As critical feedback this might work in the context as a subspec.
But as written 3rd i would use the reaction and the same damage redyction range as deflect missles. If you reduce to zero, you can toss at the cost of 1 ki. Sane with the 6th reaction to trigger, ki for damage.
10 is overpoweres without a save, as it is improved stunnjng blow. I might change it to a hold person, cost 1ki with concentration checks. That prevents its use on multiple opponents, and allows saves at end of round. Thematically see "crouching tiger hidden dragon" and the first fight with Jade Fox.
14th needs balancing. It is an at will defense, but no cost. You could (again) do a damage resist at a cost of reaction ir ki. A better way might be similar to the Tomb of Levistious (sp) or a globe of invulnerability for just you on a single round, recharge on short rest.
Finally, i play a Kensai and the key is indeed evasion OR the right melee partner. In my case it is ancestral guardian barabarian...so that is close to permemant dodge when dealing with the barbs primary target. And i have bow and speed so if i font want to engage, i dont.
Re: feedback, a lot of the stuff you are suggesting is already done by the Way of the Open Hand Monk. They have a high level ability that let's them insta-kill half the Monster Manual eve if they make their CON Save. But it costs Ki. Anything powerful for the Monk costs Ki. If you like the idea of dodging and redirecting your foe's melee strikes to hit other enemies, I suggest looking into the Drunken Master Monk.
The Monk class is trickier to play than most melee classes b/c it's heavily dependent on resource management. Your resource being your Ki points. Positioning yourself to minimize getting hit in the first place is helpful. Use your mobility to put obtacles and difficult terrain between yourself and the enemy bruisers after getting your own hits in.
If you like the feel of a DEX melee character over a STR melee character and don't want to manage resources so much, I recommend looking into the Swashbuckler subclass of the Rogue. You get advantage to your sneak attacks very easily and gives you an excuse to insult your foes at the same time.
Re: feedback, a lot of the stuff you are suggesting is already done by the Way of the Open Hand Monk. They have a high level ability that let's them insta-kill half the Monster Manual eve if they make their CON Save. But it costs Ki. Anything powerful for the Monk costs Ki. If you like the idea of dodging and redirecting your foe's melee strikes to hit other enemies, I suggest looking into the Drunken Master Monk.
The Monk class is trickier to play than most melee classes b/c it's heavily dependent on resource management. Your resource being your Ki points. Positioning yourself to minimize getting hit in the first place is helpful. Use your mobility to put obtacles and difficult terrain between yourself and the enemy bruisers after getting your own hits in.
If you like the feel of a DEX melee character over a STR melee character and don't want to manage resources so much, I recommend looking into the Swashbuckler subclass of the Rogue. You get advantage to your sneak attacks very easily and gives you an excuse to insult your foes at the same time.
It sounds like the real issue is the number of short rests per adventure day in the posters campaign. If the DM/party isn't giving the monk opportunity for 2-3 short rests then they are underpowered at low levels. The easiest fix is adding WIS modifier to the Ki pool.
I love playing Monks, and I do not think they are underpowered. They are even more resource dependent than spellcasters, so if your campaign is not giving you enough short rests, that can be a problem. The easiest fix is just to increase the Ki pool by WIS modifier. It helps at lower levels without becoming overpowered at high.
I do find the Monk doesn't scale as well as it could. They have a great AC at lower levels, but end up spending all their ASIs just keeping up. That is just fine as long as one is not using multiclassing or feat options. However it is frustrating as a Monk to watch others take cool feats or two level dips and knowing that would be AC suicide. Simple fix: Change the Unarmored Defense AC calculation to 8+Proficiency+Dex+Wis. Same AC at lower levels, but it scales without having to dump all ASIs into Wis and Dex, This means the Monk will have the same AC as the Barbarian using a shield at level 20. What I have found in my games, is that in reality Monks keep the same AC, and just choose more Feats or two level dips into Rouge, Ranger, and Druid.
-make flurry of blows an always on ability that replaces the bonus action unarmed bonus attack.
-opportunity attacks against the monk are made at disadvantage
-have the flurry of blows number of attacks scale at a rate that replicates half proficiency(rounded up), but increases at specific monk levels. (5 and 13 respectively)
-start the martial art die at 1D6 and end on 1d12.
- monk hit die change to 1d10.
- make deflect missiles turn on automatically when using the dodge action. Have it reduce all ranged weapon attack damage that still hit while dodging in this way.
-when ever a monk uses the dodge action they gain an additional bonus to AC equal their wisdom or dexterity modifier until the next round
-give base class monks the Dwarven fortitude feat
-base stunning strike, and all monk abilities with save DC key off dexterity
-have Unarmored defense increase in static amounts equal to your proficiency, but based on class levels.
I don’t know why but I enjoy the idea of the monk class being able to use the dodge action in ways no other class can.
I suppose i should preface this with i like monks and i have played in many enjoyable campaigns as a monk but they just cant keep up in mid to late game
"Don't see how it a glascannon it has 10+Dex+Wis this can end up to 20 AC"
10+dex+wis with point buy we can end up with two 16's and a 14 in con, that would give you a 16 AC that maxes out at 20 in late game and 10 hp. A fighter lvl 1 gets chain mail and a shield that's 18 AC and they could take the defensive fighting style for another +1 which maxes out at 22 AC with no magic items plus a d10 hit die. Even better is the barbarian with unarmored scaling off constitution which synergizes extremely well with there d12 hit die and rage, and they can use a shield plus there capstone increases their unarmored defense.
"Dodge bonus action for 1 ki disadvantage on all attack on him if he can see them which is huge"
it cost 1 ki a very limited resource, and it uses your bonus action which means you wont be using your flurry of blows the only way to stay relevant in damage beyond fifth level.
"kensei monk has trigger to get +2 ac"
i agree this is nice but its part of a subclass
"deflect missil,evasion, stunning strike"
deflect missile: reaction to try and stop one projectile but what about the second, third or even forth. Evasion compensating for their poor health you get the same thing the rouge dose except the rouge is at its best when its at range. stunning strike at level 4 and 8 you will have to choose between dexterity to hit more constantly and do more damage or wisdom to increase your save DC and with constitution being one of the most prominent save with monsters your not going to successfully get this thing off very often
"purity body, diamond soul"
Purity of body: immune to disease is meh, but immunity to poison is nice it comes online a little late at 10th level. diamond soul prof. to all saves nothing special here. paladins ad there charisma modifier to all saves and to allies with there auras range . 1 ki to re-roll a failed save isn't bad but why is it use the second result and not the better result.
"The biggest problem ofcourse that his armor depend on his stats so it takes awhile but the rest of his kit has alot of defensive option/feat"
i wouldn't say that there AC is there biggest problem but it is a large one. as for there other "defensive options" they are at best lack luster and can easily be duplicated with with spells including other monk features not listed here.
Monk mostly suffers from the fact that its subclass features are powered by its class feature resource. This pretty much doesn't happen with any other martial (see paladin for the exact opposite issue).
Monks would be better balanced with either a separate pool for subclass features (they are already moving in this direction with UA Dragon Monk giving PB uses per short rest of subclass features) or go with extra Ki.
Ki = WIS mod would make a lot of sense but I also think it would be too much focus on WIS mod and make it even more of a punishment for taking a feat while monks already suffer the most of any martials to do so.
Thats why ultimately I would do PB number of uses for subclass stuff.
I would like more damage on the unarmed strikes. I like the idea of starting at 1d6 and ending at 1d12
I think it should be a d10 hit die.
I would be pretty happy with those. Along with a DM that is not afraid to replace magic items in the module with more Monk-friendly ones.
Just peg the martial arts damage die to proficiency die and it'll reach 1d12 at L17. But monks swing for 1d8 with their spears at L1 anyway, and I doubt just tweaking their numbers to be bigger - slightly more damage and slightly more hit points - would have a significant impact. As others in this thread have emphasized, the real issue is an over-reliance on ki for shenanigans. But I do agree, tweaking their damage upwards would be entirely reasonable as part of a larger change.
Another change I firmly support is letting ttem count monk weapons as having the finesse property.
Monk mostly suffers from the fact that its subclass features are powered by its class feature resource. This pretty much doesn't happen with any other martial (see paladin for the exact opposite issue).
This pretty much exactly. Competing resource management is a big problem that turns subclass features into something less valuable than maybe they should be. You can see this whenever people about their favorite/strongest subclasses, the ones on top are the ones that either have ridiculously good Ki skills or have things that work independently of Ki.... Alchemist Artificiers kind of have the same problem, where they need to power their subclass with spell slots which makes the class compete against itself. It's universally pretty lame when this happens.
Though I'd also say Monks really suffer from Stunning Strike too. It's a really heavy and swingy feature.
Try using patient defense instead of flurry and stuns.
Still feeling squishy?
Roll a Hill Dwarf with the Dwarven fortitude feat. Every time you take the dodge action with your patient defense, you can restore a hit die+CON.
STILL feeling squishy? Role a way of mercy that gives a healing slap to the face.
Or just learn to play monk instead of thinking the class is the problem.
So just because they can dodge as a BA its solves the issue with their resource problems?
The fact you have to trade off your main offensive features (Stun/Flurry) to just survive with the lower HP total AND to do so you have to spend resource points that also power pretty much everything that makes you unique is not a great trade off.
The builds you mention work but you have big trade offs with having to take a feat and hit dice are precious resources as they are the only thing not fully restored on a long rest and you want to burn through them like candy?
Mercy Monk is fair but if you are using your healz for yourself you are not healing your party and you have to use flurry to use it anyway so your point is lost there as you wont be able to BA dodge....so really I am not sure what your point is with the Mercy monk?
Sure you will survive but at what cost? You will live long enough to be downed slightly later on or to run away.
Nothing about these builds even remotely touch the issues with Monk as you still have to burn your class resources to power your subclass abilities which is poor design IMO.
What other class has subclasses that force you to use class resources to power a subclass ability?
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Try using patient defense instead of flurry and stuns.
Still feeling squishy?
Roll a Hill Dwarf with the Dwarven fortitude feat. Every time you take the dodge action with your patient defense, you can restore a hit die+CON.
STILL feeling squishy? Role a way of mercy that gives a healing slap to the face.
Or just learn to play monk instead of thinking the class is the problem.
Using Patient Defense or playing a dwarf... doesn't do anything to make Stunning Strike less of a problematic class feature or fix the overaching issue of resource management or do anything to improve weak subclasses.
Astonishingly useless advice.
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As critical feedback this might work in the context as a subspec.
But as written 3rd i would use the reaction and the same damage redyction range as deflect missles. If you reduce to zero, you can toss at the cost of 1 ki. Sane with the 6th reaction to trigger, ki for damage.
10 is overpoweres without a save, as it is improved stunnjng blow. I might change it to a hold person, cost 1ki with concentration checks. That prevents its use on multiple opponents, and allows saves at end of round. Thematically see "crouching tiger hidden dragon" and the first fight with Jade Fox.
14th needs balancing. It is an at will defense, but no cost. You could (again) do a damage resist at a cost of reaction ir ki. A better way might be similar to the Tomb of Levistious (sp) or a globe of invulnerability for just you on a single round, recharge on short rest.
Finally, i play a Kensai and the key is indeed evasion OR the right melee partner. In my case it is ancestral guardian barabarian...so that is close to permemant dodge when dealing with the barbs primary target. And i have bow and speed so if i font want to engage, i dont.
GLHF
Re: feedback, a lot of the stuff you are suggesting is already done by the Way of the Open Hand Monk. They have a high level ability that let's them insta-kill half the Monster Manual eve if they make their CON Save. But it costs Ki. Anything powerful for the Monk costs Ki. If you like the idea of dodging and redirecting your foe's melee strikes to hit other enemies, I suggest looking into the Drunken Master Monk.
The Monk class is trickier to play than most melee classes b/c it's heavily dependent on resource management. Your resource being your Ki points. Positioning yourself to minimize getting hit in the first place is helpful. Use your mobility to put obtacles and difficult terrain between yourself and the enemy bruisers after getting your own hits in.
If you like the feel of a DEX melee character over a STR melee character and don't want to manage resources so much, I recommend looking into the Swashbuckler subclass of the Rogue. You get advantage to your sneak attacks very easily and gives you an excuse to insult your foes at the same time.
It sounds like the real issue is the number of short rests per adventure day in the posters campaign. If the DM/party isn't giving the monk opportunity for 2-3 short rests then they are underpowered at low levels. The easiest fix is adding WIS modifier to the Ki pool.
I love playing Monks, and I do not think they are underpowered. They are even more resource dependent than spellcasters, so if your campaign is not giving you enough short rests, that can be a problem. The easiest fix is just to increase the Ki pool by WIS modifier. It helps at lower levels without becoming overpowered at high.
I do find the Monk doesn't scale as well as it could. They have a great AC at lower levels, but end up spending all their ASIs just keeping up. That is just fine as long as one is not using multiclassing or feat options. However it is frustrating as a Monk to watch others take cool feats or two level dips and knowing that would be AC suicide. Simple fix: Change the Unarmored Defense AC calculation to 8+Proficiency+Dex+Wis. Same AC at lower levels, but it scales without having to dump all ASIs into Wis and Dex, This means the Monk will have the same AC as the Barbarian using a shield at level 20. What I have found in my games, is that in reality Monks keep the same AC, and just choose more Feats or two level dips into Rouge, Ranger, and Druid.
Simpler still:
Flurry of blows does not cost Ki and is triggered by any action not just the attack action.
Anything which is reliant on flurry of blows (like way of the open hand options) now costs 1ki per effect.
Simple, you can now use your Ki for all those other effects including stunning strike.
-Get rid of flurry of blows ki cost
-make flurry of blows an always on ability that replaces the bonus action unarmed bonus attack.
-opportunity attacks against the monk are made at disadvantage
-have the flurry of blows number of attacks scale at a rate that replicates half proficiency(rounded up), but increases at specific monk levels. (5 and 13 respectively)
-start the martial art die at 1D6 and end on 1d12.
- monk hit die change to 1d10.
- make deflect missiles turn on automatically when using the dodge action. Have it reduce all ranged weapon attack damage that still hit while dodging in this way.
-when ever a monk uses the dodge action they gain an additional bonus to AC equal their wisdom or dexterity modifier until the next round
-give base class monks the Dwarven fortitude feat
-base stunning strike, and all monk abilities with save DC key off dexterity
-have Unarmored defense increase in static amounts equal to your proficiency, but based on class levels.
I don’t know why but I enjoy the idea of the monk class being able to use the dodge action in ways no other class can.
I suppose i should preface this with i like monks and i have played in many enjoyable campaigns as a monk but they just cant keep up in mid to late game
10+dex+wis with point buy we can end up with two 16's and a 14 in con, that would give you a 16 AC that maxes out at 20 in late game and 10 hp. A fighter lvl 1 gets chain mail and a shield that's 18 AC and they could take the defensive fighting style for another +1 which maxes out at 22 AC with no magic items plus a d10 hit die. Even better is the barbarian with unarmored scaling off constitution which synergizes extremely well with there d12 hit die and rage, and they can use a shield plus there capstone increases their unarmored defense.
it cost 1 ki a very limited resource, and it uses your bonus action which means you wont be using your flurry of blows the only way to stay relevant in damage beyond fifth level.
i agree this is nice but its part of a subclass
deflect missile: reaction to try and stop one projectile but what about the second, third or even forth. Evasion compensating for their poor health you get the same thing the rouge dose except the rouge is at its best when its at range. stunning strike at level 4 and 8 you will have to choose between dexterity to hit more constantly and do more damage or wisdom to increase your save DC and with constitution being one of the most prominent save with monsters your not going to successfully get this thing off very often
Purity of body: immune to disease is meh, but immunity to poison is nice it comes online a little late at 10th level. diamond soul prof. to all saves nothing special here. paladins ad there charisma modifier to all saves and to allies with there auras range . 1 ki to re-roll a failed save isn't bad but why is it use the second result and not the better result.
i wouldn't say that there AC is there biggest problem but it is a large one. as for there other "defensive options" they are at best lack luster and can easily be duplicated with with spells including other monk features not listed here.
here treantmonk lays it out pretty well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aaqq7iZUmMk
Bobbybaker.
I like most of this but id probably have there class DC and unarmored run of there con.
yes but they come back on short rest if you cnat bunker down for an hour your bad adventures
I have some ideas about how to improve the Monk.
I would like more damage on the unarmed strikes. I like the idea of starting at 1d6 and ending at 1d12
I think it should be a d10 hit die.
I would be pretty happy with those. Along with a DM that is not afraid to replace magic items in the module with more Monk-friendly ones.
My simple Monk Fix...One of the following
You get extra Ki = WIS mod per short rest.
Separate resource pool for subclass abilities
Monk mostly suffers from the fact that its subclass features are powered by its class feature resource. This pretty much doesn't happen with any other martial (see paladin for the exact opposite issue).
Monks would be better balanced with either a separate pool for subclass features (they are already moving in this direction with UA Dragon Monk giving PB uses per short rest of subclass features) or go with extra Ki.
Ki = WIS mod would make a lot of sense but I also think it would be too much focus on WIS mod and make it even more of a punishment for taking a feat while monks already suffer the most of any martials to do so.
Thats why ultimately I would do PB number of uses for subclass stuff.
Just peg the martial arts damage die to proficiency die and it'll reach 1d12 at L17. But monks swing for 1d8 with their spears at L1 anyway, and I doubt just tweaking their numbers to be bigger - slightly more damage and slightly more hit points - would have a significant impact. As others in this thread have emphasized, the real issue is an over-reliance on ki for shenanigans. But I do agree, tweaking their damage upwards would be entirely reasonable as part of a larger change.
Another change I firmly support is letting ttem count monk weapons as having the finesse property.
Treantmonk had a really good idea for monk class modifications.
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LpZRWecnLYRLIHtDIgL
He also has a video explaining his thinking.
https://youtu.be/i-ZOw5i7eJE
I like it
This pretty much exactly. Competing resource management is a big problem that turns subclass features into something less valuable than maybe they should be. You can see this whenever people about their favorite/strongest subclasses, the ones on top are the ones that either have ridiculously good Ki skills or have things that work independently of Ki.... Alchemist Artificiers kind of have the same problem, where they need to power their subclass with spell slots which makes the class compete against itself. It's universally pretty lame when this happens.
Though I'd also say Monks really suffer from Stunning Strike too. It's a really heavy and swingy feature.
Try using patient defense instead of flurry and stuns.
Still feeling squishy?
Roll a Hill Dwarf with the Dwarven fortitude feat. Every time you take the dodge action with your patient defense, you can restore a hit die+CON.
STILL feeling squishy? Role a way of mercy that gives a healing slap to the face.
Or just learn to play monk instead of thinking the class is the problem.
So just because they can dodge as a BA its solves the issue with their resource problems?
The fact you have to trade off your main offensive features (Stun/Flurry) to just survive with the lower HP total AND to do so you have to spend resource points that also power pretty much everything that makes you unique is not a great trade off.
The builds you mention work but you have big trade offs with having to take a feat and hit dice are precious resources as they are the only thing not fully restored on a long rest and you want to burn through them like candy?
Mercy Monk is fair but if you are using your healz for yourself you are not healing your party and you have to use flurry to use it anyway so your point is lost there as you wont be able to BA dodge....so really I am not sure what your point is with the Mercy monk?
Sure you will survive but at what cost? You will live long enough to be downed slightly later on or to run away.
Nothing about these builds even remotely touch the issues with Monk as you still have to burn your class resources to power your subclass abilities which is poor design IMO.
What other class has subclasses that force you to use class resources to power a subclass ability?
You’re supposed to be squishy. You can mitigate that squishy feeling by playing smart or choosing class options that strengthen the weakness.. And yes, you are supposed to balance offense with against defense by “sacrificing” your offensive choices by going defensive. And “burn” your class resources that get restored after a short rest. They’re not that precious. They’re meant to be used.
and Paladin, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid all require you to “burn” your class resources to power a subclass ability.
Using Patient Defense or playing a dwarf... doesn't do anything to make Stunning Strike less of a problematic class feature or fix the overaching issue of resource management or do anything to improve weak subclasses.
Astonishingly useless advice.