I did some analysis, and the Ascendant Dragon Monk really struggles to keep up with a Four Elements Monk using WOTC's assumptions in the DMG to predict things like fights per Short Rest and Long Rest. Here's the breakdown, sticking to cones, since the DMG's algorithms for estimating targets hit in the cone and the line using theater of the mind mean that the cone is always better:
Four Elements (2-6 ki points/use, 15' cone): 3d6 (10.5) for 2 ki points, 4d6 (14) for 3, 5d6 (17.5) for 4, 6d6 (21) for 5, 7d6 (24.5) for 6
Four Elements (3-6 ki points/use, 10' radius sphere): 3d8 (13.5) for 3, 4d8 (18) for 4, 5d8 (22.5) for 5, 6d8 (27) for 6
Four Elements (4-6 ki points/use, 20' radius sphere): 8d6 (28) for 4, 9d6 (31.5) for 5, 10d6 (35) for 6
Four Elements (6 ki points/use, 60' cone): 8d8 (36)
Elemental Discipline progression for this is Sweeping Cinder Strike, Gong of the Summit, Flames of the Phoenix, and Breath of Winter, but you may notice that Gong of the Summit (shatter) isn't really worth the cost, and Flames of the Phoenix just steals the entire show. That's just the way Four Elements monks are. In practice I would expect the L6 power to be Fist of Unbroken Air (which I left out since we're comparing AOEs) and the L17 power to be Wave of Rolling Earth (Wall of Stone).
Ascendant Dragon Monks just win at level 17+ (Cone of Cold is better than Fireball for damage per ki and the Dragon Monk augmented breath is better than Cone of Cold), but between Burning Hands and Fireball, there's no prior level where Ascendant Dragon can keep up.
I did some analysis, and the Ascendant Dragon Monk really struggles to keep up with a Four Elements Monk using WOTC's assumptions in the DMG to predict things like fights per Short Rest and Long Rest. Here's the breakdown, sticking to cones, since the DMG's algorithms for estimating targets hit in the cone and the line using theater of the mind mean that the cone is always better:
Four Elements (2-6 ki points/use, 15' cone): 3d6 (10.5) for 2 ki points, 4d6 (14) for 3, 5d6 (17.5) for 4, 6d6 (21) for 5, 7d6 (24.5) for 6
Four Elements (3-6 ki points/use, 10' radius sphere): 3d8 (13.5) for 3, 4d8 (18) for 4, 5d8 (22.5) for 5, 6d8 (27) for 6
Four Elements (4-6 ki points/use, 20' radius sphere): 8d6 (28) for 4, 9d6 (31.5) for 5, 10d6 (35) for 6
Four Elements (6 ki points/use, 60' cone): 8d8 (36)
Elemental Discipline progression for this is Sweeping Cinder Strike, Gong of the Summit, Flames of the Phoenix, and Breath of Winter, but you may notice that Gong of the Summit (shatter) isn't really worth the cost, and Flames of the Phoenix just steals the entire show. That's just the way Four Elements monks are. In practice I would expect the L6 power to be Fist of Unbroken Air (which I left out since we're comparing AOEs) and the L17 power to be Wave of Rolling Earth (Wall of Stone).
Ascendant Dragon Monks just win at level 17+ (Cone of Cold is better than Fireball for damage per ki and the Dragon Monk augmented breath is better than Cone of Cold), but between Burning Hands and Fireball, there's no prior level where Ascendant Dragon can keep up.
This is a very in-depth analysis, but it seems to list alot of information about each ability without going in depth further.
Lets take level 3 for example. You show that the average damage of a use of ADM breath attack will be less than a use of Burning Hands, which makes it seem like the ADM lags behind 4EM significantly; however, you also show that the ADM gets a cone that is 5ft longer/wider and can be used two more times per day than Burning Hands (which is purely dependent on amount of ki). How many extra targets could the ADM potentially hit with the larger AOE according to the DMG algorithm? How do the free uses affect the overall damage output in a given day?
You state early on that you took into account algorithms for number of enemies hit in a cone and the number of short/long rests per day, but then do not include those values and their impact in your analysis, just the average damage per creature per use.
To be clear, I am not saying that your analysis is incorrect, just that it seems like there was alot of information which was left out for me to fully see the point you are trying to make.
How many extra targets could the ADM potentially hit with the larger AOE according to the DMG algorithm?
0. The DMG algorithm for a cone is ceiling(size/10), which is 2 for both cones. I actually left out this part of the math, leaving it for the reader. But for level 3, the DMG says to assume a 15' and a 20' cone are equivalent. ADMs get a huge leg up at 17 when their "goosed" aoes get bigger - a 60' cone is expected to hit 6 targets.
Here are the expected target counts for the shapes in this post:
ADM line: 1
Burning Hands, Shatter, ADM breath: 2
Augmented ADM Line, ADM exosive fury: 3
Fireball: 4
Cone of Cold, Augmented ADM Cone: 6
How do the free uses affect the overall damage output in a given day?
The DMG says to assume 6-8 combats of 3 rounds each spread across 2 short rests per long rest, so e.g. at level 4 (for round numbers) the ADM can cast 2/rest for ki = 6/day + 2/day = 8/day, while the 4E monk can cast only 6/day. That results in 8*5=40 damage and 6*10.5=63 damage. You would double both values to account for multiple targets, so 80 and 123, respectively.
You state early on that you took into account algorithms for number of enemies hit in a cone and the number of short/long rests per day, but then do not include those values and their impact in your analysis, just the average damage per creature per use.
I can, if they're of interest.
To be clear, I am not saying that your analysis is incorrect, just that it seems like there was alot of information which was left out for me to fully see the point you are trying to make.
I can provide more numbers at more levels if people are interested, for sure.
Here's ADM vs 4E monk (picking the best spell for the 4E monk) at the breakpoints above, total damage per day across multiple targets, and leftover ki is wasted but the 4E monk is allowed to burn leftover ki on upcasting (posting from my phone, so for ease of formatting, syntax is 4E, ADM):
3: 50, 63 (both monks have 1 unspendable per rest)
5: 126, 147 (adm has 1 unspendable)
6: 168, 189
9: 224, 273 (adm has 1 unspendable)
11: 513, 756 (adm has 1 unspendable)
13: 621, 1071 (adm has 1 unspendable)
I don't have 17 handy, because I didn't do out the hard numbers on ADM spending efficiently. I assure you it blows 4E out of the water, though. The dirty numbers I crunched which are likely slightly inefficient are simply 21 augmented breaths per day, which is 2772 to the 4E's 1674.
To be fair, quindraco, did mention using WOTC's published assumptions from the DMG. I'm assuming that includes Targets in Areas of Effect from Chapter 8.
All that aside, what is really interesting is the comparison of WoFE, argued as the worst monk sub-class, to the newest that everyone is trying to squeeze as much out of as possible.
How many extra targets could the ADM potentially hit with the larger AOE according to the DMG algorithm?
0. The DMG algorithm for a cone is ceiling(size/10), which is 2 for both cones. I actually left out this part of the math, leaving it for the reader. But for level 3, the DMG says to assume a 15' and a 20' cone are equivalent. ADMs get a huge leg up at 17 when their "goosed" aoes get bigger - a 60' cone is expected to hit 6 targets.
Here are the expected target counts for the shapes in this post:
ADM line: 1
Burning Hands, Shatter, ADM breath: 2
Augmented ADM Line, ADM exosive fury: 3
Fireball: 4
Cone of Cold, Augmented ADM Cone: 6
How do the free uses affect the overall damage output in a given day?
The DMG says to assume 6-8 combats of 3 rounds each spread across 2 short rests per long rest, so e.g. at level 4 (for round numbers) the ADM can cast 2/rest for ki = 6/day + 2/day = 8/day, while the 4E monk can cast only 6/day. That results in 8*5=40 damage and 6*10.5=63 damage. You would double both values to account for multiple targets, so 80 and 123, respectively.
You state early on that you took into account algorithms for number of enemies hit in a cone and the number of short/long rests per day, but then do not include those values and their impact in your analysis, just the average damage per creature per use.
I can, if they're of interest.
To be clear, I am not saying that your analysis is incorrect, just that it seems like there was alot of information which was left out for me to fully see the point you are trying to make.
I can provide more numbers at more levels if people are interested, for sure.
Here's ADM vs 4E monk (picking the best spell for the 4E monk) at the breakpoints above, total damage per day across multiple targets, and leftover ki is wasted but the 4E monk is allowed to burn leftover ki on upcasting (posting from my phone, so for ease of formatting, syntax is 4E, ADM):
3: 50, 63 (both monks have 1 unspendable per rest)
5: 126, 147 (adm has 1 unspendable)
6: 168, 189
9: 224, 273 (adm has 1 unspendable)
11: 513, 756 (adm has 1 unspendable)
13: 621, 1071 (adm has 1 unspendable)
I don't have 17 handy, because I didn't do out the hard numbers on ADM spending efficiently. I assure you it blows 4E out of the water, though. The dirty numbers I crunched which are likely slightly inefficient are simply 21 augmented breaths per day, which is 2772 to the 4E's 1674.
Appreciate seeing the extra values! I did not have my DMG handy when I wrote the first comment, so I had no way to double check on my own
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How many extra targets could the ADM potentially hit with the larger AOE according to the DMG algorithm?
0. The DMG algorithm for a cone is ceiling(size/10), which is 2 for both cones. I actually left out this part of the math, leaving it for the reader. But for level 3, the DMG says to assume a 15' and a 20' cone are equivalent. ADMs get a huge leg up at 17 when their "goosed" aoes get bigger - a 60' cone is expected to hit 6 targets.
Here are the expected target counts for the shapes in this post:
ADM line: 1
Burning Hands, Shatter, ADM breath: 2
Augmented ADM Line, ADM exosive fury: 3
Fireball: 4
Cone of Cold, Augmented ADM Cone: 6
How do the free uses affect the overall damage output in a given day?
The DMG says to assume 6-8 combats of 3 rounds each spread across 2 short rests per long rest, so e.g. at level 4 (for round numbers) the ADM can cast 2/rest for ki = 6/day + 2/day = 8/day, while the 4E monk can cast only 6/day. That results in 8*5=40 damage and 6*10.5=63 damage. You would double both values to account for multiple targets, so 80 and 123, respectively.
You state early on that you took into account algorithms for number of enemies hit in a cone and the number of short/long rests per day, but then do not include those values and their impact in your analysis, just the average damage per creature per use.
I can, if they're of interest.
To be clear, I am not saying that your analysis is incorrect, just that it seems like there was alot of information which was left out for me to fully see the point you are trying to make.
I can provide more numbers at more levels if people are interested, for sure.
Here's ADM vs 4E monk (picking the best spell for the 4E monk) at the breakpoints above, total damage per day across multiple targets, and leftover ki is wasted but the 4E monk is allowed to burn leftover ki on upcasting (posting from my phone, so for ease of formatting, syntax is 4E, ADM):
3: 50, 63 (both monks have 1 unspendable per rest)
5: 126, 147 (adm has 1 unspendable)
6: 168, 189
9: 224, 273 (adm has 1 unspendable)
11: 513, 756 (adm has 1 unspendable)
13: 621, 1071 (adm has 1 unspendable)
I don't have 17 handy, because I didn't do out the hard numbers on ADM spending efficiently. I assure you it blows 4E out of the water, though. The dirty numbers I crunched which are likely slightly inefficient are simply 21 augmented breaths per day, which is 2772 to the 4E's 1674.
Appreciate seeing the extra values! I did not have my DMG handy when I wrote the first comment, so I had no way to double check on my own
The only thing I noticed...the dragon monk still gets one attack as part of its attack action that isn't factored in here.
The 4E monk has to use an action to cast the spells where as the dragon monk can use the Attack action, do the AOE, get another attack, and even use Flurry of blows as a BA as they used the attack action.
To be fair, quindraco, did mention using WOTC's published assumptions from the DMG. I'm assuming that includes Targets in Areas of Effect from Chapter 8.
All that aside, what is really interesting is the comparison of WoFE, argued as the worst monk sub-class, to the newest that everyone is trying to squeeze as much out of as possible.
IMO its a hair above 4 Elements and tied with Sun Soul
I personally consider the Sun Soul to be the worst Monk subclass. It can't do much of anything better than a 4E or now Ascendant Dragon can. I'd lump 4E, AD, and Kensei into a tier together above Sun Soul, and then rank the other Monk subclasses above them.
I played a sun soul monk to 14th level and it was very underwhelming. I'd actually argue they're slightly worse than 4E monk.
The radiant sun bolt is nice, but really shows how annoying it is because you don't get the bonus attack, although for some reason if you spend a ki you do get 2 additional bolts.
The level 6 burning hands as a bonus action is nice but only came up from 6 through 13 level twice due to enemies not standing next to each other.
The level 11sunburst is crap. Con save for no damage and everything at that level has a good Con score and most have bonuses to the save.
At least with the 4E you've got some choice on what you select as you level and can vary the damage types a bit.
So its worse than i thought, a NEW subclass competes with four elements and sun soul for being the worst years later after its been established how bad those 2 were
THATS A FULL FLURRY TURN ACTION + 1ki flurry all 3 breath weapons replacing the weapon attack and the bonus flurry unarmed attacks (ONLY LIMITED BY PROFICIENCY BONUS) and at lv5 you get Metallic breath weapon.
Not quiet.
Both the dragonborn racial breath weapon and the WoAD have "you can replace one of the attacks". At most you're going to get 2 breath weapon attacks.
Both eh dragonborn and WoAD resets on a long rest, which doesn't fit the monk theme of short rest recovery for abilities.
I thought the ability to change unarmed strike damage on the fly to any elemental type was cool, if you could also grab elemental adapt to bypass any resistances.
That being said, EA states that its triggered when you cast a spell, so I assume you cant combine it with these unarmed strikes of breath weapons.
I thought the ability to change unarmed strike damage on the fly to any elemental type was cool, if you could also grab elemental adapt to bypass any resistances.
It is cool. However game wise it doesn't do much of anything. It lets you deal full damage to creatures resistant to non-magical weapons starting at 3rd level and it works through 5th, but then at 6th level it becomes mostly pointless. If there were more vulnerabilities it may be worthwhile. The entire Draconic Disciple is a flavor ribbon ability.
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I did some analysis, and the Ascendant Dragon Monk really struggles to keep up with a Four Elements Monk using WOTC's assumptions in the DMG to predict things like fights per Short Rest and Long Rest. Here's the breakdown, sticking to cones, since the DMG's algorithms for estimating targets hit in the cone and the line using theater of the mind mean that the cone is always better:
Elemental Discipline progression for this is Sweeping Cinder Strike, Gong of the Summit, Flames of the Phoenix, and Breath of Winter, but you may notice that Gong of the Summit (shatter) isn't really worth the cost, and Flames of the Phoenix just steals the entire show. That's just the way Four Elements monks are. In practice I would expect the L6 power to be Fist of Unbroken Air (which I left out since we're comparing AOEs) and the L17 power to be Wave of Rolling Earth (Wall of Stone).
Ascendant Dragon Monks just win at level 17+ (Cone of Cold is better than Fireball for damage per ki and the Dragon Monk augmented breath is better than Cone of Cold), but between Burning Hands and Fireball, there's no prior level where Ascendant Dragon can keep up.
This is a very in-depth analysis, but it seems to list alot of information about each ability without going in depth further.
Lets take level 3 for example. You show that the average damage of a use of ADM breath attack will be less than a use of Burning Hands, which makes it seem like the ADM lags behind 4EM significantly; however, you also show that the ADM gets a cone that is 5ft longer/wider and can be used two more times per day than Burning Hands (which is purely dependent on amount of ki). How many extra targets could the ADM potentially hit with the larger AOE according to the DMG algorithm? How do the free uses affect the overall damage output in a given day?
You state early on that you took into account algorithms for number of enemies hit in a cone and the number of short/long rests per day, but then do not include those values and their impact in your analysis, just the average damage per creature per use.
To be clear, I am not saying that your analysis is incorrect, just that it seems like there was alot of information which was left out for me to fully see the point you are trying to make.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I can, if they're of interest.
I can provide more numbers at more levels if people are interested, for sure.
Here's ADM vs 4E monk (picking the best spell for the 4E monk) at the breakpoints above, total damage per day across multiple targets, and leftover ki is wasted but the 4E monk is allowed to burn leftover ki on upcasting (posting from my phone, so for ease of formatting, syntax is 4E, ADM):
3: 50, 63 (both monks have 1 unspendable per rest)
5: 126, 147 (adm has 1 unspendable)
6: 168, 189
9: 224, 273 (adm has 1 unspendable)
11: 513, 756 (adm has 1 unspendable)
13: 621, 1071 (adm has 1 unspendable)
I don't have 17 handy, because I didn't do out the hard numbers on ADM spending efficiently. I assure you it blows 4E out of the water, though. The dirty numbers I crunched which are likely slightly inefficient are simply 21 augmented breaths per day, which is 2772 to the 4E's 1674.
To be fair, quindraco, did mention using WOTC's published assumptions from the DMG. I'm assuming that includes Targets in Areas of Effect from Chapter 8.
All that aside, what is really interesting is the comparison of WoFE, argued as the worst monk sub-class, to the newest that everyone is trying to squeeze as much out of as possible.
Appreciate seeing the extra values! I did not have my DMG handy when I wrote the first comment, so I had no way to double check on my own
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Hot.
Garbage.
IMO its a hair above 4 Elements and tied with Sun Soul
The only thing I noticed...the dragon monk still gets one attack as part of its attack action that isn't factored in here.
The 4E monk has to use an action to cast the spells where as the dragon monk can use the Attack action, do the AOE, get another attack, and even use Flurry of blows as a BA as they used the attack action.
I personally consider the Sun Soul to be the worst Monk subclass. It can't do much of anything better than a 4E or now Ascendant Dragon can. I'd lump 4E, AD, and Kensei into a tier together above Sun Soul, and then rank the other Monk subclasses above them.
I played a sun soul monk to 14th level and it was very underwhelming. I'd actually argue they're slightly worse than 4E monk.
The radiant sun bolt is nice, but really shows how annoying it is because you don't get the bonus attack, although for some reason if you spend a ki you do get 2 additional bolts.
The level 6 burning hands as a bonus action is nice but only came up from 6 through 13 level twice due to enemies not standing next to each other.
The level 11sunburst is crap. Con save for no damage and everything at that level has a good Con score and most have bonuses to the save.
At least with the 4E you've got some choice on what you select as you level and can vary the damage types a bit.
So its worse than i thought, a NEW subclass competes with four elements and sun soul for being the worst years later after its been established how bad those 2 were
Not quiet.
Both the dragonborn racial breath weapon and the WoAD have "you can replace one of the attacks". At most you're going to get 2 breath weapon attacks.
Both eh dragonborn and WoAD resets on a long rest, which doesn't fit the monk theme of short rest recovery for abilities.
I thought the ability to change unarmed strike damage on the fly to any elemental type was cool, if you could also grab elemental adapt to bypass any resistances.
That being said, EA states that its triggered when you cast a spell, so I assume you cant combine it with these unarmed strikes of breath weapons.
is that correct?
It is cool. However game wise it doesn't do much of anything. It lets you deal full damage to creatures resistant to non-magical weapons starting at 3rd level and it works through 5th, but then at 6th level it becomes mostly pointless. If there were more vulnerabilities it may be worthwhile. The entire Draconic Disciple is a flavor ribbon ability.