For this comparison i am using Arcane trickster and eldritch knight since they get get spell slots as additional resources on top of their basic class abilities, but 4 elements monk gets no such additional resources. 4 elements is stuck using the same limited resource pool for basic class and subclass features.
Based on the current rules, this is how much a spell slot is worth in ki points for the 4 elements monk.
Level 1 spell = 2ki points
Level 2 spell = 3ki points
Level 3 spell = 4ki points
Level 4 spell = 5ki points
Level 5 spell = 6 ki points
Based on that, we can convert the spell slots of eldritch knight/arcane trickster at 20th level if they were to cast those spells using ki points.
4 level one spells = 8ki points
3 level two spells = 9ki points
3 level three spells = 12 ki points
1 level four spell = 5 ki points
That means to match the value of what an eldritch knight or arcane trickster gets in spell slots at 20th level, the 4 elements monk should be getting an extra 34 EXTRA KI POINTS PER LONG REST, purely for the purpose of casting spells/elemental disciplines.
Since 4 elements monk has access to fifth level spells then add 6 more ki points to cast one of those per day.
Thats 40 ki points, or 2 extra per monk level that a 4 elements monk should be getting as additional resources for their subclass abilities. These ki points can only can only be used for elemental disciplines and spells and would reset on a long rest.
THAT IS HOW MUCH THE 4 ELEMENTS MONK GOT THE SHAFT BY THE DESIGNERS.
The problem of course is that one could hypothetically use all the extra ki for casting higher level spells, so the following table based on the Spells and Ki points table from the PHB caps that issue.
Max number of Spells per Spell Level
Monk Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
3rd-4th 2
5th- 8th 3 2
9th-12th 4 2 2
13th-16th 4 3 2 1
17th + 4 3 3 2 1
So if you want to play 4 elements monk you should probably just give yourself the spell slots ftom the table above. But if you wanted to stick to the theme of using ki, you would keep your regular ki points that reset on a short rest but ALSO add two extra ki points per level for elemental discipline use only, that would reset on a long rest. Then you would finally have a fair value on 4 elements monk. (Also give access to more disciplines too!)
Or separate 4 elements monk casting completely from Ki and give them a spell progression somewhere between an eldritch knight/arcane trickster and a ranger/paladin.
Really you could stand to drop the 5th level spells completely if there were better options added for the other selections. I mean 2 walls, cone of cold and an explicitly worse option with stoneskin for 5 ki than the basic monk ability empty body for 4 ki (1 level later) and you turn invisible not just the defense.
Give the class 2 cantrips, the one it gets initially: elemental attunement and a choice and maybe even a 3rd at later levels. Then open up more than the wizard list and include more elemental spells. Also why limit to the one element array? What happened to wood, metal and space?
Not meaning to defend the Way of 4 Elements, as we all know it’s crap… but the Monk gets all its Ki back on a short rest, similar to how a warlock works… neither the trickster or Eldritch knight get spells back on short rest.
with that being said, your monk is useless if you spend all your ki points on spell-like abilities… it really just needs a separate pool to cast spells outside of Ki
I completely agree. Why tie the sub-class abilities to the same resources as the main class so that you do one or the other? Most, if not all, (I can't think of another off hand but I'm sure there has to be another) sub-classes have their own thing (spell selections, resistances, saving throws, etc.).
The only other class I can think of that uses the same resource as a subclass is the Druid, with the Wildfire and Stars that use their Wild Shape to summon or manifest themselves as something else... and on top of that they still have their spells to fall back ontop of. Wildshape uses are situational for most Druids inside of combat, with the exception of the Moon Druid obviously, so it really doesn't take much away from them to use that subclass ability
But yes, we are in agreement there. When you take a subclass, it shouldn't take away from the core mechanics of that class, which is the biggest issue with most of the Subclass's of Four Elements, Sun Soul, Astral Self, Dragon and to a lesser extent Cobalt. Open Palm, Mercy, Kensei and even Long Death at least have the ADDITION to their regular use of Ki points they get to do something (excluding some of the higher level abilities). Shadow Monk is somewhere in between, with its abilities to cast spells, to a limited capacity for utility spells for 2 Ki points, but with the exception of Darkness they aren't spells you use in combat and can use more freely.
Four Elements is actually somewhere in between a half caster and a third caster, because they get all their Ki back on short rest.
Personally I don't think the sub-class is that bad, the main problem is that it doesn't have quite enough Ki points for the extra demands of casting; if they got extra Ki per long rest that can only be used on casting, maybe proficiency bonus or even half class level then this would make it possible to do some casting without interfering with your ability to use core Monk features.
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Another funny thing is that you get an incredible small amount of spells/spell-like disciplines you can use, including Elemental Attunement (which is mandatory), you only get to have 5 at lvl 17 and you can only swap them at levels 6, 11 and 17. Way of Shadow monk gets a cantrip and 4 spells level 2 spells (so it's on par with full casters spell progression at this point) and they only cost 2 ki points instead of the 3 it would cost if they were spells for the Four Elements monk. Worst part is, they are from the same book, so we cannot say that one powercreeps the other because of separate releases (quite frankly, I think WotC has different people designing subclasses and never review their work)
Another funny thing is that you get an incredible small amount of spells/spell-like disciplines you can use, including Elemental Attunement (which is mandatory), you only get to have 5 at lvl 17 and you can only swap them at levels 6, 11 and 17. Way of Shadow monk gets a cantrip and 4 spells level 2 spells (so it's on par with full casters spell progression at this point) and they only cost 2 ki points instead of the 3 it would cost if they were spells for the Four Elements monk. Worst part is, they are from the same book, so we cannot say that one powercreeps the other because of separate releases (quite frankly, I think WotC has different people designing subclasses and never review their work)
On top of that they have a very small pool of spells to choose from in the first place. Even after Xanathar's printed a bunch of element-focused spells and Tasha's introduced optional class features (including expanded spell lists for classes), the Four Elements monk never got any additions.
So in addition to having only a handful of spells to play with, you dont get that much versatility in your spell choices to begin with. On top of everything else, the subclass needs more discipline options to choose from (including a few more monk specific ones)
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Another funny thing is that you get an incredible small amount of spells/spell-like disciplines you can use, including Elemental Attunement (which is mandatory), you only get to have 5 at lvl 17 and you can only swap them at levels 6, 11 and 17. Way of Shadow monk gets a cantrip and 4 spells level 2 spells (so it's on par with full casters spell progression at this point) and they only cost 2 ki points instead of the 3 it would cost if they were spells for the Four Elements monk. Worst part is, they are from the same book, so we cannot say that one powercreeps the other because of separate releases (quite frankly, I think WotC has different people designing subclasses and never review their work)
On top of that they have a very small pool of spells to choose from in the first place. Even after Xanathar's printed a bunch of element-focused spells and Tasha's introduced optional class features (including expanded spell lists for classes), the Four Elements monk never got any additions.
So in addition to having only a handful of spells to play with, you dont get that much versatility in your spell choices to begin with. On top of everything else, the subclass needs more discipline options to choose from (including a few more monk specific ones)
Agreed. Arcane trickster and eldritch knight each get up to 13 spells known and some additional cantrips but 4 elements monk gets only 5 disciplines. Thats just terrible.
For this comparison i am using Arcane trickster and eldritch knight since they get get spell slots as additional resources on top of their basic class abilities, but 4 elements monk gets no such additional resources. 4 elements is stuck using the same limited resource pool for basic class and subclass features.
Based on the current rules, this is how much a spell slot is worth in ki points for the 4 elements monk.
Level 1 spell = 2ki points
Level 2 spell = 3ki points
Level 3 spell = 4ki points
Level 4 spell = 5ki points
Level 5 spell = 6 ki points
Based on that, we can convert the spell slots of eldritch knight/arcane trickster at 20th level if they were to cast those spells using ki points.
4 level one spells = 8ki points
3 level two spells = 9ki points
3 level three spells = 12 ki points
1 level four spell = 5 ki points
That means to match the value of what an eldritch knight or arcane trickster gets in spell slots at 20th level, the 4 elements monk should be getting an extra 34 EXTRA KI POINTS PER LONG REST, purely for the purpose of casting spells/elemental disciplines.
Since 4 elements monk has access to fifth level spells then add 6 more ki points to cast one of those per day.
Thats 40 ki points, or 2 extra per monk level that a 4 elements monk should be getting as additional resources for their subclass abilities. These ki points can only can only be used for elemental disciplines and spells and would reset on a long rest.
THAT IS HOW MUCH THE 4 ELEMENTS MONK GOT THE SHAFT BY THE DESIGNERS.
The problem of course is that one could hypothetically use all the extra ki for casting higher level spells, so the following table based on the Spells and Ki points table from the PHB caps that issue.
Max number of Spells per Spell Level
Monk Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
3rd-4th 2
5th- 8th 3 2
9th-12th 4 2 2
13th-16th 4 3 2 1
17th + 4 3 3 2 1
So if you want to play 4 elements monk you should probably just give yourself the spell slots ftom the table above. But if you wanted to stick to the theme of using ki, you would keep your regular ki points that reset on a short rest but ALSO add two extra ki points per level for elemental discipline use only, that would reset on a long rest. Then you would finally have a fair value on 4 elements monk. (Also give access to more disciplines too!)
Enjoy.
As already mentioned, they get their Ki back on a short rest so even if you only take one short rest, which is reasonable, unless your DM is doing a survival/gritty realism campaign, that’s already 40 Ki per long rest. Two short rests before you long rest, that’s 60 Ki to cast ED’s compared to EK/AT spell slots.
And I understand the 4E monks have issues, I even posted my own revision of 4E on this forum (I really need to go back and rework it as it’s probably overpowered as is). But personally I don’t like the idea of monks casting spells (with slots or as EDs) and wish they had more unique EDs like Fangs of the Fire Snake, Fist of Unbroken Air, etc.
Edit: Also Elemental Attunement should be a subclass feature and not an ED at all so you can use that ED known for a different one from level 3. And the number of ED’s known should be doubled since it is already restricted by Ki points. I don’t think that would be too unbalanced.
For this comparison i am using Arcane trickster and eldritch knight since they get get spell slots as additional resources on top of their basic class abilities, but 4 elements monk gets no such additional resources. 4 elements is stuck using the same limited resource pool for basic class and subclass features.
Based on the current rules, this is how much a spell slot is worth in ki points for the 4 elements monk.
Level 1 spell = 2ki points
Level 2 spell = 3ki points
Level 3 spell = 4ki points
Level 4 spell = 5ki points
Level 5 spell = 6 ki points
Based on that, we can convert the spell slots of eldritch knight/arcane trickster at 20th level if they were to cast those spells using ki points.
4 level one spells = 8ki points
3 level two spells = 9ki points
3 level three spells = 12 ki points
1 level four spell = 5 ki points
That means to match the value of what an eldritch knight or arcane trickster gets in spell slots at 20th level, the 4 elements monk should be getting an extra 34 EXTRA KI POINTS PER LONG REST, purely for the purpose of casting spells/elemental disciplines.
Since 4 elements monk has access to fifth level spells then add 6 more ki points to cast one of those per day.
Thats 40 ki points, or 2 extra per monk level that a 4 elements monk should be getting as additional resources for their subclass abilities. These ki points can only can only be used for elemental disciplines and spells and would reset on a long rest.
THAT IS HOW MUCH THE 4 ELEMENTS MONK GOT THE SHAFT BY THE DESIGNERS.
The problem of course is that one could hypothetically use all the extra ki for casting higher level spells, so the following table based on the Spells and Ki points table from the PHB caps that issue.
Max number of Spells per Spell Level
Monk Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
3rd-4th 2
5th- 8th 3 2
9th-12th 4 2 2
13th-16th 4 3 2 1
17th + 4 3 3 2 1
So if you want to play 4 elements monk you should probably just give yourself the spell slots ftom the table above. But if you wanted to stick to the theme of using ki, you would keep your regular ki points that reset on a short rest but ALSO add two extra ki points per level for elemental discipline use only, that would reset on a long rest. Then you would finally have a fair value on 4 elements monk. (Also give access to more disciplines too!)
Enjoy.
As already mentioned, they get their Ki back on a short rest so even if you only take one short rest, which is reasonable, unless your DM is doing a survival/gritty realism campaign, that’s already 40 Ki per long rest. Two short rests before you long rest, that’s 60 Ki to cast ED’s compared to EK/AT spell slots.
And I understand the 4E monks have issues, I even posted my own revision of 4E on this forum (I really need to go back and rework it as it’s probably overpowered as is). But personally I don’t like the idea of monks casting spells (with slots or as EDs) and wish they had more unique EDs like Fangs of the Fire Snake, Fist of Unbroken Air, etc.
Edit: Also Elemental Attunement should be a subclass feature and not an ED at all so you can use that ED known for a different one from level 3. And the number of ED’s known should be doubled since it is already restricted by Ki points. I don’t think that would be too unbalanced.
Yes, more elemental disciplines definately. I also like the idea of more abilities that are not spells, like fangs of fire snake, to enhance the flavor and usefullness of the subclass.
But even if you do have a campaign that gets two short rests its still not balanced to the value of what eldritch knight and arcane trickster get with spell slots. The issue is that eldritch knight and arcane trickster got subclass spells in addition to subclass abilities. Because 4 elements monk uses the same resource pool (ki) to cast spells, then any spells cast, negate the monks ability to use basic monk features. Especially at low lower levels where most campaigns happen. Imagine if an eldritch knight cast a spell but it took away their ability to use action surge or second wind. Thats what it feels like playing 4 elements. Cast a spell and now you no longer can use stunning strike or flurry of blows. I know resource management is an issue with monks but i think this goes beyond that.
So all i am saying is even with two short rests, i think a player would be totally justified in adding spell slots or a separate ki pool for elemental disciplines only.
In the end i think i am just frustrated because i really want to like the 4e monk but the design flaws hurt the subclass too much.
But i guess that is what homebrew is for......
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For this comparison i am using Arcane trickster and eldritch knight since they get get spell slots as additional resources on top of their basic class abilities, but 4 elements monk gets no such additional resources. 4 elements is stuck using the same limited resource pool for basic class and subclass features.
Based on the current rules, this is how much a spell slot is worth in ki points for the 4 elements monk.
Level 1 spell = 2ki points
Level 2 spell = 3ki points
Level 3 spell = 4ki points
Level 4 spell = 5ki points
Level 5 spell = 6 ki points
Based on that, we can convert the spell slots of eldritch knight/arcane trickster at 20th level if they were to cast those spells using ki points.
4 level one spells = 8ki points
3 level two spells = 9ki points
3 level three spells = 12 ki points
1 level four spell = 5 ki points
That means to match the value of what an eldritch knight or arcane trickster gets in spell slots at 20th level, the 4 elements monk should be getting an extra 34 EXTRA KI POINTS PER LONG REST, purely for the purpose of casting spells/elemental disciplines.
Since 4 elements monk has access to fifth level spells then add 6 more ki points to cast one of those per day.
Thats 40 ki points, or 2 extra per monk level that a 4 elements monk should be getting as additional resources for their subclass abilities. These ki points can only can only be used for elemental disciplines and spells and would reset on a long rest.
THAT IS HOW MUCH THE 4 ELEMENTS MONK GOT THE SHAFT BY THE DESIGNERS.
The problem of course is that one could hypothetically use all the extra ki for casting higher level spells, so the following table based on the Spells and Ki points table from the PHB caps that issue.
Max number of Spells per Spell Level
Monk Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
3rd-4th 2
5th- 8th 3 2
9th-12th 4 2 2
13th-16th 4 3 2 1
17th + 4 3 3 2 1
So if you want to play 4 elements monk you should probably just give yourself the spell slots ftom the table above. But if you wanted to stick to the theme of using ki, you would keep your regular ki points that reset on a short rest but ALSO add two extra ki points per level for elemental discipline use only, that would reset on a long rest. Then you would finally have a fair value on 4 elements monk. (Also give access to more disciplines too!)
Enjoy.
Or separate 4 elements monk casting completely from Ki and give them a spell progression somewhere between an eldritch knight/arcane trickster and a ranger/paladin.
Really you could stand to drop the 5th level spells completely if there were better options added for the other selections. I mean 2 walls, cone of cold and an explicitly worse option with stoneskin for 5 ki than the basic monk ability empty body for 4 ki (1 level later) and you turn invisible not just the defense.
Give the class 2 cantrips, the one it gets initially: elemental attunement and a choice and maybe even a 3rd at later levels. Then open up more than the wizard list and include more elemental spells. Also why limit to the one element array? What happened to wood, metal and space?
Not meaning to defend the Way of 4 Elements, as we all know it’s crap… but the Monk gets all its Ki back on a short rest, similar to how a warlock works… neither the trickster or Eldritch knight get spells back on short rest.
with that being said, your monk is useless if you spend all your ki points on spell-like abilities… it really just needs a separate pool to cast spells outside of Ki
I completely agree. Why tie the sub-class abilities to the same resources as the main class so that you do one or the other? Most, if not all, (I can't think of another off hand but I'm sure there has to be another) sub-classes have their own thing (spell selections, resistances, saving throws, etc.).
The only other class I can think of that uses the same resource as a subclass is the Druid, with the Wildfire and Stars that use their Wild Shape to summon or manifest themselves as something else... and on top of that they still have their spells to fall back ontop of. Wildshape uses are situational for most Druids inside of combat, with the exception of the Moon Druid obviously, so it really doesn't take much away from them to use that subclass ability
But yes, we are in agreement there. When you take a subclass, it shouldn't take away from the core mechanics of that class, which is the biggest issue with most of the Subclass's of Four Elements, Sun Soul, Astral Self, Dragon and to a lesser extent Cobalt. Open Palm, Mercy, Kensei and even Long Death at least have the ADDITION to their regular use of Ki points they get to do something (excluding some of the higher level abilities). Shadow Monk is somewhere in between, with its abilities to cast spells, to a limited capacity for utility spells for 2 Ki points, but with the exception of Darkness they aren't spells you use in combat and can use more freely.
Four Elements is actually somewhere in between a half caster and a third caster, because they get all their Ki back on short rest.
Personally I don't think the sub-class is that bad, the main problem is that it doesn't have quite enough Ki points for the extra demands of casting; if they got extra Ki per long rest that can only be used on casting, maybe proficiency bonus or even half class level then this would make it possible to do some casting without interfering with your ability to use core Monk features.
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Another funny thing is that you get an incredible small amount of spells/spell-like disciplines you can use, including Elemental Attunement (which is mandatory), you only get to have 5 at lvl 17 and you can only swap them at levels 6, 11 and 17. Way of Shadow monk gets a cantrip and 4 spells level 2 spells (so it's on par with full casters spell progression at this point) and they only cost 2 ki points instead of the 3 it would cost if they were spells for the Four Elements monk. Worst part is, they are from the same book, so we cannot say that one powercreeps the other because of separate releases (quite frankly, I think WotC has different people designing subclasses and never review their work)
On top of that they have a very small pool of spells to choose from in the first place. Even after Xanathar's printed a bunch of element-focused spells and Tasha's introduced optional class features (including expanded spell lists for classes), the Four Elements monk never got any additions.
So in addition to having only a handful of spells to play with, you dont get that much versatility in your spell choices to begin with. On top of everything else, the subclass needs more discipline options to choose from (including a few more monk specific ones)
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Agreed. Arcane trickster and eldritch knight each get up to 13 spells known and some additional cantrips but 4 elements monk gets only 5 disciplines. Thats just terrible.
As already mentioned, they get their Ki back on a short rest so even if you only take one short rest, which is reasonable, unless your DM is doing a survival/gritty realism campaign, that’s already 40 Ki per long rest. Two short rests before you long rest, that’s 60 Ki to cast ED’s compared to EK/AT spell slots.
And I understand the 4E monks have issues, I even posted my own revision of 4E on this forum (I really need to go back and rework it as it’s probably overpowered as is). But personally I don’t like the idea of monks casting spells (with slots or as EDs) and wish they had more unique EDs like Fangs of the Fire Snake, Fist of Unbroken Air, etc.
Edit: Also Elemental Attunement should be a subclass feature and not an ED at all so you can use that ED known for a different one from level 3. And the number of ED’s known should be doubled since it is already restricted by Ki points. I don’t think that would be too unbalanced.
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Yes, more elemental disciplines definately. I also like the idea of more abilities that are not spells, like fangs of fire snake, to enhance the flavor and usefullness of the subclass.
But even if you do have a campaign that gets two short rests its still not balanced to the value of what eldritch knight and arcane trickster get with spell slots. The issue is that eldritch knight and arcane trickster got subclass spells in addition to subclass abilities. Because 4 elements monk uses the same resource pool (ki) to cast spells, then any spells cast, negate the monks ability to use basic monk features. Especially at low lower levels where most campaigns happen. Imagine if an eldritch knight cast a spell but it took away their ability to use action surge or second wind. Thats what it feels like playing 4 elements. Cast a spell and now you no longer can use stunning strike or flurry of blows. I know resource management is an issue with monks but i think this goes beyond that.
So all i am saying is even with two short rests, i think a player would be totally justified in adding spell slots or a separate ki pool for elemental disciplines only.
In the end i think i am just frustrated because i really want to like the 4e monk but the design flaws hurt the subclass too much.
But i guess that is what homebrew is for......