Still EK 6/barb 2. Went Nova on a boss, poorly- forgot to use reckless attack and PAM bonus attacks. Still did 67 points of damage in a single round (two attacks, one unleash incarnation, two more attacks and an unleash by way of action surge). Moreover, we were on a boat at sea so I threw my echo in the ocean to take attacks. When the mecha-kraken went under the boat, I had my knight jump off the boat, take attacks in the ocean, and then teleport back in the boat, after which point I continued the battle with my knight in the boat and echo in the water.
Oh, and climbing is soooo last season. Why climb when you can send your echo up and swap positions?
In the words of Homer Simpson: “And here I am using my legs like a sucker”.
They cover a good amount of space I will agree but a sharpshooter fighter is better for that anyway as they can kill something up to 600ft away with hardly a penalty thanks to archery style.
Echo is good don't get me wrong but its not overtly powerful compared to the other fighter options.
Stand back and shoot an echo in someone's face, and attack from there. Pick up the Sentinel feat. If the creature tries to walk away from your echo and get to you, hit it with an opportunity attack, dropping its movement speed to 0. It could likely destroy the echo, and then try to get to you. But then it burned at least 1 of its attacks doing so. You can also place your echo someplace hard to get to, like a rooftop or a lookout tower, and then switch places with it. There are so many shenanigans you can pull off with this :)
They cover a good amount of space I will agree but a sharpshooter fighter is better for that anyway as they can kill something up to 600ft away with hardly a penalty thanks to archery style.
Echo is good don't get me wrong but its not overtly powerful compared to the other fighter options.
I've been chewing on this question while I've been playing my EK over the last half-year or so, and the more I play the subclass the more I'm convinced that a) the echo knight is more relatively powerful than the other subclasses (by which I mean it's better than other subclasses at doing the job it's designed to do- obviously it's not more "objectively" powerful- might as well ask how many angels on pinheads, etc.); and b) the more I play it, the more I'm becoming convinced that played properly, the subclass is a gamebreaker.
Let me tell you why I think that:
In a pithy soundbite, I think it may be OP'd in practice not because of what the subclass can do but because of what the subclass eliminates: adventuring logistics/mechanics.
In combat, tanks, strikers, and defenders have a set number of jobs: cause damage to enemies; keep melee enemies occupied; protect the squishies. To do this job, there's a trade off: damage infliction and/or absorbtion in exchange for an anticipated diminution of HP. When a martial class starts running out of HP, they're no longer able to do their job. Now imagine if you never had to spend HP in order to perform those jobs- you'd literally be unstoppable. By continually deploying the echo on the front lines and keeping your knight safe, you're not spending HP to attack enemies, occupy enemies, or protect the squishies. Granted, the echo doesn't confer invulnerability- with only one HP, they're easy to dissipate, there's missile weapons and magic, and, I dunno, pick anything. Not perfect- but there's a continuum at play. Let's say in any given combat the echo takes one out of every ten attacks meant for the knight. That wouldn't be overpowered, imo. But what about 25% of attacks? 50%? 75%? More? You've effectively expanded your combat HP far beyond the number on your sheet, possibly doubling or tripling it. If you can get the enemies to hit your echo instead of you, you become more efficient at the job of tank/striker/defender than most if not all the other martial subclasses. The Echo Knight reduces, either substantially or significantly, the cost/benefit logistics inherent to the tank/striker/defender role.
But that's not all- there's also non-combat, specifically, the ability to switch places with the echo is insane insofar as it lets the knight ignore logistical issues that everyone else is stuck with.
Chasms are no longer a problem. Trapped corridors are no longer a problem. Climbing is no longer a problem. So long as there's a keyhole you can see through, locked doors are no longer a problem. Being stuck behind bars is no longer a problem. Difficult terrain is no longer a problem. Issues of "how the shit do I get from here to there" are either eased or eliminated entirely by 60' of effective, unlimited teleportation (on turn one, summon the echo, send it out to 30'; on turn two, move the echo its full 30' movement and switch). It's the equivalent of eliminating the logistical issue of needing to have enough money to buy something because you have a bottomless piggy bank. Sure, other classes have misty step and shadowstep- but those are limited by spell slots and natural conditions. The echo teleportation ability is unconditional, unlimited- and overpowered.
To sum up, having spent time playing an Echo Knight, in my opinion, the ability to perform the job of tank/striker/defender without needing to spend HP along with the ability to just skip past physical obstacles makes this an overpowered, gamebreaking class, designed either intentionally or unintentionally to make DM's tear their hair out. And to be clear, there are lots of frustrating classes and subclasses, especially as they progress to higher levels. In this case, I mean overpowered from inception, at level 3, something I don't think any other class (MAAAAAYBE Peace Cleric?) can match.
Keen to hear the opinions of others who've played a Knight.
They cover a good amount of space I will agree but a sharpshooter fighter is better for that anyway as they can kill something up to 600ft away with hardly a penalty thanks to archery style.
Echo is good don't get me wrong but its not overtly powerful compared to the other fighter options.
I've been chewing on this question while I've been playing my EK over the last half-year or so, and the more I play the subclass the more I'm convinced that a) the echo knight is more relatively powerful than the other subclasses (by which I mean it's better than other subclasses at doing the job it's designed to do- obviously it's not more "objectively" powerful- might as well ask how many angels on pinheads, etc.); and b) the more I play it, the more I'm becoming convinced that played properly, the subclass is a gamebreaker.
Let me tell you why I think that:
In a pithy soundbite, I think it may be OP'd in practice not because of what the subclass can do but because of what the subclass eliminates: adventuring logistics/mechanics.
In combat, tanks, strikers, and defenders have a set number of jobs: cause damage to enemies; keep melee enemies occupied; protect the squishies. To do this job, there's a trade off: damage infliction and/or absorbtion in exchange for an anticipated diminution of HP. When a martial class starts running out of HP, they're no longer able to do their job. Now imagine if you never had to spend HP in order to perform those jobs- you'd literally be unstoppable. By continually deploying the echo on the front lines and keeping your knight safe, you're not spending HP to attack enemies, occupy enemies, or protect the squishies. Granted, the echo doesn't confer invulnerability- with only one HP, they're easy to dissipate, there's missile weapons and magic, and, I dunno, pick anything. Not perfect- but there's a continuum at play. Let's say in any given combat the echo takes one out of every ten attacks meant for the knight. That wouldn't be overpowered, imo. But what about 25% of attacks? 50%? 75%? More? You've effectively expanded your combat HP far beyond the number on your sheet, possibly doubling or tripling it. If you can get the enemies to hit your echo instead of you, you become more efficient at the job of tank/striker/defender than most if not all the other martial subclasses. The Echo Knight reduces, either substantially or significantly, the cost/benefit logistics inherent to the tank/striker/defender role.
But that's not all- there's also non-combat, specifically, the ability to switch places with the echo is insane insofar as it lets the knight ignore logistical issues that everyone else is stuck with.
Chasms are no longer a problem. Trapped corridors are no longer a problem. Climbing is no longer a problem. So long as there's a keyhole you can see through, locked doors are no longer a problem. Being stuck behind bars is no longer a problem. Difficult terrain is no longer a problem. Issues of "how the shit do I get from here to there" are either eased or eliminated entirely by 60' of effective, unlimited teleportation (on turn one, summon the echo, send it out to 30'; on turn two, move the echo its full 30' movement and switch). It's the equivalent of eliminating the logistical issue of needing to have enough money to buy something because you have a bottomless piggy bank. Sure, other classes have misty step and shadowstep- but those are limited by spell slots and natural conditions. The echo teleportation ability is unconditional, unlimited- and overpowered.
To sum up, having spent time playing an Echo Knight, in my opinion, the ability to perform the job of tank/striker/defender without needing to spend HP along with the ability to just skip past physical obstacles makes this an overpowered, gamebreaking class, designed either intentionally or unintentionally to make DM's tear their hair out. And to be clear, there are lots of frustrating classes and subclasses, especially as they progress to higher levels. In this case, I mean overpowered from inception, at level 3, something I don't think any other class (MAAAAAYBE Peace Cleric?) can match.
Keen to hear the opinions of others who've played a Knight.
I think it's fair to say they can do those jobs well.... But at any one I could build a better fighter for the job.
It's ok to have versatility in the build and I think they are quite good.... But it's not game breaking is more that it steps on design space of other builds.
That's a fair criticism but it's not one that I think breaks the game but could impact the enjoyment of the other players.
I don’t know how to respond to “I could build a better fighter” and an unsubstantiated assertion that it’s just not gamebreaking.
I’ve played the class for the last five, six months, put some thought into the matter, and provided explanations for my opinions, based on my experience. I’m happy to debate the details but I don’t know how to respond to a flat statement. If you want to have this discussion (and I’m not being *****y when I say this), have you spent time playing the subclass? Do you have a reason or argument to back up your assertion?
Also, it occurs that honestly, the PAM v sentinel feat discussion is silly. Either one’ll do the trick.
I don’t know how to respond to “I could build a better fighter” and an unsubstantiated assertion that it’s just not gamebreaking.
I’ve played the class for the last five, six months, put some thought into the matter, and provided explanations for my opinions, based on my experience. I’m happy to debate the details but I don’t know how to respond to a flat statement. If you want to have this discussion (and I’m not being *****y when I say this), have you spent time playing the subclass? Do you have a reason or argument to back up your assertion?
Also, it occurs that honestly, the PAM v sentinel feat discussion is silly. Either one’ll do the trick.
I have spent time DMing the subclass and 3 or 4 other fighter subclasses.
I am saying that I know a better tank build (Cavalier or Eldritch Knight)
I know a better damage/striker build (CBE+SS Battlemaster or Samurai for Nova damage)
I know a better controller (Battlemaster with Pushing, Menacing, Trip attack)
The thing about Echo Knight is that they can do all these jobs fairly well....just not better than the examples.
Its the Monk syndrome....you are good at a lot of different things but not great at any one of them.
I don’t know how to respond to “I could build a better fighter” and an unsubstantiated assertion that it’s just not gamebreaking.
I’ve played the class for the last five, six months, put some thought into the matter, and provided explanations for my opinions, based on my experience. I’m happy to debate the details but I don’t know how to respond to a flat statement. If you want to have this discussion (and I’m not being *****y when I say this), have you spent time playing the subclass? Do you have a reason or argument to back up your assertion?
Also, it occurs that honestly, the PAM v sentinel feat discussion is silly. Either one’ll do the trick.
I have spent time DMing the subclass and 3 or 4 other fighter subclasses.
I am saying that I know a better tank build (Cavalier or Eldritch Knight)
I know a better damage/striker build (CBE+SS Battlemaster or Samurai for Nova damage)
I know a better controller (Battlemaster with Pushing, Menacing, Trip attack)
The thing about Echo Knight is that they can do all these jobs fairly well....just not better than the examples.
Its the Monk syndrome....you are good at a lot of different things but not great at any one of them.
I would argue the Echo Knight is a terrible tank if you play it tactically, which is really how you get the most out of it.
I would say its biggest strengths are utility (best utility fighter by a wide margin), defense if you pick up sentinel and play it tactically, mobility (obviously), and between its insane mobility and Unleash Incarnation the offense is very respectable.
I don’t know how to respond to “I could build a better fighter” and an unsubstantiated assertion that it’s just not gamebreaking.
I’ve played the class for the last five, six months, put some thought into the matter, and provided explanations for my opinions, based on my experience. I’m happy to debate the details but I don’t know how to respond to a flat statement. If you want to have this discussion (and I’m not being *****y when I say this), have you spent time playing the subclass? Do you have a reason or argument to back up your assertion?
Also, it occurs that honestly, the PAM v sentinel feat discussion is silly. Either one’ll do the trick.
I have spent time DMing the subclass and 3 or 4 other fighter subclasses.
I am saying that I know a better tank build (Cavalier or Eldritch Knight)
I know a better damage/striker build (CBE+SS Battlemaster or Samurai for Nova damage)
I know a better controller (Battlemaster with Pushing, Menacing, Trip attack)
The thing about Echo Knight is that they can do all these jobs fairly well....just not better than the examples.
Its the Monk syndrome....you are good at a lot of different things but not great at any one of them.
I would argue the Echo Knight is a terrible tank if you play it tactically, which is really how you get the most out of it.
I would say its biggest strengths are utility (best utility fighter by a wide margin), defense if you pick up sentinel and play it tactically, mobility (obviously), and between its insane mobility and Unleash Incarnation the offense is very respectable.
Mobility would be the one I do agree it's best at... That's fair.
Utility is pretty good for that alone. Otherwise they don't get cantrips or spells so I say it's a toss up there for them and Eldritch Knight. Find Familiar works pretty good as a replacement for their 7th level ability but it's not as good.
This discussion kind of leads me to the next obvious question. I do agree that Echo Knights are strong, and they do minimize some aspects of play. So, to shift this question to a DM perspective, how do you game master for or manage an Echo Knight in your party? Are there any tools or recommendations for handling Echo Knight players?
I think Echo Knights are strong mechanically, but they do fill a fantasy role for a lot of players. I personally love their maneuverability and resource free play style. And to me they fill that chess master mindset I sometime enjoy. So as a game master, any suggestions on how to allow Echo Knights, but still enable those players or balance the table? (I my have a Echo Knight soon in my game as well.)
Moreover, we were on a boat at sea so I threw my echo in the ocean to take attacks. When the mecha-kraken went under the boat, I had my knight jump off the boat, take attacks in the ocean, and then teleport back in the boat, after which point I continued the battle with my knight in the boat and echo in the water.
On a separate topic, this brings up a good question: how do Echo's work in water? Did your DM indicate if the Echo displaced water, or if it otherwise affected it's movement (I think by RAW it doesn't)? I assume making attacks underwater with an Echo would also impact weapons strikes per the underwater rules, but did your DM put any limitations on it?
Mobility would be the one I do agree it's best at... That's fair.
Utility is pretty good for that alone. Otherwise they don't get cantrips or spells so I say it's a toss up there for them and Eldritch Knight. Find Familiar works pretty good as a replacement for their 7th level ability but it's not as good.
Overall they are top 3 fighter subclass
That's fair about cantrips for the Eldritch Knight. I just think what the Echo can do is more impactful. Being able to teleport yourself up-down-whichever at will is insanely powerful. And that avatar - "You guys don't know where to go? Hang on let me send my avatar 1000 feet in the air and look around."
I guess the utility is just in mobility, getting in and out of situations (can't you just echo your way out of jail?), and scouting. It's really good in those areas and it's impactful. But fair point, the Eldritch Knight can cover more categories with things like mold earth and mending.
This discussion kind of leads me to the next obvious question. I do agree that Echo Knights are strong, and they do minimize some aspects of play. So, to shift this question to a DM perspective, how do you game master for or manage an Echo Knight in your party? Are there any tools or recommendations for handling Echo Knight players?
I think Echo Knights are strong mechanically, but they do fill a fantasy role for a lot of players. I personally love their maneuverability and resource free play style. And to me they fill that chess master mindset I sometime enjoy. So as a game master, any suggestions on how to allow Echo Knights, but still enable those players or balance the table? (I my have a Echo Knight soon in my game as well.)
For combat if the Echo player is savvy, picks up sentinel, and things are getting out of hand, add some spells and ranged attacks into the mix.
It should be pretty easy to control how much impact the Echo Avatar has on the game, so it should not break anything. It's easy to kill and the player can't just recreate it 800 feet away. Let the player shine and get some benefit from it, but don't let him get the entire map of the building they're going to raid.
You can only create the echo in a space you can see, so if you put him in jail, maybe let him teleport out of the bars into a another locked and enclosed area, from which he now needs more conventional means of escape, e.g. ambush the guards, look for a key, etc.
Mobility would be the one I do agree it's best at... That's fair.
Utility is pretty good for that alone. Otherwise they don't get cantrips or spells so I say it's a toss up there for them and Eldritch Knight. Find Familiar works pretty good as a replacement for their 7th level ability but it's not as good.
Overall they are top 3 fighter subclass
That's fair about cantrips for the Eldritch Knight. I just think what the Echo can do is more impactful. Being able to teleport yourself up-down-whichever at will is insanely powerful. And that avatar - "You guys don't know where to go? Hang on let me send my avatar 1000 feet in the air and look around."
I guess the utility is just in mobility, getting in and out of situations (can't you just echo your way out of jail?), and scouting. It's really good in those areas and it's impactful. But fair point, the Eldritch Knight can cover more categories with things like mold earth and mending.
The thing about Echo Knight is that they can do all these jobs fairly well....just not better than the examples.
Its the Monk syndrome....you are good at a lot of different things but not great at any one of them.
Now this I can argue!
No accounting for your player’s playing style- but you’ve missed the main thrust of my argument. The EK’s dominant feature isn’t mobility, though it’s astounding both in an out of combat, and it’s this feature, I’ll argue that OP’s it as a striker, tank, and defender more than any other subclass I can think of, including long death monks and bear totem barbarians.
It’s all about the hit points. Echo Knights, played to suit the style I’m proposing, is OP’d because unlike every other martial class, by deploying the echo in a forward position you get all the attack benefits of your fighter with no melee damage risk to the knight.
Simply, if casting classes run on spell slots, martial classes run on hit points. If your Cavalier tank, striker Eldritch Knight, or controller BM run out of hit points, they can’t do their job- and require a caster to spend a turn healing the fighter and not throwing something dangerous at the enemy. By the knight staying out of danger and constantly deploying the echo, they’re a constant threat on the battlefield- and every attack on the echo, hit or miss, is one less attack on you and your party.
Yes, the knight is susceptible to magic, yes, also missile attacks, but it’s a wash- they’re a danger to front liners in any event.
The EK is OP’d because properly deployed, the echo is like Dr. Strange’s “DORMAMMU, I’VE COME TO BARGAIN”, ad infinitum- or at least until combat is over.
This discussion kind of leads me to the next obvious question. I do agree that Echo Knights are strong, and they do minimize some aspects of play. So, to shift this question to a DM perspective, how do you game master for or manage an Echo Knight in your party? Are there any tools or recommendations for handling Echo Knight players?
Heh. I’ll respectfully suggest that if a DM has to ask “so how do you stop this thing?” or, as SeanJP is suggesting, think up tricky ways to blunt the ability - that’s some fairly strong evidence that the subclass just might be a wee bit OP’d. A player ought to be able to play their character as deftly as possible without crashing the game; if it does, in my books, that’s OP.
As for the echo in water, we agreed it didn’t have to breathe and could just “hover” in the water as it does in air- but he reasonably cut the movement in half.
The thing about Echo Knight is that they can do all these jobs fairly well....just not better than the examples.
Its the Monk syndrome....you are good at a lot of different things but not great at any one of them.
Now this I can argue!
No accounting for your player’s playing style- but you’ve missed the main thrust of my argument. The EK’s dominant feature isn’t mobility, though it’s astounding both in an out of combat, and it’s this feature, I’ll argue that OP’s it as a striker, tank, and defender more than any other subclass I can think of, including long death monks and bear totem barbarians.
It’s all about the hit points. Echo Knights, played to suit the style I’m proposing, is OP’d because unlike every other martial class, by deploying the echo in a forward position you get all the attack benefits of your fighter with no melee damage risk to the knight.
Simply, if casting classes run on spell slots, martial classes run on hit points. If your Cavalier tank, striker Eldritch Knight, or controller BM run out of hit points, they can’t do their job- and require a caster to spend a turn healing the fighter and not throwing something dangerous at the enemy. By the knight staying out of danger and constantly deploying the echo, they’re a constant threat on the battlefield- and every attack on the echo, hit or miss, is one less attack on you and your party.
Yes, the knight is susceptible to magic, yes, also missile attacks, but it’s a wash- they’re a danger to front liners in any event.
The EK is OP’d because properly deployed, the echo is like Dr. Strange’s “DORMAMMU, I’VE COME TO BARGAIN”, ad infinitum- or at least until combat is over.
I'm curious why you think it's a good tank. It has no abilities to force or coerce enemies to target only you, and your avatar is a one-shot kill, with no incentive to keep enemies hanging around them.
This discussion kind of leads me to the next obvious question. I do agree that Echo Knights are strong, and they do minimize some aspects of play. So, to shift this question to a DM perspective, how do you game master for or manage an Echo Knight in your party? Are there any tools or recommendations for handling Echo Knight players?
Heh. I’ll respectfully suggest that if a DM has to ask “so how do you stop this thing?” or, as SeanJP is suggesting, think up tricky ways to blunt the ability - that’s some fairly strong evidence that the subclass just might be a wee bit OP’d. A player ought to be able to play their character as deftly as possible without crashing the game; if it does, in my books, that’s OP.
As for the echo in water, we agreed it didn’t have to breathe and could just “hover” in the water as it does in air- but he reasonably cut the movement in half.
I don't really see it that way. It's normal to cater enemies to the abilities of your players (for better or worse), and all of my suggestions were perfectly normal things you encounter in D&D combat. Spellcasters, ranged attacks. I mean, if you had a part with a some some 20AC fighters and paladins, you can but your behind they'll end up making some wisdom saves. That doesn't make plate armor and a shield OP.
I'm curious why you think it's a good tank. It has no abilities to force or coerce enemies to target only you, and your avatar is a one-shot kill, with no incentive to keep enemies hanging around them.
I guess you’re technically right. With a decent AC and 5’ OA’s available, I’d call the echo tank-analogous.
Let’s say the echo takes one or two attacks before it gets dispelled- that’s filling the role of a tank which gets resummoned the next turn. Trick is, it’s a temporary tank that must be dealt with each round, every time. The nightmare enemy scenario involves ignoring the echo and just plowing past it- at which point the knight moves the echo 30’ towards the enemies’ back lines, the knight changes places and goes off to murder the enemy squishies.
Intelligent enemies can’t afford to ignore the one HP echo. It’s just too dangerous.
But you may be right that tank isn’t the best descriptor. Let’s split it down the middle and call the EK “tank-adjacent”.
I'm curious why you think it's a good tank. It has no abilities to force or coerce enemies to target only you, and your avatar is a one-shot kill, with no incentive to keep enemies hanging around them.
I guess you’re technically right. With a decent AC and 5’ OA’s available, I’d call the echo tank-analogous.
Let’s say the echo takes one or two attacks before it gets dispelled- that’s filling the role of a tank which gets resummoned the next turn. Trick is, it’s a temporary tank that must be dealt with each round, every time. The nightmare enemy scenario involves ignoring the echo and just plowing past it- at which point the knight moves the echo 30’ towards the enemies’ back lines, the knight changes places and goes off to murder the enemy squishies.
Intelligent enemies can’t afford to ignore the one HP echo. It’s just too dangerous.
But you may be right that tank isn’t the best descriptor. Let’s split it down the middle and call the EK “tank-adjacent”.
They do bait attacks from the party, so that's actually a good point.
This discussion kind of leads me to the next obvious question. I do agree that Echo Knights are strong, and they do minimize some aspects of play. So, to shift this question to a DM perspective, how do you game master for or manage an Echo Knight in your party? Are there any tools or recommendations for handling Echo Knight players?
Heh. I’ll respectfully suggest that if a DM has to ask “so how do you stop this thing?” or, as SeanJP is suggesting, think up tricky ways to blunt the ability - that’s some fairly strong evidence that the subclass just might be a wee bit OP’d. A player ought to be able to play their character as deftly as possible without crashing the game; if it does, in my books, that’s OP.
As for the echo in water, we agreed it didn’t have to breathe and could just “hover” in the water as it does in air- but he reasonably cut the movement in half.
I don't really see it that way. It's normal to cater enemies to the abilities of your players (for better or worse), and all of my suggestions were perfectly normal things you encounter in D&D combat. Spellcasters, ranged attacks. I mean, if you had a part with a some some 20AC fighters and paladins, you can but your behind they'll end up making some wisdom saves. That doesn't make plate armor and a shield OP.
Yeah, it's always good to take your party's abilities into account.
Sometimes it's fun to throw them a bone and let them feel cool. Maybe I'll say throw out a large group of weak enemies now and then so the sorcerer can have fun with fireball. Let the barbarian feel awesome taking half damage from a giant's attacks that would slaughter most of the rest of the party etc.
But on the flip side, it's also good to keep the party on their toes and challenge them. Take their usual tactics and throw a curve ball at them to make them adapt and think on their feet. And feel like badasses when they come out of said sticky situation in one piece. You shouldn't make every encounter tailored to undermining the party's strengths IMO but it is good to keep them from getting too complacent with their tactics.
Even OP things can generally, with care, be allowed to stay useful but not game breaking by keeping the party's strengths and weaknesses in mind when designing encounters.
Ongoing reports:
Still EK 6/barb 2. Went Nova on a boss, poorly- forgot to use reckless attack and PAM bonus attacks. Still did 67 points of damage in a single round (two attacks, one unleash incarnation, two more attacks and an unleash by way of action surge). Moreover, we were on a boat at sea so I threw my echo in the ocean to take attacks. When the mecha-kraken went under the boat, I had my knight jump off the boat, take attacks in the ocean, and then teleport back in the boat, after which point I continued the battle with my knight in the boat and echo in the water.
Oh, and climbing is soooo last season. Why climb when you can send your echo up and swap positions?
In the words of Homer Simpson: “And here I am using my legs like a sucker”.
Stand back and shoot an echo in someone's face, and attack from there. Pick up the Sentinel feat. If the creature tries to walk away from your echo and get to you, hit it with an opportunity attack, dropping its movement speed to 0. It could likely destroy the echo, and then try to get to you. But then it burned at least 1 of its attacks doing so. You can also place your echo someplace hard to get to, like a rooftop or a lookout tower, and then switch places with it. There are so many shenanigans you can pull off with this :)
I've been chewing on this question while I've been playing my EK over the last half-year or so, and the more I play the subclass the more I'm convinced that a) the echo knight is more relatively powerful than the other subclasses (by which I mean it's better than other subclasses at doing the job it's designed to do- obviously it's not more "objectively" powerful- might as well ask how many angels on pinheads, etc.); and b) the more I play it, the more I'm becoming convinced that played properly, the subclass is a gamebreaker.
Let me tell you why I think that:
In a pithy soundbite, I think it may be OP'd in practice not because of what the subclass can do but because of what the subclass eliminates: adventuring logistics/mechanics.
In combat, tanks, strikers, and defenders have a set number of jobs: cause damage to enemies; keep melee enemies occupied; protect the squishies. To do this job, there's a trade off: damage infliction and/or absorbtion in exchange for an anticipated diminution of HP. When a martial class starts running out of HP, they're no longer able to do their job. Now imagine if you never had to spend HP in order to perform those jobs- you'd literally be unstoppable. By continually deploying the echo on the front lines and keeping your knight safe, you're not spending HP to attack enemies, occupy enemies, or protect the squishies. Granted, the echo doesn't confer invulnerability- with only one HP, they're easy to dissipate, there's missile weapons and magic, and, I dunno, pick anything. Not perfect- but there's a continuum at play. Let's say in any given combat the echo takes one out of every ten attacks meant for the knight. That wouldn't be overpowered, imo. But what about 25% of attacks? 50%? 75%? More? You've effectively expanded your combat HP far beyond the number on your sheet, possibly doubling or tripling it. If you can get the enemies to hit your echo instead of you, you become more efficient at the job of tank/striker/defender than most if not all the other martial subclasses. The Echo Knight reduces, either substantially or significantly, the cost/benefit logistics inherent to the tank/striker/defender role.
But that's not all- there's also non-combat, specifically, the ability to switch places with the echo is insane insofar as it lets the knight ignore logistical issues that everyone else is stuck with.
Chasms are no longer a problem. Trapped corridors are no longer a problem. Climbing is no longer a problem. So long as there's a keyhole you can see through, locked doors are no longer a problem. Being stuck behind bars is no longer a problem. Difficult terrain is no longer a problem. Issues of "how the shit do I get from here to there" are either eased or eliminated entirely by 60' of effective, unlimited teleportation (on turn one, summon the echo, send it out to 30'; on turn two, move the echo its full 30' movement and switch). It's the equivalent of eliminating the logistical issue of needing to have enough money to buy something because you have a bottomless piggy bank. Sure, other classes have misty step and shadowstep- but those are limited by spell slots and natural conditions. The echo teleportation ability is unconditional, unlimited- and overpowered.
To sum up, having spent time playing an Echo Knight, in my opinion, the ability to perform the job of tank/striker/defender without needing to spend HP along with the ability to just skip past physical obstacles makes this an overpowered, gamebreaking class, designed either intentionally or unintentionally to make DM's tear their hair out. And to be clear, there are lots of frustrating classes and subclasses, especially as they progress to higher levels. In this case, I mean overpowered from inception, at level 3, something I don't think any other class (MAAAAAYBE Peace Cleric?) can match.
Keen to hear the opinions of others who've played a Knight.
I think it's fair to say they can do those jobs well.... But at any one I could build a better fighter for the job.
It's ok to have versatility in the build and I think they are quite good.... But it's not game breaking is more that it steps on design space of other builds.
That's a fair criticism but it's not one that I think breaks the game but could impact the enjoyment of the other players.
I don’t know how to respond to “I could build a better fighter” and an unsubstantiated assertion that it’s just not gamebreaking.
I’ve played the class for the last five, six months, put some thought into the matter, and provided explanations for my opinions, based on my experience. I’m happy to debate the details but I don’t know how to respond to a flat statement. If you want to have this discussion (and I’m not being *****y when I say this), have you spent time playing the subclass? Do you have a reason or argument to back up your assertion?
Also, it occurs that honestly, the PAM v sentinel feat discussion is silly. Either one’ll do the trick.
I have spent time DMing the subclass and 3 or 4 other fighter subclasses.
I am saying that I know a better tank build (Cavalier or Eldritch Knight)
I know a better damage/striker build (CBE+SS Battlemaster or Samurai for Nova damage)
I know a better controller (Battlemaster with Pushing, Menacing, Trip attack)
The thing about Echo Knight is that they can do all these jobs fairly well....just not better than the examples.
Its the Monk syndrome....you are good at a lot of different things but not great at any one of them.
I would argue the Echo Knight is a terrible tank if you play it tactically, which is really how you get the most out of it.
I would say its biggest strengths are utility (best utility fighter by a wide margin), defense if you pick up sentinel and play it tactically, mobility (obviously), and between its insane mobility and Unleash Incarnation the offense is very respectable.
Mobility would be the one I do agree it's best at... That's fair.
Utility is pretty good for that alone. Otherwise they don't get cantrips or spells so I say it's a toss up there for them and Eldritch Knight. Find Familiar works pretty good as a replacement for their 7th level ability but it's not as good.
Overall they are top 3 fighter subclass
This discussion kind of leads me to the next obvious question. I do agree that Echo Knights are strong, and they do minimize some aspects of play. So, to shift this question to a DM perspective, how do you game master for or manage an Echo Knight in your party? Are there any tools or recommendations for handling Echo Knight players?
I think Echo Knights are strong mechanically, but they do fill a fantasy role for a lot of players. I personally love their maneuverability and resource free play style. And to me they fill that chess master mindset I sometime enjoy. So as a game master, any suggestions on how to allow Echo Knights, but still enable those players or balance the table? (I my have a Echo Knight soon in my game as well.)
On a separate topic, this brings up a good question: how do Echo's work in water? Did your DM indicate if the Echo displaced water, or if it otherwise affected it's movement (I think by RAW it doesn't)? I assume making attacks underwater with an Echo would also impact weapons strikes per the underwater rules, but did your DM put any limitations on it?
That's fair about cantrips for the Eldritch Knight. I just think what the Echo can do is more impactful. Being able to teleport yourself up-down-whichever at will is insanely powerful. And that avatar - "You guys don't know where to go? Hang on let me send my avatar 1000 feet in the air and look around."
I guess the utility is just in mobility, getting in and out of situations (can't you just echo your way out of jail?), and scouting. It's really good in those areas and it's impactful. But fair point, the Eldritch Knight can cover more categories with things like mold earth and mending.
For combat if the Echo player is savvy, picks up sentinel, and things are getting out of hand, add some spells and ranged attacks into the mix.
It should be pretty easy to control how much impact the Echo Avatar has on the game, so it should not break anything. It's easy to kill and the player can't just recreate it 800 feet away. Let the player shine and get some benefit from it, but don't let him get the entire map of the building they're going to raid.
You can only create the echo in a space you can see, so if you put him in jail, maybe let him teleport out of the bars into a another locked and enclosed area, from which he now needs more conventional means of escape, e.g. ambush the guards, look for a key, etc.
Very fair.... Great utility for sure
Now this I can argue!
No accounting for your player’s playing style- but you’ve missed the main thrust of my argument. The EK’s dominant feature isn’t mobility, though it’s astounding both in an out of combat, and it’s this feature, I’ll argue that OP’s it as a striker, tank, and defender more than any other subclass I can think of, including long death monks and bear totem barbarians.
It’s all about the hit points. Echo Knights, played to suit the style I’m proposing, is OP’d because unlike every other martial class, by deploying the echo in a forward position you get all the attack benefits of your fighter with no melee damage risk to the knight.
Simply, if casting classes run on spell slots, martial classes run on hit points. If your Cavalier tank, striker Eldritch Knight, or controller BM run out of hit points, they can’t do their job- and require a caster to spend a turn healing the fighter and not throwing something dangerous at the enemy. By the knight staying out of danger and constantly deploying the echo, they’re a constant threat on the battlefield- and every attack on the echo, hit or miss, is one less attack on you and your party.
Yes, the knight is susceptible to magic, yes, also missile attacks, but it’s a wash- they’re a danger to front liners in any event.
The EK is OP’d because properly deployed, the echo is like Dr. Strange’s “DORMAMMU, I’VE COME TO BARGAIN”, ad infinitum- or at least until combat is over.
Heh. I’ll respectfully suggest that if a DM has to ask “so how do you stop this thing?” or, as SeanJP is suggesting, think up tricky ways to blunt the ability - that’s some fairly strong evidence that the subclass just might be a wee bit OP’d. A player ought to be able to play their character as deftly as possible without crashing the game; if it does, in my books, that’s OP.
As for the echo in water, we agreed it didn’t have to breathe and could just “hover” in the water as it does in air- but he reasonably cut the movement in half.
I'm curious why you think it's a good tank. It has no abilities to force or coerce enemies to target only you, and your avatar is a one-shot kill, with no incentive to keep enemies hanging around them.
I don't really see it that way. It's normal to cater enemies to the abilities of your players (for better or worse), and all of my suggestions were perfectly normal things you encounter in D&D combat. Spellcasters, ranged attacks. I mean, if you had a part with a some some 20AC fighters and paladins, you can but your behind they'll end up making some wisdom saves. That doesn't make plate armor and a shield OP.
I guess you’re technically right. With a decent AC and 5’ OA’s available, I’d call the echo tank-analogous.
Let’s say the echo takes one or two attacks before it gets dispelled- that’s filling the role of a tank which gets resummoned the next turn. Trick is, it’s a temporary tank that must be dealt with each round, every time. The nightmare enemy scenario involves ignoring the echo and just plowing past it- at which point the knight moves the echo 30’ towards the enemies’ back lines, the knight changes places and goes off to murder the enemy squishies.
Intelligent enemies can’t afford to ignore the one HP echo. It’s just too dangerous.
But you may be right that tank isn’t the best descriptor. Let’s split it down the middle and call the EK “tank-adjacent”.
They do bait attacks from the party, so that's actually a good point.
Yeah, it's always good to take your party's abilities into account.
Sometimes it's fun to throw them a bone and let them feel cool. Maybe I'll say throw out a large group of weak enemies now and then so the sorcerer can have fun with fireball. Let the barbarian feel awesome taking half damage from a giant's attacks that would slaughter most of the rest of the party etc.
But on the flip side, it's also good to keep the party on their toes and challenge them. Take their usual tactics and throw a curve ball at them to make them adapt and think on their feet. And feel like badasses when they come out of said sticky situation in one piece. You shouldn't make every encounter tailored to undermining the party's strengths IMO but it is good to keep them from getting too complacent with their tactics.
Even OP things can generally, with care, be allowed to stay useful but not game breaking by keeping the party's strengths and weaknesses in mind when designing encounters.