and don't have the Light property.
Assuming I get sharpshooter at Lvl4, now I can use my crossbows up to long range at no penalty. I get 2 attacks at Lvl5. Based on the crossbow feat that I get at level 6.
I can shoot one cross bow twice (I can load in between attacks?) and during my bonus action I shoot a 2nd crossbow (use my dex bonus for damage).
Yes, if you have Extra Attack and Crossbow Expert, and you're holding two hand crossbows, you can make two attacks with one crossbow as part of the Attack action, and then a third attack with the other crossbow as a bonus action. Or, the two attacks in the Attack action can be one with each weapon. The only thing you can't do is make all three attacks with the same one. (If your two crossbows are identical, it doesn't really matter, but potentially you might end up acquiring a magical hand crossbow that has some special effect that distinguishes it from others.)
You add your Dexterity modifier to the damage of all of these attacks.
I would suggest you are better off taking crossbow expert at level 4, so when you hit 5, you can make use of your extra attack. Otherwise, you’re leaving a major class feature on the table for a level.
I would suggest you are better off taking crossbow expert at level 4, so when you hit 5, you can make use of your extra attack. Otherwise, you’re leaving a major class feature on the table for a level.
That is a great point, however, my thought to wait until level 6 is based on a few more reasons. Let me know if my thought/logic is sound when looking at the total points.
This is an archer type of fighter. So does not want to get into a melee combat. The hand crossbow has a 30 range (ignoring long range at the moment). At 30', the next round is melee combat. By getting sharpshooter, short range gets kicked out to to 120'. cover is bypassed so that increases the % chance of actually hitting. And successful hitting = more damage per turn. Without the sharpshooter feat, cover and long range greatly decrease my chances to hit.
If I wait until 6 level, the down side is leaving a class feature delayed for a level. The upside of waiting for two levels, shooting has a better chance of hitting, thus more damage, and I am not sure of the math, but the net is one shot having a better chance to hit vice 2 shots at a worse chance.
Waiting until 6th level also keeps the chance for actual melee fighting smaller and waiting on 2 feats gives me a +1 higher armor due to the +2 abilities. That can assist if I do get into a melee.
I see, and that’s really a reasonable take. Ignoring cover is really useful when shooting into melee. Ideally, you’re mobile enough that you can move to a better angle and shoot around your allies, but that’s not always an option. But, personally, I’d rather take the second shot. IMO, the point of the archery fighting style giving you that +2 to hit is to basically cancel out the -2 from 1/2 cover. So you should still be as reliable as the melee character you are shooting around.
I do have two questions, why a hand crossbow? Those are usually for rogues who can stack some sneak attack damage on. If you’re a fighter, why not pull out a heavy crossbow and get that bigger damage die and be able to be much further away so you don’t have to worry about enemies running up on you?
The other is, why worry about melee? You’re still a fighter. Studded leather and a high DEX will still give you a good AC, and you’ll still have some nice high hit points. If an enemy gets close, that why you have that rapier. You’ll still get your extra attack, and you’ll still have all the base fighter class and subclass powers. You’re not stuck in melee with them, they’re stuck in melee with you. (And with xbow expert, you don’t even need that rapier anymore, actually.)
Definitely, flavor and character concept are perfectly valid reasons for both of those choices, and I’d never try to say you’re having fun wrong. Just trying to think through the options.
Use a finesse weapon (why I suggested rapier) and low str doesn’t matter, as you’ll use your dex.
Though those are more points in favor xbe over sharpshooter. You can duel wield sooner (getting an attack and BA attack at level 4, then 2 attacks and a BA attack at 5), and if you find yourself in melee, you can continue using your hand crossbows without penalty.
Holding off on xbe, you are just using a single hand crossbow until level 6 when you can start to ignore the loading property. Either way, you might want to start with the heavy xbow until you do get xbe, otherwise, you’re just kind of nerfing your damage and getting nothing in return.
I know it is not quite what you are going for, but I have a current Rogue (Swashbuckler)/Figher (Battlemaster) build that I am using. It has Crossbow Expert and their weapon of choice has been the Heavy Crossbow. Although they have a hand crossbow, they have yet to use it.
That character uses the Hvy Crossbow whether in melee or ranged (thanks to Crossbow Expert), switching to a melee weapon ONLY when it is the only way to gain sneak attack (but I can almost always get it using the crossbow). However if in melee with no allies nearby (extremely rare), then I might use the swashbuckler ability to get sneak with a melee weapon - but that's extremely rare for that character not to have a shot on someone that would grant sneak attack with the hvy crossbow.
Also, if you are looking at a ranged character, the Hvy Crossbow would be a better choice. Granted it can't be dual wielded, so you don't get 1 extra chance to crit, its range and damage more than makes up for that.
Even if you stick with the hand crossbow, I would go Crossbow Expert first, then Sharpshooter later.
Thank you both. So this seems to be a decent time to do some comparison. Hopefully I do this correctly
No feats, Archery fighting style 16 Dex All are +7 to hit, assume all are hits.
Hand (two weapon) 2d6+2 damage and still have a BA? Min/max damage = 4/14
Light 1d8+2 but can't use 2 attacks? Min damage = 3/10
Heavy 1d10+2 but can't use 2 attacks? Min damage = 3/12
Xbow feat
Hand (two weapon) 3d6+6 damage? Min/max damage = 9/24
Light 2d8+4 Min damage = 6/20
Heavy 2d10+4 Min damage = 6/24
So if the target is no more then 30' the 2 weapon hand bows can deal more damage then the heavy, correct?
But the 30' range is the sticking point.
The 2nd sticky point is beyond 30' I have to assume there is cover. I have no idea how fold cover into that variable. But my chance of hitting goes way down.
Sharpshooter assumes a hit, xbow feat assumes more arrows down range. That is what I can't figure out mathematically.
Your numbers are a little off, I think because you are not consistently applying your Dexterity modifier properly. If you have a Dexterity score of 16, your modifier is +3, not +2, and if you have Extra Attack you apply it to both attacks. Therefore, without the Crossbow Expert feat you have:
Two Hand Crossbow attacks (one as a bonus action without the modifier) is a total of 2d6+3 damage, which is 8-15 damage with an average of 10
One Light Crossbow attack is a total of 1d8+3 damage, which is 4-11 damage with an average of 7.5
One Heavy Crossbow attack is a total of 1d10+3 damage, which is 4-13 damage with an average of 8.5
And with the Crossbow Expert feat you have:
Three Hand Crossbow attacks (one as a bonus action without the modifier) is a total of 3d6+6 damage, which is 9-24 damage with an average of 16.5
Two Light Crossbow attacks is a total of 2d8+6 damage, which is 8-22 damage with an average of 15
Two Heavy Crossbow attacks is a total of 2d10+6 damage, which is 8-26 damage with an average of 17
You're correct that two Hand Crossbow attacks deals slightly more damage on average than a single Heavy Crossbow attack. However, three Hand Crossbow attacks are slightly less than two Heavy Crossbow attacks.
Thank you so much. That really helps and I so appreciate the correction and the math.
Based on the corrected numbers, my initial guess was correct. It is a matter of which nets you more damage at the end. Have a better chance to hit or when hit dealing more damage.
If I use the heavy xbow, then yes it is worthwhile to take the Xbow feat 1st. However, if my primary is the hand xbow, then sharpshooter is better.
Another non listed factor is the weapon mastery. Hand crossbow has vex. That will almost guarantees that all shots do damage. Range penalties and cover penalties will matter.
thankyou Harm for this debate, but sharpshooter 1st (removes penalties) and vex i think will do more damage in a full combat round then xbow feat (with penalties) and the push feature.
How are you getting two hand crossbow attacks without the feat, though? You need a free hand if a weapon has the ammunition property. Xbe lets you load it even if you don’t have a free hand. Maybe your DM lets you walk around with them loaded, so that helps for round 1, but beyond that, you are stuck.
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I am looking into creating an archer and came across this question which is why it is here then the more generic rules thread.
If I get this at level 4 (I won't but trying to understand), then I have one attack with one hand, and a second attack as a bonus action using my dex bonus with the other hand. When do I actually load so I can shoot in the next turn? Immediately after firing?
I assume there are 3 crossbows I can potentially duel wield. Heavy/light/hand. Based on the light property only one I can actually use is the one handed Hand crossbow, because the light crossbow does not have the "light" property, just it's name? The Heavy/light crossbow need two hands so cannot be dual wielded?
Assuming I get sharpshooter at Lvl4, now I can use my crossbows up to long range at no penalty. I get 2 attacks at Lvl5. Based on the crossbow feat that I get at level 6.
I can shoot one cross bow twice (I can load in between attacks?) and during my bonus action I shoot a 2nd crossbow (use my dex bonus for damage).
Something seems off, but I am not sure what I am missing.
5e D&D doesn't model loading ammunition into a weapon as a thing you have to actually say that you're doing, so it doesn't really matter. The Loading property just limits how often you can fire a weapon that has it. Crossbow Expert lets you ignore that property for crossbows, making it possible to shoot the same crossbow more than once per turn.
Correct. The only crossbow that can be dual wielded this way is the hand crossbow, because the others are two-handed and don't have the Light property.
Yes, if you have Extra Attack and Crossbow Expert, and you're holding two hand crossbows, you can make two attacks with one crossbow as part of the Attack action, and then a third attack with the other crossbow as a bonus action. Or, the two attacks in the Attack action can be one with each weapon. The only thing you can't do is make all three attacks with the same one. (If your two crossbows are identical, it doesn't really matter, but potentially you might end up acquiring a magical hand crossbow that has some special effect that distinguishes it from others.)
You add your Dexterity modifier to the damage of all of these attacks.
You're not missing anything.
pronouns: he/she/they
I would suggest you are better off taking crossbow expert at level 4, so when you hit 5, you can make use of your extra attack. Otherwise, you’re leaving a major class feature on the table for a level.
That is a great point, however, my thought to wait until level 6 is based on a few more reasons. Let me know if my thought/logic is sound when looking at the total points.
This is an archer type of fighter. So does not want to get into a melee combat. The hand crossbow has a 30 range (ignoring long range at the moment). At 30', the next round is melee combat. By getting sharpshooter, short range gets kicked out to to 120'. cover is bypassed so that increases the % chance of actually hitting. And successful hitting = more damage per turn. Without the sharpshooter feat, cover and long range greatly decrease my chances to hit.
If I wait until 6 level, the down side is leaving a class feature delayed for a level. The upside of waiting for two levels, shooting has a better chance of hitting, thus more damage, and I am not sure of the math, but the net is one shot having a better chance to hit vice 2 shots at a worse chance.
Waiting until 6th level also keeps the chance for actual melee fighting smaller and waiting on 2 feats gives me a +1 higher armor due to the +2 abilities. That can assist if I do get into a melee.
I see, and that’s really a reasonable take. Ignoring cover is really useful when shooting into melee. Ideally, you’re mobile enough that you can move to a better angle and shoot around your allies, but that’s not always an option. But, personally, I’d rather take the second shot. IMO, the point of the archery fighting style giving you that +2 to hit is to basically cancel out the -2 from 1/2 cover. So you should still be as reliable as the melee character you are shooting around.
I do have two questions, why a hand crossbow? Those are usually for rogues who can stack some sneak attack damage on. If you’re a fighter, why not pull out a heavy crossbow and get that bigger damage die and be able to be much further away so you don’t have to worry about enemies running up on you?
The other is, why worry about melee? You’re still a fighter. Studded leather and a high DEX will still give you a good AC, and you’ll still have some nice high hit points. If an enemy gets close, that why you have that rapier. You’ll still get your extra attack, and you’ll still have all the base fighter class and subclass powers. You’re not stuck in melee with them, they’re stuck in melee with you. (And with xbow expert, you don’t even need that rapier anymore, actually.)
Definitely, flavor and character concept are perfectly valid reasons for both of those choices, and I’d never try to say you’re having fun wrong. Just trying to think through the options.
Hand crossbow per the discussion above is the only weapon for dual wielding.
Not wanting to melee as the lack of a shield for ac and lack of strength bonus.
Ahh, dual wielding. Forgot that part.
Use a finesse weapon (why I suggested rapier) and low str doesn’t matter, as you’ll use your dex.
Though those are more points in favor xbe over sharpshooter. You can duel wield sooner (getting an attack and BA attack at level 4, then 2 attacks and a BA attack at 5), and if you find yourself in melee, you can continue using your hand crossbows without penalty.
Holding off on xbe, you are just using a single hand crossbow until level 6 when you can start to ignore the loading property.
Either way, you might want to start with the heavy xbow until you do get xbe, otherwise, you’re just kind of nerfing your damage and getting nothing in return.
I know it is not quite what you are going for, but I have a current Rogue (Swashbuckler)/Figher (Battlemaster) build that I am using. It has Crossbow Expert and their weapon of choice has been the Heavy Crossbow. Although they have a hand crossbow, they have yet to use it.
That character uses the Hvy Crossbow whether in melee or ranged (thanks to Crossbow Expert), switching to a melee weapon ONLY when it is the only way to gain sneak attack (but I can almost always get it using the crossbow). However if in melee with no allies nearby (extremely rare), then I might use the swashbuckler ability to get sneak with a melee weapon - but that's extremely rare for that character not to have a shot on someone that would grant sneak attack with the hvy crossbow.
Also, if you are looking at a ranged character, the Hvy Crossbow would be a better choice. Granted it can't be dual wielded, so you don't get 1 extra chance to crit, its range and damage more than makes up for that.
Even if you stick with the hand crossbow, I would go Crossbow Expert first, then Sharpshooter later.
Something to consider.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Thank you both. So this seems to be a decent time to do some comparison. Hopefully I do this correctly
No feats, Archery fighting style 16 Dex All are +7 to hit, assume all are hits.
Hand (two weapon) 2d6+2 damage and still have a BA? Min/max damage = 4/14
Light 1d8+2 but can't use 2 attacks? Min damage = 3/10
Heavy 1d10+2 but can't use 2 attacks? Min damage = 3/12
Xbow feat
Hand (two weapon) 3d6+6 damage? Min/max damage = 9/24
Light 2d8+4 Min damage = 6/20
Heavy 2d10+4 Min damage = 6/24
So if the target is no more then 30' the 2 weapon hand bows can deal more damage then the heavy, correct?
But the 30' range is the sticking point.
The 2nd sticky point is beyond 30' I have to assume there is cover. I have no idea how fold cover into that variable. But my chance of hitting goes way down.
Sharpshooter assumes a hit, xbow feat assumes more arrows down range. That is what I can't figure out mathematically.
Your numbers are a little off, I think because you are not consistently applying your Dexterity modifier properly. If you have a Dexterity score of 16, your modifier is +3, not +2, and if you have Extra Attack you apply it to both attacks. Therefore, without the Crossbow Expert feat you have:
And with the Crossbow Expert feat you have:
You're correct that two Hand Crossbow attacks deals slightly more damage on average than a single Heavy Crossbow attack. However, three Hand Crossbow attacks are slightly less than two Heavy Crossbow attacks.
pronouns: he/she/they
Thank you so much. That really helps and I so appreciate the correction and the math.
Based on the corrected numbers, my initial guess was correct. It is a matter of which nets you more damage at the end. Have a better chance to hit or when hit dealing more damage.
If I use the heavy xbow, then yes it is worthwhile to take the Xbow feat 1st. However, if my primary is the hand xbow, then sharpshooter is better.
Another non listed factor is the weapon mastery. Hand crossbow has vex. That will almost guarantees that all shots do damage. Range penalties and cover penalties will matter.
thankyou Harm for this debate, but sharpshooter 1st (removes penalties) and vex i think will do more damage in a full combat round then xbow feat (with penalties) and the push feature.
How are you getting two hand crossbow attacks without the feat, though? You need a free hand if a weapon has the ammunition property. Xbe lets you load it even if you don’t have a free hand.
Maybe your DM lets you walk around with them loaded, so that helps for round 1, but beyond that, you are stuck.