Oh, there's no confusion about whether or not the echo can be forcibly moved by others. It's an intangible image. If it were tangible, it would say so.
It does say it's tangible, right where it says it occupies its space. By definition, anything which occupies its space is tangible.
No, it doesn't. A guardian of faith occupies its space, but it also doesn't explicitly say it's tangible. An illusory dragon both explicitly occupies its space and is tangible. There's a difference.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
If the creature is pushed or pulled the 5 ft?
I know not so in normal aoo, but I thought the wording suggested just a movement not a movement under it's own will.
Unless otherwise stated, "moves" refers to a creature actually using its own speed to move somewhere. Pushes and pulls don't count. Teleportation does not count. Something like Dissonant Whispers would count.
Hello all. For anyone who still follows this thread, I apologize for being inactive for so long. Though I created the original FAQ, I haven't been able to update it with any frequency. That said, I still love Echo Knights, and this FAQ seems to have gotten a fair amount of use. Thus I'm open to updating it again, but would like to ask for your assistance, should you be interested.
I'm sure there have been numerous new questions since my last update that aren't currently in the FAQ. If anyone is willing to help collect and format some of those questions and answers, I'll happily add them to the main page/post. Obviously I've been following the format of "Q:" for the questions, and "A:" for the answer. I've tried to keep answers as close to RAW as possible. If there isn't an official source for the answer, or if it is contentious or debatable topic (ie 'can you stand on an echo?'), I try to list the options and defer to DM. For simplicity, I also use “Knight” to refer to the main character, and “Echo” to refer to the manifested echo.
If you'd like to reply this message with any new Q's and A's you'd like add, please feel free and I'll try to add them within a week or two. Likewise, if you have other feedback for the FAQ, please let me know. Thank you.
If you'd like to reply this message with any new Q's and A's you'd like add, please feel free and I'll try to add them within a week or two. Likewise, if you have other feedback for the FAQ, please let me know. Thank you.
Yes, I have a question. Here are some effects with the same text as or similar text to the Echo has for being moved:
Mage Hand specifies that the hand floats (it is described as a floating hand). So far as I know, everyone accepts that a Mage Hand floats in space where you left it.
I can't link to Psi Warrior's text as I don't own a copy of Tasha's on here, but I can paste it from my pdf if required. Suffice to say that you can use an ability it has called Telekinetic Movement to move a rock 30 feet up, and then as soon as the effect ends (which is immediate, as it's instantaneous), the rock falls back down. Note that Psi Warrior explicitly states that vertical movement is ok. In particular, Telekinetic Movement can be used to move an Echo 30 feet.
Telekinesis lets you move something, and then the thing stays in place, held by the spell, until you "let go", whereupon the thing falls. Note that Telekinesis works on the Echo if the Echo weights 1,000 pounds or less; I am well aware the Echo's weight is simply unknown.
Flaming Sphere is worded curiously: it says you can just move it 30 feet, but also then explicitly tells you it can be directed over barriers up to 5 feet tall and "jumped" over "pits". So far as I know, Flaming Sphere is commonly interpreted to fall.
The FAQ (obviously correctly) specifies that the Echo can be moved in any direction, as its rules simply let you move it, without any caveats. However, if I understand the FAQ correctly, it claims that the Echo stays where the Knight leaves it. If the Echo is simply a magically summoned object, on what basis is it immune to the falling rules all other objects are subject to? I can't find any rules text stopping it from falling down right after you move it up, just like a rock that's been moved up using Telekinetic Movement, or the Telekinesis spell if the caster immediately drops concentration.
That question again: why doesn't the Echo fall?
Separately, I've found an incorrect entry in the FAQ, I think:
(Updated) Q: Is an Echo affected by difficult terrain? A: No, Echoes don't have a speed, so difficult terrain doesn't affect them. (thanks @LeviRocks)
These are the actual rules for difficult terrain:
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. (PHB 190)
There is no requirement something have a speed to be affected by difficult terrain, only movement. This comes up all the time - for example, when using the Telekinesis spell above to move a creature or object through a hostile creature's space. Since the Echo has no rules for being incorporeal and definitely does have rules for occupying its space, RAW, when the Knight moves it, rough terrain (including the spaces of hostile creatures) should cost twice as much movement, per the rule I just quoted.
This is also wrong, I think:
(Updated - 4/28)Q: Can allies pass through an Echo’s space? A: No, because it occupies a space, and isn't considered an ally or creature. This would be like trying to run through a wall. (thanks @LeviRocks)
While the Echo is exactly like a wall, it is also exactly like a chair. It does not occupy "a" space in the sense of a combat grid, it occupies its space, i.e. its own volume, and since the Echo is an exact "image" of the Knight, this either means the Echo is of unknowable volume or, and I think this is clearly intended, exactly the same dimensions as the Knight, which means it interacts with movement like a statue, not like a wall. Furthermore, as discussed already, Echos have no known weight value. If they weigh 0 pounds, then, like any 0 pound object, they can be pushed out of the way. Even if they weigh more than this, this simply means they are an object with weight - like a statue sitting on the ground, not like a wall built into the ground. Echos are objects, but they aren't terrain.
The rules allowing something to occupy a combat grid space larger than its own space/volume are specific to creatures and do not apply to objects. As an example of the distinction, a Bugbear could not only enter the combat grid space of a Halfling Knight's Echo, it could then sit on the Echo like it would a stool. It could also kick the echo out of the square like it would a soccer ball - the echo has no special rules distinguishing it from a soccer ball, aside from the need for the GM to rule on its weight (and potentially volume). In fact, since it also has no special rules distinguishing it from a bowl of soup, the bugbear could pick up the echo and wield it as an improvised weapon, just like it could the Knight's corpse.
I don't think it's right that an echo can be pushed or otherwise forcible moved. It's an image, an illusion. It's only an object because it's not a creature. If you use silent image to create the illusion of a brick wall or adult red dragon that illusion is still an object. But it's an intangible object and cannot be physically interacted with. If you tried to touch it, there would be no resistance and you would pass right through it.
Occupying one's space is not the same as having any tangible properties. The spell guardian of faith also creates something (an object) that occupies its space. So does the spell illusory dragon, but that particular spell also explicitly states the illusion is tangible.
Separately, I've found an incorrect entry in the FAQ, I think:
(Updated) Q: Is an Echo affected by difficult terrain? A: No, Echoes don't have a speed, so difficult terrain doesn't affect them. (thanks @LeviRocks)
These are the actual rules for difficult terrain:
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. (PHB 190)
There is no requirement something have a speed to be affected by difficult terrain, only movement. This comes up all the time - for example, when using the Telekinesis spell above to move a creature or object through a hostile creature's space. Since the Echo has no rules for being incorporeal and definitely does have rules for occupying its space, RAW, when the Knight moves it, rough terrain (including the spaces of hostile creatures) should cost twice as much movement, per the rule I just quoted.
Thanks for the feedback and questions @quindraco. I'll partially be relying on folks in this forum to debate the correct answers. But regarding difficult terrain, I believe there was a tweet or other clarify by Jeremy Crawford or Sage Advice that stated that Echo's don't have a movement speed of their own. Difficult terrain applies to "movement". Moving an Echo is a "mental command" on the Knight's turn, and not thing the Echo does on it's own. I imagine this is much like moving a spiritual weapon or bigby's hand, which I believe are not impacted by terrain or related effects. However, if there is strong disagreement with this, I can list both options in the FAQ, but I do think it was previously debated.
But... this leads to the next questions. Q: Is an Echo tangible? I've seen a lot of debate on this. It does hover/fly and RAW says it is an image. However it has 1 hit point, which implies physical things can damage it. And it 'occupies its space', which I assume also means that enemy creatures can't pass through it's space. I'm unsure if the wording "its space" can be debated here, as being the space the form occupies, or the 5'x5' square the Echo is in. This leads to lots of questions however, such as if you can hang from an echo, stand on it, push it? Can it act like an immovable rod? Can allies pass through it? If it is tangible, can it carry you if you hold onto it? Can it pass through walls? I'm open to ideas on the best way to present this in the FAQ.
You can probably guess by my previous post on the subject, but I do not believe the echo is tangible. Lots of things, including creatures capable of incorporeal movement such as ghosts, have hit points and occupy their own space. And hit points have always been an abstraction. I think the 1 hit point is a necessary mechanic; representing that any direct damage will disperse the image.
However you wish to describe this occupying space, be it some force effect or just the sheer wow factor of, "Oh, my gods, there's two of them," the echo should not be interpreted as being tangible. It simply lacks the qualifying text that illusory dragon includes in its description. Absent that text, I would say it's up to DM interpretation and would not argue against it. But because that qualifier does exist, and because the echo lacks the language, it should not be tangible.
Fair points. How would you explain that an Echo occupies a space? Can allies move through the space? Can enemies? Can you stand on top of the space? And is it immovable, can it keep another object from entering the space?
I get that it is simply a mechanic. And I personally lean more towards the image/illusion paradigm. But I do wonder how to explain the occupying space in that case, and the extent to which it can be abused. Are there analogous spells?
for example, if it is an illusion, can you just disbelieve and walk through it?
"(Updated) Q: Can an Echo be used to perform a grapple or shove attack? A: Maybe, there is still some debate over if and how grappling and shoving might work. Per the PHB, grapple and shove are "special melee attacks" included in the Attack action. Manifest Echo states, "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space." Unfortunately, the rules for when a creature tries to break free of a grapple, how it is maintained, and how movement while would work while grappled with the echo are not clear. (thanks @LeviRocks)"
I would think the Echo could be used for either a grapple or shove, but only the shove would have any lasting effect. Shove using the Echo Knight's abilities from the Echo's position would be considered an attack and could knock it prone. The Echo Knight could also theoretically grapple an opponent and succeed, but really only for the duration of the attack, making it useless. The Echo is an object, it can't maintain the grappled condition, beyond the Echo Knight's attack. The Echo Knight goes back to his/her position away from the creature grappled. Once that happens, the grappled condition is removed. The effect removing the condition is the Echo Knight returning to their original position.
Appendix A: Conditions...
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
Fair points. How would you explain that an Echo occupies a space? Can allies move through the space? Can enemies? Can you stand on top of the space? And is it immovable, can it keep another object from entering the space?
I get that it is simply a mechanic. And I personally lean more towards the image/illusion paradigm. But I do wonder how to explain the occupying space in that case, and the extent to which it can be abused. Are there analogous spells?
for example, if it is an illusion, can you just disbelieve and walk through it?
All good questions, and while I think you're overthinking it I'll do my best to answer them all.
By occupying its space, the echo prevents movement. In my personal opinion, the echo is a time-displaced version of the originating creature. This could be trapped as a space-time distortion or force effect.
Allies can expressly move through a friendly creature's space, treating the space as difficult terrain, but they cannot expressly move through an object's space. Since the echo is an object, the rules for creatures do not apply to it. It cannot grant a rogue Sneak Attack, or optional flanking, and allies cannot pass through its space.
The echo is not expressly tangible, so it cannot be physically interacted with. It cannot be stood upon, shoved back or prone, and rope cannot be tied around it.
Since the echo occupies its space, and not even allied creatures can pass through that space, I would say it blocks other objects from entering its space as well.
If an interaction or mechanic was intended, the description would say so. As there's no mechanic for disbelieving the image, there's no way for an enemy to circumvent it and move through its space.
Fair points. How would you explain that an Echo occupies a space? Can allies move through the space? Can enemies? Can you stand on top of the space? And is it immovable, can it keep another object from entering the space?
I get that it is simply a mechanic. And I personally lean more towards the image/illusion paradigm. But I do wonder how to explain the occupying space in that case, and the extent to which it can be abused. Are there analogous spells?
for example, if it is an illusion, can you just disbelieve and walk through it?
All good questions, and while I think you're overthinking it I'll do my best to answer them all.
By occupying its space, the echo prevents movement. In my personal opinion, the echo is a time-displaced version of the originating creature. This could be trapped as a space-time distortion or force effect.
Allies can expressly move through a friendly creature's space, treating the space as difficult terrain, but they cannot expressly move through an object's space. Since the echo is an object, the rules for creatures do not apply to it. It cannot grant a rogue Sneak Attack, or optional flanking, and allies cannot pass through its space.
The echo is not expressly tangible, so it cannot be physically interacted with. It cannot be stood upon, shoved back or prone, and rope cannot be tied around it.
Since the echo occupies its space, and not even allied creatures can pass through that space, I would say it blocks other objects from entering its space as well.
If an interaction or mechanic was intended, the description would say so. As there's no mechanic for disbelieving the image, there's no way for an enemy to circumvent it and move through its space.
2 and 3 are mutually exclusive. To force the issue, come up with a mechanic, such as a stepladder, that will let you be physically above the echo, which has been deliberately put in a space with ground beneath it (i.e. it's just "standing" on the ground) then turn the mechanic off (in the case of a stepladder, step off of it) and wait. You will fall, and you must end your fall in some space. If your fall ends in the space above the echo, you have violated 3, and if your fall ends in the space with the echo, you have violated 2. The same issue applies to 3 and 4: pick up a piece of rope in this circumstance and toss it to the space above the echo, then wait. Either the rope will be stopped by the echo or it won't be, and you'll have violated this ruleset.
You can't have both tangibility and intangibility: either the echo is physically present, in which case you can touch it, tie a rope around it, etc, like you would a box, or it isn't, in which case you can't, but you can pass through it. You could rule the Echo is a hybrid of the two: for example, it could behave like it's made of smoke or heavy fog, and it could even behave like it's a liquid (including peanut butter). That is, there are certainly varying degrees of tangibility the Echo could have. All I'm saying is, it can't have two distinct degrees of tangibility simultaneously - you'll inevitably end up in a rules paradox, like the one outlined above.
Incidentally, you have moved through an object's grid-space before. The rules don't discuss it (including not banning it), but since the clothes you're wearing occupy their space (not grid-space; I'm saying you can't exist at the same space-time coordinates as your clothes, which is why they stay on you instead of falling off you spontaneously), every time you move, you're moving through the grid-space of your clothes. I can't say this with certainty, but odds are very good you've done this with other objects, like if you've ever had a character walk down a gravel road, meaning they entered a space that also contained small rocks. Your world will cease to function if you ban creatures from moving through the grid-space of objects regardless of relative size and dimension. You'll also stop anyone from ever using the squeezing rules, whose only purpose is allowing creatures to interact with a grid-space already partially occupied by an object.
I think you're confusing the term "its space" in the phrase "the echo occupies its space". The rules for an entity occupying space beyond its physical dimensions are only for creatures, and they are on PHB 191. For all objects, that rule does not apply - whatever it means for an object to occupy its space, that space is an expression of its physical dimensions, not the grid-space it controls in combat.
Fair points. How would you explain that an Echo occupies a space? Can allies move through the space? Can enemies? Can you stand on top of the space? And is it immovable, can it keep another object from entering the space?
I get that it is simply a mechanic. And I personally lean more towards the image/illusion paradigm. But I do wonder how to explain the occupying space in that case, and the extent to which it can be abused. Are there analogous spells?
for example, if it is an illusion, can you just disbelieve and walk through it?
All good questions, and while I think you're overthinking it I'll do my best to answer them all.
By occupying its space, the echo prevents movement. In my personal opinion, the echo is a time-displaced version of the originating creature. This could be trapped as a space-time distortion or force effect.
Allies can expressly move through a friendly creature's space, treating the space as difficult terrain, but they cannot expressly move through an object's space. Since the echo is an object, the rules for creatures do not apply to it. It cannot grant a rogue Sneak Attack, or optional flanking, and allies cannot pass through its space.
The echo is not expressly tangible, so it cannot be physically interacted with. It cannot be stood upon, shoved back or prone, and rope cannot be tied around it.
Since the echo occupies its space, and not even allied creatures can pass through that space, I would say it blocks other objects from entering its space as well.
If an interaction or mechanic was intended, the description would say so. As there's no mechanic for disbelieving the image, there's no way for an enemy to circumvent it and move through its space.
2 and 3 are mutually exclusive. To force the issue, come up with a mechanic, such as a stepladder, that will let you be physically above the echo, which has been deliberately put in a space with ground beneath it (i.e. it's just "standing" on the ground) then turn the mechanic off (in the case of a stepladder, step off of it) and wait. You will fall, and you must end your fall in some space. If your fall ends in the space above the echo, you have violated 3, and if your fall ends in the space with the echo, you have violated 2. The same issue applies to 3 and 4: pick up a piece of rope in this circumstance and toss it to the space above the echo, then wait. Either the rope will be stopped by the echo or it won't be, and you'll have violated this ruleset.
You can't have both tangibility and intangibility: either the echo is physically present, in which case you can touch it, tie a rope around it, etc, like you would a box, or it isn't, in which case you can't, but you can pass through it. You could rule the Echo is a hybrid of the two: for example, it could behave like it's made of smoke or heavy fog, and it could even behave like it's a liquid (including peanut butter). That is, there are certainly varying degrees of tangibility the Echo could have. All I'm saying is, it can't have two distinct degrees of tangibility simultaneously - you'll inevitably end up in a rules paradox, like the one outlined above.
Incidentally, you have moved through an object's grid-space before. The rules don't discuss it (including not banning it), but since the clothes you're wearing occupy their space (not grid-space; I'm saying you can't exist at the same space-time coordinates as your clothes, which is why they stay on you instead of falling off you spontaneously), every time you move, you're moving through the grid-space of your clothes. I can't say this with certainty, but odds are very good you've done this with other objects, like if you've ever had a character walk down a gravel road, meaning they entered a space that also contained small rocks. Your world will cease to function if you ban creatures from moving through the grid-space of objects regardless of relative size and dimension. You'll also stop anyone from ever using the squeezing rules, whose only purpose is allowing creatures to interact with a grid-space already partially occupied by an object.
I think you're confusing the term "its space" in the phrase "the echo occupies its space". The rules for an entity occupying space beyond its physical dimensions are only for creatures, and they are on PHB 191. For all objects, that rule does not apply - whatever it means for an object to occupy its space, that space is an expression of its physical dimensions, not the grid-space it controls in combat.
I disagree with your claim of mutual exclusivity. The echo, rather explicitly, occupies its own space; so it creates an obstruction of some kind. But that obstruction needn't be physical. It may or may not be transparent, but it does prevent movement. It needn't even be tangible, though it may still provide cover. If it were intended to be tangible, the description would say so. If a conjured guardian of faith were intended to be tangible, the spell would say so.
The rules of the game are not prohibitive. They are entirely laid out in terms of granting permissions: what the player, and their character, can do with their myriad features, spells, traits, and more. Just because something doesn't say you can't doesn't automatically mean you can. The permission doesn't explicitly exist. Any rules interactions beyond the expressed permissions should be viewed as house rules and not rules as written.
The spell illusory dragon was introduced in Xanathar's Guide to Everything; a sourcebook that came out three years after guardian of faith was introduced in the Player's Handbook. The choice of labeling the dragon tangible is nothing short of deliberate; as is the lack of errata for the guardian. There is an intentional difference between them. And the language used for Manifest Echo in Explorer's Guide to Wildmount, another three years down the road, more closely echos (pun intended) the PHB. That, too, is deliberate.
There's no rules paradox, here. The echo controlling its own space is not the same thing as being tangible. All it does is block movement. Your entire paragraph about clothing, gravel roads, and squeezing through smaller spaces is one gigantic non sequitur. Again, if you use the spell silent image to create the illusion of a brick wall or adult red dragon, that illusion is still an object. But it's an intangible object that does not occupy its own space. There would be no resistance if you tried to touch it, and you could pass right through it if you so chose to do so. This is in stark contrast to the echo, a different object, which does occupy its own space. And the only reason we use the term "object" is because anything that isn't a "creature" is an object.
Manifest Echo is a strange feature, I'm not going to lie. It seems to borrow a little from quantum theory; a sort of Schrödinger's Subclass Feature, if you will. Both the Echo and the Echo Knight who summoned it simultaneously exist in a state of flux. When you "teleport", swapping places with an alternate you from another timeline, you may actually be hopping timelines. The version of you that remains after the fight is over and the Echo is dismissed might not be the same version of your character who began the fight; even if their statistics are identical. Your character might have swapped places with another them from a parallel reality, and that's wild to think about.
So if a rogue echo knight could sneak attack through it, what about a monk echo knight wanting to flurry of blows?
Only attacks made with your Attack can be made through the echo. Anything that makes use of your bonus action, such as Flurry of Blows, cannot.
Good catch. I read the original comment, but didn't think about that part. Pretty clear from the wording of the Echo, that you are correct.
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
There's no rules paradox, here. The echo controlling its own space is not the same thing as being tangible. All it does is block movement.
There is no rule in the game stating that an object that occupies its space blocks movement. I agree with this interpretation of the rule that it occupies its space, but I want it on the record that you and I are agreeing on an RAI, not a RAW.
More importantly, an object that blocks movement blocks movement, which means you can stand on it, as falling is movement. Same logic applies to rope.
There's no rules paradox, here. The echo controlling its own space is not the same thing as being tangible. All it does is block movement.
There is no rule in the game stating that an object that occupies its space blocks movement. I agree with this interpretation of the rule that it occupies its space, but I want it on the record that you and I are agreeing on an RAI, not a RAW.
More importantly, an object that blocks movement blocks movement, which means you can stand on it, as falling is movement. Same logic applies to rope.
You're right, that rule doesn't explicitly exist. Because it doesn't need to. That's what "occupy" means. To say otherwise means you can pass right through its space as if it weren't there.
Literally, the only thing that "occupies its space" means is the application of this rule. Sort of. It's an object, not a creature, so it's something you have to move around. But that doesn't mean it's tangible. Preventing movement is not the same thing as being tangible. You cannot tie a rope around the echo. If the echo was intended to be tangible, then the feature would say so. We know this because the precedent was already established twenty-eight months earlier with illusory dragon.
And if you're implying a character can fall on top of an echo and stand atop it, then apply the same logic to another character. Because those are the dimensions we're working in. And, fortunately, Tasha's has a rule that can help with this.
FALLING ONTO A CREATURE
If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature.
Granted, the echo isn't a creature. It's an object. But two "masses" with hit points are...colliding. (I don't have a better word for it at the moment.) My thought process is this rule was included to be applicable to the echo. It can make a saving throw; using the echo knight's modifier. But that's just an interpretation.
No, it doesn't. A guardian of faith occupies its space, but it also doesn't explicitly say it's tangible. An illusory dragon both explicitly occupies its space and is tangible. There's a difference.
Question:
Can you use the following feature :
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
If the creature is pushed or pulled the 5 ft?
I know not so in normal aoo, but I thought the wording suggested just a movement not a movement under it's own will.
I would suggest the standard rules apply, so push and pull doesn't count.
Unless otherwise stated, "moves" refers to a creature actually using its own speed to move somewhere. Pushes and pulls don't count. Teleportation does not count. Something like Dissonant Whispers would count.
Thank you
Hello all. For anyone who still follows this thread, I apologize for being inactive for so long. Though I created the original FAQ, I haven't been able to update it with any frequency. That said, I still love Echo Knights, and this FAQ seems to have gotten a fair amount of use. Thus I'm open to updating it again, but would like to ask for your assistance, should you be interested.
I'm sure there have been numerous new questions since my last update that aren't currently in the FAQ. If anyone is willing to help collect and format some of those questions and answers, I'll happily add them to the main page/post. Obviously I've been following the format of "Q:" for the questions, and "A:" for the answer. I've tried to keep answers as close to RAW as possible. If there isn't an official source for the answer, or if it is contentious or debatable topic (ie 'can you stand on an echo?'), I try to list the options and defer to DM. For simplicity, I also use “Knight” to refer to the main character, and “Echo” to refer to the manifested echo.
If you'd like to reply this message with any new Q's and A's you'd like add, please feel free and I'll try to add them within a week or two. Likewise, if you have other feedback for the FAQ, please let me know. Thank you.
Yes, I have a question. Here are some effects with the same text as or similar text to the Echo has for being moved:
Mage Hand specifies that the hand floats (it is described as a floating hand). So far as I know, everyone accepts that a Mage Hand floats in space where you left it.
I can't link to Psi Warrior's text as I don't own a copy of Tasha's on here, but I can paste it from my pdf if required. Suffice to say that you can use an ability it has called Telekinetic Movement to move a rock 30 feet up, and then as soon as the effect ends (which is immediate, as it's instantaneous), the rock falls back down. Note that Psi Warrior explicitly states that vertical movement is ok. In particular, Telekinetic Movement can be used to move an Echo 30 feet.
Telekinesis lets you move something, and then the thing stays in place, held by the spell, until you "let go", whereupon the thing falls. Note that Telekinesis works on the Echo if the Echo weights 1,000 pounds or less; I am well aware the Echo's weight is simply unknown.
Flaming Sphere is worded curiously: it says you can just move it 30 feet, but also then explicitly tells you it can be directed over barriers up to 5 feet tall and "jumped" over "pits". So far as I know, Flaming Sphere is commonly interpreted to fall.
The FAQ (obviously correctly) specifies that the Echo can be moved in any direction, as its rules simply let you move it, without any caveats. However, if I understand the FAQ correctly, it claims that the Echo stays where the Knight leaves it. If the Echo is simply a magically summoned object, on what basis is it immune to the falling rules all other objects are subject to? I can't find any rules text stopping it from falling down right after you move it up, just like a rock that's been moved up using Telekinetic Movement, or the Telekinesis spell if the caster immediately drops concentration.
That question again: why doesn't the Echo fall?
Separately, I've found an incorrect entry in the FAQ, I think:
(Updated) Q: Is an Echo affected by difficult terrain?
A: No, Echoes don't have a speed, so difficult terrain doesn't affect them. (thanks @LeviRocks)
These are the actual rules for difficult terrain:
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. (PHB 190)
There is no requirement something have a speed to be affected by difficult terrain, only movement. This comes up all the time - for example, when using the Telekinesis spell above to move a creature or object through a hostile creature's space. Since the Echo has no rules for being incorporeal and definitely does have rules for occupying its space, RAW, when the Knight moves it, rough terrain (including the spaces of hostile creatures) should cost twice as much movement, per the rule I just quoted.
This is also wrong, I think:
(Updated - 4/28) Q: Can allies pass through an Echo’s space?
A: No, because it occupies a space, and isn't considered an ally or creature. This would be like trying to run through a wall. (thanks @LeviRocks)
While the Echo is exactly like a wall, it is also exactly like a chair. It does not occupy "a" space in the sense of a combat grid, it occupies its space, i.e. its own volume, and since the Echo is an exact "image" of the Knight, this either means the Echo is of unknowable volume or, and I think this is clearly intended, exactly the same dimensions as the Knight, which means it interacts with movement like a statue, not like a wall. Furthermore, as discussed already, Echos have no known weight value. If they weigh 0 pounds, then, like any 0 pound object, they can be pushed out of the way. Even if they weigh more than this, this simply means they are an object with weight - like a statue sitting on the ground, not like a wall built into the ground. Echos are objects, but they aren't terrain.
The rules allowing something to occupy a combat grid space larger than its own space/volume are specific to creatures and do not apply to objects. As an example of the distinction, a Bugbear could not only enter the combat grid space of a Halfling Knight's Echo, it could then sit on the Echo like it would a stool. It could also kick the echo out of the square like it would a soccer ball - the echo has no special rules distinguishing it from a soccer ball, aside from the need for the GM to rule on its weight (and potentially volume). In fact, since it also has no special rules distinguishing it from a bowl of soup, the bugbear could pick up the echo and wield it as an improvised weapon, just like it could the Knight's corpse.
I don't think it's right that an echo can be pushed or otherwise forcible moved. It's an image, an illusion. It's only an object because it's not a creature. If you use silent image to create the illusion of a brick wall or adult red dragon that illusion is still an object. But it's an intangible object and cannot be physically interacted with. If you tried to touch it, there would be no resistance and you would pass right through it.
Occupying one's space is not the same as having any tangible properties. The spell guardian of faith also creates something (an object) that occupies its space. So does the spell illusory dragon, but that particular spell also explicitly states the illusion is tangible.
So there is a meaningful distinction.
Thanks for the feedback and questions @quindraco. I'll partially be relying on folks in this forum to debate the correct answers. But regarding difficult terrain, I believe there was a tweet or other clarify by Jeremy Crawford or Sage Advice that stated that Echo's don't have a movement speed of their own. Difficult terrain applies to "movement". Moving an Echo is a "mental command" on the Knight's turn, and not thing the Echo does on it's own. I imagine this is much like moving a spiritual weapon or bigby's hand, which I believe are not impacted by terrain or related effects. However, if there is strong disagreement with this, I can list both options in the FAQ, but I do think it was previously debated.
But... this leads to the next questions. Q: Is an Echo tangible? I've seen a lot of debate on this. It does hover/fly and RAW says it is an image. However it has 1 hit point, which implies physical things can damage it. And it 'occupies its space', which I assume also means that enemy creatures can't pass through it's space. I'm unsure if the wording "its space" can be debated here, as being the space the form occupies, or the 5'x5' square the Echo is in. This leads to lots of questions however, such as if you can hang from an echo, stand on it, push it? Can it act like an immovable rod? Can allies pass through it? If it is tangible, can it carry you if you hold onto it? Can it pass through walls? I'm open to ideas on the best way to present this in the FAQ.
You can probably guess by my previous post on the subject, but I do not believe the echo is tangible. Lots of things, including creatures capable of incorporeal movement such as ghosts, have hit points and occupy their own space. And hit points have always been an abstraction. I think the 1 hit point is a necessary mechanic; representing that any direct damage will disperse the image.
However you wish to describe this occupying space, be it some force effect or just the sheer wow factor of, "Oh, my gods, there's two of them," the echo should not be interpreted as being tangible. It simply lacks the qualifying text that illusory dragon includes in its description. Absent that text, I would say it's up to DM interpretation and would not argue against it. But because that qualifier does exist, and because the echo lacks the language, it should not be tangible.
Fair points. How would you explain that an Echo occupies a space? Can allies move through the space? Can enemies? Can you stand on top of the space? And is it immovable, can it keep another object from entering the space?
I get that it is simply a mechanic. And I personally lean more towards the image/illusion paradigm. But I do wonder how to explain the occupying space in that case, and the extent to which it can be abused. Are there analogous spells?
for example, if it is an illusion, can you just disbelieve and walk through it?
"(Updated) Q: Can an Echo be used to perform a grapple or shove attack?
A: Maybe, there is still some debate over if and how grappling and shoving might work. Per the PHB, grapple and shove are "special melee attacks" included in the Attack action. Manifest Echo states, "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space." Unfortunately, the rules for when a creature tries to break free of a grapple, how it is maintained, and how movement while would work while grappled with the echo are not clear. (thanks @LeviRocks)"
I would think the Echo could be used for either a grapple or shove, but only the shove would have any lasting effect. Shove using the Echo Knight's abilities from the Echo's position would be considered an attack and could knock it prone. The Echo Knight could also theoretically grapple an opponent and succeed, but really only for the duration of the attack, making it useless. The Echo is an object, it can't maintain the grappled condition, beyond the Echo Knight's attack. The Echo Knight goes back to his/her position away from the creature grappled. Once that happens, the grappled condition is removed. The effect removing the condition is the Echo Knight returning to their original position.
Appendix A: Conditions...
All good questions, and while I think you're overthinking it I'll do my best to answer them all.
2 and 3 are mutually exclusive. To force the issue, come up with a mechanic, such as a stepladder, that will let you be physically above the echo, which has been deliberately put in a space with ground beneath it (i.e. it's just "standing" on the ground) then turn the mechanic off (in the case of a stepladder, step off of it) and wait. You will fall, and you must end your fall in some space. If your fall ends in the space above the echo, you have violated 3, and if your fall ends in the space with the echo, you have violated 2. The same issue applies to 3 and 4: pick up a piece of rope in this circumstance and toss it to the space above the echo, then wait. Either the rope will be stopped by the echo or it won't be, and you'll have violated this ruleset.
You can't have both tangibility and intangibility: either the echo is physically present, in which case you can touch it, tie a rope around it, etc, like you would a box, or it isn't, in which case you can't, but you can pass through it. You could rule the Echo is a hybrid of the two: for example, it could behave like it's made of smoke or heavy fog, and it could even behave like it's a liquid (including peanut butter). That is, there are certainly varying degrees of tangibility the Echo could have. All I'm saying is, it can't have two distinct degrees of tangibility simultaneously - you'll inevitably end up in a rules paradox, like the one outlined above.
Incidentally, you have moved through an object's grid-space before. The rules don't discuss it (including not banning it), but since the clothes you're wearing occupy their space (not grid-space; I'm saying you can't exist at the same space-time coordinates as your clothes, which is why they stay on you instead of falling off you spontaneously), every time you move, you're moving through the grid-space of your clothes. I can't say this with certainty, but odds are very good you've done this with other objects, like if you've ever had a character walk down a gravel road, meaning they entered a space that also contained small rocks. Your world will cease to function if you ban creatures from moving through the grid-space of objects regardless of relative size and dimension. You'll also stop anyone from ever using the squeezing rules, whose only purpose is allowing creatures to interact with a grid-space already partially occupied by an object.
I think you're confusing the term "its space" in the phrase "the echo occupies its space". The rules for an entity occupying space beyond its physical dimensions are only for creatures, and they are on PHB 191. For all objects, that rule does not apply - whatever it means for an object to occupy its space, that space is an expression of its physical dimensions, not the grid-space it controls in combat.
I disagree with your claim of mutual exclusivity. The echo, rather explicitly, occupies its own space; so it creates an obstruction of some kind. But that obstruction needn't be physical. It may or may not be transparent, but it does prevent movement. It needn't even be tangible, though it may still provide cover. If it were intended to be tangible, the description would say so. If a conjured guardian of faith were intended to be tangible, the spell would say so.
The rules of the game are not prohibitive. They are entirely laid out in terms of granting permissions: what the player, and their character, can do with their myriad features, spells, traits, and more. Just because something doesn't say you can't doesn't automatically mean you can. The permission doesn't explicitly exist. Any rules interactions beyond the expressed permissions should be viewed as house rules and not rules as written.
The spell illusory dragon was introduced in Xanathar's Guide to Everything; a sourcebook that came out three years after guardian of faith was introduced in the Player's Handbook. The choice of labeling the dragon tangible is nothing short of deliberate; as is the lack of errata for the guardian. There is an intentional difference between them. And the language used for Manifest Echo in Explorer's Guide to Wildmount, another three years down the road, more closely echos (pun intended) the PHB. That, too, is deliberate.
There's no rules paradox, here. The echo controlling its own space is not the same thing as being tangible. All it does is block movement. Your entire paragraph about clothing, gravel roads, and squeezing through smaller spaces is one gigantic non sequitur. Again, if you use the spell silent image to create the illusion of a brick wall or adult red dragon, that illusion is still an object. But it's an intangible object that does not occupy its own space. There would be no resistance if you tried to touch it, and you could pass right through it if you so chose to do so. This is in stark contrast to the echo, a different object, which does occupy its own space. And the only reason we use the term "object" is because anything that isn't a "creature" is an object.
Manifest Echo is a strange feature, I'm not going to lie. It seems to borrow a little from quantum theory; a sort of Schrödinger's Subclass Feature, if you will. Both the Echo and the Echo Knight who summoned it simultaneously exist in a state of flux. When you "teleport", swapping places with an alternate you from another timeline, you may actually be hopping timelines. The version of you that remains after the fight is over and the Echo is dismissed might not be the same version of your character who began the fight; even if their statistics are identical. Your character might have swapped places with another them from a parallel reality, and that's wild to think about.
So if a rogue echo knight could sneak attack through it, what about a monk echo knight wanting to flurry of blows?
Only attacks made with your Attack can be made through the echo. Anything that makes use of your bonus action, such as Flurry of Blows, cannot.
Good catch. I read the original comment, but didn't think about that part. Pretty clear from the wording of the Echo, that you are correct.
"When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack."
There is no rule in the game stating that an object that occupies its space blocks movement. I agree with this interpretation of the rule that it occupies its space, but I want it on the record that you and I are agreeing on an RAI, not a RAW.
More importantly, an object that blocks movement blocks movement, which means you can stand on it, as falling is movement. Same logic applies to rope.
You're right, that rule doesn't explicitly exist. Because it doesn't need to. That's what "occupy" means. To say otherwise means you can pass right through its space as if it weren't there.
Literally, the only thing that "occupies its space" means is the application of this rule. Sort of. It's an object, not a creature, so it's something you have to move around. But that doesn't mean it's tangible. Preventing movement is not the same thing as being tangible. You cannot tie a rope around the echo. If the echo was intended to be tangible, then the feature would say so. We know this because the precedent was already established twenty-eight months earlier with illusory dragon.
And if you're implying a character can fall on top of an echo and stand atop it, then apply the same logic to another character. Because those are the dimensions we're working in. And, fortunately, Tasha's has a rule that can help with this.
Granted, the echo isn't a creature. It's an object. But two "masses" with hit points are...colliding. (I don't have a better word for it at the moment.) My thought process is this rule was included to be applicable to the echo. It can make a saving throw; using the echo knight's modifier. But that's just an interpretation.