The unarmored, lightly armed monk should excel at speed rather than force, in my view. That translates to more attacks rather than more damage per attack. So, I would rather see more attacks added to the Flurry than scale up the damage dice. I agree with folks here who referenced earlier versions of the monk that had more attacks per round than the fighter. They should: an unarmored martial artist should significantly outmaneuver a heavily armored fighter wielding heavy weapons in terms of the number of hits they can deliver, while I would expect the fighter to deal significantly more damage per hit.
The unarmored, lightly armed monk should excel at speed rather than force, in my view. That translates to more attacks rather than more damage per attack. So, I would rather see more attacks added to the Flurry than scale up the damage dice. I agree with folks here who referenced earlier versions of the monk that had more attacks per round than the fighter. They should: an unarmored martial artist should significantly outmaneuver a heavily armored fighter wielding heavy weapons in terms of the number of hits they can deliver, while I would expect the fighter to deal significantly more damage per hit.
ya I agree in general with your thoughts on this however, I think the martials die still needs to scale a little better because it needs to substitute magic weapons. the unarmed attacks should be stronger for the monk cause often magic weapons are just too good and many monk features don't work with your weapon . I think at level 20 your fist as a monk should be on par with a magical weapon and reward people for not multiclassing .As it is, your monk will be stronger as a multiclass.
They don't need to scale up the die, which would have a minimal effect in any case (you only gain one point of average damage per tier); they just need to create a +X magic weapon/item for unarmed attacks. Plus over half of a Monk's attacks are not required to be unarmed and they can apply all the benefits of Martial Arts, including damage die, so it's not like the class is categorically unable to make use of magic weapons.
1d10+5 x 4 (24-60dmg) <Low damage for level 20? yes... but these weapons cannot be stolen and (at level 6) count as magical to get past resistances.
Lv 17 Quivering Palm: Con Save (max 19) On Fail: Target drops to 0HP. On Success: 10d10 damage. <INSTANT Death for 3 Ki points... or 10-100 damage and you get to do it five times is not underpowered.
Lv 5 Stunning Strike: Stuns target till end of your next turn. <This is an 8th level spell that you get at level 5 for Monks. It's a 1 turn equivalent to Banishment (as it completely removes a target from taking any actions) and can be continued with successive strikes.
Lv 3 Open Hand Technique: Enemy is knocked prone, OR pushed 15ft away, OR can't take reactions.
Monks are not designed to be the heavy damage dealers. But I've yet to see any other build that I can find that can insta-kill a target after 2 turns...
Ok maybe the lv 20 Battle Master... 8d12 from Action Surge with a Great Axe. +6d12 from Superiority Dice. + 80 with Great Weapon Master. +40 from damage bonus.
Looking at 14d12 + 80 + 40. Assuming they all hit: 134-288 damage. Still not a instant-kill however and requires way more effort than 1 saving throw.
You shouldn't screw with martial arts die size to contend with magic weapons, there should just be magical item for unarmed attacks that increases it the exact same as magic weapons. +1, +2, +3 versions.
I have made homebrew version for monk players before and they work wonders. The Claw tattoo is a good standby option if you don't like homebrew.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'd like to see monk's do more damage but I'd even more like to see them fill the niche of melee utility class via a combination of maneuverability and map manipulation with shoves, stuns, knockdowns, etc...
1: ki points will never feel right as long as they are tied to stunning strike which vastly outweighs the utility or damage value of anything else they can do with a ki point. The temptation to dump every single ki point into a stunning attempt is overwhelming. The ability as a save or suck is always either op or taxing depending on luck
2: Flurry of blows should be encouraged for the flavor of a rapid martial artist and not compete with stunning strike.
I propose they add the mobile and crusher feat to monk as a default class feature to solve the issue of monks burning ki to do things other classes like rogue can just do by default while encouraging the flavor of a mobile unit... many monk's pick these feats as they seem necessary to utilize the classes full flavor and the monk is already MAD, so let's go ahead and just give it to them.
Furthermore, I propose that when the monk lands 4 attacks successfully against a single target, stunning strike is automatically triggered and requires a saving throw.
Lastly, the way of the open hand features to flurry should be made default... now every turn with crusher as a class feature the monk can chose to attempt move two characters 5 feet, or one character 10 feet (or knock it prone) and attempt to stun it assuming all attacks land...
Now we're not wasting so many ki points and focusing solely on stunning strike, we are using out movement to its fullest potential, we are providing unique and rewarding utility of enemy control, and we are using our ki points on things that actually feel good, while still making tough choices.
You shouldn't screw with martial arts die size to contend with magic weapons, there should just be magical item for unarmed attacks that increases it the exact same as magic weapons. +1, +2, +3 versions.
I have made homebrew version for monk players before and they work wonders. The Claw tattoo is a good standby option if you don't like homebrew.
I'd like to see monk's do more damage but I'd even more like to see them fill the niche of melee utility class via a combination of maneuverability and map manipulation with shoves, stuns, knockdowns, etc...
1: ki points will never feel right as long as they are tied to stunning strike which vastly outweighs the utility or damage value of anything else they can do with a ki point. The temptation to dump every single ki point into a stunning attempt is overwhelming. The ability as a save or suck is always either op or taxing depending on luck
2: Flurry of blows should be encouraged for the flavor of a rapid martial artist and not compete with stunning strike.
I propose they add the mobile and crusher feat to monk as a default class feature to solve the issue of monks burning ki to do things other classes like rogue can just do by default while encouraging the flavor of a mobile unit... many monk's pick these feats as they seem necessary to utilize the classes full flavor and the monk is already MAD, so let's go ahead and just give it to them.
Furthermore, I propose that when the monk lands 4 attacks successfully against a single target, stunning strike is automatically triggered and requires a saving throw.
Lastly, the way of the open hand features to flurry should be made default... now every turn with crusher as a class feature the monk can chose to attempt move two characters 5 feet, or one character 10 feet and attempt to stun it assuming all attacks land...
Now we're not wasting so many ki points and focusing solely on stunning strike, we are using out movement to its fullest potential, we are providing unique and rewarding utility of enemy control, and we are using our ki points on things that actually feel good, while still making tough choices.
I agree with almost everything you suggest, except I actually like the Stunning Strike feature as is (and I realize I am probably in the minority). I have played a monk for 15 levels now (planning to go to level 20 with this campaign), and the balance between the heavy resource investment and the great reward when it lands feels right, and on par with the spell casters in the party slinging their big spells that often have similar balance (e.g. banishment, polymorph, disintegrate, etc.). What I would love to see though are more alternatives to Stunning Strike that have similar power balances but different effects.
And regarding the thematic beauty of flurry of blows / doing more damage: completely agreed, and that's why I am in the camp that would like to see more attacks added to the flurry as the level increases, in lieu of increasing the damage die.
You shouldn't screw with martial arts die size to contend with magic weapons, there should just be magical item for unarmed attacks that increases it the exact same as magic weapons. +1, +2, +3 versions.
I have made homebrew version for monk players before and they work wonders. The Claw tattoo is a good standby option if you don't like homebrew.
Id rather power be built-in the monk as that makes way more sense thematically. though I will grant you magic knuckles would be better then nothing. and that was kind of you too help out some of your players, hats off to you in that regard.
many of the staple bbegs or henchmen tend to be resistant To necrotic . openhand has to have a save for its effects or you could be a warlock and push your enemies around much easier. "Monks are not designed to be the heavy damage dealers" this right here is what id like demolished, you can only say that cause they have no alternatives to stunning strike but many prior versions of dnd monks could be very good damage and its always annoying when people push this narrative and like its their way or the highway. its a roleplaying game and I should be able to have the mechanics to support monk damage if that's what I want to play .I really hope they give a boost to monk and don't just go "your not meant for damage just be a controller and be happy you have no options for damage.
I really think some people have different images of a monk. I think a monk should be a primary damage dealer, the stunning strike is either too good or sucks depending on different factors. some people view the monk as basically a guy doing tai chi in the woods with no real power . where as I envision the monk like Genkei from the spirit detective doing flurry of blows shooting ki blasts and taking names, when the dpr is weak it takes me out of class fantasy, I should be able to do more. should I be able to do more and also stunning strike ? perhaps not and id be fine with that, Id rather they put stunning strike on a controller subclass, perhaps open hand monk and then allow for variation so we all can play the kind of flavor we all want as individuals.Im for your freedom are you for mine?
"Monks are not designed to be the heavy damage dealers" this right here is what id like demolished, you can only say that cause they have no alternatives to stunning strike but many prior versions of dnd monks could be very good damage and its always annoying when people push this narrative and like its their way or the highway.
I say that because the rest of the Monks myriad of skills are geared towards survival and locking down the enemy. If you want a subclass that offers more damage output, there are plenty that are on par if not better than a vast majority of other classes own damage output while still retaining the survival and status-effect-dealing ability.
If you are looking for raw damage dealing power, you get that with
Touch of the Long Death: 1-10 x 2d10 = 2-200 damage or at minimum 1-100 damage.
Intoxicated Frenzy 2d10+5 and 5d10+5 = 42-105 damage
Other classes are not that far ahead of a level 17 Monk and unlike magic users who have limited resources to continuously use their big spells, Monks have upwards of 20ki points to spend on their abilities over and over again.
Power Work Kill is a 9th level spell that (theoretically) does either zero damage or 100 damage. You only get one use typically.
Meteor Swarm does 20d6 + 20d6 = 40-240 or at minimum 20-120 damage (or zero damage if the target saves and has evasion <such as a Monk gets at level 7). Again, only one use before having to use weaker spells.
I would ask, respectfully, what damage output value and or subclasses of other classes are you attempting to compete with.
The Battle Master has the highest potential for damage output (that I've been able to find so far) but I would still consider a 1v1 between Monk and Battle Master to be a tossup, with the Monk (through use of tactics) having the lead in that engagement.
More Magic items to benefit the monk and unarmed strikes would be good but should not be an argument for not raising the MA die. Magic items are not a guarantee and every DM handles them differently.
If they follow Mordenkainen’s Monsters of the Multiverse which has racial/species with d6 unarmed strikes via talons or claws etc then the monk should start with the same d6, not d4.
I think we will see a change to Stunning Strike and possibly see the use of the new Dazed condition. Or even better, a version similar to the UA paladins Abjure Foes which dazes and frightens on failed save but still dazes on a successful save. Maybe stun on fail but dazed on save? And it may go to only once on your turn, which would limit its uses, and save Ki, but also lessen its power a little.
And who knows what the Warrior UA will bring. I’m interested to see what the weapon changes will be.
"Monks are not designed to be the heavy damage dealers" this right here is what id like demolished, you can only say that cause they have no alternatives to stunning strike but many prior versions of dnd monks could be very good damage and its always annoying when people push this narrative and like its their way or the highway.
I say that because the rest of the Monks myriad of skills are geared towards survival and locking down the enemy. If you want a subclass that offers more damage output, there are plenty that are on par if not better than a vast majority of other classes own damage output while still retaining the survival and status-effect-dealing ability.
If you are looking for raw damage dealing power, you get that with
Touch of the Long Death: 1-10 x 2d10 = 2-200 damage or at minimum 1-100 damage.
Intoxicated Frenzy 2d10+5 and 5d10+5 = 42-105 damage
Other classes are not that far ahead of a level 17 Monk and unlike magic users who have limited resources to continuously use their big spells, Monks have upwards of 20ki points to spend on their abilities over and over again.
Power Work Kill is a 9th level spell that (theoretically) does either zero damage or 100 damage. You only get one use typically.
Meteor Swarm does 20d6 + 20d6 = 40-240 or at minimum 20-120 damage (or zero damage if the target saves and has evasion <such as a Monk gets at level 7). Again, only one use before having to use weaker spells.
I would ask, respectfully, what damage output value and or subclasses of other classes are you attempting to compete with.
The Battle Master has the highest potential for damage output (that I've been able to find so far) but I would still consider a 1v1 between Monk and Battle Master to be a tossup, with the Monk (through use of tactics) having the lead in that engagement.
I think monks fighters and barbs should be within a stones throw of each other , I'm ok with fighter being number one but they are quite a bit farther ahead and don't have to use resource to keep ahead. I respect that your trying to figure out solutions we need more of that.
Kreen you are awesome buddy, however I want more power lol, I think you need to ask for more and then you end up ok.
every time they try to buff monk its so tepid that you still end up on the bottom rung.
it is no coincidence that every optimizer rates monk the worst, becuase there is little you can do to pump your damage up if that's your desire compared to almost any other class. at least try to ask for a higher bar then what you get might be at least good.
Kreen you are awesome buddy, however I want more power lol, I think you need to ask for more and then you end up ok.
every time they try to buff monk its so tepid that you still end up on the bottom rung.
it is no coincidence that every optimizer rates monk the worst, becuase there is little you can do to pump your damage up if that's your desire compared to almost any other class. at least try to ask for a higher bar then what you get might be at least good.
The reason they are so tepid is because stunning strike is so powerful and the gimp everything else because of it. If it scaled up instead of full power ray level 5 we might see them put out more powerful options.
And as you mentioned, from the summit, it does seem like they are starting at d6
And as you mentioned, from the summit, it does seem like they are starting at d6
D6 to start seems reasonable in line with racial natural weapons in Mordenkainen's Monster of the Multiverse and the Unarmed Fighting style from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, this also helps to close off one of those areas where certain races are "better" for monks at least in the early game, so it skews the choice back to being what do you actually want to play as. At least, assuming they get around to actually fixing the Surprise Attack on the updated Bugbear (did nobody proof-read that one)?
I'm curious what the intention is for the scaling though; I still think they need to align the scaling to be a regular number of levels (currently it's not a consistent number), but I'm not sure where they're likely to land on that? Since we effectively already have an extra attack as standard from 1st-level (albeit using our bonus action) we wouldn't necessarily need a larger damage die at 5th-level or earlier anymore, as that's where the d6 currently comes in, so I could see them delaying it. Maybe 7th- (d8), 11th- (d10), 15th- (d12) and 19th- (2d6) or such?
In the past I've asked for more consistent damage scaling, but that was with the assumption of still starting at d4, I'd be okay with a delayed start to the damage increases if we started out a little higher up-front.
For DMing I've been playing a lot with enemies getting auto-disarm/grapples/shoves since I tend to run fights with only average damage as it's faster to run, so a critical hit is just an auto-hit normally (which reduces the swinginess against the players) but it's sometimes fun when an enemy rolls well to give them a little extra "sauce" with an automatic disarm/grapple/shove, and it's also cool narratively to have a tough enemy open with some power move, or do it mid-fight when enraged or desperate etc. But it also makes me really appreciate just how much I want to do that sort of thing on martial characters a lot more, especially on monks (though it would be more throwing etc. for them I think).
One thing I really like from the OneD&D playtests is that grapple/shove are becoming features of unarmed strikes (in place of damage), so this actually makes them a lot more accessible to Monks; previously we had a maximum of two attempts as currently it's tied to the Attack action, but with the OneD&D playtest you could use your martial arts bonus action for it, or do it as part of a Flurry of Blows, so in a way Flurry of Blows is a way to spend 1 ki to do three unarmed strikes plus a grapple or shove if you want (though functionally they're all attacks now). I do wish they'd add Disarm as a standard option as well as that would give monks (actually any martial with a free hand) a really nice basic toolkit to mess with.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Either scale higher, or multi-hit more. Maybe it's a bit of my video game history speaking, but I'd think monks would be the undisputed masters of multi-attacks. Getting a third extra attack in high levels like fighter is the least of the changes I'd make to up monk's damage, though far from all I'd do. I'd even go as far as dice roll related extra attack possibilities like maybe if you score a 18 roll or higher you can choose to either attempt a stunning strike (baked in) or attack an additional time.
Or maybe add special attack techniques. Can't get any more martial artist than that. I personally also believe that the ability to deal damage with a DEX based shove, push, or maybe even a grapple shouldn't be just limited to Open Hand, but baked into the class in general in some way. It thematically makes sense for any flavor of martial artist to be able to apply precision tactical advantages with their strikes in ways the other classes can't. It really shouldn't be just a feature of one subclass, I've felt this way for years.
Lv 17 Quivering Palm: Con Save (max 19) On Fail: Target drops to 0HP. On Success: 10d10 damage. <INSTANT Death for 3 Ki points... or 10-100 damage and you get to do it five times is not underpowered.
Monks are not designed to be the heavy damage dealers. But I've yet to see any other build that I can find that can insta-kill a target after 2 turns...
If monks aren't designed to do damage... what are they designed to do? run away? the utility of stunning strike, while NICE when it works, alone does not make up for their lack of damage. plenty of other classes and probably all casters have the ability to hamper the enemy in ways roughly equal to stun (sometimes worse) while STILL carrying the ability to do assloads of damage AND having more defensive options.
You just quoted me stating that Monk can instantly kill a target or do upwards of 100 damage to a target and then try to make it seem like I said that they cannot do damage. Unless of course instantly killing a target doesn't count towards damage done. I also very clearly stated that they can hold their own on the front lines. Patient Defense is a key part of the Monk build as well as their ability to enhance crucial saving throws through Evasion.
If you read further in what I actually said, you will find that Quivering Palm is the exact equivalent to Power Work Kill which is a 9th level spell. With one exception, It will still do damage if it fails. Your caster equivalent can only do that once (1 time) per rest. Monks can do that repeatedly between rests.
Even the granddaddy of all spells, Meteor Swarm, (another single-use 9th level spell) will do zero damage toa Monk if that Monk rolls a successful dexterity save. <which it is proficient at.
Monks do damage. They can do that damage repeatedly and sometimes better than some other martial classes. Just like casters, you have to spend something to use those heavy-hitting attacks but don't think that they can't deal out damage on the front lines. Their greatest asset however still remains their utility on the battlefield and being used as part of the team.
I've yet to see anyone crunch the numbers or give an example of how the Monk is weaker in damage output other than they use a d10 dice for punching vs a d12 (heavy weapon) of other martials.
Fighter gets 4 attacks; Monk gets 4 attacks. Fighter gets Action Surge, Monk gets Stunning Strike. Action surge lets you attack twice on a single turn, Stunning Strike lets you attack a target freely on two separate turns. Unlike Monk, a fighter using Action Surge doesn't do anything to help the rest of the team do damage or reduce incoming damage. Monk meanwhile allows the whole party to utilize its ability to get their attacks in while reducing the potential damage coming from the target.
Spell Casters are the most powerful things on the board, but they have a single 9th level spell to attempt to take out the BBEG and either hit or miss with Power Word Kill. Monk can use 3 of its 20 ki points to attempt to do the same thing but still deal upwards to 100 damage to the target even if it saves. Wizard could also use Meteor Swarm and hope that the enemy doesn't fail and have evasion. Monk can attempt its special attack upwards of 6 times.
If there is an argument for some of the Monk subclasses being weaker than some of the other subclasses of martials, I can safely say that that is true. Some Monk subclasses have reduced damage output than others; this does not mean that their utility is reduced.
You just quoted me stating that Monk can instantly kill a target or do upwards of 100 damage to a target and then try to make it seem like I said that they cannot do damage. Unless of course instantly killing a target doesn't count towards damage done. I also very clearly stated that they can hold their own on the front lines. Patient Defense is a key part of the Monk build as well as their ability to enhance crucial saving throws through Evasion.
If you read further in what I actually said, you will find that Quivering Palm is the exact equivalent to Power Work Kill which is a 9th level spell. With one exception, It will still do damage if it fails. Your caster equivalent can only do that once (1 time) per rest. Monks can do that repeatedly between rests.
Even the granddaddy of all spells, Meteor Swarm, (another single-use 9th level spell) will do zero damage toa Monk if that Monk rolls a successful dexterity save. <which it is proficient at.
Monks do damage. They can do that damage repeatedly and sometimes better than some other martial classes. Just like casters, you have to spend something to use those heavy-hitting attacks but don't think that they can't deal out damage on the front lines. Their greatest asset however still remains their utility on the battlefield and being used as part of the team.
I've yet to see anyone crunch the numbers or give an example of how the Monk is weaker in damage output other than they use a d10 dice for punching vs a d12 (heavy weapon) of other martials.
Fighter gets 4 attacks; Monk gets 4 attacks. Fighter gets Action Surge, Monk gets Stunning Strike. Action surge lets you attack twice on a single turn, Stunning Strike lets you attack a target freely on two separate turns. Unlike Monk, a fighter using Action Surge doesn't do anything to help the rest of the team do damage or reduce incoming damage. Monk meanwhile allows the whole party to utilize its ability to get their attacks in while reducing the potential damage coming from the target.
Spell Casters are the most powerful things on the board, but they have a single 9th level spell to attempt to take out the BBEG and either hit or miss with Power Word Kill. Monk can use 3 of its 20 ki points to attempt to do the same thing but still deal upwards to 100 damage to the target even if it saves. Wizard could also use Meteor Swarm and hope that the enemy doesn't fail and have evasion. Monk can attempt its special attack upwards of 6 times.
If there is an argument for some of the Monk subclasses being weaker than some of the other subclasses of martials, I can safely say that that is true. Some Monk subclasses have reduced damage output than others; this does not mean that their utility is reduced.
I'm at work so I don't have time to write a point by point rebuttal...
Talking about monk's ability to dodge a meteor swarm is disingenuous, a monk's ability to dodge are damage has no place in a conversation about dealing damage.
You're entire position is based on 2 abilities that are both basically save-or-sucks. It's also based on level 20 alone which most campaigns don't even get to. It's ALSO rating the monk based on subclass features (that aren't available until what, level 17?)
A class should be able to stand on its own at base and have flavor added through subclasses, not depend entirely on a high level subclass feature to be considered viable.
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They don't need to scale up the die, which would have a minimal effect in any case (you only gain one point of average damage per tier); they just need to create a +X magic weapon/item for unarmed attacks. Plus over half of a Monk's attacks are not required to be unarmed and they can apply all the benefits of Martial Arts, including damage die, so it's not like the class is categorically unable to make use of magic weapons.
Way of the Open Hand (level 20):
1d10+5 x 4 (24-60dmg) <Low damage for level 20? yes... but these weapons cannot be stolen and (at level 6) count as magical to get past resistances.
Lv 17 Quivering Palm: Con Save (max 19) On Fail: Target drops to 0HP. On Success: 10d10 damage. <INSTANT Death for 3 Ki points... or 10-100 damage and you get to do it five times is not underpowered.
Lv 5 Stunning Strike: Stuns target till end of your next turn. <This is an 8th level spell that you get at level 5 for Monks. It's a 1 turn equivalent to Banishment (as it completely removes a target from taking any actions) and can be continued with successive strikes.
Lv 3 Open Hand Technique: Enemy is knocked prone, OR pushed 15ft away, OR can't take reactions.
Monks are not designed to be the heavy damage dealers. But I've yet to see any other build that I can find that can insta-kill a target after 2 turns...
Ok maybe the lv 20 Battle Master... 8d12 from Action Surge with a Great Axe. +6d12 from Superiority Dice. + 80 with Great Weapon Master. +40 from damage bonus.
Looking at 14d12 + 80 + 40. Assuming they all hit: 134-288 damage. Still not a instant-kill however and requires way more effort than 1 saving throw.
You shouldn't screw with martial arts die size to contend with magic weapons, there should just be magical item for unarmed attacks that increases it the exact same as magic weapons. +1, +2, +3 versions.
I have made homebrew version for monk players before and they work wonders. The Claw tattoo is a good standby option if you don't like homebrew.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'd like to see monk's do more damage but I'd even more like to see them fill the niche of melee utility class via a combination of maneuverability and map manipulation with shoves, stuns, knockdowns, etc...
1: ki points will never feel right as long as they are tied to stunning strike which vastly outweighs the utility or damage value of anything else they can do with a ki point. The temptation to dump every single ki point into a stunning attempt is overwhelming. The ability as a save or suck is always either op or taxing depending on luck
2: Flurry of blows should be encouraged for the flavor of a rapid martial artist and not compete with stunning strike.
I propose they add the mobile and crusher feat to monk as a default class feature to solve the issue of monks burning ki to do things other classes like rogue can just do by default while encouraging the flavor of a mobile unit... many monk's pick these feats as they seem necessary to utilize the classes full flavor and the monk is already MAD, so let's go ahead and just give it to them.
Furthermore, I propose that when the monk lands 4 attacks successfully against a single target, stunning strike is automatically triggered and requires a saving throw.
Lastly, the way of the open hand features to flurry should be made default... now every turn with crusher as a class feature the monk can chose to attempt move two characters 5 feet, or one character 10 feet (or knock it prone) and attempt to stun it assuming all attacks land...
Now we're not wasting so many ki points and focusing solely on stunning strike, we are using out movement to its fullest potential, we are providing unique and rewarding utility of enemy control, and we are using our ki points on things that actually feel good, while still making tough choices.
Yes!! 100% this!
I agree with almost everything you suggest, except I actually like the Stunning Strike feature as is (and I realize I am probably in the minority). I have played a monk for 15 levels now (planning to go to level 20 with this campaign), and the balance between the heavy resource investment and the great reward when it lands feels right, and on par with the spell casters in the party slinging their big spells that often have similar balance (e.g. banishment, polymorph, disintegrate, etc.). What I would love to see though are more alternatives to Stunning Strike that have similar power balances but different effects.
And regarding the thematic beauty of flurry of blows / doing more damage: completely agreed, and that's why I am in the camp that would like to see more attacks added to the flurry as the level increases, in lieu of increasing the damage die.
Id rather power be built-in the monk as that makes way more sense thematically. though I will grant you magic knuckles would be better then nothing. and that was kind of you too help out some of your players, hats off to you in that regard.
many of the staple bbegs or henchmen tend to be resistant To necrotic . openhand has to have a save for its effects or you could be a warlock and push your enemies around much easier. "Monks are not designed to be the heavy damage dealers" this right here is what id like demolished, you can only say that cause they have no alternatives to stunning strike but many prior versions of dnd monks could be very good damage and its always annoying when people push this narrative and like its their way or the highway. its a roleplaying game and I should be able to have the mechanics to support monk damage if that's what I want to play .I really hope they give a boost to monk and don't just go "your not meant for damage just be a controller and be happy you have no options for damage.
I really think some people have different images of a monk. I think a monk should be a primary damage dealer, the stunning strike is either too good or sucks depending on different factors. some people view the monk as basically a guy doing tai chi in the woods with no real power . where as I envision the monk like Genkei from the spirit detective doing flurry of blows shooting ki blasts and taking names, when the dpr is weak it takes me out of class fantasy, I should be able to do more. should I be able to do more and also stunning strike ? perhaps not and id be fine with that, Id rather they put stunning strike on a controller subclass, perhaps open hand monk and then allow for variation so we all can play the kind of flavor we all want as individuals.Im for your freedom are you for mine?
"Monks are not designed to be the heavy damage dealers" this right here is what id like demolished, you can only say that cause they have no alternatives to stunning strike but many prior versions of dnd monks could be very good damage and its always annoying when people push this narrative and like its their way or the highway.
I say that because the rest of the Monks myriad of skills are geared towards survival and locking down the enemy. If you want a subclass that offers more damage output, there are plenty that are on par if not better than a vast majority of other classes own damage output while still retaining the survival and status-effect-dealing ability.
If you are looking for raw damage dealing power, you get that with
Quivering Palm: instantly killing your target and/or 10d10 = 10-100 damage.
Touch of the Long Death: 1-10 x 2d10 = 2-200 damage or at minimum 1-100 damage.
Intoxicated Frenzy 2d10+5 and 5d10+5 = 42-105 damage
Other classes are not that far ahead of a level 17 Monk and unlike magic users who have limited resources to continuously use their big spells, Monks have upwards of 20ki points to spend on their abilities over and over again.
Power Work Kill is a 9th level spell that (theoretically) does either zero damage or 100 damage. You only get one use typically.
Meteor Swarm does 20d6 + 20d6 = 40-240 or at minimum 20-120 damage (or zero damage if the target saves and has evasion <such as a Monk gets at level 7). Again, only one use before having to use weaker spells.
I would ask, respectfully, what damage output value and or subclasses of other classes are you attempting to compete with.
The Battle Master has the highest potential for damage output (that I've been able to find so far) but I would still consider a 1v1 between Monk and Battle Master to be a tossup, with the Monk (through use of tactics) having the lead in that engagement.
More Magic items to benefit the monk and unarmed strikes would be good but should not be an argument for not raising the MA die. Magic items are not a guarantee and every DM handles them differently.
If they follow Mordenkainen’s Monsters of the Multiverse which has racial/species with d6 unarmed strikes via talons or claws etc then the monk should start with the same d6, not d4.
I think we will see a change to Stunning Strike and possibly see the use of the new Dazed condition. Or even better, a version similar to the UA paladins Abjure Foes which dazes and frightens on failed save but still dazes on a successful save. Maybe stun on fail but dazed on save? And it may go to only once on your turn, which would limit its uses, and save Ki, but also lessen its power a little.
And who knows what the Warrior UA will bring. I’m interested to see what the weapon changes will be.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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I think monks fighters and barbs should be within a stones throw of each other , I'm ok with fighter being number one but they are quite a bit farther ahead and don't have to use resource to keep ahead. I respect that your trying to figure out solutions we need more of that.
Kreen you are awesome buddy, however I want more power lol, I think you need to ask for more and then you end up ok.
every time they try to buff monk its so tepid that you still end up on the bottom rung.
it is no coincidence that every optimizer rates monk the worst, becuase there is little you can do to pump your damage up if that's your desire compared to almost any other class. at least try to ask for a higher bar then what you get might be at least good.
I think the gods of wotc might have heard my prayers .
according to rumor new weapon masteries will boost monk and they will more than likely have some damage options.
looking forward to the new ua . I love more options.
The reason they are so tepid is because stunning strike is so powerful and the gimp everything else because of it. If it scaled up instead of full power ray level 5 we might see them put out more powerful options.
And as you mentioned, from the summit, it does seem like they are starting at d6
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
D6 to start seems reasonable in line with racial natural weapons in Mordenkainen's Monster of the Multiverse and the Unarmed Fighting style from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, this also helps to close off one of those areas where certain races are "better" for monks at least in the early game, so it skews the choice back to being what do you actually want to play as. At least, assuming they get around to actually fixing the Surprise Attack on the updated Bugbear (did nobody proof-read that one)?
I'm curious what the intention is for the scaling though; I still think they need to align the scaling to be a regular number of levels (currently it's not a consistent number), but I'm not sure where they're likely to land on that? Since we effectively already have an extra attack as standard from 1st-level (albeit using our bonus action) we wouldn't necessarily need a larger damage die at 5th-level or earlier anymore, as that's where the d6 currently comes in, so I could see them delaying it. Maybe 7th- (d8), 11th- (d10), 15th- (d12) and 19th- (2d6) or such?
In the past I've asked for more consistent damage scaling, but that was with the assumption of still starting at d4, I'd be okay with a delayed start to the damage increases if we started out a little higher up-front.
For DMing I've been playing a lot with enemies getting auto-disarm/grapples/shoves since I tend to run fights with only average damage as it's faster to run, so a critical hit is just an auto-hit normally (which reduces the swinginess against the players) but it's sometimes fun when an enemy rolls well to give them a little extra "sauce" with an automatic disarm/grapple/shove, and it's also cool narratively to have a tough enemy open with some power move, or do it mid-fight when enraged or desperate etc. But it also makes me really appreciate just how much I want to do that sort of thing on martial characters a lot more, especially on monks (though it would be more throwing etc. for them I think).
One thing I really like from the OneD&D playtests is that grapple/shove are becoming features of unarmed strikes (in place of damage), so this actually makes them a lot more accessible to Monks; previously we had a maximum of two attempts as currently it's tied to the Attack action, but with the OneD&D playtest you could use your martial arts bonus action for it, or do it as part of a Flurry of Blows, so in a way Flurry of Blows is a way to spend 1 ki to do three unarmed strikes plus a grapple or shove if you want (though functionally they're all attacks now). I do wish they'd add Disarm as a standard option as well as that would give monks (actually any martial with a free hand) a really nice basic toolkit to mess with.
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Either scale higher, or multi-hit more. Maybe it's a bit of my video game history speaking, but I'd think monks would be the undisputed masters of multi-attacks. Getting a third extra attack in high levels like fighter is the least of the changes I'd make to up monk's damage, though far from all I'd do. I'd even go as far as dice roll related extra attack possibilities like maybe if you score a 18 roll or higher you can choose to either attempt a stunning strike (baked in) or attack an additional time.
Or maybe add special attack techniques. Can't get any more martial artist than that. I personally also believe that the ability to deal damage with a DEX based shove, push, or maybe even a grapple shouldn't be just limited to Open Hand, but baked into the class in general in some way. It thematically makes sense for any flavor of martial artist to be able to apply precision tactical advantages with their strikes in ways the other classes can't. It really shouldn't be just a feature of one subclass, I've felt this way for years.
If monks aren't designed to do damage... what are they designed to do? run away? the utility of stunning strike, while NICE when it works, alone does not make up for their lack of damage. plenty of other classes and probably all casters have the ability to hamper the enemy in ways roughly equal to stun (sometimes worse) while STILL carrying the ability to do assloads of damage AND having more defensive options.
You just quoted me stating that Monk can instantly kill a target or do upwards of 100 damage to a target and then try to make it seem like I said that they cannot do damage. Unless of course instantly killing a target doesn't count towards damage done. I also very clearly stated that they can hold their own on the front lines. Patient Defense is a key part of the Monk build as well as their ability to enhance crucial saving throws through Evasion.
If you read further in what I actually said, you will find that Quivering Palm is the exact equivalent to Power Work Kill which is a 9th level spell. With one exception, It will still do damage if it fails. Your caster equivalent can only do that once (1 time) per rest. Monks can do that repeatedly between rests.
Even the granddaddy of all spells, Meteor Swarm, (another single-use 9th level spell) will do zero damage toa Monk if that Monk rolls a successful dexterity save. <which it is proficient at.
Monks do damage. They can do that damage repeatedly and sometimes better than some other martial classes. Just like casters, you have to spend something to use those heavy-hitting attacks but don't think that they can't deal out damage on the front lines. Their greatest asset however still remains their utility on the battlefield and being used as part of the team.
I've yet to see anyone crunch the numbers or give an example of how the Monk is weaker in damage output other than they use a d10 dice for punching vs a d12 (heavy weapon) of other martials.
Fighter gets 4 attacks; Monk gets 4 attacks. Fighter gets Action Surge, Monk gets Stunning Strike. Action surge lets you attack twice on a single turn, Stunning Strike lets you attack a target freely on two separate turns. Unlike Monk, a fighter using Action Surge doesn't do anything to help the rest of the team do damage or reduce incoming damage. Monk meanwhile allows the whole party to utilize its ability to get their attacks in while reducing the potential damage coming from the target.
Spell Casters are the most powerful things on the board, but they have a single 9th level spell to attempt to take out the BBEG and either hit or miss with Power Word Kill. Monk can use 3 of its 20 ki points to attempt to do the same thing but still deal upwards to 100 damage to the target even if it saves. Wizard could also use Meteor Swarm and hope that the enemy doesn't fail and have evasion. Monk can attempt its special attack upwards of 6 times.
If there is an argument for some of the Monk subclasses being weaker than some of the other subclasses of martials, I can safely say that that is true. Some Monk subclasses have reduced damage output than others; this does not mean that their utility is reduced.
I'm at work so I don't have time to write a point by point rebuttal...
Talking about monk's ability to dodge a meteor swarm is disingenuous, a monk's ability to dodge are damage has no place in a conversation about dealing damage.
You're entire position is based on 2 abilities that are both basically save-or-sucks. It's also based on level 20 alone which most campaigns don't even get to. It's ALSO rating the monk based on subclass features (that aren't available until what, level 17?)
A class should be able to stand on its own at base and have flavor added through subclasses, not depend entirely on a high level subclass feature to be considered viable.