Outside of combat, the Monk's movement options (which don't come online early, mind you) are pretty easily replaced by having a rope.
And remember, any place that can only be reached by a Monk is a place where the Monk has to go alone. Speaking personally, I don't like my Monk's odds of handling literally any adventuring situation alone.
The language stuff is there, but it doesn't exactly feel all too "monk" to me to be honest.
The movement stuff is nice I'll admit, being able to easily avoid traps, pits, and climbing checks is a nice ability out of combat. I do question if it's enough at level 9 though. Although, a lot of martial classes don't have a lot of utility, so I guess something is better than nothing.
I guess a better question to ask would be what sort of out of combat abilities do you think a monk should have? After all, is that not the point of this thread*?
Outside of combat, the Monk's movement options (which don't come online early, mind you) are pretty easily replaced by having a rope.
And remember, any place that can only be reached by a Monk is a place where the Monk has to go alone. Speaking personally, I don't like my Monk's odds of handling literally any adventuring situation alone.
Or you have a flying race which negates most of the monks movement advantage.....
Also a rogue is effectively faster than a monk for the majority of games due to the facts:
1. 95% of their damage comes from their attack action vs. Monks need to utilize action/BA to compare in damage
2. Rogue's BA dash is free of charge....monk has to spend ki to dash and effectively limiting their future actions each time they choose to do so.
3. It takes the monk to level 9 to come close to a dashing rogue speed with basic movement action....90% of games end by 10th level.
Outside of combat, the Monk's movement options (which don't come online early, mind you) are pretty easily replaced by having a rope.
And remember, any place that can only be reached by a Monk is a place where the Monk has to go alone. Speaking personally, I don't like my Monk's odds of handling literally any adventuring situation alone.
Assuming you can fix the rope somewhere without getting there first. Aka only when going down somewhere. Which also takes a lot longer (you climb only at half speed if you don't have a climbing speed) which may be crucial. In every other case the Monk will be super useful to fix the rope to where you actually want to get or when climbing somewhere needs to be done fast.
Useful after level 9 you mean...otherwise since they generally favor DEX and Athletics (STR) checks are usually required for climbing I do not think they are particularly adept at climbing before that time.
Outside of combat, the Monk's movement options (which don't come online early, mind you) are pretty easily replaced by having a rope.
And remember, any place that can only be reached by a Monk is a place where the Monk has to go alone. Speaking personally, I don't like my Monk's odds of handling literally any adventuring situation alone.
Or you have a flying race which negates most of the monks movement advantage.....
Also a rogue is effectively faster than a monk for the majority of games due to the facts:
1. 95% of their damage comes from their attack action vs. Monks need to utilize action/BA to compare in damage
2. Rogue's BA dash is free of charge....monk has to spend ki to dash and effectively limiting their future actions each time they choose to do so.
3. It takes the monk to level 9 to come close to a dashing rogue speed with basic movement action....90% of games end by 10th level.
I mean sure, you could play a flying race but honestly that's only a viable solution if you approach DnD like a videogame where raw stats matter to you more than the character you're creating. That's like picking a race based off the ability scores they give which I know plenty DnD player did but which I never subscribed to. If the character I want to play is a Half-Orc I wouldn't give two shits about whether an Aarakocra would give me the ability to fly or whether another race would give me a bonus in an ability score that's more useful for whatever class I'm going to pick or whatever.
Agreed on the raw movement speed for Monk vs Rogue. I don't necessarily agree with the level 10 thing. In my experience the most common level range for campaigns goes up to 12 and you can still get a lot out of a feature in three levels unless the DM wants to wrap up things quickly.
They show that T1 makes up 62.5% of all characters with T2 at 26.9%. They broke it down further in the video and 90% of players fell below 10th level.
I factor this in a lot when people talk about skills/abilities with classes as I like to give real world expectations for players and design as I know that the vast majority of people will not play at levels 12+.
With the flying race thing I am just showing how relatively cheap movement is as a resource....its not hard to obtain with relatively low level investments. You can have all the mobility advantage of a monk with a racial choice or a 2 level dip in rogue and be MORE effective than the monk whos strength is suppose to be movement.
Language is also cheap IMO....things like Comprehend Languages is available at low levels to a lot of classes and it generally only takes one person to act as translator.
Heck even the ranger is better at this since they get so many language options at low levels and they get the adv of having expertise in a skill now thanks to Tashas.
So that leaves the charm thing which is niche but useful I will admit...but its hard to say WHEN that will be routinely useful.
And finally the poison thing which is fair I guess but honestly I see that as a combat mechanic 90% of the time....if you are getting poisoned every session out of combat y'all need to check your food better lol.
Outside of combat, the Monk's movement options (which don't come online early, mind you) are pretty easily replaced by having a rope.
And remember, any place that can only be reached by a Monk is a place where the Monk has to go alone. Speaking personally, I don't like my Monk's odds of handling literally any adventuring situation alone.
Assuming you can fix the rope somewhere without getting there first. Aka only when going down somewhere. Which also takes a lot longer (you climb only at half speed if you don't have a climbing speed) which may be crucial. In every other case the Monk will be super useful to fix the rope to where you actually want to get or when climbing somewhere needs to be done fast.
Useful after level 9 you mean...otherwise since they generally favor DEX and Athletics (STR) checks are usually required for climbing I do not think they are particularly adept at climbing before that time.
I never said they'd be before level 9. We didn't exactly put a min level requirement for the whole "having an identity outside of combat other than mediocre fighter" argument. Which I may add Fighters still can't do at level 9 anyway.
Minimal level would be where people play the game at....IMO at least.
Talking about the strength of a class at level 14 is a moot point for the vast majority of players who will not ever play a character to that level so it makes it pretty important when you talk about the design/balance of the classes....if the majority of your player base will not experience the "good" parts of a build then is it really good design?
Outside of combat, the Monk's movement options (which don't come online early, mind you) are pretty easily replaced by having a rope.
And remember, any place that can only be reached by a Monk is a place where the Monk has to go alone. Speaking personally, I don't like my Monk's odds of handling literally any adventuring situation alone.
Assuming you can fix the rope somewhere without getting there first. Aka only when going down somewhere. Which also takes a lot longer (you climb only at half speed if you don't have a climbing speed) which may be crucial. In every other case the Monk will be super useful to fix the rope to where you actually want to get or when climbing somewhere needs to be done fast.
Useful after level 9 you mean...otherwise since they generally favor DEX and Athletics (STR) checks are usually required for climbing I do not think they are particularly adept at climbing before that time.
I never said they'd be before level 9. We didn't exactly put a min level requirement for the whole "having an identity outside of combat other than mediocre fighter" argument. Which I may add Fighters still can't do at level 9 anyway.
Minimal level would be where people play the game at....IMO at least.
Talking about the strength of a class at level 14 is a moot point for the vast majority of players who will not ever play a character to that level so it makes it pretty important when you talk about the design/balance of the classes....if the majority of your player base will not experience the "good" parts of a build then is it really good design?
Yes and no. Pushing everything that matters into level 1-12 would just make every class super frontloaded and give even less reason to play past those levels. A terrible idea imo. Classes should offer something interesting for any level range.
Thats fair but Monk is one that is definitely "back loaded" where most of the useful out of combat abilities come at a level too late to appreciate for most players.....this is why its poorly designed IMO.
And why people think it needs more compelling out of combat choices early on.
Outside of combat, the Monk's movement options (which don't come online early, mind you) are pretty easily replaced by having a rope.
And remember, any place that can only be reached by a Monk is a place where the Monk has to go alone. Speaking personally, I don't like my Monk's odds of handling literally any adventuring situation alone.
Assuming you can fix the rope somewhere without getting there first. Aka only when going down somewhere. Which also takes a lot longer (you climb only at half speed if you don't have a climbing speed) which may be crucial. In every other case the Monk will be super useful to fix the rope to where you actually want to get or when climbing somewhere needs to be done fast.
Useful after level 9 you mean...otherwise since they generally favor DEX and Athletics (STR) checks are usually required for climbing I do not think they are particularly adept at climbing before that time.
I never said they'd be before level 9. We didn't exactly put a min level requirement for the whole "having an identity outside of combat other than mediocre fighter" argument. Which I may add Fighters still can't do at level 9 anyway.
Minimal level would be where people play the game at....IMO at least.
Talking about the strength of a class at level 14 is a moot point for the vast majority of players who will not ever play a character to that level so it makes it pretty important when you talk about the design/balance of the classes....if the majority of your player base will not experience the "good" parts of a build then is it really good design?
Yes and no. Pushing everything that matters into level 1-12 would just make every class super frontloaded and give even less reason to play past those levels. A terrible idea imo. Classes should offer something interesting for any level range.
Thats fair but Monk is one that is definitely "back loaded" where most of the useful out of combat abilities come at a level too late to appreciate for most players.....this is why its poorly designed IMO.
And why people think it needs more compelling out of combat choices early on.
That's fair too. It could definitely use some more love earlier.
Basically I think that's what the initial call was for but I could be misremembering
Imagine if stunning strike happened at level 9 and wall/water running happened at level 5. That provides an earlier uniqueness both in and out of combat compared to other martials. Casters get fly at this time, so the power level is appropriate. The down side is WIS-based monks would be far less effective for levels 5-8. Stunning strike comes online when there is more ki available.
Diamond Soul could be split up. There are 7 saving throws (each attribute +death). Choose 5 different levels (such as when ASI are earned) to get the ability “Choose a saving throw to gain proficiency in.” That gives a taste of the ability around the same time as the paladin’s aura. The re-roll for a ki point could still be around level 14.
Such changes would not affect level 20 builds, but would provide more fun and flavor earlier.
Rogues and Rangers get actual class abilities that help them succeed on these skill checks and are generally more able combatants in one form or another. It isn't a favorable comparison.
You were talking about an identity outside of combat so being a more able combatant in general is a non-argument here.
Also the intend wasn't to create a necessarily favorable comparison, just a more fitting one. Yes Rogues and Rangers get abilities that help them succeed skill checks but they also can't run up walls at speeds greater than anything else or can just jump down from roofs or trees or whatever without breaking a leg. Or be immune to poison (Rangers can remove it via magic but they have very limited amount of spell slots and known spells and it still requires very obvious V and S components to cast it). Or remove charms at will. Or understand and speak any language. Or fight well after getting disarmed.
They can do other things and that's fine. It's pretty much the definition of having an identity.
Fighters with their base class get literally nothing that helps them with anything outside of combat unless they take specific feats for their additional ASIs (as we know stat increases usually get used to increase their combat ability so likely STR/DEX and CON anyway). So the comparison with Fighters when it comes to what they can do outside of combat is just very off. Monks have MUCH more of an identity than just being mediocre Fighters outside of combat.
That wasn't meant to be a point against their lack of non-combat identity, it was more a point that they don't even get crazy combat superiority to make up for it.
You seem really hung up on use of movement speed outside of combat. Choir is correct. Mundane equipment like rope makes most of that not very special at all outside of combat.
And the rest of those abilities come on entirely too late to be relevant at all. I am so tired of people bringing up a 12th+ level ability like it has any actual effect on what it is like to play your character throughout their career.
I just want monks to gain more of an identity outside of combat. Mediocre fighter with no skill game is just sad.
Me, creating a team for a game on the Westmarch server I play on after getting approached by a monk who wants to join: "Hmm, you don't like to take a lot of hits, you don't deal a lot of damage, you don't have very good ranged game. You can at least do skill stuff right, help us out when we're not fighting? No, okay then."
I agree. I've been playing the Way of Mercy, which gets extra proficiencies, and even so, I don't feel like I can really do much when it's not monster kicking time. I'm worse at sneaking than our Rogue, worse at healing, knowing nature, and medicine than our Druid, worse at talking and worse at noticing things than our Wizard, and worse at taking or dealing damage than our Fighter. The fact that I can kind of do a little bit of each of these things is actually not helpful in the least. I need to be able to do something really well.
oh hey! nice. Yeah there was no way I was going back and reading all of this lol. Unfortunately that's exactly where I find monks...not doing anything overly well, and also not really that versatile. In an environment where I'm constantly trying to put together teams of people that help fulfill a certain roll, including a monk on the team constantly means the rest of the team is taxed in how much they have to contribute in whatever rolls they are there to fill.
I somewhat agree with Hieronymous. The Monk really doesn't have an identity in D&D outside of combat. This is in part because they have been mulit-stat-dependent from their inception in earlier editions and in part because the pop culture understanding of (Asian) martial arts plays primarily to action movies from Hong Kong. As far as the main English-speaking audience of D&D is concerned, a Monk is really just a somebody who "does" kung fu. Nevermind that there are over a dozen unarmed or minimally-armed fighting styles if you just look at two countries: China and Japan. In the original East Asian context, most monks are like religious figures. You could say that their counterpart in West European culture would be the priest or nun. Monks that specialized their training in combat were relatively few. People who really took their unarmed fighting experience to the next level were mostly people who did not consider themselves "monks" because most became soldier and spies. Their identity was tied up with the jobs that earned them a title, land, or affiliation with a powerful family. Then, when those occupations became highly regimented and specialized due to modernization and the introduction of mass-produced firearms, unarmed fighting became a cultural refuge, a way of maintaining family tradition or a method for the poor to learn self-defense.
I apologize for being a bit long-winded, but this is a round-about way of saying that the "identity" issue of the Monk in D&D is related to the poorly-defined images of the martial arts master in the West European cultural imagination, which in turn is limited by the fact that media about martial-arts practicing people has been a relatively narrow genre.
This contributes little directly to the discussion of "the Monk" in D&D, but I felt it was important to be clear that context in which we are having this conversation is itself informed by the types of images which get commercialized and which are easier to sell to cultures that still often regard "the Orient" as strange, separate and exotic. Because otherwise, the Monk might very well have been folded into the Fighter, Rogue, and/or Cleric classes a long time ago.
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To each their own I guess!
Outside of combat, the Monk's movement options (which don't come online early, mind you) are pretty easily replaced by having a rope.
And remember, any place that can only be reached by a Monk is a place where the Monk has to go alone. Speaking personally, I don't like my Monk's odds of handling literally any adventuring situation alone.
The language stuff is there, but it doesn't exactly feel all too "monk" to me to be honest.
The movement stuff is nice I'll admit, being able to easily avoid traps, pits, and climbing checks is a nice ability out of combat. I do question if it's enough at level 9 though. Although, a lot of martial classes don't have a lot of utility, so I guess something is better than nothing.
I guess a better question to ask would be what sort of out of combat abilities do you think a monk should have? After all, is that not the point of this thread*?
(*to discuss what the monks should have)
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Or you have a flying race which negates most of the monks movement advantage.....
Also a rogue is effectively faster than a monk for the majority of games due to the facts:
1. 95% of their damage comes from their attack action vs. Monks need to utilize action/BA to compare in damage
2. Rogue's BA dash is free of charge....monk has to spend ki to dash and effectively limiting their future actions each time they choose to do so.
3. It takes the monk to level 9 to come close to a dashing rogue speed with basic movement action....90% of games end by 10th level.
Useful after level 9 you mean...otherwise since they generally favor DEX and Athletics (STR) checks are usually required for climbing I do not think they are particularly adept at climbing before that time.
I am using DnD Beyonds data:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/90-of-d-d-games-stop-by-level-10-wizards-more-popular-at-higher-levels.666097/
They show that T1 makes up 62.5% of all characters with T2 at 26.9%. They broke it down further in the video and 90% of players fell below 10th level.
I factor this in a lot when people talk about skills/abilities with classes as I like to give real world expectations for players and design as I know that the vast majority of people will not play at levels 12+.
With the flying race thing I am just showing how relatively cheap movement is as a resource....its not hard to obtain with relatively low level investments. You can have all the mobility advantage of a monk with a racial choice or a 2 level dip in rogue and be MORE effective than the monk whos strength is suppose to be movement.
Language is also cheap IMO....things like Comprehend Languages is available at low levels to a lot of classes and it generally only takes one person to act as translator.
Heck even the ranger is better at this since they get so many language options at low levels and they get the adv of having expertise in a skill now thanks to Tashas.
So that leaves the charm thing which is niche but useful I will admit...but its hard to say WHEN that will be routinely useful.
And finally the poison thing which is fair I guess but honestly I see that as a combat mechanic 90% of the time....if you are getting poisoned every session out of combat y'all need to check your food better lol.
Minimal level would be where people play the game at....IMO at least.
Talking about the strength of a class at level 14 is a moot point for the vast majority of players who will not ever play a character to that level so it makes it pretty important when you talk about the design/balance of the classes....if the majority of your player base will not experience the "good" parts of a build then is it really good design?
Thats fair but Monk is one that is definitely "back loaded" where most of the useful out of combat abilities come at a level too late to appreciate for most players.....this is why its poorly designed IMO.
And why people think it needs more compelling out of combat choices early on.
Basically I think that's what the initial call was for but I could be misremembering
What about adjusting when abilities are gained?
Imagine if stunning strike happened at level 9 and wall/water running happened at level 5. That provides an earlier uniqueness both in and out of combat compared to other martials. Casters get fly at this time, so the power level is appropriate. The down side is WIS-based monks would be far less effective for levels 5-8. Stunning strike comes online when there is more ki available.
Diamond Soul could be split up. There are 7 saving throws (each attribute +death). Choose 5 different levels (such as when ASI are earned) to get the ability “Choose a saving throw to gain proficiency in.” That gives a taste of the ability around the same time as the paladin’s aura. The re-roll for a ki point could still be around level 14.
Such changes would not affect level 20 builds, but would provide more fun and flavor earlier.
That wasn't meant to be a point against their lack of non-combat identity, it was more a point that they don't even get crazy combat superiority to make up for it.
You seem really hung up on use of movement speed outside of combat. Choir is correct. Mundane equipment like rope makes most of that not very special at all outside of combat.
And the rest of those abilities come on entirely too late to be relevant at all. I am so tired of people bringing up a 12th+ level ability like it has any actual effect on what it is like to play your character throughout their career.
Monks have mediocre skill game. End of story
oh hey! nice. Yeah there was no way I was going back and reading all of this lol. Unfortunately that's exactly where I find monks...not doing anything overly well, and also not really that versatile. In an environment where I'm constantly trying to put together teams of people that help fulfill a certain roll, including a monk on the team constantly means the rest of the team is taxed in how much they have to contribute in whatever rolls they are there to fill.
I somewhat agree with Hieronymous. The Monk really doesn't have an identity in D&D outside of combat. This is in part because they have been mulit-stat-dependent from their inception in earlier editions and in part because the pop culture understanding of (Asian) martial arts plays primarily to action movies from Hong Kong. As far as the main English-speaking audience of D&D is concerned, a Monk is really just a somebody who "does" kung fu. Nevermind that there are over a dozen unarmed or minimally-armed fighting styles if you just look at two countries: China and Japan. In the original East Asian context, most monks are like religious figures. You could say that their counterpart in West European culture would be the priest or nun. Monks that specialized their training in combat were relatively few. People who really took their unarmed fighting experience to the next level were mostly people who did not consider themselves "monks" because most became soldier and spies. Their identity was tied up with the jobs that earned them a title, land, or affiliation with a powerful family. Then, when those occupations became highly regimented and specialized due to modernization and the introduction of mass-produced firearms, unarmed fighting became a cultural refuge, a way of maintaining family tradition or a method for the poor to learn self-defense.
I apologize for being a bit long-winded, but this is a round-about way of saying that the "identity" issue of the Monk in D&D is related to the poorly-defined images of the martial arts master in the West European cultural imagination, which in turn is limited by the fact that media about martial-arts practicing people has been a relatively narrow genre.
This contributes little directly to the discussion of "the Monk" in D&D, but I felt it was important to be clear that context in which we are having this conversation is itself informed by the types of images which get commercialized and which are easier to sell to cultures that still often regard "the Orient" as strange, separate and exotic. Because otherwise, the Monk might very well have been folded into the Fighter, Rogue, and/or Cleric classes a long time ago.