Pretty excited to play a 2024 Monk build, Warrior of Mercy. Never to D&D, so curious about folks’ thoughts?
Custom Lineage: Which origin feat? Half of them seem really helpful.
Species: Human would of course give 2 origin feats. But as a melee, is it near-requisite to have a species that can fly? I haven’t played deep enough yet to experience enemies totally beyond my reach.
ASIs / Feats: Assuming either 16 DEX/CON/WIS to start or 17 DEX & 14 CON, to take Grappler feat at 4. And then max out DEX & WIS from there?
Concerned about Monk’s weak AC & HP. Can their Deflect reaction and Healing Hand make up for this enough? Also not enough Focus Points.
Homebrew ideas: 1) Ki Points: add WIS modifier to amount. Most need is up front early. 2) Otherwise useless Medicine proficiency should grant Proficiency Bonus to Healing Hand. 3) Extra ASI? Monks and especially Mercy Monks are so dependent on their stats and have low AC & hit dice. Monks seem like masters of training their body & mind so it makes sense to me. If Rogues gets an extra ASI at 10, maybe Monks should too?
Flight probably isn't essential at the low levels, but I personally consider having some kind of ranged ability vital for any character; I'd use starting cash to buy a Light Crossbow and bolts, and switch that out with a Shortbow once Extra Attack comes online.
You're probably never going to have as many Focus Points as you'd like. I'm not personally playing a Mercy Monk,; I'm playing Warrior of the Elements. I wound up dumping both STR and CHA to start with STR 8, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 8, as a Human Character, and taking Tavern Brawler and Musician as my Origin Feats, then picking up Grappler at Level 4, for what's currently AC 17 at level 6.
If I wasn't playing Warrior of the Elements, I might not have chosen Tavern Brawler, in retrospect, if I wasn't playing Warrior of the Elements, I might not have taken it. It feels nice to reroll 1's, but averages to less than half a point of extra damage per hit. The 5' Shove can be a nice free disengage, but if you only have a 5' reach yourself, you have to make decisions on which of your Attack-Action Attacks you're going to use it on. The only Improvised Weapon my character carries around is one I've never used in combat since the campaign started.
The big thing about Deflect Attacks is that it only works for one Attack each round, it consumes your Reaction, and at least initially, only works on attacks that are at least partially Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing, In play, I find myself heaving relying on Deflect Attacks for BPS attacks, and almost always taking a Dodge action (either normally, or using Patient Defense) whenever I'm confronted by a creature that doesn't use those types or has Multiattack. That said, I'm generally the frontliner in the party I'm in, I'd probably play differently if it was a different party composition.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Good stuff. Yeah, I was wondering how essential feats like Tavern Brawler or Grappler are for a Monk. Like am I missing the most out of this build by not taking Grappler at least? I'm newer to D&D and haven't seen much grappling in my games. I hear it's a bit easier for enemies to get out of now? But with the Mercy's auto-poison at level 6, that would make grappling more effective? But then since a Monk early on has low AC and HP, is it not a bit risky to pin an enemy to yourself?
Not super into having to use a weapon. Really dig the "catch them hands" vibe from Monk. I guess it's a comparison of what a d10 longsword to the fists, which only get to d10 at level 11?
Focus Points: Mercy Monk seems especially needy on these to do much of their main stuff. Seems a key drawback compared to other subclasses, which do look cool. I just like the mix of utility Mercy brings to combat, damage/debuffing/healing. I feel homebrewing +WIS to number of Focus Points gives a stock boost (likely +3) most helpful early on, modest and thematically logical. Uncanny Metabolism is great but only if you have more than one combat a day. I have yet to do that once in my 9 months of D&D.
The Hand of healing does come in handy, also depends upon group makeup. If you have healer (that actually heals)- pot shot at the cleric in one of my groups. Also depends on how many encounters you’re going to encounter. With the new level 2 ability get your FP back (is huge as well). I would concentrate on equipment going forward, such as dragon hide belt (+1-3). Or delvers claw (if you are getting nick). Bracers of defense or ring/cloak protection. With stunning strike, or grapple, or if pick Goliath and get the ability to knock prone (ac) would not be a problem. Initiative would be important (going first) so swapping or getting alert would be helpfull.
Went with alert and tough(to compensate for con scores- which basically gave me 18 anyways). At higher levels you can be a useful healer 3d10 + mod for hand of healing, which is amazing.
All good suggestions. Alert and Tough look helpful on anything. But that requires Human, so no flying option, built-in anyway.
The Heating Hand does look good at higher levels. Would be nice for it to get Proficiency Bonus as well (from otherwise useless Medicine proficiency). Anything to make healing more viable and attractive in combat especially I say. And that could be another way for the Monk to sustain itself despite weak HP & AC.
Good stuff. Yeah, I was wondering how essential feats like Tavern Brawler or Grappler are for a Monk. Like am I missing the most out of this build by not taking Grappler at least? I'm newer to D&D and haven't seen much grappling in my games. I hear it's a bit easier for enemies to get out of now? But with the Mercy's auto-poison at level 6, that would make grappling more effective? But then since a Monk early on has low AC and HP, is it not a bit risky to pin an enemy to yourself?
Under the '24 Rules, Attempting a Grapple is a imposing a Saving Throw on the target, so Poisoned doesn't affect that. (Attempting to Escape a Grapple takes an Action and _is_ an Ability Check, so the Poisoned Status does affect that.)
Yes, there is a risk. Once you've Grappled a target, the Target attacks everyone else at Disadvantage, so if you've only got a 5' Reach, and are still Grappling the Target when its Turn comes around, it will need to decide whether to burn an Action trying to escape the Grapple, or to keep attacking you. Luckily, you can release your Grapple at any time, so if you just want to hold onto the target for the rest of the Turn ( to get the Attack Advantage feature from the Grappler Feat), and release it after that, you can do that.
That said, the Grappler: Fast Grappler feature is quite useful for relocating foes and friends in a combat situation. You can use it to move foes into an ongoing magical effect, or to move friends out of contact with the Enemy
Not super into having to use a weapon. Really dig the "catch them hands" vibe from Monk. I guess it's a comparison of what a d10 longsword to the fists, which only get to d10 at level 11?
If the Monk's DEX is more than 4 points higher than their STR, their average damage rolls with their fists will match or exceed your average two-handed damage rolls with a longsword at Level 1, and the Monk's to-hit chance will be at least 10% higher (Longswords are neither Monk Weapons, nor included in Monk Weapon Proficiencies). Also, both the Grappler: Punch and Grab and the Tavern Brawler: Push options require that you use the Attack Action and use an Unarmed Strike, if you're using those.
Focus Points: Mercy Monk seems especially needy on these to do much of their main stuff. Seems a key drawback compared to other subclasses, which do look cool. I just like the mix of utility Mercy brings to combat, damage/debuffing/healing. I feel homebrewing +WIS to number of Focus Points gives a stock boost (likely +3) most helpful early on, modest and thematically logical. Uncanny Metabolism is great but only if you have more than one combat a day. I have yet to do that once in my 9 months of D&D.
I would ask the DM to increase the number of combats per day in this situation; Having only one combat per day leans away from the utility of Short-Rest Classes like Monks and Warlocks. As long as the other players know that the paradigm is going to shift towards more combats per day, that is. Many '24 Classes have at least some Resource that recharges on a Short Rest, besides the option to spend Hit Dice on healing. Are the players deciding to Long Rest after every combat, regardless of time pressures, location, or situation?
That said, Uncanny Metabolism is more of a "We're in two combats without the time to Short Rest inbetween" situation, and I've only had to use that in one situation in my current Campaign.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Okay, so not a longsword. A quarterstaff would raise damage to d8 until my fists match at level 6. But yeah would rather rock out with my fists for those other features but also for roleplay. May ask DM for brass knuckles for +1 damage or something.
Asking for more Focus Points feels right. If so much of a Monk's ability & feel goes through those features, you just can't starve it. A Barbarian gets most/all of its signature abilities through a rage that lasts a whole battle and more. And they have almost as many rages as a Monk has Focus Points in very early game. Even just 3 more as a base seems like enough.
But wow, grappling sounds pretty impressive. I keep forgetting the Grappler feat grants advantage against grappled targets. Pretty helpful offensive boost, as I wouldn't have easy access to advantage. Could apply to 1-4 attacks on the same round, depending on the level and if Flurry is used. And I dig how grappling protects your allies. Didn't know you could let go at any time - very helpful. I guess could grapple, hit a bunch, and if worried, I could let go and then move?
Origin feats: If taking Grappler, Tavern Brawler seems worth picking on synergy. Can't decide if it's minor damage boost & push is better than improved initiative or HP.
Okay, so not a longsword. A quarterstaff would raise damage to d8 until my fists match at level 6. But yeah would rather rock out with my fists for those other features but also for roleplay. May ask DM for brass knuckles for +1 damage or something.
Asking for more Focus Points feels right. If so much of a Monk's ability & feel goes through those features, you just can't starve it. A Barbarian gets most/all of its signature abilities through a rage that lasts a whole battle and more. And they have almost as many rages as a Monk has Focus Points in very early game. Even just 3 more as a base seems like enough.
I'm not really sure there's that much of a need for that in the Early Game. Most combats last 3-4 rounds, so budgeting an expenditure of one Focus per round at the start should be fine. It's kind of treating Hand of Harm as a slightly better alternative to Flurry of Blows. Assuming +3 DEX and WIS mods, it's trading (1 1d6+3 Bludgeoning Action Attack, 2 1d6+ 3 Bludgeoning Bonus Action Attacks) for (1 1d6+3 Action Attack, 1 1d6+3 Bonus Action Attack, 1 automatic 1d6+3 Necrotic Damage if either one hits)
You said the Barbarian is getting multiple Rages, but unless the Barbarian is getting Incapacitated during every single combat, if (as you mentioned) you're only having one Combat each Long Rest, does having more than one Rage available matter in your Campaign?
Ultimately, I guess I can't really judge, not having played in your campaign.
But wow, grappling sounds pretty impressive. I keep forgetting the Grappler feat grants advantage against grappled targets. Pretty helpful offensive boost, as I wouldn't have easy access to advantage. Could apply to 1-4 attacks on the same round, depending on the level and if Flurry is used. And I dig how grappling protects your allies. Didn't know you could let go at any time - very helpful. I guess could grapple, hit a bunch, and if worried, I could let go and then move?
Origin feats: If taking Grappler, Tavern Brawler seems worth picking on synergy. Can't decide if it's minor damage boost & push is better than improved initiative or HP.
The 5' shove of Tavern Brawler does seem a little inconvenient to use if you don't have longer than a 5' reach, or environmental hazards to push the target into. You can only use it on your Action's attacks, so if you don't want to keep moving forward to follow up, you'll have to use your Bonus Action attacks(Unarmed Strike or Flurry of Blows) before your Attack on your turn.
There is one benefit of an irresistible 5' shove on a hit that comes from dealing with multiple clustered opponents and positioning, but that's primarily going to be something that affects the attacks of some of the other characters, from the Moving Around Other Creatures rules:
You can’t willingly end a move in a space occupied by another creature. If you somehow end a turn in a space with another creature, you have the Prone condition (see the Rules Glossary) unless you are Tiny or are of a larger size than the other creature.
And that's anyone's Turn. So if the Monk uses that 5' shove to push one larger-than-Tiny creature into the square of another larger-than-Tiny creature, at least one of them (or both, if they're the same Size) winds up Prone at the end of the Monk's Turn. The targets will stand up (if they can) when their Turn comes around, but until that happens, the Monk's allies within 5' get Advantage on their attacks on the Prone targets.
It is, admittedly, a minor benefit, because it's almost certainly not going to last the full Round, and your allies who aren't within 5' will have Disadvantage on Attacks.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Wow, more good stuff to consider on grappling & shoving, thx. Think I'm definitely interested to try it out, since other builds I'm less likely to do so.
My comparison with Barbarians was simply to cite that their resource limit does not impose scarcity on them due to its length and coverage of most of their keynote abilities. Versus Monks' similar numbers of resources early but only doing one small thing. Hence it's not unreasonable to give a couple more to Monks. Maybe you're right - that it wouldn't matter. I actually joined my only campaign at level 6, so I've only played levels 6-8! Never had more than one combat per session. But a couple big ones have gone at least 6 or 7 rounds. By level 6, you could be using Focus Points on multiple needs, so you could burn through a lot quick (especially for Mercy Monk).
Dunno what the balance is, just speculating. I definitely think limits are important, but also allowing builds to use feature you want. And a Monk's features I don't think are that overpowered (esp compared to casters, no?). But another comparison: my current Paladin without spending resources (spell slots) can hit hard, brush off attacks, move 60 feet with it's steed, and give +4 to saves and it's sublcass aura, all without spending resources. Then if it can Smite and other stuff, it's pretty strong. Again, could be wrong, but my leaning is to let the Monk have just a tad more breathing room to play.
The damages of a paladin and monk are quite comparable. Ignoring subclasses, feats, and weapon masteries, at level 5:
Paladin: base damage = 13, damage with divine favor = 16.25, damage casting divine smite when possible = 24.1475 (or 28.09625 with level 2 spell slots)
Monk: base damage = 14.625, damage with FoB = 19.5. There is also stunning strike, which is a bit more complicated, but will increase the dpr and grant other buffs.
To conclude, the monk has greater dpr with low resource expenditure, but the paladin has higher if they are willing to expend a significant amount of spell slots, which they only regain when they short rest.
The damages of a paladin and monk are quite comparable. Ignoring subclasses, feats, and weapon masteries, at level 5:
Paladin: base damage = 13, damage with divine favor = 16.25, damage casting divine smite when possible = 24.1475 (or 28.09625 with level 2 spell slots)
Monk: base damage = 14.625, damage with FoB = 19.5. There is also stunning strike, which is a bit more complicated, but will increase the dpr and grant other buffs.
To conclude, the monk has greater dpr with low resource expenditure, but the paladin has higher if they are willing to expend a significant amount of spell slots, which they only regain when they short rest.
Thanks for the numbers. Yeah I don’t think damage is actually a huge problem with Monk.
Question: Any idea what the numbers would be for a Paladin with a d12 Lance? That’s what I’m using currently at level 8. Since I get to use that with a shield, it’s a boost to damage & AC (latter already being better than a Monk’’s for most of the early/mid-game). Also having Mounted Combatant grants advantage vs. most enemies, but that’s extra.
The other bonus the Paladin brings is its Auras. Those boosts to saves are pretty valuable plus whichever other bonus the second Aura brings. And they are passives. No resources needed, no hit to action economy, just positioning (but you still get it for yourself always).
So I think the complete Paladin package still seems strong enough that its resource limits aren’t as limiting to it as the Monk’s are to Monks. But probably not too bad, to your points.
2024 Oath of Devotion Paladin at 8th Level, 20 STR, 16 CHA. Mounted, using Dueling Fighting Style. Using 1d12 Lance with Sacred Weapon (though 2024 lances do 1d10) , casting Divine Smite (Level 2 Spell Slot) if a hit occurs.
I have not included Crit die multiplication for Hand of Harm, or for Divine Smite, mostly because I'm not quite sure how to model that under AnyDice, and am uncertain if "Roll all your attacks first, see which, if any, is a Crit, and apply Divine Smite or Hand of Harm on that one" is supported RAW.
I've also chosen not to apply potential advantage for having the Grappler Feat and grappling the foe, or using the Mounted Combatant feat's Mounted Strike ability.
I then took the data and thew it into a Google Sheet, to generate the following graphs for mean damage per round. Given the above assumptions DPR seems to be comparable, with the the Paladin doing better damage at AC > 14 from a pure DPR standpoint. Using a Standard Lance would probably pull things a bit more into the Monk's favor, and the Level 8 Monk has a bit of a benefit that they can do this for 4 Turns after each Short Rest, whereas the Level 8 Paladin is out of Level 2 Spell Slots until a Long Rest after two Turns of Divine Smites.
Mean damage per round.
Target AC
Devotion Paladin
Mercy Monk
10
39.8
46.2
11
39.8
44.3
12
39.8
42.3
13
39.8
40.3
14
38.3
38.3
15
36.8
36.3
16
35.2
34.2
17
33.6
32.1
18
31.8
30.0
19
30.0
27.9
20
28.2
25.7
21
26.3
23.4
22
24.3
21.1
23
22.2
18.6
24
20.1
16.1
25
17.9
13.4
26
15.6
10.5
27
13.3
7.5
28
10.9
4.4
29
8.4
4.4
30
5.9
4.4
31
3.3
4.4
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Wow. So thorough. Monk’s greater damage coming from its 2 bonus attacks + 1 mini smite (Harm), I take it.
For reference, that would cost 2 Focus Points to Flurry & Harm, correct? So that’s four rounds of that combo before iall out. Not too bad. Paladin’s smite slots would go a bit slower I think, but that seems pretty comparable.
The tradeoff is Paladin should have higher AC (mine has 21 at lvl 8) plus auras. I suppose the Monk’s Deflect Blows is worth a couple points of AC? Good DEX saves + Evasion, but mediocre CON & WIS saves until level 14.
Pretty much. 4 attacks at 1d8+Mod is generally preferable to 2 attacks at 1d12+Mod, I think.
And as someone who plays a 6th Level Warrior of the Elements Monk (18 DEX, 16 WIS), I often don't get the full four attacks unless there is only one target that can reach me, and at least of the following is true.
The target is Stunned or Grappled at Reach, and will not be retaliating this round.
The target can only make one attack per Turn, and that attack is at least partially BPS.
I am fairly sure I can kill the Target this round.
While Inflicting Damage Now is better than Inflicting Damage Later, I'm often finding myself deciding to forgo Flurry of Blows for Focused Patient Defense, because I can only use Deflect Attacks on one attack each Round. Admittedly, some of this is because I'm often the only melee combatant in the party.
And since Deflect Attacks consumes your Reaction, I often don't have one to spare for an Opportunity Attack, or a Readied action. It hasn't happened yet, but I could also see situations where I can't use Slow Fall because I had to use Deflect Attacks
That said, an 8th-level Monk is also probably going to be routinely attempting Stunning Strikes on attacks, which would increase the to-hit probabilities, increase the DPR, and require me to make assumptions about CON saves in AnyDice, so if actually pushing things to the limit, I can see being out of Focus Points in three rounds at 8th level.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Pretty much. 4 attacks at 1d8+Mod is generally preferable to 2 attacks at 1d12+Mod, I think.
And as someone who plays a 6th Level Warrior of the Elements Monk (18 DEX, 16 WIS), I often don't get the full four attacks unless there is only one target that can reach me, and at least of the following is true.
The target is Stunned or Grappled at Reach, and will not be retaliating this round.
The target can only make one attack per Turn, and that attack is at least partially BPS.
I am fairly sure I can kill the Target this round.
While Inflicting Damage Now is better than Inflicting Damage Later, I'm often finding myself deciding to forgo Flurry of Blows for Focused Patient Defense, because I can only use Deflect Attacks on one attack each Round. Admittedly, some of this is because I'm often the only melee combatant in the party.
And since Deflect Attacks consumes your Reaction, I often don't have one to spare for an Opportunity Attack, or a Readied action. It hasn't happened yet, but I could also see situations where I can't use Slow Fall because I had to use Deflect Attacks
That said, an 8th-level Monk is also probably going to be routinely attempting Stunning Strikes on attacks, which would increase the to-hit probabilities, increase the DPR, and require me to make assumptions about CON saves in AnyDice, so if actually pushing things to the limit, I can see being out of Focus Points in three rounds at 8th level.
Very helpful examples. That all seems quite plausible.
I guess the question is: Should Monks generally have enough Focus Points for a whole battle? How much does it hold them back not to be able to use an average of 1 per turn? I kind of like that as a baseline in theory. I want my Monk to be able to do cool Monk stuff.
It’s nice they have removed the Focus cost to many of the mobility bonus actions (since they still cost a bonus action, competing with damage), and since Stunning Strike is only once per turn, at least you won’t be spamming that. So that takes some pressure off, which was smart.
Alright, almost ready to use this build in our next campaign. My DM agreed to 2 small tweaks, happily:
1) Focus Points to be Monk level + WIS, which I appreciate. So starting level 3, will have 6 points. Still a limit but not scarcity.
2) Proficiency Bonus added to Hand of Healing. So now Martial Arts die + WIS + Prof. At level 3 that will be d6 + 5. The bonus is modest but gives a better floor for early game. Logic was twofold: Mercy's Medicine proficiency makes sense to apply to it's healing (and is arguably next to useless otherwise), and healing spells got a big buff in 2024. This is in keeping with that but is not overpowering.
For Origin Feat, taking either Alert or Tough over Tavern Brawler. Tough would help low Hit Die, low starting AC, and middling CON. Want to take Grappler at lvl. 4, so starting with 17 DEX and 16 WIS, so 14 CON. Will probably just do ASIs to DEX & WIS after that.
For species, I actually went with this cool Mushroomfolk species from Kobold Press: Poison Resistance & Darkvision, and my subspecies (Favored) allows casting of Bless once per Long Rest, plus a little extra healing and Persuasion & Survival proficiencies. Overall, the vibe fits really well with my Mercy Monk subclass. And since our party doesn't have a Cleric, I can fill many of those roles, especially since Hand of Healing remedies several nasty conditions at level 6. Pretty pumped!
Question: On such a build, would you take Tough or Alert? Tough helps with needed HP, but going early would be especially useful to my party to get Bless up right away. Thoughts?
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Pretty excited to play a 2024 Monk build, Warrior of Mercy. Never to D&D, so curious about folks’ thoughts?
Custom Lineage: Which origin feat? Half of them seem really helpful.
Species: Human would of course give 2 origin feats. But as a melee, is it near-requisite to have a species that can fly? I haven’t played deep enough yet to experience enemies totally beyond my reach.
ASIs / Feats: Assuming either 16 DEX/CON/WIS to start or 17 DEX & 14 CON, to take Grappler feat at 4. And then max out DEX & WIS from there?
Concerned about Monk’s weak AC & HP. Can their Deflect reaction and Healing Hand make up for this enough? Also not enough Focus Points.
Homebrew ideas: 1) Ki Points: add WIS modifier to amount. Most need is up front early. 2) Otherwise useless Medicine proficiency should grant Proficiency Bonus to Healing Hand. 3) Extra ASI? Monks and especially Mercy Monks are so dependent on their stats and have low AC & hit dice. Monks seem like masters of training their body & mind so it makes sense to me. If Rogues gets an extra ASI at 10, maybe Monks should too?
Flight probably isn't essential at the low levels, but I personally consider having some kind of ranged ability vital for any character; I'd use starting cash to buy a Light Crossbow and bolts, and switch that out with a Shortbow once Extra Attack comes online.
You're probably never going to have as many Focus Points as you'd like. I'm not personally playing a Mercy Monk,; I'm playing Warrior of the Elements. I wound up dumping both STR and CHA to start with STR 8, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 8, as a Human Character, and taking Tavern Brawler and Musician as my Origin Feats, then picking up Grappler at Level 4, for what's currently AC 17 at level 6.
If I wasn't playing Warrior of the Elements, I might not have chosen Tavern Brawler, in retrospect, if I wasn't playing Warrior of the Elements, I might not have taken it. It feels nice to reroll 1's, but averages to less than half a point of extra damage per hit. The 5' Shove can be a nice free disengage, but if you only have a 5' reach yourself, you have to make decisions on which of your Attack-Action Attacks you're going to use it on. The only Improvised Weapon my character carries around is one I've never used in combat since the campaign started.
The big thing about Deflect Attacks is that it only works for one Attack each round, it consumes your Reaction, and at least initially, only works on attacks that are at least partially Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing, In play, I find myself heaving relying on Deflect Attacks for BPS attacks, and almost always taking a Dodge action (either normally, or using Patient Defense) whenever I'm confronted by a creature that doesn't use those types or has Multiattack. That said, I'm generally the frontliner in the party I'm in, I'd probably play differently if it was a different party composition.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Good stuff. Yeah, I was wondering how essential feats like Tavern Brawler or Grappler are for a Monk. Like am I missing the most out of this build by not taking Grappler at least? I'm newer to D&D and haven't seen much grappling in my games. I hear it's a bit easier for enemies to get out of now? But with the Mercy's auto-poison at level 6, that would make grappling more effective? But then since a Monk early on has low AC and HP, is it not a bit risky to pin an enemy to yourself?
Not super into having to use a weapon. Really dig the "catch them hands" vibe from Monk. I guess it's a comparison of what a d10 longsword to the fists, which only get to d10 at level 11?
Focus Points: Mercy Monk seems especially needy on these to do much of their main stuff. Seems a key drawback compared to other subclasses, which do look cool. I just like the mix of utility Mercy brings to combat, damage/debuffing/healing. I feel homebrewing +WIS to number of Focus Points gives a stock boost (likely +3) most helpful early on, modest and thematically logical. Uncanny Metabolism is great but only if you have more than one combat a day. I have yet to do that once in my 9 months of D&D.
The Hand of healing does come in handy, also depends upon group makeup. If you have healer (that actually heals)- pot shot at the cleric in one of my groups. Also depends on how many encounters you’re going to encounter. With the new level 2 ability get your FP back (is huge as well). I would concentrate on equipment going forward, such as dragon hide belt (+1-3). Or delvers claw (if you are getting nick). Bracers of defense or ring/cloak protection. With stunning strike, or grapple, or if pick Goliath and get the ability to knock prone (ac) would not be a problem. Initiative would be important (going first) so swapping or getting alert would be helpfull.
Went with alert and tough(to compensate for con scores- which basically gave me 18 anyways). At higher levels you can be a useful healer 3d10 + mod for hand of healing, which is amazing.
All good suggestions. Alert and Tough look helpful on anything. But that requires Human, so no flying option, built-in anyway.
The Heating Hand does look good at higher levels. Would be nice for it to get Proficiency Bonus as well (from otherwise useless Medicine proficiency). Anything to make healing more viable and attractive in combat especially I say. And that could be another way for the Monk to sustain itself despite weak HP & AC.
Under the '24 Rules, Attempting a Grapple is a imposing a Saving Throw on the target, so Poisoned doesn't affect that. (Attempting to Escape a Grapple takes an Action and _is_ an Ability Check, so the Poisoned Status does affect that.)
Yes, there is a risk. Once you've Grappled a target, the Target attacks everyone else at Disadvantage, so if you've only got a 5' Reach, and are still Grappling the Target when its Turn comes around, it will need to decide whether to burn an Action trying to escape the Grapple, or to keep attacking you. Luckily, you can release your Grapple at any time, so if you just want to hold onto the target for the rest of the Turn ( to get the Attack Advantage feature from the Grappler Feat), and release it after that, you can do that.
That said, the Grappler: Fast Grappler feature is quite useful for relocating foes and friends in a combat situation. You can use it to move foes into an ongoing magical effect, or to move friends out of contact with the Enemy
If the Monk's DEX is more than 4 points higher than their STR, their average damage rolls with their fists will match or exceed your average two-handed damage rolls with a longsword at Level 1, and the Monk's to-hit chance will be at least 10% higher (Longswords are neither Monk Weapons, nor included in Monk Weapon Proficiencies). Also, both the Grappler: Punch and Grab and the Tavern Brawler: Push options require that you use the Attack Action and use an Unarmed Strike, if you're using those.
I would ask the DM to increase the number of combats per day in this situation; Having only one combat per day leans away from the utility of Short-Rest Classes like Monks and Warlocks. As long as the other players know that the paradigm is going to shift towards more combats per day, that is. Many '24 Classes have at least some Resource that recharges on a Short Rest, besides the option to spend Hit Dice on healing. Are the players deciding to Long Rest after every combat, regardless of time pressures, location, or situation?
That said, Uncanny Metabolism is more of a "We're in two combats without the time to Short Rest inbetween" situation, and I've only had to use that in one situation in my current Campaign.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Okay, so not a longsword. A quarterstaff would raise damage to d8 until my fists match at level 6. But yeah would rather rock out with my fists for those other features but also for roleplay. May ask DM for brass knuckles for +1 damage or something.
Asking for more Focus Points feels right. If so much of a Monk's ability & feel goes through those features, you just can't starve it. A Barbarian gets most/all of its signature abilities through a rage that lasts a whole battle and more. And they have almost as many rages as a Monk has Focus Points in very early game. Even just 3 more as a base seems like enough.
But wow, grappling sounds pretty impressive. I keep forgetting the Grappler feat grants advantage against grappled targets. Pretty helpful offensive boost, as I wouldn't have easy access to advantage. Could apply to 1-4 attacks on the same round, depending on the level and if Flurry is used. And I dig how grappling protects your allies. Didn't know you could let go at any time - very helpful. I guess could grapple, hit a bunch, and if worried, I could let go and then move?
Origin feats: If taking Grappler, Tavern Brawler seems worth picking on synergy. Can't decide if it's minor damage boost & push is better than improved initiative or HP.
I'm not really sure there's that much of a need for that in the Early Game. Most combats last 3-4 rounds, so budgeting an expenditure of one Focus per round at the start should be fine. It's kind of treating Hand of Harm as a slightly better alternative to Flurry of Blows. Assuming +3 DEX and WIS mods, it's trading (1 1d6+3 Bludgeoning Action Attack, 2 1d6+ 3 Bludgeoning Bonus Action Attacks) for (1 1d6+3 Action Attack, 1 1d6+3 Bonus Action Attack, 1 automatic 1d6+3 Necrotic Damage if either one hits)
You said the Barbarian is getting multiple Rages, but unless the Barbarian is getting Incapacitated during every single combat, if (as you mentioned) you're only having one Combat each Long Rest, does having more than one Rage available matter in your Campaign?
Ultimately, I guess I can't really judge, not having played in your campaign.
The 5' shove of Tavern Brawler does seem a little inconvenient to use if you don't have longer than a 5' reach, or environmental hazards to push the target into. You can only use it on your Action's attacks, so if you don't want to keep moving forward to follow up, you'll have to use your Bonus Action attacks(Unarmed Strike or Flurry of Blows) before your Attack on your turn.
There is one benefit of an irresistible 5' shove on a hit that comes from dealing with multiple clustered opponents and positioning, but that's primarily going to be something that affects the attacks of some of the other characters, from the Moving Around Other Creatures rules:
And that's anyone's Turn. So if the Monk uses that 5' shove to push one larger-than-Tiny creature into the square of another larger-than-Tiny creature, at least one of them (or both, if they're the same Size) winds up Prone at the end of the Monk's Turn. The targets will stand up (if they can) when their Turn comes around, but until that happens, the Monk's allies within 5' get Advantage on their attacks on the Prone targets.
It is, admittedly, a minor benefit, because it's almost certainly not going to last the full Round, and your allies who aren't within 5' will have Disadvantage on Attacks.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Wow, more good stuff to consider on grappling & shoving, thx. Think I'm definitely interested to try it out, since other builds I'm less likely to do so.
My comparison with Barbarians was simply to cite that their resource limit does not impose scarcity on them due to its length and coverage of most of their keynote abilities. Versus Monks' similar numbers of resources early but only doing one small thing. Hence it's not unreasonable to give a couple more to Monks. Maybe you're right - that it wouldn't matter. I actually joined my only campaign at level 6, so I've only played levels 6-8! Never had more than one combat per session. But a couple big ones have gone at least 6 or 7 rounds. By level 6, you could be using Focus Points on multiple needs, so you could burn through a lot quick (especially for Mercy Monk).
Dunno what the balance is, just speculating. I definitely think limits are important, but also allowing builds to use feature you want. And a Monk's features I don't think are that overpowered (esp compared to casters, no?). But another comparison: my current Paladin without spending resources (spell slots) can hit hard, brush off attacks, move 60 feet with it's steed, and give +4 to saves and it's sublcass aura, all without spending resources. Then if it can Smite and other stuff, it's pretty strong. Again, could be wrong, but my leaning is to let the Monk have just a tad more breathing room to play.
The damages of a paladin and monk are quite comparable. Ignoring subclasses, feats, and weapon masteries, at level 5:
Paladin: base damage = 13, damage with divine favor = 16.25, damage casting divine smite when possible = 24.1475 (or 28.09625 with level 2 spell slots)
Monk: base damage = 14.625, damage with FoB = 19.5. There is also stunning strike, which is a bit more complicated, but will increase the dpr and grant other buffs.
To conclude, the monk has greater dpr with low resource expenditure, but the paladin has higher if they are willing to expend a significant amount of spell slots, which they only regain when they short rest.
Thanks for the numbers. Yeah I don’t think damage is actually a huge problem with Monk.
Question: Any idea what the numbers would be for a Paladin with a d12 Lance? That’s what I’m using currently at level 8. Since I get to use that with a shield, it’s a boost to damage & AC (latter already being better than a Monk’’s for most of the early/mid-game). Also having Mounted Combatant grants advantage vs. most enemies, but that’s extra.
The other bonus the Paladin brings is its Auras. Those boosts to saves are pretty valuable plus whichever other bonus the second Aura brings. And they are passives. No resources needed, no hit to action economy, just positioning (but you still get it for yourself always).
So I think the complete Paladin package still seems strong enough that its resource limits aren’t as limiting to it as the Monk’s are to Monks. But probably not too bad, to your points.
All of the numbers would be exactly .65 less for a paladin using a d12 weapon.
Why less? What kind of weapon were you factoring into your original numbers?
2D6.
Oh right
Did a bit of simulation with AnyDice. Assuming there aren't bugs in my scripts, these numbers come from the following assumptions:
2024 Warrior of Mercy Monk at 8th level, 20 DEX, 16 WIS. Has the Tavern Brawler Feat, Using Flurry of Blows, firing off Hand of Harm if a hit occurs.
2024 Oath of Devotion Paladin at 8th Level, 20 STR, 16 CHA. Mounted, using Dueling Fighting Style. Using 1d12 Lance with Sacred Weapon (though 2024 lances do 1d10) , casting Divine Smite (Level 2 Spell Slot) if a hit occurs.
I have not included Crit die multiplication for Hand of Harm, or for Divine Smite, mostly because I'm not quite sure how to model that under AnyDice, and am uncertain if "Roll all your attacks first, see which, if any, is a Crit, and apply Divine Smite or Hand of Harm on that one" is supported RAW.
I've also chosen not to apply potential advantage for having the Grappler Feat and grappling the foe, or using the Mounted Combatant feat's Mounted Strike ability.
I then took the data and thew it into a Google Sheet, to generate the following graphs for mean damage per round. Given the above assumptions DPR seems to be comparable, with the the Paladin doing better damage at AC > 14 from a pure DPR standpoint. Using a Standard Lance would probably pull things a bit more into the Monk's favor, and the Level 8 Monk has a bit of a benefit that they can do this for 4 Turns after each Short Rest, whereas the Level 8 Paladin is out of Level 2 Spell Slots until a Long Rest after two Turns of Divine Smites.
Mean damage per round.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Wow. So thorough. Monk’s greater damage coming from its 2 bonus attacks + 1 mini smite (Harm), I take it.
For reference, that would cost 2 Focus Points to Flurry & Harm, correct? So that’s four rounds of that combo before iall out. Not too bad. Paladin’s smite slots would go a bit slower I think, but that seems pretty comparable.
The tradeoff is Paladin should have higher AC (mine has 21 at lvl 8) plus auras. I suppose the Monk’s Deflect Blows is worth a couple points of AC? Good DEX saves + Evasion, but mediocre CON & WIS saves until level 14.
Pretty much. 4 attacks at 1d8+Mod is generally preferable to 2 attacks at 1d12+Mod, I think.
And as someone who plays a 6th Level Warrior of the Elements Monk (18 DEX, 16 WIS), I often don't get the full four attacks unless there is only one target that can reach me, and at least of the following is true.
While Inflicting Damage Now is better than Inflicting Damage Later, I'm often finding myself deciding to forgo Flurry of Blows for Focused Patient Defense, because I can only use Deflect Attacks on one attack each Round. Admittedly, some of this is because I'm often the only melee combatant in the party.
And since Deflect Attacks consumes your Reaction, I often don't have one to spare for an Opportunity Attack, or a Readied action. It hasn't happened yet, but I could also see situations where I can't use Slow Fall because I had to use Deflect Attacks
That said, an 8th-level Monk is also probably going to be routinely attempting Stunning Strikes on attacks, which would increase the to-hit probabilities, increase the DPR, and require me to make assumptions about CON saves in AnyDice, so if actually pushing things to the limit, I can see being out of Focus Points in three rounds at 8th level.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Very helpful examples. That all seems quite plausible.
I guess the question is: Should Monks generally have enough Focus Points for a whole battle? How much does it hold them back not to be able to use an average of 1 per turn? I kind of like that as a baseline in theory. I want my Monk to be able to do cool Monk stuff.
It’s nice they have removed the Focus cost to many of the mobility bonus actions (since they still cost a bonus action, competing with damage), and since Stunning Strike is only once per turn, at least you won’t be spamming that. So that takes some pressure off, which was smart.
Alright, almost ready to use this build in our next campaign. My DM agreed to 2 small tweaks, happily:
1) Focus Points to be Monk level + WIS, which I appreciate. So starting level 3, will have 6 points. Still a limit but not scarcity.
2) Proficiency Bonus added to Hand of Healing. So now Martial Arts die + WIS + Prof. At level 3 that will be d6 + 5. The bonus is modest but gives a better floor for early game. Logic was twofold: Mercy's Medicine proficiency makes sense to apply to it's healing (and is arguably next to useless otherwise), and healing spells got a big buff in 2024. This is in keeping with that but is not overpowering.
For Origin Feat, taking either Alert or Tough over Tavern Brawler. Tough would help low Hit Die, low starting AC, and middling CON. Want to take Grappler at lvl. 4, so starting with 17 DEX and 16 WIS, so 14 CON. Will probably just do ASIs to DEX & WIS after that.
For species, I actually went with this cool Mushroomfolk species from Kobold Press: Poison Resistance & Darkvision, and my subspecies (Favored) allows casting of Bless once per Long Rest, plus a little extra healing and Persuasion & Survival proficiencies. Overall, the vibe fits really well with my Mercy Monk subclass. And since our party doesn't have a Cleric, I can fill many of those roles, especially since Hand of Healing remedies several nasty conditions at level 6. Pretty pumped!
Question: On such a build, would you take Tough or Alert? Tough helps with needed HP, but going early would be especially useful to my party to get Bless up right away. Thoughts?