This is why I think Monk in general suffers from Opportunity Cost....it will be rare that Prone is better in a situation than Simply Stunning the enemy.
For fist its a full action to damage and TRY to push/prone a single enemy. One good save and they avoid it.
So you spend 2 ki and they take on average 16.5 damage and may be Prone....they can stand on their turn (Which maybe next).
VS.
You attack them three times, twice with a spear and once unarmed and try to stun twice.
You spend 2 ki and do average 21.5 damage and they are stunned until the END of their next turn...meaning you put them out completely for at least one round.
In both cases your allies get ADV to hit them...with ranged allies getting ADV for the stunned (which makes stunned better for ranged allies)
Stunned just makes more sense 90% of the time for the ki spent. Repeated saves are the best way to ensure success and Stun Spam works...even with a good CON you will stun then eventually.
The other benefit is that you can potentially target more than 1 creature. If you get lucky and stun the first enemy you can run and stun another in the same turn for the same ki cost.
Overall the fist is nice don't get me wrong....but its no Stun.
This is why I think Monk in general suffers from Opportunity Cost....it will be rare that Prone is better in a situation than Simply Stunning the enemy.
For fist its a full action to damage and TRY to push/prone a single enemy. One good save and they avoid it.
So you spend 2 ki and they take on average 16.5 damage and may be Prone....they can stand on their turn (Which maybe next).
VS.
You attack them three times, twice with a spear and once unarmed and try to stun twice.
You spend 2 ki and do average 21.5 damage and they are stunned until the END of their next turn...meaning you put them out completely for at least one round.
In both cases your allies get ADV to hit them...with ranged allies getting ADV for the stunned (which makes stunned better for ranged allies)
Stunned just makes more sense 90% of the time for the ki spent. Repeated saves are the best way to ensure success and Stun Spam works...even with a good CON you will stun then eventually.
The other benefit is that you can potentially target more than 1 creature. If you get lucky and stun the first enemy you can run and stun another in the same turn for the same ki cost.
Overall the fist is nice don't get me wrong....but its no Stun.
The biggest difference is that you can't stun at range. Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air both give the Monk ranged options that it desperately needs, and it even gives additional benefits beyond those via push/pull/prone.
It isn't Stunning, that is correct. It's not as good. But it is situational and does something other Monks can't.
(Also, a pet peeve of mine is the general consensus that Monks are boring because they only Stunning Strike, then when other options outside of Stunning Strike are given they are immediately shot down because they aren't as good as Stunning Strike. I am not saying you are doing this, Optimus, it is just a general observation -- critics of Monks can't have their cake and eat it too, meaning they can't knock Stunning Strike for being boring while also advocating against any strategy that gives combat options beyond Stunning Strike.)
I did not make up any numbers used. All I did was take the most standard average possible and report the number I got and I did not include any extra ki points spent to upcast. Even your example of a build falls nowhere near the 1.8 average cost you claim, and it still relies on three of the cheapest options available without upcasting.
The build I named is no the lowest cost possible t t build available. But you didn't bother to really look at the abilities to know that did you?
I never said it was, simply that the build you made (which averaged out to a little above 2 average ki) relies on three of the cheapest elemental discipline options which will bias the average of that build towards the lower end of possible costs.
Edit: Removed other continuations of the argument past this point. I am just going to leave it at this correction as I see no benefit of continuing it further past this point.
Edit2: This thread has been very helpful. I have seen things from a few different angles and possible interpretations. I have been convinced by some arguments, others have not changed my original position. I still feel way of the four elements is one of the weakest monk subclasses that could use more corrections to its base form.
As an elemental discipline, Fist of Unbroken Air has a couple of things going for it. If you're only using it to knock an enemy prone, then you're being short-sighted. That said, its ability to knock a target prone nicely compliments everything else the ability can do.
It targets an uncommon saving throw. If you're looking to shove someone prone, Acrobatics and Athletics are both fairly common for enemies to have. Even if they're not proficient in the skill, they'll have a decent modifier. But against dexterous enemies, it won't matter.
It can be used in melee to attack someone at range without penalty. Because it targets a saving throw, there's attack roll to suffer disadvantage. If you're also using the optional rules as presented in Tasha's, then you can let loose with a FoUA against one target and follow up with an unarmed strike against another you're already engaged with.
It can force movement. Nobody will get in any Opportunity Attacks against someone a monk forcible moves, but that's not the point. You can get rid of someone harassing another character; probably a PC. And if you knock them prone as well, then they're spending half their movement to get back up. Assuming the standard move of 30 for a humanoid, and they're only closing 15 by the end of their next turn.
Its damage potential is higher than explicitly stated. What happens when you knock a target over a ledge? They fall and take additional damage. What happens when you knock a target prone when they have a fly speed and lack the ability to hover? They fall and take additional damage. Yes, the monk needs to get within 30 feet of them, but this isn't impossible. It may be something for the party to solve together.
It's just another tool for controlling the flow of battle. Sure, stunned is a "better" condition to inflict on foes. But it isn't always an option. And even if it is an option, it isn't always the preferable option.
This is why I think Monk in general suffers from Opportunity Cost....it will be rare that Prone is better in a situation than Simply Stunning the enemy.
For fist its a full action to damage and TRY to push/prone a single enemy. One good save and they avoid it.
So you spend 2 ki and they take on average 16.5 damage and may be Prone....they can stand on their turn (Which maybe next).
VS.
You attack them three times, twice with a spear and once unarmed and try to stun twice.
You spend 2 ki and do average 21.5 damage and they are stunned until the END of their next turn...meaning you put them out completely for at least one round.
In both cases your allies get ADV to hit them...with ranged allies getting ADV for the stunned (which makes stunned better for ranged allies)
Stunned just makes more sense 90% of the time for the ki spent. Repeated saves are the best way to ensure success and Stun Spam works...even with a good CON you will stun then eventually.
The other benefit is that you can potentially target more than 1 creature. If you get lucky and stun the first enemy you can run and stun another in the same turn for the same ki cost.
Overall the fist is nice don't get me wrong....but its no Stun.
The biggest difference is that you can't stun at range. Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air both give the Monk ranged options that it desperately needs, and it even gives additional benefits beyond those via push/pull/prone.
It isn't Stunning, that is correct. It's not as good. But it is situational and does something other Monks can't.
(Also, a pet peeve of mine is the general consensus that Monks are boring because they only Stunning Strike, then when other options outside of Stunning Strike are given they are immediately shot down because they aren't as good as Stunning Strike. I am not saying you are doing this, Optimus, it is just a general observation -- critics of Monks can't have their cake and eat it too, meaning they can't knock Stunning Strike for being boring while also advocating against any strategy that gives combat options beyond Stunning Strike.)
I generally say it takes a lot to be better than a Stun though....simply because of how good it is. Especially if it costs Ki is my point. If it was a free thing they could do per short rest (like if they had Pact Slots like my suggestion!) Then it would be a lot more valuable as its another resource to be able to use.
Its the major design flaw of 4E IMO...they just need another resource pool and it would be considered one of the best monks IMO
As an elemental discipline, Fist of Unbroken Air has a couple of things going for it. If you're only using it to knock an enemy prone, then you're being short-sighted. That said, its ability to knock a target prone nicely compliments everything else the ability can do.
It targets an uncommon saving throw. If you're looking to shove someone prone, Acrobatics and Athletics are both fairly common for enemies to have. Even if they're not proficient in the skill, they'll have a decent modifier. But against dexterous enemies, it won't matter.
It can be used in melee to attack someone at range without penalty. Because it targets a saving throw, there's attack roll to suffer disadvantage. If you're also using the optional rules as presented in Tasha's, then you can let loose with a FoUA against one target and follow up with an unarmed strike against another you're already engaged with.
It can force movement. Nobody will get in any Opportunity Attacks against someone a monk forcible moves, but that's not the point. You can get rid of someone harassing another character; probably a PC. And if you knock them prone as well, then they're spending half their movement to get back up. Assuming the standard move of 30 for a humanoid, and they're only closing 15 by the end of their next turn.
Its damage potential is higher than explicitly stated. What happens when you knock a target over a ledge? They fall and take additional damage. What happens when you knock a target prone when they have a fly speed and lack the ability to hover? They fall and take additional damage. Yes, the monk needs to get within 30 feet of them, but this isn't impossible. It may be something for the party to solve together.
It's just another tool for controlling the flow of battle. Sure, stunned is a "better" condition to inflict on foes. But it isn't always an option. And even if it is an option, it isn't always the preferable option.
Stunning does all this....you don't need to move something if it can't attack...they can just move away. Forced movement is good and this would be the one situation where I could see the fist being better is if you absolutely need something somewhere...this is the 10% of the time its a good option.
If you are relying on a ledge to increase your damage that is highly situational and the amount of times it would come up over Stun is so few as to barely be worth mentioning. Likely less than 0.1% of the time this will come up.
Tasha's lets you use a whip as a dedicated weapon if you get proficiency for it. Also movement speeds for monks means that its rarely an issue getting to a creature....especially since the range on the fist is 30ft anyway...you would hardly ever find yourself out of range to simply run in and stun. Seeing as you can use a BA to dash as a monk then its almost never going to come up. If the distance was 60ft or more I would agree with you...but 30ft is just not enough for this to be a benefit.
Now the other 10% I could see is proning a flying creature...that is a rare thing to be able to do but very worthwhile....the bad thing is flying creatures generally have enough flight speed to be out of 30ft range most of the time but its hard to say...about 10% of the time this will be the better choice.
So overall 80% of the time you are likely better off spending the ki to stun.
How I would make fist better:
1. Make it so you can spend the ki to replace one of your attacks with the fist once per turn. Make the cost higher (3 ki) to balance.
2. Increase distance. 60ft would be amazing as you can prone flying creatures more often.
Now you're just making stuff up. Not only are you pulling statistics out of thin air, but you're blatantly misrepresenting what the ability can do. No, really, where are you even getting 10% of the time from?
Stunning Strike, rather explicitly, cannot do any of the things I just mentioned. It targets Constitution (a common saving throw), must be used with a melee attack, does not forcibly reposition anyone, and it lacks the reach to knock someone out of the air or over a ledge and into a hazard. If you'd rather use Ride the Wind to fly and then try Stunning Strike on a flying opponent, then have at it. But that's even more ki you're burning through.
And, who knows, maybe there are some monks who do both.
It's fine if you think the ability isn't worth it for you. But that doesn't mean it's underpowered. It's not. It's actually quite strong.
Now you're just making stuff up. Not only are you pulling statistics out of thin air, but you're blatantly misrepresenting what the ability can do. No, really, where are you even getting 10% of the time from?
Stunning Strike, rather explicitly, cannot do any of the things I just mentioned. It targets Constitution (a common saving throw), must be used with a melee attack, does not forcibly reposition anyone, and it lacks the reach to knock someone out of the air or over a ledge and into a hazard. If you'd rather use Ride the Wind to fly and then try Stunning Strike on a flying opponent, then have at it. But that's even more ki you're burning through.
And, who knows, maybe there are some monks who do both.
It's fine if you think the ability isn't worth it for you. But that doesn't mean it's underpowered. It's not. It's actually quite strong.
I am just spitballing here....I never said it was hard/fast surefire numbers just my ballpark of what I think it would be.
If you are saying you are hitting these situations more often than 10% of the time then I understand how you would find it more valuable...I simply do not and I would guess that most don't see them more than roughly 10% of the time but its obviously hard to say.
Its strong...just not as strong as Stun.
Stun makes most of the advantages of prone/push moot as it does one better...it completely takes the actions and movement away from a creature rather than slowing it down or moving it away.
CON is a common save sure...but spamming stun will basically ensure at least one failure. The fact you can attempt it up to 4 times in a turn if needed just heavily weighs in its favor.
Even spending max Ki on it you are looking at 5 ki for 4 attempts at a stun...even creatures with a a high CON will have a very low chance of success upon repeated saves.
Its just so good its hard to beat most of the time.
Unbroken Air and Water Whip are both good. As good as Stunning Strike? Depends on the situation. The push/pull/prone might not be as good as a stun but they offer control options stunning strike doesn’t, and at range.
Does the wizard have a Web out, or Druid entangle or spike growth? Push or pull them into it. Or through it in the case of spike growth for 2d4/5feet
Is your party melee and spell casters, no range (like my current party)? Prone gives your melee advantage and no effect on the spell casters really. You can do damage and try to knock prone without pushing or pulling if I’m reading them right. Water whip them to the ground or bring down your Unbroken Air(strike) straight down on their heads and prone them right in front of your barbarian, paladin, or fighter.
in a narrow space like a Hallway and can’t get past your tanks to stunning strike? Unless you have Fangs of the Fire Snake to give you 15’ reach or maybe a bugbear monk you can’t stun. Maybe if the ceiling is high enough you can run up the wall and over the front line but then you’re possibly stuck with no one to help you amongst the enemy mobs.
Seems like there are plenty of opportunities where these disciplines can shine where stunning strike may not be able to.
Now you're just making stuff up. Not only are you pulling statistics out of thin air, but you're blatantly misrepresenting what the ability can do. No, really, where are you even getting 10% of the time from?
Stunning Strike, rather explicitly, cannot do any of the things I just mentioned. It targets Constitution (a common saving throw), must be used with a melee attack, does not forcibly reposition anyone, and it lacks the reach to knock someone out of the air or over a ledge and into a hazard. If you'd rather use Ride the Wind to fly and then try Stunning Strike on a flying opponent, then have at it. But that's even more ki you're burning through.
And, who knows, maybe there are some monks who do both.
It's fine if you think the ability isn't worth it for you. But that doesn't mean it's underpowered. It's not. It's actually quite strong.
I am just spitballing here....I never said it was hard/fast surefire numbers just my ballpark of what I think it would be.
If you are saying you are hitting these situations more often than 10% of the time then I understand how you would find it more valuable...I simply do not and I would guess that most don't see them more than roughly 10% of the time but its obviously hard to say.
Its strong...just not as strong as Stun.
Stun makes most of the advantages of prone/push moot as it does one better...it completely takes the actions and movement away from a creature rather than slowing it down or moving it away.
CON is a common save sure...but spamming stun will basically ensure at least one failure. The fact you can attempt it up to 4 times in a turn if needed just heavily weighs in its favor.
Even spending max Ki on it you are looking at 5 ki for 4 attempts at a stun...even creatures with a a high CON will have a very low chance of success upon repeated saves.
Its just so good its hard to beat most of the time.
So spending 4-5 Ki to stun is better than 2 Ki to push or pull and knock prone? Possibly. Or you could spend the same Ki on FoUA or WW and do 5d10 and possibly push/pull/knock prone. Yes, it’s only one chance that could fail compared to the multiple attempts you can try to stun but you are still doing damage even if they save.
It’s a trade off, to be sure. But I can see them all being valuable and gives options
Now you're just making stuff up. Not only are you pulling statistics out of thin air, but you're blatantly misrepresenting what the ability can do. No, really, where are you even getting 10% of the time from?
Stunning Strike, rather explicitly, cannot do any of the things I just mentioned. It targets Constitution (a common saving throw), must be used with a melee attack, does not forcibly reposition anyone, and it lacks the reach to knock someone out of the air or over a ledge and into a hazard. If you'd rather use Ride the Wind to fly and then try Stunning Strike on a flying opponent, then have at it. But that's even more ki you're burning through.
And, who knows, maybe there are some monks who do both.
It's fine if you think the ability isn't worth it for you. But that doesn't mean it's underpowered. It's not. It's actually quite strong.
I am just spitballing here....I never said it was hard/fast surefire numbers just my ballpark of what I think it would be.
If you are saying you are hitting these situations more often than 10% of the time then I understand how you would find it more valuable...I simply do not and I would guess that most don't see them more than roughly 10% of the time but its obviously hard to say.
Its strong...just not as strong as Stun.
Stun makes most of the advantages of prone/push moot as it does one better...it completely takes the actions and movement away from a creature rather than slowing it down or moving it away.
CON is a common save sure...but spamming stun will basically ensure at least one failure. The fact you can attempt it up to 4 times in a turn if needed just heavily weighs in its favor.
Even spending max Ki on it you are looking at 5 ki for 4 attempts at a stun...even creatures with a a high CON will have a very low chance of success upon repeated saves.
Its just so good its hard to beat most of the time.
So spending 4-5 Ki to stun is better than 2 Ki to push or pull and knock prone? Possibly. Or you could spend the same Ki on FoUA or WW and do 5d10 and possibly push/pull/knock prone. Yes, it’s only one chance that could fail compared to the multiple attempts you can try to stun but you are still doing damage even if they save.
It’s a trade off, to be sure. But I can see them all being valuable and gives options
Spending the 5 ki also gives you 4 attacks which puts is soildily ahead of the 3d10 damage you do....you would spend 5 ki to do 5d10 which is lower than the attacks on average at 5th level:
4 attacks (two with spear, two unarmed) = (2d8+8) + (2d6+8) = 32 average
5d10 = 25 Damage average.
So you are getting more damage, more chances at a debilitating effect (1 vs 4 chances) and the effect is stronger (stun removes actions and allows ANYONE to get advantage on attacks and they autofail certain saves).
So yes if you comparing apples to apples then it is better overall.
It's 27.5 damage, since each d10 averages at 5.5 ((1+10)/2=5.5). But that's splitting hairs and beside the point.
As has been repeated multiple times, they are ranged options for when the monk won't always be able, or even want, to close the distance. So, if not one of those, what would you pick for 3rd level? Fangs of the Fire Snake to change up the damage type of your unarmed strikes? Perpahs you'd like Fist of Four Thunders or Sweeping Cinder Strike for some area of effect damage. Or how about pure utility in Shape the Flowing River?
You're perfectly entitled to have your own opinions on what you think is worth it. No two monks, especially Way of the Four Elements monks, need to play identically. But, if I'm being totally honest, you're coming across as overly dismissive. And that's not constructive to the conversation.
It's 27.5 damage, since each d10 averages at 5.5 ((1+10)/2=5.5). But that's splitting hairs and beside the point.
As has been repeated multiple times, they are ranged options for when the monk won't always be able, or even want, to close the distance. So, if not one of those, what would you pick for 3rd level? Fangs of the Fire Snake to change up the damage type of your unarmed strikes? Perpahs you'd like Fist of Four Thunders or Sweeping Cinder Strike for some area of effect damage. Or how about pure utility in Shape the Flowing River?
You're perfectly entitled to have your own opinions on what you think is worth it. No two monks, especially Way of the Four Elements monks, need to play identically. But, if I'm being totally honest, you're coming across as overly dismissive. And that's not constructive to the conversation.
Sorry if that's the perspective but I honestly do not think that 4E is very good design as it relies too much on an overstretched resource (ki).
That's my only intent and obviously that's going to be highly dependent on table and play styles. I just have never had any success with it in the 2-3 attempts I have seen as a a fellow player and DM. I have never played one myself but I have seen it fail on all attempts at play so I may be jaded a bit. I tried very hard as a DM to make it worthwhile for my player but they found the experience frustrating as they just perceived stun as a highly valuable skill that outweighed most options at the levels we played at most (5-9).
Honestly I just do not see the upside for any of the abilities if ki is the cost due to the opportunity cost of your other class features. I am also influenced by the overall design failure in every instance I have seen with the subclass despite valiant efforts on all parts (player and DM). I just find it hard to support as is.
If I do get another player interested I will instead go with my Pact Slot approach and see how it plays and try to report back.
Unbroken Air and Water Whip are both good. As good as Stunning Strike? Depends on the situation. The push/pull/prone might not be as good as a stun but they offer control options stunning strike doesn’t, and at range.
Does the wizard have a Web out, or Druid entangle or spike growth? Push or pull them into it. Or through it in the case of spike growth for 2d4/5feet
Is your party melee and spell casters, no range (like my current party)? Prone gives your melee advantage and no effect on the spell casters really. You can do damage and try to knock prone without pushing or pulling if I’m reading them right. Water whip them to the ground or bring down your Unbroken Air(strike) straight down on their heads and prone them right in front of your barbarian, paladin, or fighter.
in a narrow space like a Hallway and can’t get past your tanks to stunning strike? Unless you have Fangs of the Fire Snake to give you 15’ reach or maybe a bugbear monk you can’t stun. Maybe if the ceiling is high enough you can run up the wall and over the front line but then you’re possibly stuck with no one to help you amongst the enemy mobs.
Seems like there are plenty of opportunities where these disciplines can shine where stunning strike may not be able to.
I am a bit confused on the tanks scenario....you can go through a space of an ally as long as you do not end your movement there. Also if you do Step of the Wind you can triple your jump distance so you could simply jump over people as well.
Stun is better than Web 100% IMO as you do not get extra damage by pushing them in and they get a chance to succeed on the save for the webbing...chances are they either decent at DEX saves or STR saves based on averages. Chances of them being poor in both is relying too much on factors for my tastes but I can see the appeal.
Spike growth is a good example of when it might be better but even if you did manage to move them in (again 1 save vs. 4) that would be 20 points of damage and they are now in the middle of the growth which is pretty good....but again the damage is less than the stun spam and is putting them in the middle overtly better then them not getting a turn at all? Its up to debate and highly dependent on the creature to be honest. Again I think a solid majority of the time it will be better to stun.
Shutting them down completely with no actions/reactions/BA or movement, giving everyone ADV to attack them, and having them auto-fail Dex and Str Saving throws means that wizard will be able to fireball them with an autofail.....hard to pass up.
The scenarios are also fairly niche and might happen once or twice a campaign unless your campaign is exclusively indoors or narrow areas. But if you find yourself in that scenario a lot then it will be something to think about for sure.
Unbroken Air and Water Whip are both good. As good as Stunning Strike? Depends on the situation. The push/pull/prone might not be as good as a stun but they offer control options stunning strike doesn’t, and at range.
Does the wizard have a Web out, or Druid entangle or spike growth? Push or pull them into it. Or through it in the case of spike growth for 2d4/5feet
Is your party melee and spell casters, no range (like my current party)? Prone gives your melee advantage and no effect on the spell casters really. You can do damage and try to knock prone without pushing or pulling if I’m reading them right. Water whip them to the ground or bring down your Unbroken Air(strike) straight down on their heads and prone them right in front of your barbarian, paladin, or fighter.
in a narrow space like a Hallway and can’t get past your tanks to stunning strike? Unless you have Fangs of the Fire Snake to give you 15’ reach or maybe a bugbear monk you can’t stun. Maybe if the ceiling is high enough you can run up the wall and over the front line but then you’re possibly stuck with no one to help you amongst the enemy mobs.
Seems like there are plenty of opportunities where these disciplines can shine where stunning strike may not be able to.
I am a bit confused on the tanks scenario....you can go through a space of an ally as long as you do not end your movement there. Also if you do Step of the Wind you can triple your jump distance so you could simply jump over people as well.
Stun is better than Web 100% IMO as you do not get extra damage by pushing them in and they get a chance to succeed on the save for the webbing...chances are they either decent at DEX saves or STR saves based on averages. Chances of them being poor in both is relying too much on factors for my tastes but I can see the appeal.
Spike growth is a good example of when it might be better but even if you did manage to move them in (again 1 save vs. 4) that would be 20 points of damage and they are now in the middle of the growth which is pretty good....but again the damage is less than the stun spam and is putting them in the middle overtly better then them not getting a turn at all? Its up to debate and highly dependent on the creature to be honest. Again I think a solid majority of the time it will be better to stun.
Shutting them down completely with no actions/reactions/BA or movement, giving everyone ADV to attack them, and having them auto-fail Dex and Str Saving throws means that wizard will be able to fireball them with an autofail.....hard to pass up.
The scenarios are also fairly niche and might happen once or twice a campaign unless your campaign is exclusively indoors or narrow areas. But if you find yourself in that scenario a lot then it will be something to think about for sure.
I find this an interesting conversation and I like hearing other people’s points of view. And I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. I think having more options is a good thing. Like you, I haven’t had the chance to play a 4E monk, let alone any monk so I can’t say what would be the best approach to “fixing“ 4E monk or if it really needs it. Some tweaks might be necessary but I’m not sure if it needs an overhaul or another system to track on top of Ki.
To your points:
Tank scenario: Yes you can pass through an ally’s space, but if the enemy is in the very next space you have to stop and attack. Which you can’t because that space is occupied. I guess some are debating if you actually stop your movement to attack or not so I guess, if the DM rules it’s not actually stopping you can move into an ally’s space attack and move out all in one move not ending there. I don’t think that’s how it works but I could be wrong. Also, wether you jump using step of the Wind or run up a wall and over (9th level+) the end result is the same so I’m not sure the confusion.
Web: was just an example. It could be any hazard wether by an ally’s spell or ability or natural. If, for some reason, you cannot get into melee with the enemy or you just choose not to, stun may not be the best option.
Spike growth: I do think it is good, maybe not as good as a stun. But if your party members are putting out control spells why not work as a team and make use of it. Again, spike growth is just an example. It could be anything that is an AOE control/damage effect (Maelstrom, Blade Barrier, etc). Maybe it’s not optimized but I think it would be much cooler knocking a creature repeatedly into a blade barrier than your ally casting the spell and then one turn later the creature already bypassed it and it’s just eating up concentration and the spell slot gone.
Stun is powerful and if you want to run in and stun them move out so the wizard can fireball it. That’s good too. Hope you have enough movement (usually not an issue with monks) or you’re at least 7th level, if you can’t make it out of the blast, so your evasion protects you.
Currently most of the campaign I’m in takes place indoors. Castles, dungeons, caverns, etc. so the situations are not as niche as you may think. But it all depends on campaign, party makeup, play styles, etc.
Unbroken Air and Water Whip are both good. As good as Stunning Strike? Depends on the situation. The push/pull/prone might not be as good as a stun but they offer control options stunning strike doesn’t, and at range.
Does the wizard have a Web out, or Druid entangle or spike growth? Push or pull them into it. Or through it in the case of spike growth for 2d4/5feet
Is your party melee and spell casters, no range (like my current party)? Prone gives your melee advantage and no effect on the spell casters really. You can do damage and try to knock prone without pushing or pulling if I’m reading them right. Water whip them to the ground or bring down your Unbroken Air(strike) straight down on their heads and prone them right in front of your barbarian, paladin, or fighter.
in a narrow space like a Hallway and can’t get past your tanks to stunning strike? Unless you have Fangs of the Fire Snake to give you 15’ reach or maybe a bugbear monk you can’t stun. Maybe if the ceiling is high enough you can run up the wall and over the front line but then you’re possibly stuck with no one to help you amongst the enemy mobs.
Seems like there are plenty of opportunities where these disciplines can shine where stunning strike may not be able to.
I am a bit confused on the tanks scenario....you can go through a space of an ally as long as you do not end your movement there. Also if you do Step of the Wind you can triple your jump distance so you could simply jump over people as well.
Stun is better than Web 100% IMO as you do not get extra damage by pushing them in and they get a chance to succeed on the save for the webbing...chances are they either decent at DEX saves or STR saves based on averages. Chances of them being poor in both is relying too much on factors for my tastes but I can see the appeal.
Spike growth is a good example of when it might be better but even if you did manage to move them in (again 1 save vs. 4) that would be 20 points of damage and they are now in the middle of the growth which is pretty good....but again the damage is less than the stun spam and is putting them in the middle overtly better then them not getting a turn at all? Its up to debate and highly dependent on the creature to be honest. Again I think a solid majority of the time it will be better to stun.
Shutting them down completely with no actions/reactions/BA or movement, giving everyone ADV to attack them, and having them auto-fail Dex and Str Saving throws means that wizard will be able to fireball them with an autofail.....hard to pass up.
The scenarios are also fairly niche and might happen once or twice a campaign unless your campaign is exclusively indoors or narrow areas. But if you find yourself in that scenario a lot then it will be something to think about for sure.
Stunning is also niche, and this mentality of yours is probably why you're so dissatisfied with the class. I'm honestly curious as to what you tried to help your player because I think you both had blinders on. If all you're going to do is spend ki points for Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, then you're not using ki for anything else. That's "no" to Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. And if they keep passing your saving throw DC, then you're just wasting ki points. Remember, Constitution is a common saving throw. The really big, scary enemies aren't ones you want to waste it on. Yes, waste.
If you're fighting Cryovain from Dragon of Icespire Keep, it has a +7 to his Constitution saving throw. But if you can target Strength, it's +4. If you target Dexterity, it's +3. It's not just about what's the better condition. You want it to work, too. The best you can hope for is a DC of 15, and that assumes 18 Wisdom and 14-16 Dexterity. So, with those numbers, it has a 65% chance of beating that Stunning Strike if you can even get a hit in. That 17 AC is nothing to sneeze at. But if you, instead, turn to Fist of Unbroken Air, not only do you have range but the odds drop to 50/50. And if you have Water Whip, his chances of resisting drop to 45%.
Honestly, all I'm seeing is someone complaining about (A) having more tools in their toolbox and (B) a previous edition of the game. An edition, mind you, that was ludicrously well-balanced.
So what is it you really want? Because warlock pact magic for Way of the Four Elements isn't going to solve your problem. It's just tacking yet another resource mechanic onto a class that doesn't need it. Because all its other subclasses with spellcasting make it work just fine with ki points.
If your save DC is 14 (low I know but this will prove a point....)
And your enemy has a +7 to CON saves.
You attempt to stun them 4 times...what are the chances they are going to save all 4?
24%....thats right they only have a 1 n 4 chance of NOT being stunned.
Hitting all 4 times vs an AC 17 is not given I will admit but you have very high chances of hitting at least twice which puts your odds of them making the save at 49%...which is about in line with your Water Whip and induces a condition that significantly better....I will take those odds!
The nice thing about attacks is that you can get ADV as well which increases your odds overall as well...so working with your party you can get ADV to hit in a variety of ways and drastically increase your chances to stun.
I just think that stun is the best option most of the time...if you are not stunning your not funnin as I say!
Now lets see if you actually attempt make your DC hard!
Lets get crazy and say you face a creature with +13 CON saves.
Your DC will max at DC 19.
Chances of the creature with +13 beating your stun on 4 attacks and DC 19?
56%.....so even a monsterous saving throw makes it almost a coin flip that they will fail....now the average CON save at most levels is below 9....so lets look at that:
30%....if they have a +9 they have a 30% chance of success against your stun...and this is per round! they will fail eventually and be out of action for a full round...its just a matter of time.
And that's 5/6 ki points, so you're okay for one turn and that's it.
And, again, if you can hit it. You're assuming it's on the ground where it can do that when it can fly and strafe overhead, making three attacks at a time before withdrawing.
Well I think its good....I am assuming you are going full bore later on when you have the ki to spare....early on I would not likely go 4 attacks with stun on all. I would likely spend 2 ki and just attack three times. Likely I would still get a stun thanks to lower CON saves earlier on.
Also 5 ki would be the cost for Fist "upcast" as it were...except that is a one and done save. So if they make the STR/DEX save its much more "save or suck" than the stun strategy.
Each has their uses...but I just think STUN has more uses more often by a significant margin.
Remember that against a flying opponent like Cryovain, Fist of Unbroken Air is (1) at range, (2) pushes them further away, and (3) knocks them prone. So if Cryovain is 30 feet above the fray, you have about a 50% chance (depending on save DC) of doing 3d10 base damage, plus pushing it another 20 feet away from you -- up further into the air -- and knocking it prone, forcing it to fall to ground and doing another 5d6 of fall damage.
That's an average 34 damage against a flying enemy. Sure, that's a very ideal situation, but against a flying enemy, your "all Stunning Strike" Monk can... throw a rock dart at it.
Other Monk subclasses and what they can do to this enemy at range (using level five for simple math comparisons): Sun Soul: Maximizing the Radiant Sun Bolt damage would cost 1 ki for up to 4d6 + 12 or 16 (depending on DEX mod), or an average of 26-30 radiant damage. Decent, but that assumes every bolt hits. Kensei: Longbow Kensei can use up to three attacks (thanks to Ki Fueled Attack and Focused Aim) in this situation. That means 1 ki cost for 3d8 + 9 or 12 (pending DEX mod), or no ki cost for Kensei's shot and 2d8 + 2d4 + 6 or 8. That's 1 ki for 22-26 damage, or no ki for 20-22 damage, but again assuming every attack hits. Admittedly, the Kensei has a much longer range on these attacks. Astral Self/Drunken Master/Long Death/Mercy/Open Hand/Shadow: Hope that they have a party member that can help.
No one here is arguing that Four Elements is the best Monk subclass. No one is arguing that FoUA or WW are better than Stunning Strike. It feels like the detractors of Four Elements Monks are acting like we are all saying "This is the best subclass because it gets something better than Stunning Strike" when that is very distinctly not our argument. The argument is that they add a lot of the Monk kit, which is a really strong chassis as is. Is it all great? No. Is it the best a Monk can do? No. Are they severely underrated at this point because everyone claims they are the worst subclass in the game? Absolutely yes.
(That's either Banneret, Berzerker, or Sun Soul.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This is why I think Monk in general suffers from Opportunity Cost....it will be rare that Prone is better in a situation than Simply Stunning the enemy.
For fist its a full action to damage and TRY to push/prone a single enemy. One good save and they avoid it.
So you spend 2 ki and they take on average 16.5 damage and may be Prone....they can stand on their turn (Which maybe next).
VS.
You attack them three times, twice with a spear and once unarmed and try to stun twice.
You spend 2 ki and do average 21.5 damage and they are stunned until the END of their next turn...meaning you put them out completely for at least one round.
In both cases your allies get ADV to hit them...with ranged allies getting ADV for the stunned (which makes stunned better for ranged allies)
Stunned just makes more sense 90% of the time for the ki spent. Repeated saves are the best way to ensure success and Stun Spam works...even with a good CON you will stun then eventually.
The other benefit is that you can potentially target more than 1 creature. If you get lucky and stun the first enemy you can run and stun another in the same turn for the same ki cost.
Overall the fist is nice don't get me wrong....but its no Stun.
The biggest difference is that you can't stun at range. Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air both give the Monk ranged options that it desperately needs, and it even gives additional benefits beyond those via push/pull/prone.
It isn't Stunning, that is correct. It's not as good. But it is situational and does something other Monks can't.
(Also, a pet peeve of mine is the general consensus that Monks are boring because they only Stunning Strike, then when other options outside of Stunning Strike are given they are immediately shot down because they aren't as good as Stunning Strike. I am not saying you are doing this, Optimus, it is just a general observation -- critics of Monks can't have their cake and eat it too, meaning they can't knock Stunning Strike for being boring while also advocating against any strategy that gives combat options beyond Stunning Strike.)
I never said it was, simply that the build you made (which averaged out to a little above 2 average ki) relies on three of the cheapest elemental discipline options which will bias the average of that build towards the lower end of possible costs.
Edit: Removed other continuations of the argument past this point. I am just going to leave it at this correction as I see no benefit of continuing it further past this point.
Edit2: This thread has been very helpful. I have seen things from a few different angles and possible interpretations. I have been convinced by some arguments, others have not changed my original position. I still feel way of the four elements is one of the weakest monk subclasses that could use more corrections to its base form.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
As an elemental discipline, Fist of Unbroken Air has a couple of things going for it. If you're only using it to knock an enemy prone, then you're being short-sighted. That said, its ability to knock a target prone nicely compliments everything else the ability can do.
It's just another tool for controlling the flow of battle. Sure, stunned is a "better" condition to inflict on foes. But it isn't always an option. And even if it is an option, it isn't always the preferable option.
I generally say it takes a lot to be better than a Stun though....simply because of how good it is. Especially if it costs Ki is my point. If it was a free thing they could do per short rest (like if they had Pact Slots like my suggestion!) Then it would be a lot more valuable as its another resource to be able to use.
Its the major design flaw of 4E IMO...they just need another resource pool and it would be considered one of the best monks IMO
Stunning does all this....you don't need to move something if it can't attack...they can just move away. Forced movement is good and this would be the one situation where I could see the fist being better is if you absolutely need something somewhere...this is the 10% of the time its a good option.
If you are relying on a ledge to increase your damage that is highly situational and the amount of times it would come up over Stun is so few as to barely be worth mentioning. Likely less than 0.1% of the time this will come up.
Tasha's lets you use a whip as a dedicated weapon if you get proficiency for it. Also movement speeds for monks means that its rarely an issue getting to a creature....especially since the range on the fist is 30ft anyway...you would hardly ever find yourself out of range to simply run in and stun. Seeing as you can use a BA to dash as a monk then its almost never going to come up. If the distance was 60ft or more I would agree with you...but 30ft is just not enough for this to be a benefit.
Now the other 10% I could see is proning a flying creature...that is a rare thing to be able to do but very worthwhile....the bad thing is flying creatures generally have enough flight speed to be out of 30ft range most of the time but its hard to say...about 10% of the time this will be the better choice.
So overall 80% of the time you are likely better off spending the ki to stun.
How I would make fist better:
1. Make it so you can spend the ki to replace one of your attacks with the fist once per turn. Make the cost higher (3 ki) to balance.
2. Increase distance. 60ft would be amazing as you can prone flying creatures more often.
Now you're just making stuff up. Not only are you pulling statistics out of thin air, but you're blatantly misrepresenting what the ability can do. No, really, where are you even getting 10% of the time from?
Stunning Strike, rather explicitly, cannot do any of the things I just mentioned. It targets Constitution (a common saving throw), must be used with a melee attack, does not forcibly reposition anyone, and it lacks the reach to knock someone out of the air or over a ledge and into a hazard. If you'd rather use Ride the Wind to fly and then try Stunning Strike on a flying opponent, then have at it. But that's even more ki you're burning through.
And, who knows, maybe there are some monks who do both.
It's fine if you think the ability isn't worth it for you. But that doesn't mean it's underpowered. It's not. It's actually quite strong.
I am just spitballing here....I never said it was hard/fast surefire numbers just my ballpark of what I think it would be.
If you are saying you are hitting these situations more often than 10% of the time then I understand how you would find it more valuable...I simply do not and I would guess that most don't see them more than roughly 10% of the time but its obviously hard to say.
Its strong...just not as strong as Stun.
Stun makes most of the advantages of prone/push moot as it does one better...it completely takes the actions and movement away from a creature rather than slowing it down or moving it away.
CON is a common save sure...but spamming stun will basically ensure at least one failure. The fact you can attempt it up to 4 times in a turn if needed just heavily weighs in its favor.
Even spending max Ki on it you are looking at 5 ki for 4 attempts at a stun...even creatures with a a high CON will have a very low chance of success upon repeated saves.
Its just so good its hard to beat most of the time.
Unbroken Air and Water Whip are both good. As good as Stunning Strike? Depends on the situation. The push/pull/prone might not be as good as a stun but they offer control options stunning strike doesn’t, and at range.
Does the wizard have a Web out, or Druid entangle or spike growth? Push or pull them into it. Or through it in the case of spike growth for 2d4/5feet
Is your party melee and spell casters, no range (like my current party)? Prone gives your melee advantage and no effect on the spell casters really. You can do damage and try to knock prone without pushing or pulling if I’m reading them right. Water whip them to the ground or bring down your Unbroken Air(strike) straight down on their heads and prone them right in front of your barbarian, paladin, or fighter.
in a narrow space like a Hallway and can’t get past your tanks to stunning strike? Unless you have Fangs of the Fire Snake to give you 15’ reach or maybe a bugbear monk you can’t stun. Maybe if the ceiling is high enough you can run up the wall and over the front line but then you’re possibly stuck with no one to help you amongst the enemy mobs.
Seems like there are plenty of opportunities where these disciplines can shine where stunning strike may not be able to.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
So spending 4-5 Ki to stun is better than 2 Ki to push or pull and knock prone? Possibly. Or you could spend the same Ki on FoUA or WW and do 5d10 and possibly push/pull/knock prone. Yes, it’s only one chance that could fail compared to the multiple attempts you can try to stun but you are still doing damage even if they save.
It’s a trade off, to be sure. But I can see them all being valuable and gives options
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Spending the 5 ki also gives you 4 attacks which puts is soildily ahead of the 3d10 damage you do....you would spend 5 ki to do 5d10 which is lower than the attacks on average at 5th level:
4 attacks (two with spear, two unarmed) = (2d8+8) + (2d6+8) = 32 average
5d10 = 25 Damage average.
So you are getting more damage, more chances at a debilitating effect (1 vs 4 chances) and the effect is stronger (stun removes actions and allows ANYONE to get advantage on attacks and they autofail certain saves).
So yes if you comparing apples to apples then it is better overall.
It's 27.5 damage, since each d10 averages at 5.5 ((1+10)/2=5.5). But that's splitting hairs and beside the point.
As has been repeated multiple times, they are ranged options for when the monk won't always be able, or even want, to close the distance. So, if not one of those, what would you pick for 3rd level? Fangs of the Fire Snake to change up the damage type of your unarmed strikes? Perpahs you'd like Fist of Four Thunders or Sweeping Cinder Strike for some area of effect damage. Or how about pure utility in Shape the Flowing River?
You're perfectly entitled to have your own opinions on what you think is worth it. No two monks, especially Way of the Four Elements monks, need to play identically. But, if I'm being totally honest, you're coming across as overly dismissive. And that's not constructive to the conversation.
Sorry if that's the perspective but I honestly do not think that 4E is very good design as it relies too much on an overstretched resource (ki).
That's my only intent and obviously that's going to be highly dependent on table and play styles. I just have never had any success with it in the 2-3 attempts I have seen as a a fellow player and DM. I have never played one myself but I have seen it fail on all attempts at play so I may be jaded a bit. I tried very hard as a DM to make it worthwhile for my player but they found the experience frustrating as they just perceived stun as a highly valuable skill that outweighed most options at the levels we played at most (5-9).
Honestly I just do not see the upside for any of the abilities if ki is the cost due to the opportunity cost of your other class features. I am also influenced by the overall design failure in every instance I have seen with the subclass despite valiant efforts on all parts (player and DM). I just find it hard to support as is.
If I do get another player interested I will instead go with my Pact Slot approach and see how it plays and try to report back.
I am a bit confused on the tanks scenario....you can go through a space of an ally as long as you do not end your movement there. Also if you do Step of the Wind you can triple your jump distance so you could simply jump over people as well.
Stun is better than Web 100% IMO as you do not get extra damage by pushing them in and they get a chance to succeed on the save for the webbing...chances are they either decent at DEX saves or STR saves based on averages. Chances of them being poor in both is relying too much on factors for my tastes but I can see the appeal.
Spike growth is a good example of when it might be better but even if you did manage to move them in (again 1 save vs. 4) that would be 20 points of damage and they are now in the middle of the growth which is pretty good....but again the damage is less than the stun spam and is putting them in the middle overtly better then them not getting a turn at all? Its up to debate and highly dependent on the creature to be honest. Again I think a solid majority of the time it will be better to stun.
Shutting them down completely with no actions/reactions/BA or movement, giving everyone ADV to attack them, and having them auto-fail Dex and Str Saving throws means that wizard will be able to fireball them with an autofail.....hard to pass up.
The scenarios are also fairly niche and might happen once or twice a campaign unless your campaign is exclusively indoors or narrow areas. But if you find yourself in that scenario a lot then it will be something to think about for sure.
I find this an interesting conversation and I like hearing other people’s points of view. And I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. I think having more options is a good thing. Like you, I haven’t had the chance to play a 4E monk, let alone any monk so I can’t say what would be the best approach to “fixing“ 4E monk or if it really needs it. Some tweaks might be necessary but I’m not sure if it needs an overhaul or another system to track on top of Ki.
To your points:
Tank scenario: Yes you can pass through an ally’s space, but if the enemy is in the very next space you have to stop and attack. Which you can’t because that space is occupied. I guess some are debating if you actually stop your movement to attack or not so I guess, if the DM rules it’s not actually stopping you can move into an ally’s space attack and move out all in one move not ending there. I don’t think that’s how it works but I could be wrong. Also, wether you jump using step of the Wind or run up a wall and over (9th level+) the end result is the same so I’m not sure the confusion.
Web: was just an example. It could be any hazard wether by an ally’s spell or ability or natural. If, for some reason, you cannot get into melee with the enemy or you just choose not to, stun may not be the best option.
Spike growth: I do think it is good, maybe not as good as a stun. But if your party members are putting out control spells why not work as a team and make use of it. Again, spike growth is just an example. It could be anything that is an AOE control/damage effect (Maelstrom, Blade Barrier, etc). Maybe it’s not optimized but I think it would be much cooler knocking a creature repeatedly into a blade barrier than your ally casting the spell and then one turn later the creature already bypassed it and it’s just eating up concentration and the spell slot gone.
Stun is powerful and if you want to run in and stun them move out so the wizard can fireball it. That’s good too. Hope you have enough movement (usually not an issue with monks) or you’re at least 7th level, if you can’t make it out of the blast, so your evasion protects you.
Currently most of the campaign I’m in takes place indoors. Castles, dungeons, caverns, etc. so the situations are not as niche as you may think. But it all depends on campaign, party makeup, play styles, etc.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Stunning is also niche, and this mentality of yours is probably why you're so dissatisfied with the class. I'm honestly curious as to what you tried to help your player because I think you both had blinders on. If all you're going to do is spend ki points for Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, then you're not using ki for anything else. That's "no" to Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. And if they keep passing your saving throw DC, then you're just wasting ki points. Remember, Constitution is a common saving throw. The really big, scary enemies aren't ones you want to waste it on. Yes, waste.
If you're fighting Cryovain from Dragon of Icespire Keep, it has a +7 to his Constitution saving throw. But if you can target Strength, it's +4. If you target Dexterity, it's +3. It's not just about what's the better condition. You want it to work, too. The best you can hope for is a DC of 15, and that assumes 18 Wisdom and 14-16 Dexterity. So, with those numbers, it has a 65% chance of beating that Stunning Strike if you can even get a hit in. That 17 AC is nothing to sneeze at. But if you, instead, turn to Fist of Unbroken Air, not only do you have range but the odds drop to 50/50. And if you have Water Whip, his chances of resisting drop to 45%.
Honestly, all I'm seeing is someone complaining about (A) having more tools in their toolbox and (B) a previous edition of the game. An edition, mind you, that was ludicrously well-balanced.
So what is it you really want? Because warlock pact magic for Way of the Four Elements isn't going to solve your problem. It's just tacking yet another resource mechanic onto a class that doesn't need it. Because all its other subclasses with spellcasting make it work just fine with ki points.
Lets use your Cryovain example:
If your save DC is 14 (low I know but this will prove a point....)
And your enemy has a +7 to CON saves.
You attempt to stun them 4 times...what are the chances they are going to save all 4?
24%....thats right they only have a 1 n 4 chance of NOT being stunned.
Hitting all 4 times vs an AC 17 is not given I will admit but you have very high chances of hitting at least twice which puts your odds of them making the save at 49%...which is about in line with your Water Whip and induces a condition that significantly better....I will take those odds!
The nice thing about attacks is that you can get ADV as well which increases your odds overall as well...so working with your party you can get ADV to hit in a variety of ways and drastically increase your chances to stun.
I just think that stun is the best option most of the time...if you are not stunning your not funnin as I say!
Now lets see if you actually attempt make your DC hard!
Lets get crazy and say you face a creature with +13 CON saves.
Your DC will max at DC 19.
Chances of the creature with +13 beating your stun on 4 attacks and DC 19?
56%.....so even a monsterous saving throw makes it almost a coin flip that they will fail....now the average CON save at most levels is below 9....so lets look at that:
30%....if they have a +9 they have a 30% chance of success against your stun...and this is per round! they will fail eventually and be out of action for a full round...its just a matter of time.
And that's 5/6 ki points, so you're okay for one turn and that's it.
And, again, if you can hit it. You're assuming it's on the ground where it can do that when it can fly and strafe overhead, making three attacks at a time before withdrawing.
So, at best, you get one hit with your reaction.
[REDACTED]
Well I think its good....I am assuming you are going full bore later on when you have the ki to spare....early on I would not likely go 4 attacks with stun on all. I would likely spend 2 ki and just attack three times. Likely I would still get a stun thanks to lower CON saves earlier on.
Also 5 ki would be the cost for Fist "upcast" as it were...except that is a one and done save. So if they make the STR/DEX save its much more "save or suck" than the stun strategy.
Each has their uses...but I just think STUN has more uses more often by a significant margin.
Remember that against a flying opponent like Cryovain, Fist of Unbroken Air is (1) at range, (2) pushes them further away, and (3) knocks them prone. So if Cryovain is 30 feet above the fray, you have about a 50% chance (depending on save DC) of doing 3d10 base damage, plus pushing it another 20 feet away from you -- up further into the air -- and knocking it prone, forcing it to fall to ground and doing another 5d6 of fall damage.
That's an average 34 damage against a flying enemy. Sure, that's a very ideal situation, but against a flying enemy, your "all Stunning Strike" Monk can... throw a
rockdart at it.Other Monk subclasses and what they can do to this enemy at range (using level five for simple math comparisons):
Sun Soul: Maximizing the Radiant Sun Bolt damage would cost 1 ki for up to 4d6 + 12 or 16 (depending on DEX mod), or an average of 26-30 radiant damage. Decent, but that assumes every bolt hits.
Kensei: Longbow Kensei can use up to three attacks (thanks to Ki Fueled Attack and Focused Aim) in this situation. That means 1 ki cost for 3d8 + 9 or 12 (pending DEX mod), or no ki cost for Kensei's shot and 2d8 + 2d4 + 6 or 8. That's 1 ki for 22-26 damage, or no ki for 20-22 damage, but again assuming every attack hits. Admittedly, the Kensei has a much longer range on these attacks.
Astral Self/Drunken Master/Long Death/Mercy/Open Hand/Shadow: Hope that they have a party member that can help.
No one here is arguing that Four Elements is the best Monk subclass. No one is arguing that FoUA or WW are better than Stunning Strike. It feels like the detractors of Four Elements Monks are acting like we are all saying "This is the best subclass because it gets something better than Stunning Strike" when that is very distinctly not our argument. The argument is that they add a lot of the Monk kit, which is a really strong chassis as is. Is it all great? No. Is it the best a Monk can do? No. Are they severely underrated at this point because everyone claims they are the worst subclass in the game? Absolutely yes.
(That's either Banneret, Berzerker, or Sun Soul.)