Arguably, Monks need that ASI sooner than Rogues since Rogues can Disengage and Dash , all without spending any limited resources. Level 1 to 3 are easily the worst Monk levels: too few resources to do much besides survive and no access to Stun or ability to run up walls. So they have a more basic interest in an early ASI. At level 10, it's a bit late.
I'd actually argue the opposite; my experience has always been that Monks start out strong and it's the later levels where they aren't seeing as much progress. I've never felt I wasn't holding my own just fine through levels 1 to 9-ish. And by that point you have a good amount of Ki to work with so the later levels aren't that bad either, they're just a bit lacking compared to what other martials start getting for higher level play.
Interestingly, all the Monks I've seen played from Level 1-3 who didn't have some kind of mobility gimmick like the Tabaxi, or a free AC boost like the Tortle, bit the dust really quick if they didn't dedicate most of their Ki to Patient Defense or spend their actions using Dodge. I know that this is partly a party composition issue as well. If the party already has 2 or more tanks, that takes the pressure off the Monk. But in very small parties (2 or 3) or where the highest Hit Die in the party is a d8, the base Monk is put in a bad position at low levels.
I've never played above Level 10 so far, thus I can't gauge from experience how strong or weak Monks are at high level play, but based on what I've read and compared, I do agree that most Monk subclasses get kind of stale and can't keep up damage-wise.
I am generally disappointed with Monk subclasses before Tasha's. Aside from the Open Hand and Kensei, Monk subclasses in the PHB and Xanathar's seem to have suffer some kind of arrested development when compared to other martial subclasses past Level 10.
Arguably, Monks need that ASI sooner than Rogues since Rogues can Disengage and Dash , all without spending any limited resources. Level 1 to 3 are easily the worst Monk levels: too few resources to do much besides survive and no access to Stun or ability to run up walls. So they have a more basic interest in an early ASI. At level 10, it's a bit late.
I'd actually argue the opposite; my experience has always been that Monks start out strong and it's the later levels where they aren't seeing as much progress. I've never felt I wasn't holding my own just fine through levels 1 to 9-ish. And by that point you have a good amount of Ki to work with so the later levels aren't that bad either, they're just a bit lacking compared to what other martials start getting for higher level play.
Interestingly, all the Monks I've seen played from Level 1-3 who didn't have some kind of mobility gimmick like the Tabaxi, or a free AC boost like the Tortle, bit the dust really quick if they didn't dedicate most of their Ki to Patient Defense or spend their actions using Dodge. I know that this is partly a party composition issue as well. If the party already has 2 or more tanks, that takes the pressure off the Monk. But in very small parties (2 or 3) or where the highest Hit Die in the party is a d8, the base Monk is put in a bad position at low levels.
I've never played above Level 10 so far, thus I can't gauge from experience how strong or weak Monks are at high level play, but based on what I've read and compared, I do agree that most Monk subclasses get kind of stale and can't keep up damage-wise.
I am generally disappointed with Monk subclasses before Tasha's. Aside from the Open Hand and Kensei, Monk subclasses in the PHB and Xanathar's seem to have suffer some kind of arrested development when compared to other martial subclasses past Level 10.
I mostly agree....
I think the Dragon monk was a swing and a Miss as well.
It had some unique features but they mostly removed them and made them less interesting/overlap with existing features.
Personally I think the Monk doesn't really need much at lower levels; the class actually starts out quite strong, but its core progression slows over time. That said, keep in mind that increased Ki points means a Monk can be using Ki every round without much concern for running out.
I don't know about Step of the Wind not costing Ki as the Monk is already fast; your average double-dashing Rogue can do 90 feet in a turn, but your average Monk can single-dash up to 80 feet from 2nd level, and only gets faster from there; when we double dash we make the Rogue look like an out of shape gelatinous cube.
Personally my main fixes would be:
Allow Unarmored Defence to use either Dexterity or Strength (to allow for Strength based Monks).
Change save proficiencies from STR/DEX to DEX/WIS. This is a boost since it would mean two common proficiencies, but gives some inbuilt defence against charm/fear from an earlier level, to be built upon by other features for near immunity.
Allow the use of a glaive or pike with Dedicated Weapon and Kensei Weapon; this allows for better use of Polearm Expert, but with the built-in tradeoff being that you may be out of range to use Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows etc. Only the Kensei would be getting proficiency with their feature though, other Monks would need to obtain somehow (training, feat etc.).
Martial Arts damage should increase to d8 at 9th level, d10 at 13th and d12 at 17th (increases every four levels rather than weirdly slowing down).
When you use Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows, you may replace one unarmed strike with an attacking using an off-hand weapon (as for two-weapon fighting). Given the light requirement and the fact that martial arts die will eliminate any damage difference this is only a minor boost without magic weapons, but makes a twin weapon Monk more viable.
Diamond Soul should be moved to 9th level alongside the unarmored movement improvement, but initially only granting INT/CHA save proficiency. At 14th it would level up to all save proficiencies with the 1 Ki re-rolls as normal.
Clarify Stillness of Mind. The way I believe it's supposed to work is that the Monk needs to be aware they are charmed, or that something is wrong, before they can consciously take an action to end it, but far too many players/DMs treat it as an action to just "nope" ever being charmed/frightened. It should never be that easy, as the whole reason charm/fear are dangerous is because they override your character's normal behaviour (and characters don't even know they are charmed).
Have Purity of Body function like Stillness of Mind; i.e- action to clear one disease, poison or the poisoned condition. This action can be used when incapacitated (for the nastier poisons).
Add an Ability Score Increase at 10th level (this is why Purity of Body is no longer full immunity).
Add a new ability at 13th level called Counterstrike or such; when an enemy misses you with a melee attack you may spend one Ki to make an Unarmed Strike against them as a reaction. This keeps Monk attacks scaling (up to 5 in a round) and combos well with Patient Defence which normally trades attacks for defence, plus since it makes you less likely to be hit (great on a relatively squishy d8 hit die martial) it would make the attack more likely for 3 in a round even while in patient defence mode.
Add an Improved Purity of Body at 15th level (to go alongside the usually pointless Timeless Body) expanding Purity of Body to also allow removing the blinded*, deafened*, paralyzed or stunned condition when it affects the player directly (i.e- can't cancel blindness/deafness caused by a lingering area effect).
I know it looks like a lot, but really the Monk is IMO fine in lower tiers of play, it's the higher tiers that most players don't make it to where they have a lot of features that feel like wasted levels since they're just too situational. For example, many campaigns will never have you worry about ageing, and it's usually not that hard to get food and water so Timeless Body is a bit weird as the only feature for an entire level.
In general what WotC need to be looking at for each class is ensuring that every level improves the class' combat potential. Once they've done that they can then scatter in out-of-combat abilities to ensure everyone has some things they can be good at when not fighting.
Blue indicates additions to my original post.
THIS!^
And;
Flurry of Blows should be an addtional attack that doesnt use up a bonus action, still needs the requirement of making an attack action and spending Ki, but frees up the bonus action for other options.
Alternativley make Flurry of Blows follow Proficiency bonus scaling, allowing a high level Monk to actually do a 7 page Ora Ora Ora.
The bonus action unarmed strike should function more like Ki Fueled attack,I.E as long as you spent KI points to do something you can bonus action unarmed strike, this would synergize well if flurry blows didn't use a bonus action, increasing the amount of attacks from 4 to 5.
Allow Martial Arts to work with Medium armor and under, this allows Monks with low Wis and Dex to still have survivibilty.
Turn Paitent Defense into Defensive Dualist, fold in the dodge action into step of the wind.
Deflect Missles should be backwards, you spend Ki points to catch the projectile and throwing it back should be free.
A Ki feature that lets you reduce an enemy's saving throw roll.
Bump Perfect Self to give 10 Ki points instead of 4.
Remove the Heavy or Special restriction for Kensei Monks.
Give Four Elements Monk Cantrips.(Gust, Thunderclap, Ray of Frost, Produce Flame, Mold Earth and Thornwhip)
Let Long Death, Kensei and Shadow Monks utilize Flurry of Blows in a unique way like the rest of the subclasses.
Arguably, Monks need that ASI sooner than Rogues since Rogues can Disengage and Dash , all without spending any limited resources. Level 1 to 3 are easily the worst Monk levels: too few resources to do much besides survive and no access to Stun or ability to run up walls. So they have a more basic interest in an early ASI. At level 10, it's a bit late.
I'd actually argue the opposite; my experience has always been that Monks start out strong and it's the later levels where they aren't seeing as much progress. I've never felt I wasn't holding my own just fine through levels 1 to 9-ish. And by that point you have a good amount of Ki to work with so the later levels aren't that bad either, they're just a bit lacking compared to what other martials start getting for higher level play.
Sure, we have to spend Ki to use various abilities, but they're extremely good abilities. Patient Defence is arguably one of the best defensive abilities in the game, and Flurry of Blows will let you put out more damage than a Rogue can at earlier levels.
I've never particularly had a problem with Ki to Dash because we get increased speed at level 2; Rogues need their free double Dash just to keep up, and they're also more likely to want to Disengage than the Monk in order to later Hide, though I could maybe see an argument for free disengage purely because often I just use Patient Defence instead since it means opportunity attack(s) are likely to miss anyway, and it lasts until the start of your next turn (so applies to regular enemy attacks as well).
I would say, then, that Monks should at least get to Disengage for free at the cost of a Bonus action.
Also, I've never seen any argument for why Monks should not get d10 HD when ranged Rangers and ranged Fighters do. How are you tougher than a fighting Monk if you spend most of your career 35 to 100 feet away from your target?
At least half of the Subclasses themselves need to be reworked. At this point, I'm almost convinced that the Devs either hate Monks or barely playtest them. At high levels, the Sun Soul and Drunken Master varieties are a joke. The stuff they get in no way compares to the powers that other martial classes get either much earlier or at equivalent levels.
Not even mentioning all the resource-management issues and lack of variety in the 4 Elements Monks.
Arguably, Monks need that ASI sooner than Rogues since Rogues can Disengage and Dash , all without spending any limited resources. Level 1 to 3 are easily the worst Monk levels: too few resources to do much besides survive and no access to Stun or ability to run up walls. So they have a more basic interest in an early ASI. At level 10, it's a bit late.
I'd actually argue the opposite; my experience has always been that Monks start out strong and it's the later levels where they aren't seeing as much progress. I've never felt I wasn't holding my own just fine through levels 1 to 9-ish. And by that point you have a good amount of Ki to work with so the later levels aren't that bad either, they're just a bit lacking compared to what other martials start getting for higher level play.
Sure, we have to spend Ki to use various abilities, but they're extremely good abilities. Patient Defence is arguably one of the best defensive abilities in the game, and Flurry of Blows will let you put out more damage than a Rogue can at earlier levels.
I've never particularly had a problem with Ki to Dash because we get increased speed at level 2; Rogues need their free double Dash just to keep up, and they're also more likely to want to Disengage than the Monk in order to later Hide, though I could maybe see an argument for free disengage purely because often I just use Patient Defence instead since it means opportunity attack(s) are likely to miss anyway, and it lasts until the start of your next turn (so applies to regular enemy attacks as well).
I would say, then, that Monks should at least get to Disengage for free at the cost of a Bonus action.
Also, I've never seen any argument for why Monks should not get d10 HD when ranged Rangers and ranged Fighters do. How are you tougher than a fighting Monk if you spend most of your career 35 to 100 feet away from your target?
I think the rogue comparison is even more egregious when you factor in that sneak attack never costs resources unlike fury of blows.
I would say, then, that Monks should at least get to Disengage for free at the cost of a Bonus action.
Also, I've never seen any argument for why Monks should not get d10 HD when ranged Rangers and ranged Fighters do. How are you tougher than a fighting Monk if you spend most of your career 35 to 100 feet away from your target?
I think the rogue comparison is even more egregious when you factor in that sneak attack never costs resources unlike fury of blows.
Well, there's a reason why powergamers tend to avoid playing Monk.
However, I'm not against Flurry of Blows costing Ki. Sneak Attack use requires one of several factors to be applicable. If the Rogue misses, no Sneak Attack. If there's no advantage or an ally within 5 feet, no Sneak Attack. Flurry of Blows can be used at any time against a melee opponent. I do agree with Haravikk that the scaling of damage on the Martial Arts die is a bit slow.
It would also make sense if the devs provided a few more Ki points. I think someone on another forum suggest starting with your WIS modifier amount of additional Ki points. That allows Monks to Flurry, Patient Defense, etc. more at early levels when they're really quite vulnerable without a party tank.
yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Although, after Tashas any rogue can get advantage as a bonus action, so its still a resource issue that the monk is losing out on.
I've experimented with giving monks extra Ki but I always seem to run into the issue of multiclassing.
Giving monks +WIS ki means a level 2 dip into monk on a Ranger/Druid for that sweet 7 uses of Patient Defense per short rest is a lot.
On a monk Patient Defense is fine because it's balanced around having to compete with Flurry of Blows and monks overall not the best.
There's also the whole thing with PHB monks actually being perfectly fine at low levels which is also a bothersome. Even at level 2 you still get around the same uses of ki than spellcasters get of spell slots even assuming zero short rests (And at low levels patient defense is definitely considerable to a first level spell, flurry of blows 2d4 + ~6 is also comparable).
It's only after Stunning Strike is when they go bad (because WoTC thought stunning strike by itself was enough to carry monks to tier 3/4, which is clearly not the case)
edit: oh yeah this isn't a reply to anyone in particular just sharing some thoughts
I've experimented with giving monks extra Ki but I always seem to run into the issue of multiclassing.
Giving monks +WIS ki means a level 2 dip into monk on a Ranger/Druid for that sweet 7 uses of Patient Defense per short rest is a lot.
On a monk Patient Defense is fine because it's balanced around having to compete with Flurry of Blows and monks overall not the best.
There's also the whole thing with PHB monks actually being perfectly fine at low levels which is also a bothersome. Even at level 2 you still get around the same uses of ki than spellcasters get of spell slots even assuming zero short rests (And at low levels patient defense is definitely considerable to a first level spell, flurry of blows 2d4 + ~6 is also comparable).
It's only after Stunning Strike is when they go bad (because WoTC thought stunning strike by itself was enough to carry monks to tier 3/4, which is clearly not the case)
I don't disagree with you that boosting the # of Ki points changes the incentive to Multi-class. On the other hand, I've seen Monks in action at low levels. Not at all impressive compared to other Martial classes, esp. if the party is small or lacks a consistent melee "tank" to soak up most of the blows. This is why I suggested that Monks might, instead of more Ki points, get d10 HD.
I've experimented with giving monks extra Ki but I always seem to run into the issue of multiclassing.
Giving monks +WIS ki means a level 2 dip into monk on a Ranger/Druid for that sweet 7 uses of Patient Defense per short rest is a lot.
On a monk Patient Defense is fine because it's balanced around having to compete with Flurry of Blows and monks overall not the best.
There's also the whole thing with PHB monks actually being perfectly fine at low levels which is also a bothersome. Even at level 2 you still get around the same uses of ki than spellcasters get of spell slots even assuming zero short rests (And at low levels patient defense is definitely considerable to a first level spell, flurry of blows 2d4 + ~6 is also comparable).
It's only after Stunning Strike is when they go bad (because WoTC thought stunning strike by itself was enough to carry monks to tier 3/4, which is clearly not the case)
edit: oh yeah this isn't a reply to anyone in particular just sharing some thoughts
I mean if that's the only issue ... don't increase it via a simple ability modifier and instead via levels? The Monk already has a KI points column that increases as you put levels into it. Just modifier that lol
Or just let it happen....
Monk is already one class that almost never Multi-classes because it's synergy is so poor.
If a full caster wants to delay spell leveling for more defense then imo it's really not that big of deal.
It's frankly easier to deal with Patient Defense then 5th level spells.
I've experimented with giving monks extra Ki but I always seem to run into the issue of multiclassing.
Giving monks +WIS ki means a level 2 dip into monk on a Ranger/Druid for that sweet 7 uses of Patient Defense per short rest is a lot.
On a monk Patient Defense is fine because it's balanced around having to compete with Flurry of Blows and monks overall not the best.
There's also the whole thing with PHB monks actually being perfectly fine at low levels which is also a bothersome. Even at level 2 you still get around the same uses of ki than spellcasters get of spell slots even assuming zero short rests (And at low levels patient defense is definitely considerable to a first level spell, flurry of blows 2d4 + ~6 is also comparable).
It's only after Stunning Strike is when they go bad (because WoTC thought stunning strike by itself was enough to carry monks to tier 3/4, which is clearly not the case)
edit: oh yeah this isn't a reply to anyone in particular just sharing some thoughts
I mean if that's the only issue ... don't increase it via a simple ability modifier and instead via levels? The Monk already has a KI points column that increases as you put levels into it. Just modifier that lol
Or just let it happen....
Monk is already one class that almost never Multi-classes because it's synergy is so poor.
If a full caster wants to delay spell leveling for more defense then imo it's really not that big of deal.
It's frankly easier to deal with Patient Defense then 5th level spells.
I think the bigger reason why players almost never multiclass with monk is less due to synergy and more to do that everything costs ki and delaying ki progression hurts more than delaying spell progression, or sneak attack progression, etc... There are quite a few monk/x multiclass threads in the forums, and a common theme in replies is "but that delays Ki points" Monks do, however, seem to make poor "dips" in multiclassing. I'm not sure what changes you would make to increase synergy, but one thing I see a lot is making unarmed strikes and monk weapons finesse. They already are that, just not in name, but they want the change so they can sneak attack with their fist and feet or make Defensive Duelist feat a better option (only usable with dagger and shortsword currently, on core monk). It would synergize better, but why change a monk feature in incentivize you not to be a monk?
Personally, I'm not too concerned on changing the monk to make it more palatable for a completely optional game feature (multiclassing) and more concerned that it is a strong stand alone class that people wouldn't want to MC out of because it is so good.
And multiclassing is a whole different issue I have with 5E. I like multiclassing, but don't like how some classes are front loaded and exploitable dips. But that's another conversation for another thread.
Another thing I don't understand, and I guess this is aimed more at Haravikk, the comparing Rogue to Monk when it comes to a no ki cost Step of the Wind? I think it's fine if the monk can dash or double dash circles around the rogue. Rogues (the core class) have nothing better to do with their bonus action anyway. Monks have their BA unarmed strike or FoB that they are sacrificing, in addition to ki cost, to use this feature.
Would allowing the use of Monk weapons, as part of the Bonus Action attack be too much? This would be a boost to tier 1 & 2 weapon using monks. And if you choose to use FoB, it would still be unarmed. I don't know, just thinking of different things that might help the monk class as a whole.
Another thing I don't understand, and I guess this is aimed more at Haravikk, the comparing Rogue to Monk when it comes to a no ki cost Step of the Wind? I think it's fine if the monk can dash or double dash circles around the rogue. Rogues (the core class) have nothing better to do with their bonus action anyway. Monks have their BA unarmed strike or FoB that they are sacrificing, in addition to ki cost, to use this feature.
My point was mainly that you shouldn't compare Step of the Wind to Rogue on the basis of "but Cunning Action Dash is free", because Cunning Action only really brings the Rogue to about the same speed that the Monk can do already so it's not a great point of comparison, and Rogues are a class where disengaging is more obviously a core part of how they're supposed to play.
I could still see making the Disengage specifically zero Ki, but on the basis that Patient Defence can be used to achieve basically the same thing (attacks of opportunity probably won't hit you) but also boosts your defence against all attacks, so it's nearly always the better choice unless you absolutely cannot take one more hit.
I'm more mixed on giving us the free double dash, because we get so much added speed that we can effectively dash for free (compared to other classes) just by using our regular movement. This is why the comparison to Rogue is problematic, because your average Rogue moves 30 feet, dashes 60 feet and double dashes 90 feet; your average Monk is 33% faster from 2nd level, or 50% faster from 6th.
Put another way; your typical Rogue can sustain about 10 mph, your full speed (non-Aarakocra) Monk can sustain 13.6 mph with only single dashing, they'd be sustaining 20 mph all day, every day with a free triple dash!
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Without spending resources rogue is going to be faster most of the time because of the free cost of cunning action for most people.
I say this because the 10ft speed increases make monk base speed 40ft at level 2 (assuming medium PC) save then 50ft at level 9.
Rogue is going to be able to hit 60 ft at level 2 with no resource burn. If they pick up mobile they are step in step with monk until level 9.
Since 90% of campaigns end at that point most people won't see the speed difference between the two as they really don't want to be spending ki on a dash most of the time.
I think it should be a dash/disengage as a single ki or one of the two for free
I say this because the 10ft speed increases make monk base speed 40ft at level 2 (assuming medium PC) save then 50ft at level 9.
Even with only the 10 foot speed increase the Monk will do 80 feet in a turn with a single dash to the Rogue's 90 feet using both a their action and bonus action. To me the gap to close is the fact that the Rogue can dash as a bonus action only for 60 feet, and still keep their full action free.
I think at most the Monk should only get a free bonus action dash if they didn't dash using their action; this way they can do 80 feet per turn using just their bonus action and still attack afterwards, without any Ki cost, even so I'm fine paying 1 Ki for that. It's the free double-dashing that I have the issue with, as you're talking 120 feet per turn movement from 2nd level, sustainable all day every day which seems excessive IMO, especially since it scales all the way up to 240 feet per turn on an average Monk, which is faster than your average dragon can fly.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I say this because the 10ft speed increases make monk base speed 40ft at level 2 (assuming medium PC) save then 50ft at level 9.
Even with only the 10 foot speed increase the Monk will do 80 feet in a turn with a single dash to the Rogue's 90 feet using both a their action and bonus action. To me the gap to close is the fact that the Rogue can dash as a bonus action only for 60 feet, and still keep their full action free.
I think at most the Monk should only get a free bonus action dash if they didn't dash using their action; this way they can do 80 feet per turn using just their bonus action and still attack afterwards, without any Ki cost, even so I'm fine paying 1 Ki for that. It's the free double-dashing that I have the issue with, as you're talking 120 feet per turn movement from 2nd level, sustainable all day every day which seems excessive IMO, especially since it scales all the way up to 240 feet per turn on an average Monk, which is faster than your average dragon can fly.
Ah fair... Yeah just the BA dash would be enough for me as well.
Double dash would be pretty crazy....
I think if you paired that with a 1ki cost dash/disengage combo then you really have something.
I say this because the 10ft speed increases make monk base speed 40ft at level 2 (assuming medium PC) save then 50ft at level 9.
Even with only the 10 foot speed increase the Monk will do 80 feet in a turn with a single dash to the Rogue's 90 feet using both a their action and bonus action. To me the gap to close is the fact that the Rogue can dash as a bonus action only for 60 feet, and still keep their full action free.
I think at most the Monk should only get a free bonus action dash if they didn't dash using their action; this way they can do 80 feet per turn using just their bonus action and still attack afterwards, without any Ki cost, even so I'm fine paying 1 Ki for that. It's the free double-dashing that I have the issue with, as you're talking 120 feet per turn movement from 2nd level, sustainable all day every day which seems excessive IMO, especially since it scales all the way up to 240 feet per turn on an average Monk, which is faster than your average dragon can fly.
Ah fair... Yeah just the BA dash would be enough for me as well.
Double dash would be pretty crazy....
I think if you paired that with a 1ki cost dash/disengage combo then you really have something.
Ok, I see what you two are saying. So if Step of the Wind was the following, it would be more in line with what you are saying?
Step of the Wind
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn. Alternatively, if you do not use your action to Dash, you can take the Dash action as a bonus action at no ki cost.
I say this because the 10ft speed increases make monk base speed 40ft at level 2 (assuming medium PC) save then 50ft at level 9.
Even with only the 10 foot speed increase the Monk will do 80 feet in a turn with a single dash to the Rogue's 90 feet using both a their action and bonus action. To me the gap to close is the fact that the Rogue can dash as a bonus action only for 60 feet, and still keep their full action free.
I think at most the Monk should only get a free bonus action dash if they didn't dash using their action; this way they can do 80 feet per turn using just their bonus action and still attack afterwards, without any Ki cost, even so I'm fine paying 1 Ki for that. It's the free double-dashing that I have the issue with, as you're talking 120 feet per turn movement from 2nd level, sustainable all day every day which seems excessive IMO, especially since it scales all the way up to 240 feet per turn on an average Monk, which is faster than your average dragon can fly.
Ah fair... Yeah just the BA dash would be enough for me as well.
Double dash would be pretty crazy....
I think if you paired that with a 1ki cost dash/disengage combo then you really have something.
Ok, I see what you two are saying. So if Step of the Wind was the following, it would be more in line with what you are saying?
Step of the Wind
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn. Alternatively, if you do not use your action to Dash, you can take the Dash action as a bonus action at no ki cost.
Pretty close to what I had in in mind....I was actually saying you would spend 1 ki and get the benefit of both but I like your version as well!
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes. Spell slots in contrast can be interchanged for almost all caster classes in contrast. The spell slot thing is design philosophy choice, one signals a big difference from 2nd edition. However, the devs didn't know how to add Ki to other classes, thus we are stuck with a class that feels a bit disjointed once we start mixing it up with most others. This really puts most Monks at a disadvantage when multi-classing.
The point being that Monks would need a major redesign to "play nice" with other classes for MC purposes.
Interestingly, all the Monks I've seen played from Level 1-3 who didn't have some kind of mobility gimmick like the Tabaxi, or a free AC boost like the Tortle, bit the dust really quick if they didn't dedicate most of their Ki to Patient Defense or spend their actions using Dodge. I know that this is partly a party composition issue as well. If the party already has 2 or more tanks, that takes the pressure off the Monk. But in very small parties (2 or 3) or where the highest Hit Die in the party is a d8, the base Monk is put in a bad position at low levels.
I've never played above Level 10 so far, thus I can't gauge from experience how strong or weak Monks are at high level play, but based on what I've read and compared, I do agree that most Monk subclasses get kind of stale and can't keep up damage-wise.
I am generally disappointed with Monk subclasses before Tasha's. Aside from the Open Hand and Kensei, Monk subclasses in the PHB and Xanathar's seem to have suffer some kind of arrested development when compared to other martial subclasses past Level 10.
I mostly agree....
I think the Dragon monk was a swing and a Miss as well.
It had some unique features but they mostly removed them and made them less interesting/overlap with existing features.
THIS!^
And;
I would say, then, that Monks should at least get to Disengage for free at the cost of a Bonus action.
Also, I've never seen any argument for why Monks should not get d10 HD when ranged Rangers and ranged Fighters do. How are you tougher than a fighting Monk if you spend most of your career 35 to 100 feet away from your target?
At least half of the Subclasses themselves need to be reworked. At this point, I'm almost convinced that the Devs either hate Monks or barely playtest them. At high levels, the Sun Soul and Drunken Master varieties are a joke. The stuff they get in no way compares to the powers that other martial classes get either much earlier or at equivalent levels.
Not even mentioning all the resource-management issues and lack of variety in the 4 Elements Monks.
I think the rogue comparison is even more egregious when you factor in that sneak attack never costs resources unlike fury of blows.
Well, there's a reason why powergamers tend to avoid playing Monk.
However, I'm not against Flurry of Blows costing Ki. Sneak Attack use requires one of several factors to be applicable. If the Rogue misses, no Sneak Attack. If there's no advantage or an ally within 5 feet, no Sneak Attack. Flurry of Blows can be used at any time against a melee opponent. I do agree with Haravikk that the scaling of damage on the Martial Arts die is a bit slow.
It would also make sense if the devs provided a few more Ki points. I think someone on another forum suggest starting with your WIS modifier amount of additional Ki points. That allows Monks to Flurry, Patient Defense, etc. more at early levels when they're really quite vulnerable without a party tank.
yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Although, after Tashas any rogue can get advantage as a bonus action, so its still a resource issue that the monk is losing out on.
I've experimented with giving monks extra Ki but I always seem to run into the issue of multiclassing.
Giving monks +WIS ki means a level 2 dip into monk on a Ranger/Druid for that sweet 7 uses of Patient Defense per short rest is a lot.
On a monk Patient Defense is fine because it's balanced around having to compete with Flurry of Blows and monks overall not the best.
There's also the whole thing with PHB monks actually being perfectly fine at low levels which is also a bothersome. Even at level 2 you still get around the same uses of ki than spellcasters get of spell slots even assuming zero short rests (And at low levels patient defense is definitely considerable to a first level spell, flurry of blows 2d4 + ~6 is also comparable).
It's only after Stunning Strike is when they go bad (because WoTC thought stunning strike by itself was enough to carry monks to tier 3/4, which is clearly not the case)
edit: oh yeah this isn't a reply to anyone in particular just sharing some thoughts
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I don't disagree with you that boosting the # of Ki points changes the incentive to Multi-class. On the other hand, I've seen Monks in action at low levels. Not at all impressive compared to other Martial classes, esp. if the party is small or lacks a consistent melee "tank" to soak up most of the blows. This is why I suggested that Monks might, instead of more Ki points, get d10 HD.
Or just let it happen....
Monk is already one class that almost never Multi-classes because it's synergy is so poor.
If a full caster wants to delay spell leveling for more defense then imo it's really not that big of deal.
It's frankly easier to deal with Patient Defense then 5th level spells.
I think the bigger reason why players almost never multiclass with monk is less due to synergy and more to do that everything costs ki and delaying ki progression hurts more than delaying spell progression, or sneak attack progression, etc... There are quite a few monk/x multiclass threads in the forums, and a common theme in replies is "but that delays Ki points" Monks do, however, seem to make poor "dips" in multiclassing. I'm not sure what changes you would make to increase synergy, but one thing I see a lot is making unarmed strikes and monk weapons finesse. They already are that, just not in name, but they want the change so they can sneak attack with their fist and feet or make Defensive Duelist feat a better option (only usable with dagger and shortsword currently, on core monk). It would synergize better, but why change a monk feature in incentivize you not to be a monk?
Personally, I'm not too concerned on changing the monk to make it more palatable for a completely optional game feature (multiclassing) and more concerned that it is a strong stand alone class that people wouldn't want to MC out of because it is so good.
And multiclassing is a whole different issue I have with 5E. I like multiclassing, but don't like how some classes are front loaded and exploitable dips. But that's another conversation for another thread.
Another thing I don't understand, and I guess this is aimed more at Haravikk, the comparing Rogue to Monk when it comes to a no ki cost Step of the Wind? I think it's fine if the monk can dash or double dash circles around the rogue. Rogues (the core class) have nothing better to do with their bonus action anyway. Monks have their BA unarmed strike or FoB that they are sacrificing, in addition to ki cost, to use this feature.
Would allowing the use of Monk weapons, as part of the Bonus Action attack be too much? This would be a boost to tier 1 & 2 weapon using monks. And if you choose to use FoB, it would still be unarmed. I don't know, just thinking of different things that might help the monk class as a whole.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
My point was mainly that you shouldn't compare Step of the Wind to Rogue on the basis of "but Cunning Action Dash is free", because Cunning Action only really brings the Rogue to about the same speed that the Monk can do already so it's not a great point of comparison, and Rogues are a class where disengaging is more obviously a core part of how they're supposed to play.
I could still see making the Disengage specifically zero Ki, but on the basis that Patient Defence can be used to achieve basically the same thing (attacks of opportunity probably won't hit you) but also boosts your defence against all attacks, so it's nearly always the better choice unless you absolutely cannot take one more hit.
I'm more mixed on giving us the free double dash, because we get so much added speed that we can effectively dash for free (compared to other classes) just by using our regular movement. This is why the comparison to Rogue is problematic, because your average Rogue moves 30 feet, dashes 60 feet and double dashes 90 feet; your average Monk is 33% faster from 2nd level, or 50% faster from 6th.
Put another way; your typical Rogue can sustain about 10 mph, your full speed (non-Aarakocra) Monk can sustain 13.6 mph with only single dashing, they'd be sustaining 20 mph all day, every day with a free triple dash!
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Without spending resources rogue is going to be faster most of the time because of the free cost of cunning action for most people.
I say this because the 10ft speed increases make monk base speed 40ft at level 2 (assuming medium PC) save then 50ft at level 9.
Rogue is going to be able to hit 60 ft at level 2 with no resource burn. If they pick up mobile they are step in step with monk until level 9.
Since 90% of campaigns end at that point most people won't see the speed difference between the two as they really don't want to be spending ki on a dash most of the time.
I think it should be a dash/disengage as a single ki or one of the two for free
Even with only the 10 foot speed increase the Monk will do 80 feet in a turn with a single dash to the Rogue's 90 feet using both a their action and bonus action. To me the gap to close is the fact that the Rogue can dash as a bonus action only for 60 feet, and still keep their full action free.
I think at most the Monk should only get a free bonus action dash if they didn't dash using their action; this way they can do 80 feet per turn using just their bonus action and still attack afterwards, without any Ki cost, even so I'm fine paying 1 Ki for that. It's the free double-dashing that I have the issue with, as you're talking 120 feet per turn movement from 2nd level, sustainable all day every day which seems excessive IMO, especially since it scales all the way up to 240 feet per turn on an average Monk, which is faster than your average dragon can fly.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Ah fair... Yeah just the BA dash would be enough for me as well.
Double dash would be pretty crazy....
I think if you paired that with a 1ki cost dash/disengage combo then you really have something.
Ok, I see what you two are saying. So if Step of the Wind was the following, it would be more in line with what you are saying?
Step of the Wind
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn. Alternatively, if you do not use your action to Dash, you can take the Dash action as a bonus action at no ki cost.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Pretty close to what I had in in mind....I was actually saying you would spend 1 ki and get the benefit of both but I like your version as well!
The Monk design philosophy does not fit well with typical D&D design. The problem is that Ki is a special, class-specific resource that no, other class, zip, zero, zilch utilizes. Spell slots in contrast can be interchanged for almost all caster classes in contrast. The spell slot thing is design philosophy choice, one signals a big difference from 2nd edition. However, the devs didn't know how to add Ki to other classes, thus we are stuck with a class that feels a bit disjointed once we start mixing it up with most others. This really puts most Monks at a disadvantage when multi-classing.
The point being that Monks would need a major redesign to "play nice" with other classes for MC purposes.