I will start my first round of dnd5e soon. I come from pathfinder. For my character i first wanted to go for a ranger. But after reading it more, i am pretty unsatisfied with the natural explorer and favored enemy rule.
My DM offered me to play the "revised ranger" version, but since it is not supported on dndbeyond, i did not want to go for that for i wanted to enjoy the nice tool support for 5e.
We are a group with many first timers and for sure not an optimized enviroment. I already wrote my backstory before i started to doubt my ranger pick, and now i want to adapt. What im trying to go for is a versitile combatant who can hit im close combat and with the longbow (or potentially crossbow later on).
Here is my build path. I´d love some feedback, in case i have some errors in my plan.
Race: Woodelf. that is basicly set, because it matches with the backstory of a first timer in our group and im not going to screw him over and have him rewrite the background. We run a custom statline: 17-15-13-12-10-8
After racial mods my statline is 10-19-13-16-10-8. I prioritised WIS over CON since i will premarily try to shoot the first levels. We have 2 frontliners in our party of 4 already. So i rated the good rolls on perception and insight higher for offcombat purposes. Class choices:
1st - Fighter1 -> Archery Style 2nd - Fighter2 3rd - Fighter3 -> Battlemaster(Precision attack, Trip Attack, Pushing Attack), Skill Profiency(probably Stealth) 4th - Figher4 -> ASI for for DEX and CON 5th - Fighter5 6th - Fighter6 -> ASI for sharpshooter feat.
At this point i think my basic ranged combat is "online" i think. For my Maneuver choices: - Precision shot to make my sharpshooter shots more reliable - Trip Attack, since CC seems to be useful and the DC of 16 seems to be quite good to me. - Pushing attack. Im not sure if that works as i understand it. I think if i can use that to push an enemy out of the range of my frontliners, it would allow them to take opportunity attacks. We have a rogue who could even trigger his sneak attack since it is not in his turn. Is that correct? Otherwise i guess i would go for "goading attack". I can trigger it on enemys in close combat with my frontline and they would get disadvantage on attacks on my friends. Seems useful to me and targets wisdom save, so i have an optiont o trip attack.
At this point i would making 2 attacks, +10 for d8+5 damage. Or with sharpshooter and precision attack +5+d8 for d8+15.
I would then progress in ranger for my second fighting style 7th - ranger1 8th - ranger2 -> two weapon fighting 9th - ranger3 -> hunter(colossus slayer) 10th - ranger4 -> ASI for dual wielder 11th - ranger5 -> to grab the extra attack aswell. Do they stack with the extra attack from fighter? so im at 3 attacks now?
The ranger multiclass would give me the TWF style. Dual wielder to draw both weapons and get +1AC. Colossus slayer and hunters mark give me additional damage per shot and i can now make use of my bonus actions in combat for ranger spells.
I know that is probably far from optimal and i should have gone variant human for sth like this and im losing out many ASIs for feats. The question is: Is it somewhat viable, or do i try to hard to be melee and ranged so that in the end i suck on both ways?
Looks to me like you know your way around min/maxing and i love rp dedication trumping optimal choices. Let me start with an unnecessary defense of the ranger.
If you're going to hex crawl around or sandbox in your natural terrain, or if the campaign is populated with your favored enemy, these features are broken. The ranger is also a versatile fighter. Take your twf style and the sharpshooter feat. Then use the ranger spells to enhance your archery. No multiclass needed. Also, fighting style aren't most haves to be good at a specific way of fighting. That being said...
You're on point with this build. Le me do my best at answering some of your questions. If background duplicates a skill proficiency pick another skill. No pushing doesn't provoke opportunity attack but it might save a caster. Extra attack doesn't stack your stuck with two attacks until level 11 fighter.
My suggestion is stay with fighter till 8 and get all your feats first. Go only two in ranger, unless you want/need the hunter or pass without trace spell; if you do no more than four levels. Then continue fighter. Hope it helps.
Welcome to 5e, I think you'll find the math much friendlier, and the characters much less customizable.
Battlemaster is a good choice, and gives you a lot to play with, but if you are still looking at options, you might want to look at samurai. All of their abilities apply to a weapon attack, so the bonuses can be used either ranged or melee. It seems you have it figured out, just making sure you know another option.
And I think you might find dual-wielding to be a bit lackluster. Even with the feats, it's just not as powerful as it was in some earlier editions. I guess if you have nothing else to do with your bonus action (besides second wind once every short rest), it better than nothing. Also rangers in general aren't as powerful as they used to be. While a single-class fighter can be a beast. If you're just doing ranger for a little extra damage and the two-weapon style, it might not be worth what you give up.
And 3rdPete was dead on correct in his answers. No opportunity attacks for pushing attack, and no 3rd attack until you hit 11 in fighter.
I looked into the samurai. My take on it was that it would be probably the better DPR choice, but i liked the maneuver options for more playing flexibility.
@Pete: You say the ranger dip is probably not worth for the extra damage. If im correct, with hunters mark and colossus slayer i basicly add a d6 and a d8 to each of my arrows (assuming i shoot targets that are already hurt). It costs me 3 levels, so it delays my third attack by 3 levels. Is there another option to gain more damage with the fighter on my arrows other than sharpshooter feat and superiority dice? I wouldnt know what to pick as fighter to get even close to +d6+d8 damage
For our first session: I figured that it was most useful to open with bow and then switch to 2 weapons and go flanking. Worked quite well and boy was that a starting encounter. 3 pirat dudes with their boss who had 65hit points and 2/3 attacks. Luckily our plan was to attack them right away from hidden position with me and our rogue wich brought us like 20 damage ahead before the fight really started. Still we probably would have wiped if it wasnt for our battle cleric with AC18 and heavy armor master who could tank him 2 rounds.
I really liked 5e so far. Also our first timers found their spot fairly quickly. Obbiously remembering all options is not easy but they did really well. Especially the tool support, that is doing all the calculation is super convienient. A day ago we had our pathfinder campaign goin. My BAB+5 INQ was at +23 to hit one turn with like 7 stacking modifiers. I like the idea to have less different buffs and the "advantage/disadvantage" mechanic.
Glad you’re having fun, it is much simpler. have you thought of a dip into rogue for the sneak attack for some bonus damage? Not to mention an extra skill (with expertise (like stealth)). A second level would give you cunning action: bonus action disengage can do wonders to help you back up and still be an archer without having to switch to melee, and bonus action movement helps you get in better position for your shots. A third would give you another sneak attack die and your subclass, but then we’re back to the three level issue.
And don’t forget hunters Mark is a concentration spell, so there’s no guarantee you won’t take damage and lose it.
In this edition, you know, there is no flanking, per se. it can still be helpful to surround an enemy, but there’s no flanking bonus or anything. Sneak attack is triggered either when a rogue has advantage on the attack, or an ally is adjacent to the target. None of that having to be in the opposite side stuff. So if you have an ally in melee, you get your sneak attack with a bow as long as you’re within 30 feet. There could be partial cover if you don’t have a clear line to the target, but there’s no minus just for firing into melee anymore.
Flanking: Our DM runs with flanking=advantage. I believe that to be an optional rule.
Rogue dip: I will pick stealth at level3 with the battlemaster. Thieves Tools are glorious, i´d probably go for that if we didnt have a rogue already. One of our new P&P players. I don´t want to compete with him in that "role" since he is new and it kinda sucks going into his territory where he is supposed to shine. I was thinking about that in terms of going into it additionally to ranger. But if we are talking 3 level dip, the ranger is better for dpr. Rogue would give me fairly reliable 2d6 extra per turn (level 3). Ranger3 would give mit "fairly reliably" a d6 and a d8 per shot. Obviously i will not shoot damaged targets 100% of the time and i will every now and then lose my concentration. I felt though it would be reasonably reliable being a ranged backliner (for now) with basicly free choice of targets. Also, since i start with more than 5 levels of fighter for the extra attack, one of the 2 ranger buffs would already equal the sneak attack. So with one of them not working, for whatever reason, i´m still on par with rogue. I really like the cunning action. I´m always in favor of more flexibility. In my plan "right now" the disengage plan is: Draw shortsword -> pushing attack -> drop shortsword -> keep on shooting them. Technicly i could also go pushing attack with an unarmed attack (kick), if the DM might think its unreasonably to draw the shortsword and immediatly drop it.Ofcause that can fail due to the save against pushing attack. Cunning action is defenetly more reliable. Is it worth picking the rogue over the ranger though, if we are talking 3 level dip?
You can't using pushing attack with a kick. It says it has to be a weapon attack, and an unarmed strike is not a weapon (there's a bit of a grey area if you're a monk, I think, but I'm not a rules expert by any means).
As far as rogue v. ranger, I don't think it's very clear cut. Either can help you do what you're trying to do as far as stack damage on a hit. Neither will work in every situation, so I guess you can use those first few levels in fighter to see which situation comes up more often. And obviously which subclass you go for will also have an impact. Also don't discount just staying straight fighter (though the level 7 power for battlemaster, outside of getting the extra die, is pretty lackluster). The bonus damage from a multiclass dip is nice, but the extra attacks and ASIs from fighter are pretty great. An extra attack might miss, but it also might crit. And as a ranged attacker, being able to hit targets multiple times can be really useful, especially when you run into an enemy spellcaster who is concentrating on something to make them make multiple saves to maintain their concentration.
Well no I didn't mean that the the damage is not worth it, but rather not neccessary for getting that high dpr feel of a classic switch hitter. Let me ask you what's your level spread right now?
As far as more damage for a fighter other than all those options, there isn't. Without multiclassing, magic weapons or buffing that is it. However, that's the intent. A +7-9 to hit with two to three die worth of damage and/or two attacks is as effective as a character of your role needs to be for 2nd tier math. That's my point.
So, with my own multiclass fighter in mind, I say to you brimbor when/if you get to pc level 11 your expected damage for your role at third tier will depend not on sharp shooter or colossus slayer but rather in your limited spell slots. I'll predict this gaining the 8th level fighter feat or the 2nd level spells from 5th level ranger will not have the same jump in power that a 11th level fighter or a third level ranger. So let me repeat my advice from earlier. 8 level fighter first then 3 in ranger or just single class.
All that said it's a great build that will continue to shine.
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Hi
I will start my first round of dnd5e soon. I come from pathfinder. For my character i first wanted to go for a ranger. But after reading it more, i am pretty unsatisfied with the natural explorer and favored enemy rule.
My DM offered me to play the "revised ranger" version, but since it is not supported on dndbeyond, i did not want to go for that for i wanted to enjoy the nice tool support for 5e.
We are a group with many first timers and for sure not an optimized enviroment. I already wrote my backstory before i started to doubt my ranger pick, and now i want to adapt. What im trying to go for is a versitile combatant who can hit im close combat and with the longbow (or potentially crossbow later on).
Here is my build path. I´d love some feedback, in case i have some errors in my plan.
Race: Woodelf. that is basicly set, because it matches with the backstory of a first timer in our group and im not going to screw him over and have him rewrite the background.
We run a custom statline: 17-15-13-12-10-8
After racial mods my statline is 10-19-13-16-10-8. I prioritised WIS over CON since i will premarily try to shoot the first levels. We have 2 frontliners in our party of 4 already. So i rated the good rolls on perception and insight higher for offcombat purposes.
Class choices:
Background: Faction agent
Skills: Perception+5, Acrobatics+6, Insight+5, Perception+5, Survival+5
1st - Fighter1 -> Archery Style
2nd - Fighter2
3rd - Fighter3 -> Battlemaster(Precision attack, Trip Attack, Pushing Attack), Skill Profiency(probably Stealth)
4th - Figher4 -> ASI for for DEX and CON
5th - Fighter5
6th - Fighter6 -> ASI for sharpshooter feat.
At this point i think my basic ranged combat is "online" i think.
For my Maneuver choices:
- Precision shot to make my sharpshooter shots more reliable
- Trip Attack, since CC seems to be useful and the DC of 16 seems to be quite good to me.
- Pushing attack. Im not sure if that works as i understand it. I think if i can use that to push an enemy out of the range of my frontliners, it would allow them to take opportunity attacks. We have a rogue who could even trigger his sneak attack since it is not in his turn. Is that correct? Otherwise i guess i would go for "goading attack". I can trigger it on enemys in close combat with my frontline and they would get disadvantage on attacks on my friends. Seems useful to me and targets wisdom save, so i have an optiont o trip attack.
At this point i would making 2 attacks, +10 for d8+5 damage. Or with sharpshooter and precision attack +5+d8 for d8+15.
I would then progress in ranger for my second fighting style
7th - ranger1
8th - ranger2 -> two weapon fighting
9th - ranger3 -> hunter(colossus slayer)
10th - ranger4 -> ASI for dual wielder
11th - ranger5 -> to grab the extra attack aswell. Do they stack with the extra attack from fighter? so im at 3 attacks now?
The ranger multiclass would give me the TWF style. Dual wielder to draw both weapons and get +1AC. Colossus slayer and hunters mark give me additional damage per shot and i can now make use of my bonus actions in combat for ranger spells.
I know that is probably far from optimal and i should have gone variant human for sth like this and im losing out many ASIs for feats.
The question is: Is it somewhat viable, or do i try to hard to be melee and ranged so that in the end i suck on both ways?
Looks to me like you know your way around min/maxing and i love rp dedication trumping optimal choices. Let me start with an unnecessary defense of the ranger.
If you're going to hex crawl around or sandbox in your natural terrain, or if the campaign is populated with your favored enemy, these features are broken. The ranger is also a versatile fighter. Take your twf style and the sharpshooter feat. Then use the ranger spells to enhance your archery. No multiclass needed. Also, fighting style aren't most haves to be good at a specific way of fighting. That being said...
You're on point with this build. Le me do my best at answering some of your questions. If background duplicates a skill proficiency pick another skill. No pushing doesn't provoke opportunity attack but it might save a caster. Extra attack doesn't stack your stuck with two attacks until level 11 fighter.
My suggestion is stay with fighter till 8 and get all your feats first. Go only two in ranger, unless you want/need the hunter or pass without trace spell; if you do no more than four levels. Then continue fighter. Hope it helps.
Welcome to 5e, I think you'll find the math much friendlier, and the characters much less customizable.
Battlemaster is a good choice, and gives you a lot to play with, but if you are still looking at options, you might want to look at samurai. All of their abilities apply to a weapon attack, so the bonuses can be used either ranged or melee. It seems you have it figured out, just making sure you know another option.
And I think you might find dual-wielding to be a bit lackluster. Even with the feats, it's just not as powerful as it was in some earlier editions. I guess if you have nothing else to do with your bonus action (besides second wind once every short rest), it better than nothing. Also rangers in general aren't as powerful as they used to be. While a single-class fighter can be a beast. If you're just doing ranger for a little extra damage and the two-weapon style, it might not be worth what you give up.
And 3rdPete was dead on correct in his answers. No opportunity attacks for pushing attack, and no 3rd attack until you hit 11 in fighter.
okay.
I looked into the samurai. My take on it was that it would be probably the better DPR choice, but i liked the maneuver options for more playing flexibility.
@Pete:
You say the ranger dip is probably not worth for the extra damage.
If im correct, with hunters mark and colossus slayer i basicly add a d6 and a d8 to each of my arrows (assuming i shoot targets that are already hurt). It costs me 3 levels, so it delays my third attack by 3 levels.
Is there another option to gain more damage with the fighter on my arrows other than sharpshooter feat and superiority dice?
I wouldnt know what to pick as fighter to get even close to +d6+d8 damage
For our first session:
I figured that it was most useful to open with bow and then switch to 2 weapons and go flanking. Worked quite well and boy was that a starting encounter. 3 pirat dudes with their boss who had 65hit points and 2/3 attacks. Luckily our plan was to attack them right away from hidden position with me and our rogue wich brought us like 20 damage ahead before the fight really started. Still we probably would have wiped if it wasnt for our battle cleric with AC18 and heavy armor master who could tank him 2 rounds.
I really liked 5e so far. Also our first timers found their spot fairly quickly. Obbiously remembering all options is not easy but they did really well. Especially the tool support, that is doing all the calculation is super convienient. A day ago we had our pathfinder campaign goin. My BAB+5 INQ was at +23 to hit one turn with like 7 stacking modifiers. I like the idea to have less different buffs and the "advantage/disadvantage" mechanic.
Glad you’re having fun, it is much simpler.
have you thought of a dip into rogue for the sneak attack for some bonus damage? Not to mention an extra skill (with expertise (like stealth)). A second level would give you cunning action: bonus action disengage can do wonders to help you back up and still be an archer without having to switch to melee, and bonus action movement helps you get in better position for your shots. A third would give you another sneak attack die and your subclass, but then we’re back to the three level issue.
And don’t forget hunters Mark is a concentration spell, so there’s no guarantee you won’t take damage and lose it.
In this edition, you know, there is no flanking, per se. it can still be helpful to surround an enemy, but there’s no flanking bonus or anything. Sneak attack is triggered either when a rogue has advantage on the attack, or an ally is adjacent to the target. None of that having to be in the opposite side stuff. So if you have an ally in melee, you get your sneak attack with a bow as long as you’re within 30 feet. There could be partial cover if you don’t have a clear line to the target, but there’s no minus just for firing into melee anymore.
Though now that I think about it, sneak attack only works once per turn, so it wouldn’t apply to multiple attacks in the same round.
thanks again for the advise :)
Flanking: Our DM runs with flanking=advantage. I believe that to be an optional rule.
Rogue dip:
I will pick stealth at level3 with the battlemaster. Thieves Tools are glorious, i´d probably go for that if we didnt have a rogue already. One of our new P&P players. I don´t want to compete with him in that "role" since he is new and it kinda sucks going into his territory where he is supposed to shine.
I was thinking about that in terms of going into it additionally to ranger. But if we are talking 3 level dip, the ranger is better for dpr. Rogue would give me fairly reliable 2d6 extra per turn (level 3). Ranger3 would give mit "fairly reliably" a d6 and a d8 per shot. Obviously i will not shoot damaged targets 100% of the time and i will every now and then lose my concentration. I felt though it would be reasonably reliable being a ranged backliner (for now) with basicly free choice of targets. Also, since i start with more than 5 levels of fighter for the extra attack, one of the 2 ranger buffs would already equal the sneak attack. So with one of them not working, for whatever reason, i´m still on par with rogue.
I really like the cunning action. I´m always in favor of more flexibility. In my plan "right now" the disengage plan is: Draw shortsword -> pushing attack -> drop shortsword -> keep on shooting them. Technicly i could also go pushing attack with an unarmed attack (kick), if the DM might think its unreasonably to draw the shortsword and immediatly drop it.Ofcause that can fail due to the save against pushing attack. Cunning action is defenetly more reliable. Is it worth picking the rogue over the ranger though, if we are talking 3 level dip?
You can't using pushing attack with a kick. It says it has to be a weapon attack, and an unarmed strike is not a weapon (there's a bit of a grey area if you're a monk, I think, but I'm not a rules expert by any means).
As far as rogue v. ranger, I don't think it's very clear cut. Either can help you do what you're trying to do as far as stack damage on a hit. Neither will work in every situation, so I guess you can use those first few levels in fighter to see which situation comes up more often. And obviously which subclass you go for will also have an impact. Also don't discount just staying straight fighter (though the level 7 power for battlemaster, outside of getting the extra die, is pretty lackluster). The bonus damage from a multiclass dip is nice, but the extra attacks and ASIs from fighter are pretty great. An extra attack might miss, but it also might crit. And as a ranged attacker, being able to hit targets multiple times can be really useful, especially when you run into an enemy spellcaster who is concentrating on something to make them make multiple saves to maintain their concentration.
Well no I didn't mean that the the damage is not worth it, but rather not neccessary for getting that high dpr feel of a classic switch hitter. Let me ask you what's your level spread right now?
As far as more damage for a fighter other than all those options, there isn't. Without multiclassing, magic weapons or buffing that is it. However, that's the intent. A +7-9 to hit with two to three die worth of damage and/or two attacks is as effective as a character of your role needs to be for 2nd tier math. That's my point.
So, with my own multiclass fighter in mind, I say to you brimbor when/if you get to pc level 11 your expected damage for your role at third tier will depend not on sharp shooter or colossus slayer but rather in your limited spell slots. I'll predict this gaining the 8th level fighter feat or the 2nd level spells from 5th level ranger will not have the same jump in power that a 11th level fighter or a third level ranger. So let me repeat my advice from earlier. 8 level fighter first then 3 in ranger or just single class.
All that said it's a great build that will continue to shine.