Exactly as I said, I think the issue is more that the other monk features don't synergize well, and that the easiest fix is just to make the other non-ki features better.
Edit: Every class has a certain opportunity cost when dipping out of it. Even spellcasters have to worry about not getting higher level spells. This isn't even a argument. I agree the stuff monks get that don't require ki are niche, that's why my argument has been the whole time that "Monks rely on an exclusive resource, which is contrary to the the design philosophy of 5E" is just completely wrong.
The entire design philosophy of 5E IS exclusive class-resources especially for martials. See my previous posts.
I agree monks need do be buffed yeah, but making ki more globally is far outside the scope of this thread and is completely unnecessary. Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues don't need this kind of fix despite having the same "exclusive class resource" issue, so why are we applying it to monks instead of following the design precedent from those martial classes?
Again, my only disagreement is with "Monks rely on an exclusive resource, which is contrary to the the design philosophy of 5E" and that this needs to be fixed. Everything else is yeah I agree.
The disagreement is that I don't think the difference is detrimental to the monk. Not anymore than other classes not getting rage or sneak attack is to the detriment of mutliclassing barbarian/rogue.
I don't think the monk's reliance on ki is something that needs to be removed.
Edit: I think as long as monk subclasses don't introduce new uses for ki at level 3, monk's are in a pretty good place ki-wise. It's mostly their other features that make multiclassing less appealing.
And where I disagree with you is in equating Ki as it currently is used for Monk to Barbarian and Rage or Rogues and sneak attack.
Barbarians are less effective without Rage, but they get d12 HD, get to use shields, and don't get penalized for wearing Medium armor. Also Rage lasts for a full minute. All the bonuses of being in Rage mode last for a full minute. Except for maybe the Astral Self Monk (at 17th level on, which most players don't normally play at), none of the Monks get to use Ki this efficiently. Note that Rage is a form of damage reduction as well, which boosts their d12 HD. Would you agree, then, that Monks should at least get d10 HD instead of a measly d8?
Sneak attacks are not limited. Rogues can use one SA per turn, but never run out of them. How is that even comparable to a limited resource like Ki?
I’m not expecting great changes in 2024 so I’m starting to be more convinced that the following fixes could beneficial and easy to implement.
1 make the core class Ki-less as I mentioned in post #89
2 Ki starting at 3rd level equal to monk level and only for subclass features.
3 increase damage die to d6, d8, d10, d12
4 monk a Dex only class. And DC’s based off Dex modifier. No more wisdom required
5 unarmored defense starts at 13+Dex. Then increases to 14, 15, and 16 +Dex at 5th, 11th, and 17th level.
I'd rather the option to wear light and medium armor alongside the normal unarmored defesne option, so STR and WIS(astral Self) monk would be viable.
Yeah the lack of STR monk is pretty big swing and miss IMO....its a really cool character idea and the class would have some cool things you could do with STR monk (Run up a wall with a grappled enemy) that you can't do with other classes.
I just feel like monk has a "sweet spot" that if you play in it is pretty fun but outside of that you feel a bit underwhelming....
I generally say monk has a high floor but a low ceiling and I stick by that.
I like that option as well. But would really hope to get away from MAD classes to make a variety of builds possible. Besides monks I think only rangers and paladins have two prerequisites for ability scores for multiclassing. I think it would be better if all classes had one primary stat leaving the other stats for players to do with as they wish for how they see their character.
I like that option as well. But would really hope to get away from MAD classes to make a variety of builds possible. Besides monks I think only rangers and paladins have two prerequisites for ability scores for multiclassing. I think it would be better if all classes had one primary stat leaving the other stats for players to do with as they wish for how they see their character.
Oh yeah would definitely create more unique characters and combos for sure.
I just want monks to gain more of an identity outside of combat. Mediocre fighter with no skill game is just sad.
Me, creating a team for a game on the Westmarch server I play on after getting approached by a monk who wants to join: "Hmm, you don't like to take a lot of hits, you don't deal a lot of damage, you don't have very good ranged game. You can at least do skill stuff right, help us out when we're not fighting? No, okay then."
I just want monks to gain more of an identity outside of combat. Mediocre fighter with no skill game is just sad.
Me, creating a team for a game on the Westmarch server I play on after getting approached by a monk who wants to join: "Hmm, you don't like to take a lot of hits, you don't deal a lot of damage, you don't have very good ranged game. You can at least do skill stuff right, help us out when we're not fighting? No, okay then."
Being Dexterity and Wisdom dependent actually gives Monks a pretty decent skills game already, as these ability scores cover a lot of very useful skills. I certainly wouldn't refuse a little something extra though!
I've recently been getting enormous mileage out of the Magical Guidance optional class feature for Sorcerer, where you can spend a Sorcery Point to re-roll any failed ability check. If we assume that additional features like that are likely to become default features in future, then one possibility would be to allow Monks to do the same using Ki, as it has same basic scaling and doesn't really step on the Sorcerer's toes (as they're still very different classes), though it might need to cost a little more or have another restriction since Ki reset on a short rest.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Rogues and Rangers get actual class abilities that help them succeed on these skill checks and are generally more able combatants in one form or another. It isn't a favorable comparison.
Rogues and Rangers get actual class abilities that help them succeed on these skill checks and are generally more able combatants in one form or another. It isn't a favorable comparison.
You were talking about an identity outside of combat so being a more able combatant in general is a non-argument here.
Also the intend wasn't to create a necessarily favorable comparison, just a more fitting one. Yes Rogues and Rangers get abilities that help them succeed skill checks but they also can't run up walls at speeds greater than anything else or can just jump down from roofs or trees or whatever without breaking a leg. Or be immune to poison (Rangers can remove it via magic but they have very limited amount of spell slots and known spells and it still requires very obvious V and S components to cast it). Or remove charms at will. Or understand and speak any language. Or fight well after getting disarmed.
They can do other things and that's fine. It's pretty much the definition of having an identity.
Fighters with their base class get literally nothing that helps them with anything outside of combat unless they take specific feats for their additional ASIs (as we know stat increases usually get used to increase their combat ability so likely STR/DEX and CON anyway). So the comparison with Fighters when it comes to what they can do outside of combat is just very off. Monks have MUCH more of an identity than just being mediocre Fighters outside of combat.
One could argue that the fact they get more feats is opportunity to be more applicable out of combat....a level 6 v. human fighter can have 3 feats which can impact your out of combat ability a lot if you want.
I would argue that Monks do not have that AND they do not get much non-combat features from their class or even from a lot of their subclasses....the newer monk subclasses aside as I think WotC is finally trying to do something about this with new subclasses so that is good.
Also monks are more MAD so their ASI need to be spent increasing ability scores and not taking feats as they will hurt the most from not doing so.
If you are in a feat-less game I think your point would be very valid though as the fighter would mostly be looking at maxing abilities and not have much outside of what their subclass/background provided.
But then at least WotC gave fighter more options with Tashas as well with Rune knight (advantage on a ton of different checks), Battlemaster (use superiority die on skill checks), and Skill Expert (ASI improvement/expertise)
I just want monks to gain more of an identity outside of combat. Mediocre fighter with no skill game is just sad.
Me, creating a team for a game on the Westmarch server I play on after getting approached by a monk who wants to join: "Hmm, you don't like to take a lot of hits, you don't deal a lot of damage, you don't have very good ranged game. You can at least do skill stuff right, help us out when we're not fighting? No, okay then."
Being Dexterity and Wisdom dependent actually gives Monks a pretty decent skills game already, as these ability scores cover a lot of very useful skills. I certainly wouldn't refuse a little something extra though!
I've recently been getting enormous mileage out of the Magical Guidance optional class feature for Sorcerer, where you can spend a Sorcery Point to re-roll any failed ability check. If we assume that additional features like that are likely to become default features in future, then one possibility would be to allow Monks to do the same using Ki, as it has exactly the same scaling and doesn't really step on the Sorcerer's toes (as they're still very different classes).
Man a Ki Knack for physical/wisdom based skills would be amazing yeah...
You can spend a ki point to get ADV on Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Insight, or Perception. That would be a GREAT addition to monk for sure and I know it would create some great opportunity to use ki on combat light days.
I just want monks to gain more of an identity outside of combat. Mediocre fighter with no skill game is just sad.
Me, creating a team for a game on the Westmarch server I play on after getting approached by a monk who wants to join: "Hmm, you don't like to take a lot of hits, you don't deal a lot of damage, you don't have very good ranged game. You can at least do skill stuff right, help us out when we're not fighting? No, okay then."
I agree. I've been playing the Way of Mercy, which gets extra proficiencies, and even so, I don't feel like I can really do much when it's not monster kicking time. I'm worse at sneaking than our Rogue, worse at healing, knowing nature, and medicine than our Druid, worse at talking and worse at noticing things than our Wizard, and worse at taking or dealing damage than our Fighter. The fact that I can kind of do a little bit of each of these things is actually not helpful in the least. I need to be able to do something really well.
Rogues and Rangers get actual class abilities that help them succeed on these skill checks and are generally more able combatants in one form or another. It isn't a favorable comparison.
You were talking about an identity outside of combat so being a more able combatant in general is a non-argument here.
Also the intend wasn't to create a necessarily favorable comparison, just a more fitting one. Yes Rogues and Rangers get abilities that help them succeed skill checks but they also can't run up walls at speeds greater than anything else or can just jump down from roofs or trees or whatever without breaking a leg. Or be immune to poison (Rangers can remove it via magic but they have very limited amount of spell slots and known spells and it still requires very obvious V and S components to cast it). Or remove charms at will. Or understand and speak any language. Or fight well after getting disarmed.
They can do other things and that's fine. It's pretty much the definition of having an identity.
Fighters with their base class get literally nothing that helps them with anything outside of combat unless they take specific feats for their additional ASIs (as we know stat increases usually get used to increase their combat ability so likely STR/DEX and CON anyway). So the comparison with Fighters when it comes to what they can do outside of combat is just very off. Monks have MUCH more of an identity than just being mediocre Fighters outside of combat.
One could argue that the fact they get more feats is opportunity to be more applicable out of combat....a level 6 v. human fighter can have 3 feats which can impact your out of combat ability a lot if you want.
I would argue that Monks do not have that AND they do not get much non-combat features from their class or even from a lot of their subclasses....the newer monk subclasses aside as I think WotC is finally trying to do something about this with new subclasses so that is good.
Also monks are more MAD so their ASI need to be spent increasing ability scores and not taking feats as they will hurt the most from not doing so.
If you are in a feat-less game I think your point would be very valid though as the fighter would mostly be looking at maxing abilities and not have much outside of what their subclass/background provided.
But then at least WotC gave fighter more options with Tashas as well with Rune knight (advantage on a ton of different checks), Battlemaster (use superiority die on skill checks), and Skill Expert (ASI improvement/expertise)
But Monks do get a lot as I should have made clear. And Fighters don't use their additional ASIs to take feats for stuff outside of combat most of the time. So one could argue that but it wouldn't really be worth the time and effort lol
They don't though.... Monks don't get many non-combat stuff.
They get as many skills as a fighter with a much more pressing need to take ASI compared to fighter and fewer ASI to get there.
But fighters at least have a choice to take non-combat feats as they are one of the most single attribute dependant class in the game just behind Rogue.
Fighters even have better subclasses for out of combat stuf.... battlemaster can use die on skill checks now, rune Knight gets adv on several checks including tools potentially, psi die help psi Knight.
Overall monk has some subclasses that help but it's not much
Rogues and Rangers get actual class abilities that help them succeed on these skill checks and are generally more able combatants in one form or another. It isn't a favorable comparison.
You were talking about an identity outside of combat so being a more able combatant in general is a non-argument here.
Also the intend wasn't to create a necessarily favorable comparison, just a more fitting one. Yes Rogues and Rangers get abilities that help them succeed skill checks but they also can't run up walls at speeds greater than anything else or can just jump down from roofs or trees or whatever without breaking a leg. Or be immune to poison (Rangers can remove it via magic but they have very limited amount of spell slots and known spells and it still requires very obvious V and S components to cast it). Or remove charms at will. Or understand and speak any language. Or fight well after getting disarmed.
They can do other things and that's fine. It's pretty much the definition of having an identity.
Fighters with their base class get literally nothing that helps them with anything outside of combat unless they take specific feats for their additional ASIs (as we know stat increases usually get used to increase their combat ability so likely STR/DEX and CON anyway). So the comparison with Fighters when it comes to what they can do outside of combat is just very off. Monks have MUCH more of an identity than just being mediocre Fighters outside of combat.
One could argue that the fact they get more feats is opportunity to be more applicable out of combat....a level 6 v. human fighter can have 3 feats which can impact your out of combat ability a lot if you want.
I would argue that Monks do not have that AND they do not get much non-combat features from their class or even from a lot of their subclasses....the newer monk subclasses aside as I think WotC is finally trying to do something about this with new subclasses so that is good.
Also monks are more MAD so their ASI need to be spent increasing ability scores and not taking feats as they will hurt the most from not doing so.
If you are in a feat-less game I think your point would be very valid though as the fighter would mostly be looking at maxing abilities and not have much outside of what their subclass/background provided.
But then at least WotC gave fighter more options with Tashas as well with Rune knight (advantage on a ton of different checks), Battlemaster (use superiority die on skill checks), and Skill Expert (ASI improvement/expertise)
But Monks do get a lot as I should have made clear. And Fighters don't use their additional ASIs to take feats for stuff outside of combat most of the time. So one could argue that but it wouldn't really be worth the time and effort lol
They don't though.... Monks don't get many non-combat stuff.
They get as many skills as a fighter with a much more pressing need to take ASI compared to fighter and fewer ASI to get there.
But fighters at least have a choice to take non-combat feats as they are one of the most single attribute dependant class in the game just behind Rogue.
Fighters even have better subclasses for out of combat stuf.... battlemaster can use die on skill checks now, rune Knight gets adv on several checks including tools potentially, psi die help psi Knight.
Overall monk has some subclasses that help but it's not much
I literally listed what they all can do out of combat in my post, but I can repeat myself once more if you want, but you might want to actually read the posts you're replying to next time.
They can:
run up walls at speeds greater than anything else, can just jump down from roofs or trees or whatever without breaking a leg or jump easily greater distances (aka get to places faster and safer than the Fighter or at all if there's no normal path)
be immune to poison
remove charms at will
understand and speak any language
fight well after getting disarmed (admittedly not a purely out of combat thing, but they can't get disarmed which would practically completely take out a Fighter unless you happen to be a rare unarmed style Fighter)
Fighters get literally nothing like that. Like, at all.
Sure they don't get more skills, but skill checks aren't everything. Also Fighters often tend to go for STR and CON (with two subclasses even INT) instead of DEX and WIS, and we all know that DEX, WIS, INT and CHA are the kings of skill checks, not STR or CON. DEX Fighters do exist as well of course though so that's more of a minor point and not something I'd seriously consider a big thing in favor of the Monk to be fair.
That's all combat stuff tho.... Movement and Language are really the only thing that's non-combat. And the major complaint I have with movement being a "skill" is that you generally need something to do with it for it to be useful.
Like a fighter won't get fly or levitate at level 9 I get that .... But chances are the rest of the party will have something before 9th level to deal with movement based puzzles or the fighter could just be one of the flying races and the advantage is gone completely.
And the language stuff is like level 13?
95% of campaigns will end before that or will be 95% completed by that point... Long time to wait for utility.... And the fighter could have picked up ritual caster and comprehend languages if that's really that much needed with their extra ASI
Charms are mostly combat related and it's a grey area on what the monk knows about being charmed in the first place. They get indomitable so they are least get a chance to fight it.... Plus they can get WIS resilience feat with their extra ASI.
Poison immunity is combat or maybe trap related but we were discussing skills and utilities.... damage mitigation is hardly one of those.
I did read your post it's just mostly combat stuff
Exactly as I said, I think the issue is more that the other monk features don't synergize well, and that the easiest fix is just to make the other non-ki features better.
Edit: Every class has a certain opportunity cost when dipping out of it. Even spellcasters have to worry about not getting higher level spells. This isn't even a argument. I agree the stuff monks get that don't require ki are niche, that's why my argument has been the whole time that "Monks rely on an exclusive resource, which is contrary to the the design philosophy of 5E" is just completely wrong.
The entire design philosophy of 5E IS exclusive class-resources especially for martials. See my previous posts.
I agree monks need do be buffed yeah, but making ki more globally is far outside the scope of this thread and is completely unnecessary. Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues don't need this kind of fix despite having the same "exclusive class resource" issue, so why are we applying it to monks instead of following the design precedent from those martial classes?
Again, my only disagreement is with "Monks rely on an exclusive resource, which is contrary to the the design philosophy of 5E" and that this needs to be fixed. Everything else is yeah I agree.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
And where I disagree with you is in equating Ki as it currently is used for Monk to Barbarian and Rage or Rogues and sneak attack.
Barbarians are less effective without Rage, but they get d12 HD, get to use shields, and don't get penalized for wearing Medium armor. Also Rage lasts for a full minute. All the bonuses of being in Rage mode last for a full minute. Except for maybe the Astral Self Monk (at 17th level on, which most players don't normally play at), none of the Monks get to use Ki this efficiently. Note that Rage is a form of damage reduction as well, which boosts their d12 HD. Would you agree, then, that Monks should at least get d10 HD instead of a measly d8?
Sneak attacks are not limited. Rogues can use one SA per turn, but never run out of them. How is that even comparable to a limited resource like Ki?
I’m not expecting great changes in 2024 so I’m starting to be more convinced that the following fixes could beneficial and easy to implement.
1 make the core class Ki-less as I mentioned in post #89
2 Ki starting at 3rd level equal to monk level and only for subclass features.
3 increase damage die to d6, d8, d10, d12
4 monk a Dex only class. And DC’s based off Dex modifier. No more wisdom required
5 unarmored defense starts at 13+Dex. Then increases to 14, 15, and 16 +Dex at 5th, 11th, and 17th level.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I'd rather the option to wear light and medium armor alongside the normal unarmored defesne option, so STR and WIS(astral Self) monk would be viable.
Yeah the lack of STR monk is pretty big swing and miss IMO....its a really cool character idea and the class would have some cool things you could do with STR monk (Run up a wall with a grappled enemy) that you can't do with other classes.
I just feel like monk has a "sweet spot" that if you play in it is pretty fun but outside of that you feel a bit underwhelming....
I generally say monk has a high floor but a low ceiling and I stick by that.
I like that option as well. But would really hope to get away from MAD classes to make a variety of builds possible. Besides monks I think only rangers and paladins have two prerequisites for ability scores for multiclassing. I think it would be better if all classes had one primary stat leaving the other stats for players to do with as they wish for how they see their character.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Oh yeah would definitely create more unique characters and combos for sure.
I just want monks to gain more of an identity outside of combat. Mediocre fighter with no skill game is just sad.
Me, creating a team for a game on the Westmarch server I play on after getting approached by a monk who wants to join: "Hmm, you don't like to take a lot of hits, you don't deal a lot of damage, you don't have very good ranged game. You can at least do skill stuff right, help us out when we're not fighting? No, okay then."
Being Dexterity and Wisdom dependent actually gives Monks a pretty decent skills game already, as these ability scores cover a lot of very useful skills. I certainly wouldn't refuse a little something extra though!
I've recently been getting enormous mileage out of the Magical Guidance optional class feature for Sorcerer, where you can spend a Sorcery Point to re-roll any failed ability check. If we assume that additional features like that are likely to become default features in future, then one possibility would be to allow Monks to do the same using Ki, as it has same basic scaling and doesn't really step on the Sorcerer's toes (as they're still very different classes), though it might need to cost a little more or have another restriction since Ki reset on a short rest.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Rogues and Rangers get actual class abilities that help them succeed on these skill checks and are generally more able combatants in one form or another. It isn't a favorable comparison.
One could argue that the fact they get more feats is opportunity to be more applicable out of combat....a level 6 v. human fighter can have 3 feats which can impact your out of combat ability a lot if you want.
I would argue that Monks do not have that AND they do not get much non-combat features from their class or even from a lot of their subclasses....the newer monk subclasses aside as I think WotC is finally trying to do something about this with new subclasses so that is good.
Also monks are more MAD so their ASI need to be spent increasing ability scores and not taking feats as they will hurt the most from not doing so.
If you are in a feat-less game I think your point would be very valid though as the fighter would mostly be looking at maxing abilities and not have much outside of what their subclass/background provided.
But then at least WotC gave fighter more options with Tashas as well with Rune knight (advantage on a ton of different checks), Battlemaster (use superiority die on skill checks), and Skill Expert (ASI improvement/expertise)
Man a Ki Knack for physical/wisdom based skills would be amazing yeah...
You can spend a ki point to get ADV on Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Insight, or Perception. That would be a GREAT addition to monk for sure and I know it would create some great opportunity to use ki on combat light days.
I agree. I've been playing the Way of Mercy, which gets extra proficiencies, and even so, I don't feel like I can really do much when it's not monster kicking time. I'm worse at sneaking than our Rogue, worse at healing, knowing nature, and medicine than our Druid, worse at talking and worse at noticing things than our Wizard, and worse at taking or dealing damage than our Fighter. The fact that I can kind of do a little bit of each of these things is actually not helpful in the least. I need to be able to do something really well.
They don't though.... Monks don't get many non-combat stuff.
They get as many skills as a fighter with a much more pressing need to take ASI compared to fighter and fewer ASI to get there.
But fighters at least have a choice to take non-combat feats as they are one of the most single attribute dependant class in the game just behind Rogue.
Fighters even have better subclasses for out of combat stuf.... battlemaster can use die on skill checks now, rune Knight gets adv on several checks including tools potentially, psi die help psi Knight.
Overall monk has some subclasses that help but it's not much
That's all combat stuff tho.... Movement and Language are really the only thing that's non-combat. And the major complaint I have with movement being a "skill" is that you generally need something to do with it for it to be useful.
Like a fighter won't get fly or levitate at level 9 I get that .... But chances are the rest of the party will have something before 9th level to deal with movement based puzzles or the fighter could just be one of the flying races and the advantage is gone completely.
And the language stuff is like level 13?
95% of campaigns will end before that or will be 95% completed by that point... Long time to wait for utility.... And the fighter could have picked up ritual caster and comprehend languages if that's really that much needed with their extra ASI
Charms are mostly combat related and it's a grey area on what the monk knows about being charmed in the first place. They get indomitable so they are least get a chance to fight it.... Plus they can get WIS resilience feat with their extra ASI.
Poison immunity is combat or maybe trap related but we were discussing skills and utilities.... damage mitigation is hardly one of those.
I did read your post it's just mostly combat stuff