You’re arguing from a homebrew perspective. My point is based on official published modules and organized play. Organized play makes sure every character has a magical weapon at 5 level. Specifically to avoid the issues I brough up earlier.
No one wants to go to an organized play event and be ineffective, especially as some are the ‘pay to play’. In my experience by paying the store for table space.
I am not talking about any homebrew, everything I said was RAW. Monks all get magic unarmed strikes, all Paladins get smite, all Rangers can get magic damage through spells. All of them, as well as some fighter and Barbarian subclasses can do magic damage.
Also the official adventures I have played do not all ensure every character a magic weapon by level 5. As I noted multiple times my 14th level bladesinger did not have a magic weapon at when I finished descent into Avernus, my level 7 Fighter-Rogue in SKT did not have a magic weapon, my 7th level Fighter-Rogue in Candlekeep mysteries did not have a magic item. Now maybe they were there and we missed them, but they did not find one and those are all official campaigns.
You’re arguing from a homebrew perspective. My point is based on official published modules and organized play. Organized play makes sure every character has a magical weapon at 5 level. Specifically to avoid the issues I brough up earlier.
No one wants to go to an organized play event and be ineffective, especially as some are the ‘pay to play’. In my experience by paying the store for table space.
I am not talking about any homebrew, everything I said was RAW. Monks all get magic unarmed strikes, all Paladins get smite, all Rangers can get magic damage through spells. All of them, as well as some fighter and Barbarian subclasses can do magic damage.
Also the official adventures I have played do not all ensure every character a magic weapon by level 5. As I noted multiple times my 14th level bladesinger did not have a magic weapon at when I finished descent into Avernus, my level 7 Fighter-Rogue in SKT did not have a magic weapon, my 7th level Fighter-Rogue in Candlekeep mysteries did not have a magic item. Now maybe they were there and we missed them, but they did not find one and those are all official campaigns.
He said "Organized Play," by which I assume he means Adventurer's League. AL rules state that a character can have a magical item from a given, restricted list. These rules are pretty official considering they're on the actual DnD website. So, if WotC sees fit to tell players that by their official rules they can have a magic weapon by lvl 5, it stands to reason this could be used as a baseline of sorts.
While you could make the argument that rangers and paladins have access to magic via spells or class features, that's not what they'll be doing majority of the time. They're still mostly martials who rely on attack rolls with their weapons, so, a magic weapon early on is important.
That said, I think a vorpal sword could be given out at lvl 11, or somewhere near early tier 3. Most campaigns end around that time, so why not let the fighter enjoy something nice? They could be used to take out regular mooks, while still keeping the main boss encounter challenging for one reason or another, either being too big or the head just isn't needed. Nothing a bit of DM handwaving can't solve to balance out!
While you could make the argument that rangers and paladins have access to magic via spells or class features, that's not what they'll be doing majority of the time. They're still mostly martials who rely on attack rolls with their weapons, so, a magic weapon early on is important.
A Paladin at level 6+ can get a lot of magic damage on smites from weapon attacks, without casting any spells.
Many Ranger spells can buff weapon attacks and abilities like Dreadful Strike do other damage types on attacks and Shilaleagh and magic stone through the Drudic Warrior fighting style also gives magic damage on attacks without using any spell slots at all.
So either of these classes can make attacks with non-magic weapons and do damage to enemies who are immune to non-magic weapons, but I would also argue that since Tasha's Rangers can be built to be more of a Gish than a true martial. The last Fey Wanderer I played usually did things other than attacking. She was good at attacking and did it occasionally, but she used a spell or wand more often. FWIW she did have a magic dagger and non-magic short bow and she did use them, just not every turn.
While you could make the argument that rangers and paladins have access to magic via spells or class features, that's not what they'll be doing majority of the time. They're still mostly martials who rely on attack rolls with their weapons, so, a magic weapon early on is important.
A Paladin at level 6+ can get a lot of magic damage on smites from weapon attacks, without casting any spells.
Many Ranger spells can buff weapon attacks and abilities like Dreadful Strike do other damage types on attacks and Shilaleagh and magic stone through the Drudic Warrior fighting style also gives magic damage on attacks without using any spell slots at all.
So either of these classes can make attacks with non-magic weapons and do damage to enemies who are immune to non-magic weapons, but I would also argue that since Tasha's Rangers can be built to be more of a Gish than a true martial. The last Fey Wanderer I played usually did things other than attacking. She was good at attacking and did it occasionally, but she used a spell or wand more often. FWIW she did have a magic dagger and non-magic short bow and she did use them, just not every turn.
That is a straw man argument.
Go back and actually read my post. I mention Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues not Paladins or Rangers which are 1/2 spell casters.
Yes I do mean Adventure's League official rules and guidelines that give/make available to all characters a +1 weapon of their choice at 5th level. No need to find them or pick them up from a module.
Yes I do mean Adventure's League official rules and guidelines that give/make available to all characters a +1 weapon of their choice at 5th level. No need to find them or pick them up from a module.
Adventurer's League is it's own thing and not really relevant to when a DM should hand out a magic item, as in AL it's not really up to the DM at all.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
You’re arguing from a homebrew perspective. My point is based on official published modules and organized play. Organized play makes sure every character has a magical weapon at 5 level. Specifically to avoid the issues I brough up earlier.
No one wants to go to an organized play event and be ineffective, especially as some are the ‘pay to play’. In my experience by paying the store for table space.
I am not talking about any homebrew, everything I said was RAW. Monks all get magic unarmed strikes, all Paladins get smite, all Rangers can get magic damage through spells. All of them, as well as some fighter and Barbarian subclasses can do magic damage.
Also the official adventures I have played do not all ensure every character a magic weapon by level 5. As I noted multiple times my 14th level bladesinger did not have a magic weapon at when I finished descent into Avernus, my level 7 Fighter-Rogue in SKT did not have a magic weapon, my 7th level Fighter-Rogue in Candlekeep mysteries did not have a magic item. Now maybe they were there and we missed them, but they did not find one and those are all official campaigns.
He said "Organized Play," by which I assume he means Adventurer's League. AL rules state that a character can have a magical item from a given, restricted list. These rules are pretty official considering they're on the actual DnD website. So, if WotC sees fit to tell players that by their official rules they can have a magic weapon by lvl 5, it stands to reason this could be used as a baseline of sorts.
While you could make the argument that rangers and paladins have access to magic via spells or class features, that's not what they'll be doing majority of the time. They're still mostly martials who rely on attack rolls with their weapons, so, a magic weapon early on is important.
That said, I think a vorpal sword could be given out at lvl 11, or somewhere near early tier 3. Most campaigns end around that time, so why not let the fighter enjoy something nice? They could be used to take out regular mooks, while still keeping the main boss encounter challenging for one reason or another, either being too big or the head just isn't needed. Nothing a bit of DM handwaving can't solve to balance out!
I agree, if the campaign is ending in the 12-14 range. If the campaign is planning on going to 20, I might push the level 11 back a little bit, to level 14/15 or so. Just because a Vorpal blade is likely their last weapon of the game. You want the player to have time to enjoy the new toy, but not enough time for them to feel like they want a new one...especially when there isn't an upgrade from it!
You’re arguing from a homebrew perspective. My point is based on official published modules and organized play. Organized play makes sure every character has a magical weapon at 5 level. Specifically to avoid the issues I brough up earlier.
No one wants to go to an organized play event and be ineffective, especially as some are the ‘pay to play’. In my experience by paying the store for table space.
I am not talking about any homebrew, everything I said was RAW. Monks all get magic unarmed strikes, all Paladins get smite, all Rangers can get magic damage through spells. All of them, as well as some fighter and Barbarian subclasses can do magic damage.
Also the official adventures I have played do not all ensure every character a magic weapon by level 5. As I noted multiple times my 14th level bladesinger did not have a magic weapon at when I finished descent into Avernus, my level 7 Fighter-Rogue in SKT did not have a magic weapon, my 7th level Fighter-Rogue in Candlekeep mysteries did not have a magic item. Now maybe they were there and we missed them, but they did not find one and those are all official campaigns.
He said "Organized Play," by which I assume he means Adventurer's League. AL rules state that a character can have a magical item from a given, restricted list. These rules are pretty official considering they're on the actual DnD website. So, if WotC sees fit to tell players that by their official rules they can have a magic weapon by lvl 5, it stands to reason this could be used as a baseline of sorts.
While you could make the argument that rangers and paladins have access to magic via spells or class features, that's not what they'll be doing majority of the time. They're still mostly martials who rely on attack rolls with their weapons, so, a magic weapon early on is important.
That said, I think a vorpal sword could be given out at lvl 11, or somewhere near early tier 3. Most campaigns end around that time, so why not let the fighter enjoy something nice? They could be used to take out regular mooks, while still keeping the main boss encounter challenging for one reason or another, either being too big or the head just isn't needed. Nothing a bit of DM handwaving can't solve to balance out!
I agree, if the campaign is ending in the 12-14 range. If the campaign is planning on going to 20, I might push the level 11 back a little bit, to level 14/15 or so. Just because a Vorpal blade is likely their last weapon of the game. You want the player to have time to enjoy the new toy, but not enough time for them to feel like they want a new one...especially when there isn't an upgrade from it!
What do you mean there's no upgrade? Of course there is! I'd go hog wild for my martial players at lvl 20. Slap on a 1d6 or 2 of elemental damage on that baby a la frost brand. Watch that baby cut. Watch out! It's fairly tame considering what casters get access to at those levels.
Yes I do mean Adventure's League official rules and guidelines that give/make available to all characters a +1 weapon of their choice at 5th level. No need to find them or pick them up from a module.
Adventurer's League is it's own thing and not really relevant to when a DM should hand out a magic item, as in AL it's not really up to the DM at all.
Adventure League may be it's own thing, but it is official rules on the D&D website. It also offers some, if not the only, guidelines for handing out certain tiers of magic items. Especially considering what is in the DMG Magic Item Rarity section. Which is basically summed up as, 5th level for Rare items heavily flavored by 'up to the DM'.
I made the mistake of making a character with thousands of gold. My players stole this gold allowing them to but a vorpal longsword.
Several problems imo...
Characters should have difficulty in both carrying huge amounts of gold, because of the weight and disposing of stolen loot imo. 10,000 gp weighs something like 200 lbs. Which maybe a high STR character can carry? But few others will be able to carry that much.
Also, something like a vorpal weapon shouldn't be for sale, at any price. I might allow players to be able to purchase a +1 weapon or armor at much higher than DMG prices and only in the largest cities, but nothing beyond that. One of the quickest ways to break your game is to allow players to have vast amounts of gold and be able to purchase anything they want. Certain powerful magic items should only be acquired by adventuring and defeating main questline foes. Powerful magic items are the reward for downing that lich or dragon or fiend, not just bought off the bargain rack at Wal-Mart! ;)
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I am not talking about any homebrew, everything I said was RAW. Monks all get magic unarmed strikes, all Paladins get smite, all Rangers can get magic damage through spells. All of them, as well as some fighter and Barbarian subclasses can do magic damage.
Also the official adventures I have played do not all ensure every character a magic weapon by level 5. As I noted multiple times my 14th level bladesinger did not have a magic weapon at when I finished descent into Avernus, my level 7 Fighter-Rogue in SKT did not have a magic weapon, my 7th level Fighter-Rogue in Candlekeep mysteries did not have a magic item. Now maybe they were there and we missed them, but they did not find one and those are all official campaigns.
He said "Organized Play," by which I assume he means Adventurer's League. AL rules state that a character can have a magical item from a given, restricted list. These rules are pretty official considering they're on the actual DnD website. So, if WotC sees fit to tell players that by their official rules they can have a magic weapon by lvl 5, it stands to reason this could be used as a baseline of sorts.
While you could make the argument that rangers and paladins have access to magic via spells or class features, that's not what they'll be doing majority of the time. They're still mostly martials who rely on attack rolls with their weapons, so, a magic weapon early on is important.
That said, I think a vorpal sword could be given out at lvl 11, or somewhere near early tier 3. Most campaigns end around that time, so why not let the fighter enjoy something nice? They could be used to take out regular mooks, while still keeping the main boss encounter challenging for one reason or another, either being too big or the head just isn't needed. Nothing a bit of DM handwaving can't solve to balance out!
A Paladin at level 6+ can get a lot of magic damage on smites from weapon attacks, without casting any spells.
Many Ranger spells can buff weapon attacks and abilities like Dreadful Strike do other damage types on attacks and Shilaleagh and magic stone through the Drudic Warrior fighting style also gives magic damage on attacks without using any spell slots at all.
So either of these classes can make attacks with non-magic weapons and do damage to enemies who are immune to non-magic weapons, but I would also argue that since Tasha's Rangers can be built to be more of a Gish than a true martial. The last Fey Wanderer I played usually did things other than attacking. She was good at attacking and did it occasionally, but she used a spell or wand more often. FWIW she did have a magic dagger and non-magic short bow and she did use them, just not every turn.
That is a straw man argument.
Go back and actually read my post. I mention Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues not Paladins or Rangers which are 1/2 spell casters.
Yes I do mean Adventure's League official rules and guidelines that give/make available to all characters a +1 weapon of their choice at 5th level. No need to find them or pick them up from a module.
Adventurer's League is it's own thing and not really relevant to when a DM should hand out a magic item, as in AL it's not really up to the DM at all.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I agree, if the campaign is ending in the 12-14 range. If the campaign is planning on going to 20, I might push the level 11 back a little bit, to level 14/15 or so. Just because a Vorpal blade is likely their last weapon of the game. You want the player to have time to enjoy the new toy, but not enough time for them to feel like they want a new one...especially when there isn't an upgrade from it!
What do you mean there's no upgrade? Of course there is! I'd go hog wild for my martial players at lvl 20. Slap on a 1d6 or 2 of elemental damage on that baby a la frost brand. Watch that baby cut. Watch out! It's fairly tame considering what casters get access to at those levels.
Adventure League may be it's own thing, but it is official rules on the D&D website. It also offers some, if not the only, guidelines for handing out certain tiers of magic items. Especially considering what is in the DMG Magic Item Rarity section. Which is basically summed up as, 5th level for Rare items heavily flavored by 'up to the DM'.
Level one is the earliest you can give a player a Vorpal Swors
I made the mistake of making a character with thousands of gold. My players stole this gold allowing them to but a vorpal longsword.
Several problems imo...
Characters should have difficulty in both carrying huge amounts of gold, because of the weight and disposing of stolen loot imo. 10,000 gp weighs something like 200 lbs. Which maybe a high STR character can carry? But few others will be able to carry that much.
Also, something like a vorpal weapon shouldn't be for sale, at any price. I might allow players to be able to purchase a +1 weapon or armor at much higher than DMG prices and only in the largest cities, but nothing beyond that. One of the quickest ways to break your game is to allow players to have vast amounts of gold and be able to purchase anything they want. Certain powerful magic items should only be acquired by adventuring and defeating main questline foes. Powerful magic items are the reward for downing that lich or dragon or fiend, not just bought off the bargain rack at Wal-Mart! ;)