I love martial arts and find it a pity that Nick weapon mastery only works with light weapons. After all, what is lighter than light weapons? Well, not having weapons of course.
Obviously, I can play with weapon rules and imagine being unarmed, but to do modifier damage with the secondary weapon I would have to have Dual Wield, when instead a monk if unarmed should not have this problem.
It would be nice if they made a feat that would allow Nick unarmed mastery. Do you think that would be reasonable according to the balance of the game?
At first I was going to say that if they let Nick work on unarmed strike then you might was we’ll just give them two attacks as attack action and only FoB as BA because that’s what would happen anyway.
But since you then mentioned it as a feat then I might think it a bit too powerful. Yes, it’s a feat, but if you can stack Dual wielder feat on top of that and each attack at a d12 eventually it might be too much.
But would have to try it out and see how it works.
I got confused, it is not Dual Wielder, but The two-weapon fighting style. When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you are not already adding it.
At first I was going to say that if they let Nick work on unarmed strike then you might was we’ll just give them two attacks as attack action and only FoB as BA because that’s what would happen anyway.
That's right, but more specifically it would be used in conjunction with the 3 Focus skills of the monk and not just FoB.
Since simple weapons like daggers would be rated as monk weapons they would have damage equal to the monk's unarmed attacks. So the problem is not so much the base damage, but its modifier offered by dexterity, which in this case would be accessible because of The two-weapon fighting style.
But now that you point out, if you combine Nick + Dual Wilder could you gain another attack? Nick allows you to move the bonus action attack into action and dual wilder allows you to add a new attack into the bonus action? Would that be possible?
Dual Wielder feat: When you take the attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack later on that same turn as a Bonus Action with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-handed property. You don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative.
I'm not sure what you're looking for that can't already be done with the existing options.
You can get Nick with the weapon mastery feat. You can use it because there are nick weapons among the extant monk weapons.
Yes, it doesn't let you use unarmed attacks, but that only matters for chrome reasons.
One of the minor balancing factors of the two-weapon fighting stuff is that it forces you to use multiple weapons. That limits what you can do with your hands, and means you can't re-use the bonuses from magical weapons.
Unarmed combat doesn't give you the same limits, minor though they are.
And, frankly, it's not like monks are short on the number of attacks they make.
But now that you point out, if you combine Nick + Dual Wilder could you gain another attack? Nick allows you to move the bonus action attack into action and dual wilder allows you to add a new attack into the bonus action? Would that be possible?
The he problem is that even if I wanted to play the monk unarmed, but using the rules as if he were armed with two light weapons, if I don't have The two-weapon fighting style, the damage of the bonus attack that is carried of the action with Nick mastery, this attack would not have the modifier damage, whereas if it were an unarmed attack it would not have this problem.
It is true that the monk already has a lot of attacks, but Nick mastery would allow Focus features to be used more optimally
The he problem is that even if I wanted to play the monk unarmed, but using the rules as if he were armed with two light weapons, if I don't have The two-weapon fighting style, the damage of the bonus attack that is carried of the action with Nick mastery, this attack would not have the modifier damage, whereas if it were an unarmed attack it would not have this problem.
It is true that the monk already has a lot of attacks, but Nick mastery would allow Focus features to be used more optimally
I'm confused, why is that the case? (emphasis mine)
The he problem is that even if I wanted to play the monk unarmed, but using the rules as if he were armed with two light weapons, if I don't have The two-weapon fighting style, the damage of the bonus attack that is carried of the action with Nick mastery, this attack would not have the modifier damage, whereas if it were an unarmed attack it would not have this problem.
It is true that the monk already has a lot of attacks, but Nick mastery would allow Focus features to be used more optimally
If we're giving the monk yet another attack that lets them use their bonus action, I don't see why you wouldn't suffer the same penalties that two weapon users would.
If you want nick, take nick. Making a whole new feat so monks can have nick, but slightly better is not good design.
That would allow the Monk to do and be more than a mindless facemash class, but that's not the 2024 design direction. You are going to use the same action and bonus action every turn, and you are going to like it, even if everyone else gains new features with no action or resource cost.
I fail to see how giving monks yet more attacks makes them less "mindless facesmash". And the weapon mastery feat still already exists if it'll somehow help you play your monk differently.
(I'm not having any such problem, so I really can't solve it for you.)
That would allow the Monk to do and be more than a mindless facemash class, but that's not the 2024 design direction. You are going to use the same action and bonus action every turn, and you are going to like it, even if everyone else gains new features with no action or resource cost.
I'm playing a fifth level Warrior of the Elements Monk, and I absolutely don't use the same Action and Bonus action every turn. It's been depending a lot on whether my Stunning Strike opener fails, whether the subsequent Grappler attempt fails, and whether or not I have to deal with foes with non-BPS attacks, foes with Multiattack, or multiple foes, in which case I tend to prioritize getting a Dodge in.
Never played a '14 Monk, so I don't have much to compare as that goes. Also probably be different if the party composition/builds were different.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
I'm thinking of making a feat specifically for unarmed combat that ties in with weapon mastery.
I think I should limit the list of unarmed mastery, since I put them all in. Any advice ?
I know that by making such a feat most people (98%) will use it to have Nick mastery, but I think it would also be a solution to integrate unarmed combat into the innovation that is weapon mastery. Perhaps if I remove the mastery Nick, the feat could become more balanced? (I'm practically tripping over myself).
Unarmed Master
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+) You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Your training without weapons allows you to use the mastery property whit your unarmed attacks. You can choose a mastery type from the list and use it for unarmed attacks. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the type of unarmed mastery to another suitable type.
I'm thinking of making a feat specifically for unarmed combat that ties in with weapon mastery.
I think I should limit the list of unarmed mastery, since I put them all in. Any advice ?
I know that by making such a feat most people (98%) will use it to have Nick mastery, but I think it would also be a solution to integrate unarmed combat into the innovation that is weapon mastery. Perhaps if I remove the mastery Nick, the feat could become more balanced? (I'm practically tripping over myself).
Unarmed Master
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+) You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Your training without weapons allows you to use the mastery property whit your unarmed attacks. You can choose a mastery type from the list and use it for unarmed attacks. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the type of unarmed mastery to another suitable type.
Cleave
Graze
Nick
Push
Sap
Slow
Topple
Vex
I wouldn't. Weapon mastery is inherently limited by what weapons you have available, and different weapon classes have different pools of mastery properties, limiting specialists and the proficiency-bound.
This just gives monks free choice from all the properties. (I also think you're mistaken that Nick would be anybody's choice -- monks have no shortage of attacks already.)
More importantly, this, and the original post don't answer the question: is this some deep need monks actually have? Elemental and Open Hand already have their own weapon mastery-like things, and the other subclasses have their own stuff going on.
I'm thinking of making a feat specifically for unarmed combat that ties in with weapon mastery.
I think I should limit the list of unarmed mastery, since I put them all in. Any advice ?
I know that by making such a feat most people (98%) will use it to have Nick mastery, but I think it would also be a solution to integrate unarmed combat into the innovation that is weapon mastery. Perhaps if I remove the mastery Nick, the feat could become more balanced? (I'm practically tripping over myself).
Unarmed Master
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+) You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Your training without weapons allows you to use the mastery property whit your unarmed attacks. You can choose a mastery type from the list and use it for unarmed attacks. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the type of unarmed mastery to another suitable type.
Cleave
Graze
Nick
Push
Sap
Slow
Topple
Vex
I wouldn't. Weapon mastery is inherently limited by what weapons you have available, and different weapon classes have different pools of mastery properties, limiting specialists and the proficiency-bound.
This just gives monks free choice from all the properties. (I also think you're mistaken that Nick would be anybody's choice -- monks have no shortage of attacks already.)
More importantly, this, and the original post don't answer the question: is this some deep need monks actually have? Elemental and Open Hand already have their own weapon mastery-like things, and the other subclasses have their own stuff going on.
With them increasing FOB to 3 is like nick. Stunning strike is equal to prone and vex. I’m agreeing that Monks don’t need weapon mastery as it’s built into the class. Now you want more, either dip into a class and lengthen the time for monk abilities, or pick a feat.
It doesn't even need to have a mastery. Just move the monks bonus unarmed strike to the attack action as an extra attack and punch with the same fist twice. Add one more unarmed strike on the attack action for flurry of blows and again at 10th for fob. It's the same amount of attacks the monk has now but all on the attack action.
It's my one lingering issue with the new monk they have not addressed. Its too bonus action heavy. If you don't do flurry of blows the monks attack action gets relatively weaker and weaker as the monk increases in character level.
Monks have never been more playable then they are now. Barbarians have limited amout of rages but you dont see them complane about using their resources. A good DM is going to stretch your resources so the battles are not all a cake walk. The class and subclasses are truly, finally suer playable.
Monks have never been more playable then they are now. Barbarians have limited amout of rages but you dont see them complane about using their resources. A good DM is going to stretch your resources so the battles are not all a cake walk. The class and subclasses are truly, finally suer playable.
Barbarians' Rage can last between encounters, gives them non-combat benefits, and they have other features that give them effectiveness and utility in battle without consuming resources.
Or to put it bluntly: it takes a Monk at level 1 both its action and its bonus action to make one d8 attack and one d6 attack. The Barbarian can make a d12 attack and Push or Topple an enemy with just its action. Or it can make an extra d12 attack without any additional action. Or it can do damage even when it misses.
OK. What else are they using that bonus action on at level 1? The Monk's action economy is built around using its bonus action every turn.
As for the damage, yes, the Barbarian or Fighter, who are designed for front-line combat, can equal or slightly outpace the Monk, who is a highly mobile striker, in damage, at least in some circumstances.
But... they're gear-dependent at low levels. They can't do any of those things you list above at will. They need to own and carry around the right weapon. They also need armor. They get more options as they level up, but so does the monk.
If the Monk wants to use any of its other options, it has to sacrifice damage output to do so.
This is true of every single class there is. If they want to do something else, they sacrifice damage. For most of them, they sacrifice their Action, and thus all their damage. The monk's two-part action economy gives them a lot more flexibility to do things while still attacking.
And speaking of subclasses: one forces you to pay to do what every other martial does for free, another is a half-baked pairing of two previous and better subclasses, the third has most of its options removed and is largely useless against blindsight/tremorsense/truesight or simply natural light, and the last's sole change is a significant nerf.
I haven't played all the subclasses, but the Elements monk is vastly better than the old. Not only more effective, but more fun. Just getting to play tactical position control without paying a huge pile of resources every time is big. I haven't even got around to doing ranged grapples yet. I don't miss the other spell options, because they were so expensive they weren't worth using.
We get it. You hate the 2024 Monk. But your personal dislike doesn't make it bad.
This is true of every single class there is. If they want to do something else, they sacrifice damage. For most of them, they sacrifice their Action, and thus all their damage. The monk's two-part action economy gives them a lot more flexibility to do things while still attacking.
This actually is even more true that the OP forgot to mention which would strengthen it is the following fact:
In 2024 FOB bonus action is not dependent upon needing to make a melee attack FIRST. This opens infinite possibilities with your Action phase, Bonus action phase. Each being independent of each other, not like 2014.
Also now including Reactions to deflect attacks, which scales to include spells.
I understand you disagree with the changes and thoughts behind 2024, look at this way, you could be more miserable playing a Ranger and straddled with Hunters Mark, sorry Ranger players but it’s true
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I love martial arts and find it a pity that Nick weapon mastery only works with light weapons. After all, what is lighter than light weapons? Well, not having weapons of course.
Obviously, I can play with weapon rules and imagine being unarmed, but to do modifier damage with the secondary weapon I would have to have Dual Wield, when instead a monk if unarmed should not have this problem.
It would be nice if they made a feat that would allow Nick unarmed mastery. Do you think that would be reasonable according to the balance of the game?
At first I was going to say that if they let Nick work on unarmed strike then you might was we’ll just give them two attacks as attack action and only FoB as BA because that’s what would happen anyway.
But since you then mentioned it as a feat then I might think it a bit too powerful. Yes, it’s a feat, but if you can stack Dual wielder feat on top of that and each attack at a d12 eventually it might be too much.
But would have to try it out and see how it works.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I got confused, it is not Dual Wielder, but The two-weapon fighting style.
When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you are not already adding it.
That's right, but more specifically it would be used in conjunction with the 3 Focus skills of the monk and not just FoB.
Since simple weapons like daggers would be rated as monk weapons they would have damage equal to the monk's unarmed attacks. So the problem is not so much the base damage, but its modifier offered by dexterity, which in this case would be accessible because of The two-weapon fighting style.
But now that you point out, if you combine Nick + Dual Wilder could you gain another attack? Nick allows you to move the bonus action attack into action and dual wilder allows you to add a new attack into the bonus action? Would that be possible?
Dual Wielder feat: When you take the attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack later on that same turn as a Bonus Action with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-handed property. You don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative.
I'm not sure what you're looking for that can't already be done with the existing options.
You can get Nick with the weapon mastery feat. You can use it because there are nick weapons among the extant monk weapons.
Yes, it doesn't let you use unarmed attacks, but that only matters for chrome reasons.
One of the minor balancing factors of the two-weapon fighting stuff is that it forces you to use multiple weapons. That limits what you can do with your hands, and means you can't re-use the bonuses from magical weapons.
Unarmed combat doesn't give you the same limits, minor though they are.
And, frankly, it's not like monks are short on the number of attacks they make.
Yes.
The he problem is that even if I wanted to play the monk unarmed, but using the rules as if he were armed with two light weapons, if I don't have The two-weapon fighting style, the damage of the bonus attack that is carried of the action with Nick mastery, this attack would not have the modifier damage, whereas if it were an unarmed attack it would not have this problem.
It is true that the monk already has a lot of attacks, but Nick mastery would allow Focus features to be used more optimally
I'm confused, why is that the case? (emphasis mine)
If we're giving the monk yet another attack that lets them use their bonus action, I don't see why you wouldn't suffer the same penalties that two weapon users would.
If you want nick, take nick. Making a whole new feat so monks can have nick, but slightly better is not good design.
I fail to see how giving monks yet more attacks makes them less "mindless facesmash". And the weapon mastery feat still already exists if it'll somehow help you play your monk differently.
(I'm not having any such problem, so I really can't solve it for you.)
I'm playing a fifth level Warrior of the Elements Monk, and I absolutely don't use the same Action and Bonus action every turn. It's been depending a lot on whether my Stunning Strike opener fails, whether the subsequent Grappler attempt fails, and whether or not I have to deal with foes with non-BPS attacks, foes with Multiattack, or multiple foes, in which case I tend to prioritize getting a Dodge in.
Never played a '14 Monk, so I don't have much to compare as that goes. Also probably be different if the party composition/builds were different.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
I'm thinking of making a feat specifically for unarmed combat that ties in with weapon mastery.
I think I should limit the list of unarmed mastery, since I put them all in. Any advice ?
I know that by making such a feat most people (98%) will use it to have Nick mastery, but I think it would also be a solution to integrate unarmed combat into the innovation that is weapon mastery. Perhaps if I remove the mastery Nick, the feat could become more balanced? (I'm practically tripping over myself).
Unarmed Master
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Your training without weapons allows you to use the mastery property whit your unarmed attacks.
You can choose a mastery type from the list and use it for unarmed attacks.
Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the type of unarmed mastery to another suitable type.
I wouldn't. Weapon mastery is inherently limited by what weapons you have available, and different weapon classes have different pools of mastery properties, limiting specialists and the proficiency-bound.
This just gives monks free choice from all the properties. (I also think you're mistaken that Nick would be anybody's choice -- monks have no shortage of attacks already.)
More importantly, this, and the original post don't answer the question: is this some deep need monks actually have? Elemental and Open Hand already have their own weapon mastery-like things, and the other subclasses have their own stuff going on.
With them increasing FOB to 3 is like nick. Stunning strike is equal to prone and vex. I’m agreeing that Monks don’t need weapon mastery as it’s built into the class. Now you want more, either dip into a class and lengthen the time for monk abilities, or pick a feat.
It doesn't even need to have a mastery. Just move the monks bonus unarmed strike to the attack action as an extra attack and punch with the same fist twice. Add one more unarmed strike on the attack action for flurry of blows and again at 10th for fob. It's the same amount of attacks the monk has now but all on the attack action.
It's my one lingering issue with the new monk they have not addressed. Its too bonus action heavy. If you don't do flurry of blows the monks attack action gets relatively weaker and weaker as the monk increases in character level.
Monks have never been more playable then they are now. Barbarians have limited amout of rages but you dont see them complane about using their resources. A good DM is going to stretch your resources so the battles are not all a cake walk. The class and subclasses are truly, finally suer playable.
OK. What else are they using that bonus action on at level 1? The Monk's action economy is built around using its bonus action every turn.
As for the damage, yes, the Barbarian or Fighter, who are designed for front-line combat, can equal or slightly outpace the Monk, who is a highly mobile striker, in damage, at least in some circumstances.
But... they're gear-dependent at low levels. They can't do any of those things you list above at will. They need to own and carry around the right weapon. They also need armor. They get more options as they level up, but so does the monk.
This is true of every single class there is. If they want to do something else, they sacrifice damage. For most of them, they sacrifice their Action, and thus all their damage. The monk's two-part action economy gives them a lot more flexibility to do things while still attacking.
I haven't played all the subclasses, but the Elements monk is vastly better than the old. Not only more effective, but more fun. Just getting to play tactical position control without paying a huge pile of resources every time is big. I haven't even got around to doing ranged grapples yet. I don't miss the other spell options, because they were so expensive they weren't worth using.
We get it. You hate the 2024 Monk. But your personal dislike doesn't make it bad.
This is true of every single class there is. If they want to do something else, they sacrifice damage. For most of them, they sacrifice their Action, and thus all their damage. The monk's two-part action economy gives them a lot more flexibility to do things while still attacking.
This actually is even more true that the OP forgot to mention which would strengthen it is the following fact:
In 2024 FOB bonus action is not dependent upon needing to make a melee attack FIRST. This opens infinite possibilities with your Action phase, Bonus action phase. Each being independent of each other, not like 2014.
Also now including Reactions to deflect attacks, which scales to include spells.
I understand you disagree with the changes and thoughts behind 2024, look at this way, you could be more miserable playing a Ranger and straddled with Hunters Mark, sorry Ranger players but it’s true