LVL 3 You gain the ability to cast the cantrips Control Flames, Shape Water, Mold Earth, and Gust. You may replace any attack during your Action, Bonus Action, or Reaction with a casting of one of these cantrips.
I forgot to mention that Gust would work better with a change to allow it to knock something prone. This could be done as either errata to the spell in print or as a special feature of the 4 Element Monk. Then Gust can be used to set up melee attacks, knock flyers from the air, reduce movement, or force NPCs to bow before you.
One Medium or smaller creature that you choose must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 5 feet away from you or fall prone.
I like it! That is necessary to allow for monk grappling builds. Personally, I feel grappling is more of an Open Hand monk style. Regardless of whether this becomes part of the main class or a subclass, here are additional ways to improve monk grappling. Assuming Dexterity (Acrobatics) is used, all 3 are not needed.
You gain expertise in Acrobatics.
You may perform a Grapple or Shove instead of any bonus action or reaction attack. (Expanding it outside the Attack action.)
Whenever you hit with an unarmed strike, you may immediately attempt a Grapple or Shove contest. (This feels more Open Hand.)
With regards to grappling on Monk, I've recently been working on some NPC rival adventurers for a campaign I'm running.
One of them is a batman rip-off, so despite being equivalent to level 4 he's a Barbarian, Monk and Rogue mash up (part of the fun of building a character as a monster stat-block is I get to build all the characters I can't do justice to using proper player classes). Anyway, while simplifying everything one thing I've basically done is treat grapples and shoves as unarmed strikes for the purposes of his rules. So anywhere he can make an attack, he can swap for a grapple or shove, and this includes his Martial Arts bonus action attack (which is still a bonus action despite being a monster block, as he has other options it competes with).
It's a relatively simple change, but basically I'm thinking Martial Arts (and Flurry of Blows) should allow Grapple/Shove in place of the unarmed strike(s), as this would allow any Monk to mix them into their fighting style more easily. Open Hand would remain unique by getting them as an additional effect (don't have to give up an attack to do it), and if some of the open hand stuff were moved to the core Monk, they could be compensated by letting them use acrobatics for the checks?
Not sure what the right answer is, but I've been planning a couple possible encounters between my players and this guy (and his friends) and I'm expecting it to be a lot of fun to run. 😈
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If I understand correctly, each attack can be used replaced to make a grab or a shove.
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher. You’ve developed the skills necessary to hold your own in close-quarters grappling. You gain the following benefits:
As long as caught in the grip of your body the creature is restrained.
You can use the creature under your grasp as a shield, attacks from outside creatures against you are made with disadvantage.
If you were still hit, the creature in your grasp would also take half of your damage.
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher. You’ve learned to strike at weak points by exploiting precision melee attacks. You gain the following benefits:
On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points, in the first attack of the next turn you can add your Proficiency Bonus to the attack’s damage.
Before you make a melee attack which does not have heavy property and is not ranged, you can choose to take a penalty of half your Proficiency Bonus to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add your Proficiency Bonus to the attack’s damage.
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher. You’ve learned to strike at weak points by exploiting precision melee attacks. You gain the following benefits:
On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points, in the first attack of the next turn you can add your Proficiency Bonus to the attack’s damage.
Before you make a melee attack which does not have heavy property and is not ranged, you can choose to take a -3 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add 6 to the attack’s damage.
Slaughterer V2
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher. You’ve learned to strike at weak points by exploiting precision melee attacks. You gain the following benefits:
On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points, in the first attack of the next turn you can add your Proficiency Bonus to the attack’s damage.
When you make a melee attack with advantage, if the attack hits and the melee attack it does not have heavy and ranged property, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to the attack’s damage.
Slaughterer V3
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher. You’ve learned to strike at weak points by exploiting precision melee attacks. You gain the following benefits:
On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points, in the first attack of the next turn you can add your Proficiency Bonus to the attack’s damage.
Before you make a melee attack with advantage, you can choise to negate your advantage for greater damage. if the attack hits and the melee attack it does not have heavy and ranged property, you can add 6 to the attack’s damage.
I haven't been checking in on this topic lately so this has probably been brought up more or less, but I still wanna get this off my chest.
So a friend of mine and I were talking after the recent end of a long campaign about where they could take Monk in future and one of the things he brought up was that he believes disengage, dodge and dash should be free bonus actions. I agree, and the way he spelled out why was so funny.
So...the core flavor of this class is that it channels your body's mystical life energy, or Ki, to perform extraordinary feats. As it is now, it costs a Ki point to disengage, dash, or dodge as a bonus action but here's the thing, Rogue can disengage or dash for absolutely free by 2nd level. No Ki or anything, they can just do it. Monks are supposed to be these excessively trained martial artists and masters of their mind and body...yet it requires them to tap into their Ki reserves to do what anything from a trained assassin to a pickpocket can do willy nilly? It's just kind of funny to think about.
In another thread I mentioned that personally, I feel like the Mobile feat is mandatory to play Monk...at least it is for me. The difference between playing one without it and with it is like playing two completely different classes, without it feels so clunky whereas with it I feel I can play it like the speedy hit and run character it seems designed to be played like, and obviously the ability to disengage is the critical component there. If I could throw down my two cents really quickly, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to have Monks be able to disengage as a bonus action, but also have additional gimmicks like maybe performing Flurry of Blows allows you to disengage after, or maybe you could spend a Ki point to disengage, dash, and/or dodge as a free additional action on top of your action and bonus action. Then at least spending Ki to do it makes sense, because your character is pushing the limits of what a physical body can do.
I dunno, I just wanted to share this thought. Whatever they come up with or whatever peoples ideas are, I think how Monks can engage and disengage from combat is a critically important thing to consider if the class is to be rebuilt.
I haven't been checking in on this topic lately so this has probably been brought up more or less, but I still wanna get this off my chest.
So a friend of mine and I were talking after the recent end of a long campaign about where they could take Monk in future and one of the things he brought up was that he believes disengage, dodge and dash should be free bonus actions. I agree, and the way he spelled out why was so funny.
So...the core flavor of this class is that it channels your body's mystical life energy, or Ki, to perform extraordinary feats. As it is now, it costs a Ki point to disengage, dash, or dodge as a bonus action but here's the thing, Rogue can disengage or dash for absolutely free by 2nd level. No Ki or anything, they can just do it. Monks are supposed to be these excessively trained martial artists and masters of their mind and body...yet it requires them to tap into their Ki reserves to do what anything from a trained assassin to a pickpocket can do willy nilly? It's just kind of funny to think about.
In another thread I mentioned that personally, I feel like the Mobile feat is mandatory to play Monk...at least it is for me. The difference between playing one without it and with it is like playing two completely different classes, without it feels so clunky whereas with it I feel I can play it like the speedy hit and run character it seems designed to be played like, and obviously the ability to disengage is the critical component there. If I could throw down my two cents really quickly, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to have Monks be able to disengage as a bonus action, but also have additional gimmicks like maybe performing Flurry of Blows allows you to disengage after, or maybe you could spend a Ki point to disengage, dash, and/or dodge as a free additional action on top of your action and bonus action. Then at least spending Ki to do it makes sense, because your character is pushing the limits of what a physical body can do.
I dunno, I just wanted to share this thought. Whatever they come up with or whatever peoples ideas are, I think how Monks can engage and disengage from combat is a critically important thing to consider if the class is to be rebuilt.
I agree with you on the dash and disengage being free, and we’re not the only ones. Some disagree.
Dodge is powerful so might still need the Ki.
Your idea of free disengage after FoB would step on the Drunken Masters ability that does the same, but your other idea could be interesting. Some have suggested that FoB should be part of your action so you could keep the bonus action for the dash, disengage, or dodge. That way you don’t lose out on your damage output. Plus many other ideas.
But unfortunately we have no idea what WotC will do with Monks. We can only keep putting forward ideas, as you have, and hope beyond hope that they see them and maybe take them to heart as they work towards the new edition (or half edition).
So...the core flavor of this class is that it channels your body's mystical life energy, or Ki, to perform extraordinary feats. As it is now, it costs a Ki point to disengage, dash, or dodge as a bonus action but here's the thing, Rogue can disengage or dash for absolutely free by 2nd level. No Ki or anything, they can just do it. Monks are supposed to be these excessively trained martial artists and masters of their mind and body...yet it requires them to tap into their Ki reserves to do what anything from a trained assassin to a pickpocket can do willy nilly? It's just kind of funny to think about.
I agree with you on the dash and disengage being free, and we’re not the only ones. Some disagree.
Dodge is powerful so might still need the Ki.
Dodge definitely needs to cost Ki, as most other options just wouldn't be worth the trade off to your defence if it was free.
Dash I think is fine if it's free, but only if you don't Dash twice in the turn, i.e- free single dash, but still costs 1 Ki to double dash. This is because Monks from 2nd-level can single dash around 80 feet already, while an equivalent single-dashing Rogue only travels 60 feet, or 90 feet if they double dash (losing their action).
Free Disengage seems reasonable, but I think I'd like to see it still cost 1 Ki to mix it in with a Dash, e.g- you can dash or disengage for free as a bonus action, or you can do both for one Ki?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
So...the core flavor of this class is that it channels your body's mystical life energy, or Ki, to perform extraordinary feats. As it is now, it costs a Ki point to disengage, dash, or dodge as a bonus action but here's the thing, Rogue can disengage or dash for absolutely free by 2nd level. No Ki or anything, they can just do it. Monks are supposed to be these excessively trained martial artists and masters of their mind and body...yet it requires them to tap into their Ki reserves to do what anything from a trained assassin to a pickpocket can do willy nilly? It's just kind of funny to think about.
I agree with you on the dash and disengage being free, and we’re not the only ones. Some disagree.
Dodge is powerful so might still need the Ki.
Dodge definitely needs to cost Ki, as most other options just wouldn't be worth the trade off to your defence if it was free.
Dash I think is fine if it's free, but only if you don't Dash twice in the turn, i.e- free single dash, but still costs 1 Ki to double dash. This is because Monks from 2nd-level can single dash around 80 feet already, while an equivalent single-dashing Rogue only travels 60 feet, or 90 feet if they double dash (losing their action).
Free Disengage seems reasonable, but I think I'd like to see it still cost 1 Ki to mix it in with a Dash, e.g- you can dash or disengage for free as a bonus action, or you can do both for one Ki?
Something like that seems reasonable.
I agree with the dodge.
I’m confused on the monk triple dash compared to rogue double dash. I’m sure I’m just having a brain fart. But isn’t the monk moving 40’, then Action dash 40’ then BA dash (for 1 Ki) total 120’ (triple dash) the same action economy cost of the rogues double dash (move 30’, action dash 30’, BA dash 30’) for that 90’ you mentioned? Or am I screwing it up? I’m no rules expert.
I know we discussed this in the past earlier in this thread but i have no problem with a monk moving faster, even way faster, than a rogue. The core class Rogue has no BA feature that I can recall other than cunning action. The Monk gives up damage (core class Martial Arts BA attack or FoB) to dash or disengage.
I look at it this way. A monk at level 5 gets 2 attacks and a BA unarmed strike or FoB. So assuming 18 DEX at this point and using quarterstaff or spear they are doing 2d8+8 (17 avg) as attack action and 7.5/15 damage BA attack/FoB. 24.5/32 avg damage
A 5th level rogue with 18 DEX, rapier and sneak attack (which is fairly easy to get) is doing 1d8+4 (8.5 avg) and 3d6 (10.5 avg) for a total of 19 avg damage and they can still BA dash or disengage.
If the monk BA dash/disengage they are now back down to 17 damage and a loss of 1 Ki.
At 11th level (assuming 20 DEX) the monk is doing the 19 avg damage with the attack action (unarmed or with a weapon) and losing out on another 19 damage (total of 38 avg) at the cost of greater than rogue speed.
The same rogue at 11th level, 20 DEX, sneak attack, and rapier is doing 1d8+5 (9.5) plus 6d6 (21) for a total of 30.5 damage on average. And free dash/disengage.
I just don’t see how the additional speed is comparable to the lose in damage. Sure if the enemy is out of the rogues 60’ move+dash then they are doing no damage. But I don’t see that happening that often to compensate.
I’m confused on the monk triple dash compared to rogue double dash. I’m sure I’m just having a brain fart. But isn’t the monk moving 40’, then Action dash 40’ then BA dash (for 1 Ki) total 120’ (triple dash) the same action economy cost of the rogues double dash (move 30’, action dash 30’, BA dash 30’) for that 90’ you mentioned? Or am I screwing it up? I’m no rules expert.
When the Rogue uses a bonus action dash, they can move up to 60 feet and still attack, or they can double dash (using their action and bonus action) for more speed and move up to 90 feet, but that's basically their entire turn.
From 2nd-level the Monk can single dash 80 feet and can still attack, so they're very nearly gaining the Rogue's maximum speed without the drawback of losing their turn, only their bonus action attack(s). When the Monk double dashes they're moving up 120 feet, and that's only their first increase.
By 18th-level the Monk doesn't even need to dash anymore to move 60 feet in a turn, while the Rogue still has to, and if the Monk single dashes they'll travel up to 120 feet and still have their full action. So in raw speed, the free bonus action Dash is worth more to the Monk than it is to the Rogue.
Now of course, how valuable speed actually is in practice is campaign and DM dependent, but making just the single dash as a bonus action free is already giving the Monk a big speed boost (that they can use all day, every day until lack of sleep catches up to them). I dunno, it's not a hill I'm happy to die on, but it just feels like when single dashing is already so fast, that double dashing should cost something, as these are Monks, not perpetual motion machines. Even in a campaign where speed isn't a big deal, with the Monk's built in speed you'll probably just never need to double dash, where the Rogue still might.
It just seems wrong to me to give Monks something fully for free on the basis that another class gets it for free, when that other class isn't anywhere near as fast as the Monk can be be. But yeah, it's only really the double dash that gives me that itch.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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How many times did it happen to you as a monk to use Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Timeless Body.
Some of these features might be useful, but they are so little used that it feels like you don't even have them.
It must be said that the monk is full of impractical features compared to other classes. I think this is also to be evaluated. This also happens because these features are solely for the use of the monk and not for the group. If these features were also for the use of the group they would certainly be used more often and the monk could finally make himself useful in the group. This would also make the game more fun as a team effort and not just about who gets the most kills.
How many times did it happen to you as a monk to use Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Timeless Body.
Deflect Missiles does not come up much in combat due to most monsters not having a ranged weapon attack. But when it comes up, it is fun and flavorful :) Both Deflect Missiles and Slow Fall show up significantly more when dealing with traps. Pit traps? Take no damage, then step on every square in the room to make sure it is safe for the rest of the party. A trap shoots a dart or arrow? Take no damage, save the ammo for later.
Perhaps a Deflect Missiles changed to Deflect Weapon could be "you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the weapon when you or someone within 5 ft is hit by a weapon attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1 martial arts dice for each hand you have free...." It would be more often useful than Deflect Missiles as it can help teammates. It could have a similar condition (reducing the damage to 0) for a counterattack without risking multiclass sneak attack shenanigans (2 free hands for max damage reduction means no finesse weapon). It scales with Monk levels comparable to the Interception Fighting Style. The downside is the weirdness of "I stow my weapon after attacking this turn in order to have 2 hands free. Next turn I draw my weapon to attack."
I see it more like this, but indeed dart and arrow attacks are rare among enemies, which is actually strange given the tactical advantage.
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the missile when you or an ally at 5 feet of you are hit by a ranged weapon attack. When you do so, the damage take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if you have at least one hand free and it is small enough to hold. If you catch a missile, you can make a ranged attack with 20/60 of range using the weapon or ammunition you just caught, as part of the same reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack.
<<No ki cost, it is enough of a limitation to have to reduce the damage to zero before you can catch it. Since no one attacks a monk with arrows and darts this feature seems not to exist, so I find that to make it live again we could make this feature also a protection for those next to the monk.>>
Expanding Deflect Missiles to work against other attacks is very powerful; this is how I've been playing Agile Parry on my modified Kensei sub-class, and it's a strong ability, so I don't think it should be given to all Monks as standard, and definitely not to work on nearby allies as well.
It's worth keeping in mind btw that Deflect Missiles is a feature that we get at 3rd-level, on top of our first set of sub-class features, so it being uncommonly used isn't really an issue.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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One thing to remember when looking at impractical features is how ... important those features are to the entirety of the class. As Haravikk points out, you get deflect missiles at the same level as you get your first subclass feature. I don't think it's necessarily meant to be a major feature.
IMO, the monk getting a lot of features like this is a good thing though, not a bad thing. They're flavorful options that might sometimes encourage you to approach a situation in a creative way because of what they do, but don't constitute a huge chunk of power budget. By comparison, a lot of other classes can feel rather sterile. They don't really get a lot of secondary features that just let them do fun, situational things.
please enlighten me of a non-major fetaure in another class on par with this one.
Most utility spells. The ranger's Natural Explorer or Favored Enemy. Though in this I am specifically talking about deflect missile and slow fall, less so the speak languages and timeless body stuff. Ribbon features for flavor exist, and those are ok. If you have enough good features it doesn't matter if you have a couple meh features.
Personally I really like Deflect missile and Slow fall and use them fairly regularly, but that is GM, campaign and scenario dependent, making deflect missile work on spell attacks or something would help out a lot. Slow fall though I just find uses for, use step of the wind to double jump distance to leap from a tree into the castle grounds, slow fall to land on my feat and unlock the gates from the inside so cool.
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I forgot to mention that Gust would work better with a change to allow it to knock something prone. This could be done as either errata to the spell in print or as a special feature of the 4 Element Monk. Then Gust can be used to set up melee attacks, knock flyers from the air, reduce movement, or force NPCs to bow before you.
With regards to grappling on Monk, I've recently been working on some NPC rival adventurers for a campaign I'm running.
One of them is a batman rip-off, so despite being equivalent to level 4 he's a Barbarian, Monk and Rogue mash up (part of the fun of building a character as a monster stat-block is I get to build all the characters I can't do justice to using proper player classes). Anyway, while simplifying everything one thing I've basically done is treat grapples and shoves as unarmed strikes for the purposes of his rules. So anywhere he can make an attack, he can swap for a grapple or shove, and this includes his Martial Arts bonus action attack (which is still a bonus action despite being a monster block, as he has other options it competes with).
It's a relatively simple change, but basically I'm thinking Martial Arts (and Flurry of Blows) should allow Grapple/Shove in place of the unarmed strike(s), as this would allow any Monk to mix them into their fighting style more easily. Open Hand would remain unique by getting them as an additional effect (don't have to give up an attack to do it), and if some of the open hand stuff were moved to the core Monk, they could be compensated by letting them use acrobatics for the checks?
Not sure what the right answer is, but I've been planning a couple possible encounters between my players and this guy (and his friends) and I'm expecting it to be a lot of fun to run. 😈
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
If I understand correctly, each attack can be used replaced to make a grab or a shove.
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
I created 2 new feats, what do you think?
Pro Grappler
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher.
You’ve developed the skills necessary to hold your own in close-quarters grappling. You gain the following benefits:
Slaughterer
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher.
You’ve learned to strike at weak points by exploiting precision melee attacks. You gain the following benefits:
Slaughterer
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher.
You’ve learned to strike at weak points by exploiting precision melee attacks. You gain the following benefits:
Slaughterer V2
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher.
You’ve learned to strike at weak points by exploiting precision melee attacks. You gain the following benefits:
Slaughterer V3
Prerequisite: Strength or Dexterity 13, or higher.
You’ve learned to strike at weak points by exploiting precision melee attacks. You gain the following benefits:
I haven't been checking in on this topic lately so this has probably been brought up more or less, but I still wanna get this off my chest.
So a friend of mine and I were talking after the recent end of a long campaign about where they could take Monk in future and one of the things he brought up was that he believes disengage, dodge and dash should be free bonus actions. I agree, and the way he spelled out why was so funny.
So...the core flavor of this class is that it channels your body's mystical life energy, or Ki, to perform extraordinary feats. As it is now, it costs a Ki point to disengage, dash, or dodge as a bonus action but here's the thing, Rogue can disengage or dash for absolutely free by 2nd level. No Ki or anything, they can just do it. Monks are supposed to be these excessively trained martial artists and masters of their mind and body...yet it requires them to tap into their Ki reserves to do what anything from a trained assassin to a pickpocket can do willy nilly? It's just kind of funny to think about.
In another thread I mentioned that personally, I feel like the Mobile feat is mandatory to play Monk...at least it is for me. The difference between playing one without it and with it is like playing two completely different classes, without it feels so clunky whereas with it I feel I can play it like the speedy hit and run character it seems designed to be played like, and obviously the ability to disengage is the critical component there. If I could throw down my two cents really quickly, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to have Monks be able to disengage as a bonus action, but also have additional gimmicks like maybe performing Flurry of Blows allows you to disengage after, or maybe you could spend a Ki point to disengage, dash, and/or dodge as a free additional action on top of your action and bonus action. Then at least spending Ki to do it makes sense, because your character is pushing the limits of what a physical body can do.
I dunno, I just wanted to share this thought. Whatever they come up with or whatever peoples ideas are, I think how Monks can engage and disengage from combat is a critically important thing to consider if the class is to be rebuilt.
I agree with you on the dash and disengage being free, and we’re not the only ones. Some disagree.
Dodge is powerful so might still need the Ki.
Your idea of free disengage after FoB would step on the Drunken Masters ability that does the same, but your other idea could be interesting. Some have suggested that FoB should be part of your action so you could keep the bonus action for the dash, disengage, or dodge. That way you don’t lose out on your damage output. Plus many other ideas.
But unfortunately we have no idea what WotC will do with Monks. We can only keep putting forward ideas, as you have, and hope beyond hope that they see them and maybe take them to heart as they work towards the new edition (or half edition).
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Dodge definitely needs to cost Ki, as most other options just wouldn't be worth the trade off to your defence if it was free.
Dash I think is fine if it's free, but only if you don't Dash twice in the turn, i.e- free single dash, but still costs 1 Ki to double dash. This is because Monks from 2nd-level can single dash around 80 feet already, while an equivalent single-dashing Rogue only travels 60 feet, or 90 feet if they double dash (losing their action).
Free Disengage seems reasonable, but I think I'd like to see it still cost 1 Ki to mix it in with a Dash, e.g- you can dash or disengage for free as a bonus action, or you can do both for one Ki?
Something like that seems reasonable.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I agree with the dodge.
I’m confused on the monk triple dash compared to rogue double dash. I’m sure I’m just having a brain fart. But isn’t the monk moving 40’, then Action dash 40’ then BA dash (for 1 Ki) total 120’ (triple dash) the same action economy cost of the rogues double dash (move 30’, action dash 30’, BA dash 30’) for that 90’ you mentioned? Or am I screwing it up? I’m no rules expert.
I know we discussed this in the past earlier in this thread but i have no problem with a monk moving faster, even way faster, than a rogue. The core class Rogue has no BA feature that I can recall other than cunning action. The Monk gives up damage (core class Martial Arts BA attack or FoB) to dash or disengage.
Your solution is a good one though.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I look at it this way. A monk at level 5 gets 2 attacks and a BA unarmed strike or FoB. So assuming 18 DEX at this point and using quarterstaff or spear they are doing 2d8+8 (17 avg) as attack action and 7.5/15 damage BA attack/FoB. 24.5/32 avg damage
A 5th level rogue with 18 DEX, rapier and sneak attack (which is fairly easy to get) is doing 1d8+4 (8.5 avg) and 3d6 (10.5 avg) for a total of 19 avg damage and they can still BA dash or disengage.
If the monk BA dash/disengage they are now back down to 17 damage and a loss of 1 Ki.
At 11th level (assuming 20 DEX) the monk is doing the 19 avg damage with the attack action (unarmed or with a weapon) and losing out on another 19 damage (total of 38 avg) at the cost of greater than rogue speed.
The same rogue at 11th level, 20 DEX, sneak attack, and rapier is doing 1d8+5 (9.5) plus 6d6 (21) for a total of 30.5 damage on average. And free dash/disengage.
I just don’t see how the additional speed is comparable to the lose in damage. Sure if the enemy is out of the rogues 60’ move+dash then they are doing no damage. But I don’t see that happening that often to compensate.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
When the Rogue uses a bonus action dash, they can move up to 60 feet and still attack, or they can double dash (using their action and bonus action) for more speed and move up to 90 feet, but that's basically their entire turn.
From 2nd-level the Monk can single dash 80 feet and can still attack, so they're very nearly gaining the Rogue's maximum speed without the drawback of losing their turn, only their bonus action attack(s). When the Monk double dashes they're moving up 120 feet, and that's only their first increase.
By 18th-level the Monk doesn't even need to dash anymore to move 60 feet in a turn, while the Rogue still has to, and if the Monk single dashes they'll travel up to 120 feet and still have their full action. So in raw speed, the free bonus action Dash is worth more to the Monk than it is to the Rogue.
Now of course, how valuable speed actually is in practice is campaign and DM dependent, but making just the single dash as a bonus action free is already giving the Monk a big speed boost (that they can use all day, every day until lack of sleep catches up to them). I dunno, it's not a hill I'm happy to die on, but it just feels like when single dashing is already so fast, that double dashing should cost something, as these are Monks, not perpetual motion machines. Even in a campaign where speed isn't a big deal, with the Monk's built in speed you'll probably just never need to double dash, where the Rogue still might.
It just seems wrong to me to give Monks something fully for free on the basis that another class gets it for free, when that other class isn't anywhere near as fast as the Monk can be be. But yeah, it's only really the double dash that gives me that itch.
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I would have a question.
How many times did it happen to you as a monk to use Deflect Missiles, Slow Fall, Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Timeless Body.
Some of these features might be useful, but they are so little used that it feels like you don't even have them.
It must be said that the monk is full of impractical features compared to other classes. I think this is also to be evaluated.
This also happens because these features are solely for the use of the monk and not for the group. If these features were also for the use of the group they would certainly be used more often and the monk could finally make himself useful in the group. This would also make the game more fun as a team effort and not just about who gets the most kills.
Deflect Missiles does not come up much in combat due to most monsters not having a ranged weapon attack. But when it comes up, it is fun and flavorful :) Both Deflect Missiles and Slow Fall show up significantly more when dealing with traps. Pit traps? Take no damage, then step on every square in the room to make sure it is safe for the rest of the party. A trap shoots a dart or arrow? Take no damage, save the ammo for later.
Perhaps a Deflect Missiles changed to Deflect Weapon could be "you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the weapon when you or someone within 5 ft is hit by a weapon attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1 martial arts dice for each hand you have free...." It would be more often useful than Deflect Missiles as it can help teammates. It could have a similar condition (reducing the damage to 0) for a counterattack without risking multiclass sneak attack shenanigans (2 free hands for max damage reduction means no finesse weapon). It scales with Monk levels comparable to the Interception Fighting Style. The downside is the weirdness of "I stow my weapon after attacking this turn in order to have 2 hands free. Next turn I draw my weapon to attack."
I see it more like this, but indeed dart and arrow attacks are rare among enemies, which is actually strange given the tactical advantage.
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the missile when you or an ally at 5 feet of you are hit by a ranged weapon attack. When you do so, the damage take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if you have at least one hand free and it is small enough to hold. If you catch a missile, you can make a ranged attack with 20/60 of range using the weapon or ammunition you just caught, as part of the same reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack.
<<No ki cost, it is enough of a limitation to have to reduce the damage to zero before you can catch it. Since no one attacks a monk with arrows and darts this feature seems not to exist, so I find that to make it live again we could make this feature also a protection for those next to the monk.>>
Expanding Deflect Missiles to work against other attacks is very powerful; this is how I've been playing Agile Parry on my modified Kensei sub-class, and it's a strong ability, so I don't think it should be given to all Monks as standard, and definitely not to work on nearby allies as well.
It's worth keeping in mind btw that Deflect Missiles is a feature that we get at 3rd-level, on top of our first set of sub-class features, so it being uncommonly used isn't really an issue.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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One thing to remember when looking at impractical features is how ... important those features are to the entirety of the class. As Haravikk points out, you get deflect missiles at the same level as you get your first subclass feature. I don't think it's necessarily meant to be a major feature.
IMO, the monk getting a lot of features like this is a good thing though, not a bad thing. They're flavorful options that might sometimes encourage you to approach a situation in a creative way because of what they do, but don't constitute a huge chunk of power budget. By comparison, a lot of other classes can feel rather sterile. They don't really get a lot of secondary features that just let them do fun, situational things.
please enlighten me of a non-major fetaure in another class on par with this one.
What I just want to say is that features that are there but are almost never used are not fun -- and a game is played because it's fun.
Most utility spells. The ranger's Natural Explorer or Favored Enemy. Though in this I am specifically talking about deflect missile and slow fall, less so the speak languages and timeless body stuff. Ribbon features for flavor exist, and those are ok. If you have enough good features it doesn't matter if you have a couple meh features.
Personally I really like Deflect missile and Slow fall and use them fairly regularly, but that is GM, campaign and scenario dependent, making deflect missile work on spell attacks or something would help out a lot. Slow fall though I just find uses for, use step of the wind to double jump distance to leap from a tree into the castle grounds, slow fall to land on my feat and unlock the gates from the inside so cool.