Way of the Open Palm like Mickey said looks more powerful on the surface. But it takes a bit more prep and a real understanding of what your trying to do for it to play in a balanced and strong way because attempting the wrong kind of extra affect can really come back to bite you against the wrong opponent. Even with a good DC. And Flurry of blows is a bit over rated but it's key to making Way of the Open Palm's basic primary effects work which is actually problematic. This can actually be detrimental considering that Open Palm which already requires you to be blowing Ki on every round that you want to take advantage of Open Hand Technique and open hand technique only works on the last 2 attacks of the round meaning it only has an affect on a maximum of two attacks on at most two creatures. It's not really sustainable.
Quivering palm is far from a 1 turn kill... or even a guaranteed kill. There are several ways to mitigate it's damage and some things it just plain just can't do enough to actually significantly affect them in a way that a decent cure spell won't immediately fix. This can actually be detrimental considering that Open Palm which already requires you to be blowing Ki on every round that you want to take advantage of Open Hand Technique and open hand technique only works on the last 2 attacks of the round meaning it only has an affect on a maximum of two attacks on at most two creatures. It's not really sustainable.
Tranquility is a trap. It only has an affect for you when being ambushed or you refuse to fight. Once you use it. It will not protect you in any way from any other fights for the rest of the day. It sounds super powered. many tend to think that about the Sanctuary spell. But it has a fatal weakness in that you do not control when it's cast to say when it gets to affect you. You just start the day with it. If you have a sparring match or a fight that morning. poof it's gone for the bar brawl or whatever happens that afternoon or evening no matter how many short rests you use.
Drunken Master suffers from similar issues simply because it also relies a fair bit on Flurry of Blows. But it does a little better. But it's a bit easier to play in a balanced or strong manner.
~~~~
Many people's favorite in Way of the Shadow is actually a bit OP. It actually has a bit too many things that are either free or cost a very tiny amount that get slapped onto the core Monk Class. It can go a little spend crazy in ways that few other monk subclasses get to do. And that may be part of why it's compared so heavily against more Ki heavy subclasses like Way of the 4 elements to talk about how underpowered and under whelming they seem to be.
Way of the Kensai is similar. It's actually fairly low cost as far as sub classes go and grants quite a bit of benefit. It's only real drawback is that it does lock you into using just a couple of weapons and to take full advantage of the kit they have to be non-magical weapons so you may lose out on some extra benefits magical weapons might provide you or you skip out on certain benefits of your kit which inadvertently may actually be a bonus because it's one less thing you would spend Ki on.
~~~~~
Way of the Long Death is mostly a bit underwhelming, but it is low cost and if you get high enough level it does kind of make up for it. It has one move that's potentially expensive but is the closest to an outright kill move that monks have maxing out at 20d10 of necrotic damage. Which can be mitigated but has a very high damage potential.
The cobalt Soul monk is hard to quantify in some respects because it has some real out of combat uses to some of it's powers. But the in combat ones can get fairly high cost pretty quickly at higher levels and have some circumstances that have to be met to work (such as multiple strikes) That being said. It could be argued that the advantages gotten used in the right way could be worth the costs.
Way of the 4 elements can definitely be ki heavy in the way it works. Particularly at low level. It's also the most maligned for this but smartly used it's benefits can actually be more dramatic than people expect. It can fall into the same traps as some of the above in that people have things so they want to use them constantly and it in some respects can fall into the Fury of Blows trap of wanting to increase or augment every attack. it's biggest weakness is that it could actually due to give you a couple more elemental disciplines learned over the levels despite the costs to give you a little more to your bag of tricks. But for relatively low Ki Costs and the right elemental disciplines you can actually get some very handy editions to a monks kit that are found in surprisingly few places.
~~~
But monks have an added issue. it's a matter of what you actually build them for. If your picking a Way and a Style that relies heavily on Save. Wisdom is your primary stat. Dexterity can come second and more slowly in incriments that just help you keep hitting things often enough and you can play around that fact with certain styles of play that make up for a bit of lack of dexterity and slightly lower AC more easily than most would expect. If your playing a higher Dex one that doesn't rely as much on the powers with saving throw aspects then it can be ok if you don't get your wisdom quite as high right away.
So you need to be asking yourself. Is the way I'm wanting to play complimentary to the kind of monk that I want to play. For plenty of people they may actually conflict and that will cause problems and feel a bit underwhelming. For others that have matched them well some things may feel a little too easy.
I don't believe Drunken Master really suffers from anything, or really relies on anything except the skill of the actual player (which is a tautological truth for every class).
It's made to be the slipperiest of all the traditions. All monks ought to be played as a skirmisher--get in, take out or incapacitate a strategic target, get out--and Drunken Master gives a ton of options for those moments when you can't get back out without a little extra something. That's when you Flurry.
Need to keep the attention of a group or especially tough opponent? That's when you use Patient Defense (all Monks), and combo it with Redirect Attack via Tipsy Sway. Make that tough opponent cleave its' own allies to do your work for you.
Have disadvantage on a crucial roll? Nah, you got Drunkard's Luck.
The only thing that I really feel could be improved is how the entirety of Intoxicated Frenzy is at level 17. That is a defining feature of the subclass, and I think it should be handled the same way that Kensei Weapons are: one additional Flurry attack at 6, two at 11, and three at 17. There should be a progression to it, rather than a magnificent surge of minion-sweeping capability at a level that most players will never reach.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Agile parry is a really bad feat I don’t think anyone should factor into AC calculations.
yea because a free +2 ac that costs you nothing is bad...
It does cost you a lot! You have to give up a weapon attack for an unarmed strike. This is one of the reasons I dislike the Way of the Kensai. Their abilities constantly compete with other things.
You want a magic weapon with + elemental damage so you can deal effective damage? Ok but you’re ki power up only works on nonmagic weapons and you have to give up an attack for your measly unarmed strike if you want the AC.
They should’ve just given you +2 AC period while wielding a melee kensai weapon. It would effectively let you have a free shield which isn’t overpowered due to monks having lower ac to start and other “shield” users can get magic shields for better AC.
Their ability to add unarmed dice to damage should’ve been like a mini smite able to deal more damage the more ki you spend. That or it deals double your unarmed strike damage. As it stands it’s pathetic the amount of damage it adds when you could be doing stunning strike.
Also great breakdown Fateless! I will say the sun soul monk gets bonus points for having an effective ranged option, but I agree shadow monk is the best.
Agile parry is a really bad feat I don’t think anyone should factor into AC calculations.
yea because a free +2 ac that costs you nothing is bad...
It does cost you a lot! You have to give up a weapon attack for an unarmed strike. This is one of the reasons I dislike the Way of the Kensai. Their abilities constantly compete with other things.
You want a magic weapon with + elemental damage so you can deal effective damage? Ok but you’re ki power up only works on nonmagic weapons and you have to give up an attack for your measly unarmed strike if you want the AC.
They should’ve just given you +2 AC period while wielding a melee kensai weapon. It would effectively let you have a free shield which isn’t overpowered due to monks having lower ac to start and other “shield” users can get magic shields for better AC.
Their ability to add unarmed dice to damage should’ve been like a mini smite able to deal more damage the more ki you spend. That or it deals double your unarmed strike damage. As it stands it’s pathetic the amount of damage it adds when you could be doing stunning strike.
Also great breakdown Fateless! I will say the sun soul monk gets bonus points for having an effective ranged option, but I agree shadow monk is the best.
Sounds to me like you really just wanted to play a Samurai (Fighter), not a Kensei (Monk).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The only thing that I really feel could be improved is how the entirety of Intoxicated Frenzy is at level 17. That is a defining feature of the subclass, and I think it should be handled the same way that Kensei Weapons are: one additional Flurry attack at 6, two at 11, and three at 17. There should be a progression to it, rather than a magnificent surge of minion-sweeping capability at a level that most players will never reach.
Actually, it feels strange to me that their capstone happens much later than a similar ability to Hunter Rangers have the option to get at 11th level. Or am I agreeing with you? Anyway, it's not all that powerful for a 17th level ability and probably should have been there at 11.
The only thing that I really feel could be improved is how the entirety of Intoxicated Frenzy is at level 17. That is a defining feature of the subclass, and I think it should be handled the same way that Kensei Weapons are: one additional Flurry attack at 6, two at 11, and three at 17. There should be a progression to it, rather than a magnificent surge of minion-sweeping capability at a level that most players will never reach.
Actually, it feels strange to me that their capstone happens much later than a similar ability to Hunter Rangers have the option to get at 11th level. Or am I agreeing with you? Anyway, it's not all that powerful for a 17th level ability and probably should have been there at 11.
I do believe you are agreeing with me. 😂
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Also great breakdown Fateless! I will say the sun soul monk gets bonus points for having an effective ranged option, but I agree shadow monk is the best.
I forgot sunsoul monk but then they are kind of tied up in their gimmick and suffer in a couple ways. Not all of their powers actually mix. Their powers cap out weirdly with the burning hands affect (that can only be used in the place of your bonus attack and blocks you from using flurry and other bonus action class features) actually ends up scaling better and doing more at the cost of potentially ridiculous amounts of Ki in a single attack (almost double what can be spent by even the strongest 4 elements attack). It costs you Ki to use it's ranged gimmick more than once a round and can only be done with your main attacks. The pseudo fireball stops at the base fireball in castable ability and is slightly weaker except doing radiant damage and stops you from doing all of your martial arts for the turn. And it's 17th level ability is far more lackluster than what people are feeling that Drunken Master's is with it's extra flurry of blows attacks on increased number of targets. It only activates on a physical hit (already limiting it's affectiveness by quite a lot) and then it can only manage to do a maximum of 10 damage per hit. The only two things it's really going to start getting significant or fend off are Fighters and other monks because they are the only two that can make significant multiple attacks to make it trigger multiple times. And the cost of that is that it turns you into a glowing magical beacon for all the spell casters and ranged attackers to pelt en-masse with an easily trackable target AND it costs you a bonus action to turn on and off. So any turn you want to start or stop using it. You can't use anything else that would use a bonus action. Such as Flurry of Blows, patient defense, step of the wind, AND your searing arc ability which is arguably one of the biggest attacks that the Sun Soul Monk has if it's willing to spend that ludicrous amount of Ki to make it that powerful.
As for the 17th level ability of the Drunken Master. The problem isn't exactly that it should build up in usefulness. Because reguardless of that. Just how often are you going to be finding yourself in a position where you can even use it to it's full extent unless your deliberately putting yourself in potentially lethal situations to make use of it? You need multiple different opponents to make it work. Which means multiple flank potentials. The possibility of being surrounded and unable to get away, And likely quite a few chances to make effects like Disengage not matter because one of them has something like Sentinel or some other nasty ability that's going to ruin your day. It'd be a little different if all of it's blows could be laid into just one or two targets. And every time you use flurry of blows your going to be spending uses of this power, as well as it's low level power to disengage even if you don't take advantage of what they are giving you. They aren't actually independent abilities and powers of their own.
As for the 17th level ability of the Drunken Master. The problem isn't exactly that it should build up in usefulness. Because reguardless of that. Just how often are you going to be finding yourself in a position where you can even use it to it's full extent unless your deliberately putting yourself in potentially lethal situations to make use of it?
Nearly every single encounter my Drunken Master has had in CoS, and I'm nowhere near high enough level to have Intoxicated Frenzy yet. Being a one-bird clean-up crew/carpet-bomber is incredibly potent as a skirmisher. "Buzzing the tower" is his go to maneuver.
You need multiple different opponents to make it work.
Which means multiple flank potentials.
The possibility of being surrounded and unable to get away, And likely quite a few chances to make effects like Disengage not matter because one of them has something like Sentinel or some other nasty ability that's going to ruin your day.
Most encounters are going to have multiple opponents.
This is a risk no matter what you are playing, and even then the risk is minimal if you're playing intelligently to begin with. Monks are already the master of battlefield mobility. Drunken Masters are even better at it. Don't end your turn in an exposed position.
Again... play intelligently. If actually being surrounded/immobilized is a possibility, don't put yourself into that exposed position to begin with. You don't have to use 100% of the actions available to you every turn, nor should you if it ends with you in a weaker overall position.
I'm not aware of any non-homebrew creatures with Sentinel or Sentinel-like-features. I'm sure they exist, but it's unlikely to come up that often.
It'd be a little different if all of it's blows could be laid into just one or two targets. And every time you use flurry of blows your going to be spending uses of this power, as well as it's low level power to disengage even if you don't take advantage of what they are giving you. They aren't actually independent abilities and powers of their own.
The Flurry of Blows unarmed strikes from Intoxicated Frenzy have to attack different targets, but not the regular attacks from the Attack action. If you need to hit something twice, pepper it with the regular attack(s) & one of the unarmed strikes.
I do wish the multiple target condition wasn't in there... it does feel overly-restrictive for a capstone ability, but I wouldn't mind at all if there was a progression up to the full power of the current level 17 version.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Agile parry is a really bad feat I don’t think anyone should factor into AC calculations.
yea because a free +2 ac that costs you nothing is bad...
It does cost you a lot! You have to give up a weapon attack for an unarmed strike. This is one of the reasons I dislike the Way of the Kensai. Their abilities constantly compete with other things.
You want a magic weapon with + elemental damage so you can deal effective damage? Ok but you’re ki power up only works on nonmagic weapons and you have to give up an attack for your measly unarmed strike if you want the AC.
They should’ve just given you +2 AC period while wielding a melee kensai weapon. It would effectively let you have a free shield which isn’t overpowered due to monks having lower ac to start and other “shield” users can get magic shields for better AC.
Their ability to add unarmed dice to damage should’ve been like a mini smite able to deal more damage the more ki you spend. That or it deals double your unarmed strike damage. As it stands it’s pathetic the amount of damage it adds when you could be doing stunning strike.
You can use sharpen the blade with magic weapons. It just can't be a +1,2,3 weapon.
Agile Parry at level 5 when you get extra attack your giving up an average of 2 damage for an increase of 2 to your AC. Seems like a no brainer. (And that's only if your using a d10 weapon.)
Sigred Anything that can have a class, which is actually a surprising amount of things, can have Sentinel.
Also you cannot guarantee everything will be in suitable range for attacking. Specially if you have DM that's splitting up targets or playing enemies with any intelligence at all. There are ways they can spread out or do things to counter movement. There is also not always the chance to end your turn in an unexposed position. Particularly if your trying to chase down enough enemies to use all your hits on every turn.
but none of that shakes the fact that the capstone would still be far more useful if you weren't required to spread out all the flurry hits. At the higher levels tossing in a couple of main hits isn't anything spectacular. It's the culmination of those 7 hits that would be something spectacular and worrisome. So that is why I ignored the main hits. They are not a main feature of that power and while they take place they do not factor into the actual requirements of using it and it modifies flurry in a way that forces you to seek out spread damage which means it's a power that is far more likely to be negated at higher levels because of any number of area healing affects and it still requires action economy that actually in some ways works against it's own optimal use because you have no ability to actually combine it with anything like step of the wind.
And anything that requires your flurry of blows to work is actually action economy heavy so you are set in what you are going to do for that turn. The only way to activate Flurry is to both Spend your Bonus Action and do so AFTER your main action has been used to take the Attack Action so your entire turn is locked into attacking just so you can get a bit of a disengage and if your lucky 3 extra hits. And while the inability to dash is offset somewhat by the natural speed boost that monks get that is rather decent at high level. The fact that you have heavy action requirement and a Ki cost every turn that you are going to use said power and you either have to set yourself in danger to set up enemies or pray that your DM is going to play the enemies as stupid as possible so they set themselves up for optimal attacking is pretty bad for ability.And that's the flaw of anything attached to flurry of blows. Very heavy cost in both action economy and the repeated need to spend Ki per turn in combats that are getting increasingly longer against enemies that require more and more sustained hits the higher you level gets meaning more rounds that you must expend those costs for every turn that you wish to use them.
Open Hand suffers from the same problem in that like Drunken Master a fair bit of it's core features are actually tied into Flurry of blows. To use it in any single turn your turn is dedicated to a particular kind of action and your spending your ki as a resource on top of it. The biggest difference is that Drunken Master tries to mitigate some of the damage though adding in the disengage and Open Hand tries to mitigate some of the pressure on your healers with it's inferior version of Lay on Hands that can only work on oneself. But Open Hand at least has a decent capstone even if it's not actually what it is kind of advertised as(that being of a death punch or 1 hit kill move). It's actually a flaw that I considered applying to Cobalt Soul as well because in some ways it does apply but like I said it's hard to quantify and there are arguments to be made both ways for it. There is also the issue that Cobalt Soul may or may not see edits (that may or may not make it into official publication) as it is played and matt has a chance to fully test and tweak it much like happened with the Gunslinger kit. I believe he's already made a couple of potentially necessary slight alterations to it just since publication.
Also you cannot guarantee everything will be in suitable range for attacking. Specially if you have DM that's splitting up targets or playing enemies with any intelligence at all. There are ways they can spread out or do things to counter movement. There is also not always the chance to end your turn in an unexposed position. Particularly if your trying to chase down enough enemies to use all your hits on every turn.
Prime example of what I mean by not playing intelligently. You don't have to use every tool available to you at all times, and over-extending yourself like this is less effective than using some of your attacks & ending your turn in a more advantageous position. This is skirmisher 101.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
here's the problem with that. if you use flurry. You pay the cost for those maneuvers. Even if you don't use them. If you don't play for Flurry. You can't use them. If you do anything in a turn that takes up your action you cannot use them. It's not just about not using something. There are a lot of restrictions on when you can't use them. I'm aware that moderation can be a good thing for monks. But having them tied to something like Flurry is costly in more ways than just the Ki expenditure that people see on the sheet and it is often ignored. And it is something that has to be kept in mind for those subclasses that rely on it and it can be problematic at times.
Also you cannot guarantee everything will be in suitable range for attacking. Specially if you have DM that's splitting up targets or playing enemies with any intelligence at all. There are ways they can spread out or do things to counter movement. There is also not always the chance to end your turn in an unexposed position. Particularly if your trying to chase down enough enemies to use all your hits on every turn.
First off. Absolutely everything about Sigred's previous post seems to scream: 'This is stupid, don't do it'. Then you posted this which is exactly what he said not to do. It seems kind of silly that this came after his previous post. I don't need to get into that, though, Sigred already pointed this out, and you already made a new counter argument so I will get to that.
here's the problem with that. if you use flurry. You pay the cost for those maneuvers. Even if you don't use them.
Honestly it doesn't matter if you pay the cost of something that can't be used to it's fullest, as long as you get use out of it, it still gives something. And they don't balance everything based off getting maximum value. If this ability allowed 3 extra strikes to the main target, and then the monk could hit every target he comes within 5 feet of during his turn you could make the same argument: You paid for potentially hundreds of strikes against hundreds of foes, but there weren't hundreds of foes to strike so you lost didn't get the full value of what you paid for. This is like complaining that fireball didn't get its full value because it didn't hit 10 enemies, does that mean it didn't get value worth its cost? no, I'm sure you knew how many it would hit when you cast it, yet you still cast it. There are certainly restrictions on when you can get value out of intoxicated frenzy, but that isn't the issue, the issue is whether you get enough value out of it to justify it being a level 17 feature. Personally, I feel the answer is no.
That said, I don't believe anybody has pointed out what intoxicated frenzy is really meant for. Adding 10.5 average damage (not considering the attacks have to hit) to 3 more creatures in a round, while forcing the monk to spread his damage thin would constitute for a very pathetic for a level 17 feature (though there are other high level features that I would consider to be just as pathetic). The purpose of intoxicated frenzy is entirely to spread the stun far, I know, costly, but it is pretty much the only way you get any real value out of the feature. With just 3 targets you go from 4 strikes to 5, 2 chances per enemy to stun 2 enemies, 1 chance to stun another. This means if your aim is to stun a high number of enemies you get at least some value with just 3 targets. Enough to justify a level 17 feature? Again, I say no. Maybe when you consider hitting 4 creatures it could have the value you needed. Heads up though, hasted level 17 wizard can dash, run 55 ft, drop a wished symbol that activates on condition that he gets 60 ft away (a DM may rule that the activation requirement has to be something within the 10 ft range of the symbol; if they rule this, make the condition your voice speaking a certain word, the sound will reach the symbol) Run 65 ft out causing the symbol to activate, and create a 60 ft zone that targets either charisma, intelligence, constitution, or wisdom (wizards choice). Anything caught in the zone that fails the save would have a hard cc effect that they can't make a second save for until a full minute has passed. A drunken master's ability to AoE crowd control pales in comparison.
but none of that shakes the fact that the capstone would still be far more useful if you weren't required to spread out all the flurry hits. At the higher levels tossing in a couple of main hits isn't anything spectacular. It's the culmination of those 7 hits that would be something spectacular and worrisome. So that is why I ignored the main hits. They are not a main feature of that power and while they take place they do not factor into the actual requirements of using it and it modifies flurry in a way that forces you to seek out spread damage which means it's a power that is far more likely to be negated at higher levels because of any number of area healing affects and it still requires action economy that actually in some ways works against it's own optimal use because you have no ability to actually combine it with anything like step of the wind.
This point I already addressed so I am just reiterating it. Intoxicated frenzy isn't meant for adding more damage, it is meant for stunning more creatures, that will cost a lot so you won't utilize it more than a turn or 2. Won't need to chase things down to use it every turn.
Also you cannot guarantee everything will be in suitable range for attacking. Specially if you have DM that's splitting up targets or playing enemies with any intelligence at all. There are ways they can spread out or do things to counter movement. There is also not always the chance to end your turn in an unexposed position. Particularly if your trying to chase down enough enemies to use all your hits on every turn.
Again addressed that there is at least some value in the feature when hitting 3 creatures. With 70 ft movement (drunken technique included) you will certainly find opportunities, maybe not in every encounter though. You don't need to worry about using the feature every encounter either.
Sigred Anything that can have a class, which is actually a surprising amount of things, can have Sentinel.
If the goal is to stun: sentinels can't make an opportunity attack when stunned, and you have a decent AC anyway. If you suspect sentinel don't move to a place where you are within 5 ft of 2 creatures if you can handle it, move to attack and stun 1, then move again to attack and stun the other. Sometimes they will get you though, and put an end to your plan.
Just how often are you going to be finding yourself in a position where you can even use it to it's full extent unless your deliberately putting yourself in potentially lethal situations to make use of it? You need multiple different opponents to make it work. Which means multiple flank potentials. The possibility of being surrounded and unable to get away
I really wanted to get at this. The monk is a lot more durable than you seem to think, especially at lvl 18, 1 level higher than you get the feature being discussed. He has evasion, decent AC, very high saves (which he can reroll with a ki point), a bunch of the guys around him are likely stunned, if he used 4 ki for empty body he is invisible and has resistance to all damages except force for 1 minute. This likely gives enemies disadvantage if they do attack him.
On to the last thing I want to point out: the cost of using intoxicated fury for stunning. If there are 4 enemies, make 6 attacks, 7 ki is used total, 11 if you wanted advantage all your attacks and the added protection from empty body. the monk will have 17+ ki. If you are expecting the monk to be a 1 man army, this is NOT how you want use your ki. your ki will be spent in 2 to 2 and a half turns. Nothing will be dead and you will be drained. But if that is how you play you aren't playing DnD right (unless it is a 1 man campaign). But! Using this 7 ki at the beginning of a battle to stun 3 or 4 enemies with a team to dish out damage is actually extremely effective for action economy. Ever see a meteor swarm hit 4 incapacitated foes who auto-fail their dex save? You will deal 10.5-21 avg damage to the enemies, your mage will deal 140 avg damage, you will get another turn to deal 10.5-21 damage per enemy (on advantage with attacks again (enemies are incapacitated and if not you are invisible) (you don't need to use stunning fist this time, just the 1 ki flurry, they are probably at deaths gate, stun a healer or more threatening enemy if you need to). Depending on who gets a turn soonest after you, the mage may get a second shot before the enemies get their turn, if not the mage may have had a second shot the turn before you stunned the enemies. So, 2 mage turns, 2 monk turns, other party members get 2 turns too. All before they can take an action
The earlier you stunt the enemies action economy the better your action economy is for the fight. If you started with stunning 4 enemies that died before they got a turn, because they couldn't make dex saves on a meteor swarm and all lost their first turn to stun, you probably won the fight. If not everything was stunned, taking half damage from all but force damage while enemy attacks have disadvantage against you, also having evasion and great saves, makes you a decent tank.
Do I think intoxicated frenzy is a good level 17 feature? No, but it can still turn a situation around with the extra chances to stun multiple enemies. It is one of the (seemingly few) unnoticed things that look worse to people on paper than it does in practice within a party. If you wan't a feature that makes you feel powerful when alone though, this feature certainly isn't one of them.
Whenever I think of the monk's class I feel like this skill is missing ...
When you make a melee attack against a creature and you hit, you don’t provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn.
it would solve half the problems that the monk has .... The role of the monk in my opinion should be like that of the rogue, hitting and Disengage (if not way they given him only d8 hit points?), the difference of the rogue who makes a powerful attack, the monk makes many but weak (even if he will never be able to equalize the damage of the sneak att., 10d6+5 ≠ 3d10+15). The only way to do damage is to use the stun attack to gain advantage and use the feat Great Weapon Master (hoping you hit) the problem is that the monk is one of the classes that receives the least Ability Score Improvement ... so it's hard to focus on dexterity, wisdom and constitution if you also need to take feats...
These would be other abilities that could help the monk have his own fighting style:
Whenever you use Flurry of Blows to attack once, at 11th level you can instead attack twice and three at 17th level.
When a creature within 10 feet of you is reduced to 0 hit points or when you score a critical hit, you can use your reaction to regain ki points equal to your of your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).
Once on each of your turns when you move at least 15 feet and hit a target with your attack, you can deal extra damage to the target equal to your Martial Arts die.
Monks are strange characters. They are not OP, and also do not fit neatly into any tactical roll.
They are not the best controller, the Wizard is. Stunning Strike is good, but it lasts one round, compare with Hypnotic Pattern.
They are not the high damage person.
They are not the Tank. Low AC
They are not the Healer
They are not the Social Master
They are not the Skilled maestro.
They are a strange mix of abilities. Sometimes this means they disrupt the attack strategy (what, you expect me to fall to my death? Slowly?) A bit of controller, a bit of damage, some skills. This makes them very hard to min-max (not a bad thing) and almost never overpowered.
If your DM wants to start a campaign where you have no equipment at all then the Monk (and the Sorcerer) allow you to manage without equipment for a while, though that'd be a pretty brutal way to open.
As well explained before the monk unfortunately was created without a specific role in the group. .. manages to do a little everything but so-so ... making the monk uninteresting.
I know I shouldn't put this info in this chat, but if anyone is interested, I created a Monk subclass with a role of Battlefield control... I think it is the role that suits him best.
Way of the Pressure Points
The way of the Pressure Points is a secretive martial arts handed down from father to son. Based on 4'000 years of knowledge in combat and in the medical research. This martial art is defined mythical not for its killer power but for its adaptability to any enemy. Each new generation of this martial art, after receiving training, travels around the world to test themselves with the most talented fighters and the most fearsome monsters. Each generation aims to improve its style for the next generation by adapting it to the combat of its time. (For this subclass you must have the medicine skill)
Meridian Points
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, with your knowledge in the field of medicine you know of the beneficial and destructive points of the body, your actions can save the life of your friends and yours attacks can be more precise and more painful for your enemy.
The opponents affected by your attacks suffer stings of pain distracting them for a small period of time, for the rest of the turn you don’t provoke opportunity attacks from them.
Your unarmed attacks are more precise and when they hit in the meridian point of yours enemy they can cause critical damage, you score a critical hit on a roll of 19-20 and 18-20 at 15th level.
With a bonus action you can heal a creature next to you, the creature regains hit points equal to your medicine skill + one martial die, but since the energy for healing is extracted directly from the patient, this also takes 3 level of exhaustion. Finishing a short rest can reduces this kind of exhaustion by 1 and a long rest end this condition. You can only use this ability a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), after a long rest you can use it again. At 6th level the exhaustion is reduces at 2, at 11th at 1 and at 17th at 0.
Shura Techniques
With your control of the hidden meridian points at 6th level, you can manipulate your enemy’s ki when you harness your own. Choose one of the following options and whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, with the use of another ki you can impose one of the following effects choose on the target. At 11th, 17th and at 20th level you can choose another one of the Shura techniques.
It must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be blind until the end of your next turn. (ex: fingers in the eyes)
It must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or not be able to move, swimming or fly until the end of your next turn. (ex: the nerves are damaged)
It must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or suffer internal bleeding and take damage equal to one dice of your martial art. It must repeat the saving throw at the start of each of its turns. On each successive failed save, the damage of internal bleeding increases of a martial dice. After three turns the internal bleeding ends.
It must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or not being able to speak until the end of your next turn. (ex: blow to the throat)
It must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 15 feet away from you and fall prone.
It must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be confused by your feint and be at a disadvantage in attacking until the end of your next turn.
Shura Ki
Beginning at 11th level, your control over ki power improves, you are able to attack more quickly and you are able to absorb ki from your opponents during the fight.
When a creature within 10 ft. of you is reduced to 0 hit points you can use your reaction to regain ki points equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), and when you score a critical hit you regain 1 ki.
Whenever you use Flurry of Blows to attack once, now you can instead attack twice times and three at 17th level.
You gain the ability to heal yourself. As an action, you can regain hit points equal to three times your monk level. You must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.
Quivering Palm (you can modify your final attack under the approval of your DM)
At 17th level, you gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 3 ki points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. If it fails, it is reduced to 0 hit points. If it succeeds, it takes 10d10 necrotic damage.
You can have only one creature under the effect of this feature at a time. You can choose to end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.
I can see the monk as a battlefield controller. Just base it on wire-fu (The over the top fighting done in asian karate movies which is obviously done by using wires to make it look like they are jumping/running on air/being hit and flying back).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Way of the Open Palm like Mickey said looks more powerful on the surface. But it takes a bit more prep and a real understanding of what your trying to do for it to play in a balanced and strong way because attempting the wrong kind of extra affect can really come back to bite you against the wrong opponent. Even with a good DC. And Flurry of blows is a bit over rated but it's key to making Way of the Open Palm's basic primary effects work which is actually problematic. This can actually be detrimental considering that Open Palm which already requires you to be blowing Ki on every round that you want to take advantage of Open Hand Technique and open hand technique only works on the last 2 attacks of the round meaning it only has an affect on a maximum of two attacks on at most two creatures. It's not really sustainable.
Quivering palm is far from a 1 turn kill... or even a guaranteed kill. There are several ways to mitigate it's damage and some things it just plain just can't do enough to actually significantly affect them in a way that a decent cure spell won't immediately fix. This can actually be detrimental considering that Open Palm which already requires you to be blowing Ki on every round that you want to take advantage of Open Hand Technique and open hand technique only works on the last 2 attacks of the round meaning it only has an affect on a maximum of two attacks on at most two creatures. It's not really sustainable.
Tranquility is a trap. It only has an affect for you when being ambushed or you refuse to fight. Once you use it. It will not protect you in any way from any other fights for the rest of the day. It sounds super powered. many tend to think that about the Sanctuary spell. But it has a fatal weakness in that you do not control when it's cast to say when it gets to affect you. You just start the day with it. If you have a sparring match or a fight that morning. poof it's gone for the bar brawl or whatever happens that afternoon or evening no matter how many short rests you use.
Drunken Master suffers from similar issues simply because it also relies a fair bit on Flurry of Blows. But it does a little better. But it's a bit easier to play in a balanced or strong manner.
~~~~
Many people's favorite in Way of the Shadow is actually a bit OP. It actually has a bit too many things that are either free or cost a very tiny amount that get slapped onto the core Monk Class. It can go a little spend crazy in ways that few other monk subclasses get to do. And that may be part of why it's compared so heavily against more Ki heavy subclasses like Way of the 4 elements to talk about how underpowered and under whelming they seem to be.
Way of the Kensai is similar. It's actually fairly low cost as far as sub classes go and grants quite a bit of benefit. It's only real drawback is that it does lock you into using just a couple of weapons and to take full advantage of the kit they have to be non-magical weapons so you may lose out on some extra benefits magical weapons might provide you or you skip out on certain benefits of your kit which inadvertently may actually be a bonus because it's one less thing you would spend Ki on.
~~~~~
Way of the Long Death is mostly a bit underwhelming, but it is low cost and if you get high enough level it does kind of make up for it. It has one move that's potentially expensive but is the closest to an outright kill move that monks have maxing out at 20d10 of necrotic damage. Which can be mitigated but has a very high damage potential.
The cobalt Soul monk is hard to quantify in some respects because it has some real out of combat uses to some of it's powers. But the in combat ones can get fairly high cost pretty quickly at higher levels and have some circumstances that have to be met to work (such as multiple strikes) That being said. It could be argued that the advantages gotten used in the right way could be worth the costs.
Way of the 4 elements can definitely be ki heavy in the way it works. Particularly at low level. It's also the most maligned for this but smartly used it's benefits can actually be more dramatic than people expect. It can fall into the same traps as some of the above in that people have things so they want to use them constantly and it in some respects can fall into the Fury of Blows trap of wanting to increase or augment every attack. it's biggest weakness is that it could actually due to give you a couple more elemental disciplines learned over the levels despite the costs to give you a little more to your bag of tricks. But for relatively low Ki Costs and the right elemental disciplines you can actually get some very handy editions to a monks kit that are found in surprisingly few places.
~~~
But monks have an added issue. it's a matter of what you actually build them for. If your picking a Way and a Style that relies heavily on Save. Wisdom is your primary stat. Dexterity can come second and more slowly in incriments that just help you keep hitting things often enough and you can play around that fact with certain styles of play that make up for a bit of lack of dexterity and slightly lower AC more easily than most would expect. If your playing a higher Dex one that doesn't rely as much on the powers with saving throw aspects then it can be ok if you don't get your wisdom quite as high right away.
So you need to be asking yourself. Is the way I'm wanting to play complimentary to the kind of monk that I want to play. For plenty of people they may actually conflict and that will cause problems and feel a bit underwhelming. For others that have matched them well some things may feel a little too easy.
yea because a free +2 ac that costs you nothing is bad...
I don't believe Drunken Master really suffers from anything, or really relies on anything except the skill of the actual player (which is a tautological truth for every class).
It's made to be the slipperiest of all the traditions. All monks ought to be played as a skirmisher--get in, take out or incapacitate a strategic target, get out--and Drunken Master gives a ton of options for those moments when you can't get back out without a little extra something. That's when you Flurry.
Need to keep the attention of a group or especially tough opponent? That's when you use Patient Defense (all Monks), and combo it with Redirect Attack via Tipsy Sway. Make that tough opponent cleave its' own allies to do your work for you.
Have disadvantage on a crucial roll? Nah, you got Drunkard's Luck.
The only thing that I really feel could be improved is how the entirety of Intoxicated Frenzy is at level 17. That is a defining feature of the subclass, and I think it should be handled the same way that Kensei Weapons are: one additional Flurry attack at 6, two at 11, and three at 17. There should be a progression to it, rather than a magnificent surge of minion-sweeping capability at a level that most players will never reach.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It does cost you a lot! You have to give up a weapon attack for an unarmed strike. This is one of the reasons I dislike the Way of the Kensai. Their abilities constantly compete with other things.
You want a magic weapon with + elemental damage so you can deal effective damage? Ok but you’re ki power up only works on nonmagic weapons and you have to give up an attack for your measly unarmed strike if you want the AC.
They should’ve just given you +2 AC period while wielding a melee kensai weapon. It would effectively let you have a free shield which isn’t overpowered due to monks having lower ac to start and other “shield” users can get magic shields for better AC.
Their ability to add unarmed dice to damage should’ve been like a mini smite able to deal more damage the more ki you spend. That or it deals double your unarmed strike damage. As it stands it’s pathetic the amount of damage it adds when you could be doing stunning strike.
Also great breakdown Fateless! I will say the sun soul monk gets bonus points for having an effective ranged option, but I agree shadow monk is the best.
Sounds to me like you really just wanted to play a Samurai (Fighter), not a Kensei (Monk).
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Actually, it feels strange to me that their capstone happens much later than a similar ability to Hunter Rangers have the option to get at 11th level. Or am I agreeing with you? Anyway, it's not all that powerful for a 17th level ability and probably should have been there at 11.
I do believe you are agreeing with me. 😂
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I forgot sunsoul monk but then they are kind of tied up in their gimmick and suffer in a couple ways. Not all of their powers actually mix. Their powers cap out weirdly with the burning hands affect (that can only be used in the place of your bonus attack and blocks you from using flurry and other bonus action class features) actually ends up scaling better and doing more at the cost of potentially ridiculous amounts of Ki in a single attack (almost double what can be spent by even the strongest 4 elements attack). It costs you Ki to use it's ranged gimmick more than once a round and can only be done with your main attacks. The pseudo fireball stops at the base fireball in castable ability and is slightly weaker except doing radiant damage and stops you from doing all of your martial arts for the turn. And it's 17th level ability is far more lackluster than what people are feeling that Drunken Master's is with it's extra flurry of blows attacks on increased number of targets. It only activates on a physical hit (already limiting it's affectiveness by quite a lot) and then it can only manage to do a maximum of 10 damage per hit. The only two things it's really going to start getting significant or fend off are Fighters and other monks because they are the only two that can make significant multiple attacks to make it trigger multiple times. And the cost of that is that it turns you into a glowing magical beacon for all the spell casters and ranged attackers to pelt en-masse with an easily trackable target AND it costs you a bonus action to turn on and off. So any turn you want to start or stop using it. You can't use anything else that would use a bonus action. Such as Flurry of Blows, patient defense, step of the wind, AND your searing arc ability which is arguably one of the biggest attacks that the Sun Soul Monk has if it's willing to spend that ludicrous amount of Ki to make it that powerful.
As for the 17th level ability of the Drunken Master. The problem isn't exactly that it should build up in usefulness. Because reguardless of that. Just how often are you going to be finding yourself in a position where you can even use it to it's full extent unless your deliberately putting yourself in potentially lethal situations to make use of it? You need multiple different opponents to make it work. Which means multiple flank potentials. The possibility of being surrounded and unable to get away, And likely quite a few chances to make effects like Disengage not matter because one of them has something like Sentinel or some other nasty ability that's going to ruin your day. It'd be a little different if all of it's blows could be laid into just one or two targets. And every time you use flurry of blows your going to be spending uses of this power, as well as it's low level power to disengage even if you don't take advantage of what they are giving you. They aren't actually independent abilities and powers of their own.
Nearly every single encounter my Drunken Master has had in CoS, and I'm nowhere near high enough level to have Intoxicated Frenzy yet. Being a one-bird clean-up crew/carpet-bomber is incredibly potent as a skirmisher. "Buzzing the tower" is his go to maneuver.
The Flurry of Blows unarmed strikes from Intoxicated Frenzy have to attack different targets, but not the regular attacks from the Attack action. If you need to hit something twice, pepper it with the regular attack(s) & one of the unarmed strikes.
I do wish the multiple target condition wasn't in there... it does feel overly-restrictive for a capstone ability, but I wouldn't mind at all if there was a progression up to the full power of the current level 17 version.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You can use sharpen the blade with magic weapons. It just can't be a +1,2,3 weapon.
Agile Parry at level 5 when you get extra attack your giving up an average of 2 damage for an increase of 2 to your AC. Seems like a no brainer. (And that's only if your using a d10 weapon.)
Sigred Anything that can have a class, which is actually a surprising amount of things, can have Sentinel.
Also you cannot guarantee everything will be in suitable range for attacking. Specially if you have DM that's splitting up targets or playing enemies with any intelligence at all. There are ways they can spread out or do things to counter movement. There is also not always the chance to end your turn in an unexposed position. Particularly if your trying to chase down enough enemies to use all your hits on every turn.
but none of that shakes the fact that the capstone would still be far more useful if you weren't required to spread out all the flurry hits. At the higher levels tossing in a couple of main hits isn't anything spectacular. It's the culmination of those 7 hits that would be something spectacular and worrisome. So that is why I ignored the main hits. They are not a main feature of that power and while they take place they do not factor into the actual requirements of using it and it modifies flurry in a way that forces you to seek out spread damage which means it's a power that is far more likely to be negated at higher levels because of any number of area healing affects and it still requires action economy that actually in some ways works against it's own optimal use because you have no ability to actually combine it with anything like step of the wind.
And anything that requires your flurry of blows to work is actually action economy heavy so you are set in what you are going to do for that turn. The only way to activate Flurry is to both Spend your Bonus Action and do so AFTER your main action has been used to take the Attack Action so your entire turn is locked into attacking just so you can get a bit of a disengage and if your lucky 3 extra hits. And while the inability to dash is offset somewhat by the natural speed boost that monks get that is rather decent at high level. The fact that you have heavy action requirement and a Ki cost every turn that you are going to use said power and you either have to set yourself in danger to set up enemies or pray that your DM is going to play the enemies as stupid as possible so they set themselves up for optimal attacking is pretty bad for ability.And that's the flaw of anything attached to flurry of blows. Very heavy cost in both action economy and the repeated need to spend Ki per turn in combats that are getting increasingly longer against enemies that require more and more sustained hits the higher you level gets meaning more rounds that you must expend those costs for every turn that you wish to use them.
Open Hand suffers from the same problem in that like Drunken Master a fair bit of it's core features are actually tied into Flurry of blows. To use it in any single turn your turn is dedicated to a particular kind of action and your spending your ki as a resource on top of it. The biggest difference is that Drunken Master tries to mitigate some of the damage though adding in the disengage and Open Hand tries to mitigate some of the pressure on your healers with it's inferior version of Lay on Hands that can only work on oneself. But Open Hand at least has a decent capstone even if it's not actually what it is kind of advertised as(that being of a death punch or 1 hit kill move). It's actually a flaw that I considered applying to Cobalt Soul as well because in some ways it does apply but like I said it's hard to quantify and there are arguments to be made both ways for it. There is also the issue that Cobalt Soul may or may not see edits (that may or may not make it into official publication) as it is played and matt has a chance to fully test and tweak it much like happened with the Gunslinger kit. I believe he's already made a couple of potentially necessary slight alterations to it just since publication.
Prime example of what I mean by not playing intelligently. You don't have to use every tool available to you at all times, and over-extending yourself like this is less effective than using some of your attacks & ending your turn in a more advantageous position. This is skirmisher 101.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
here's the problem with that. if you use flurry. You pay the cost for those maneuvers. Even if you don't use them. If you don't play for Flurry. You can't use them. If you do anything in a turn that takes up your action you cannot use them. It's not just about not using something. There are a lot of restrictions on when you can't use them. I'm aware that moderation can be a good thing for monks. But having them tied to something like Flurry is costly in more ways than just the Ki expenditure that people see on the sheet and it is often ignored. And it is something that has to be kept in mind for those subclasses that rely on it and it can be problematic at times.
First off. Absolutely everything about Sigred's previous post seems to scream: 'This is stupid, don't do it'. Then you posted this which is exactly what he said not to do. It seems kind of silly that this came after his previous post. I don't need to get into that, though, Sigred already pointed this out, and you already made a new counter argument so I will get to that.
Honestly it doesn't matter if you pay the cost of something that can't be used to it's fullest, as long as you get use out of it, it still gives something. And they don't balance everything based off getting maximum value. If this ability allowed 3 extra strikes to the main target, and then the monk could hit every target he comes within 5 feet of during his turn you could make the same argument: You paid for potentially hundreds of strikes against hundreds of foes, but there weren't hundreds of foes to strike so you lost didn't get the full value of what you paid for. This is like complaining that fireball didn't get its full value because it didn't hit 10 enemies, does that mean it didn't get value worth its cost? no, I'm sure you knew how many it would hit when you cast it, yet you still cast it. There are certainly restrictions on when you can get value out of intoxicated frenzy, but that isn't the issue, the issue is whether you get enough value out of it to justify it being a level 17 feature. Personally, I feel the answer is no.
That said, I don't believe anybody has pointed out what intoxicated frenzy is really meant for. Adding 10.5 average damage (not considering the attacks have to hit) to 3 more creatures in a round, while forcing the monk to spread his damage thin would constitute for a very pathetic for a level 17 feature (though there are other high level features that I would consider to be just as pathetic). The purpose of intoxicated frenzy is entirely to spread the stun far, I know, costly, but it is pretty much the only way you get any real value out of the feature. With just 3 targets you go from 4 strikes to 5, 2 chances per enemy to stun 2 enemies, 1 chance to stun another. This means if your aim is to stun a high number of enemies you get at least some value with just 3 targets. Enough to justify a level 17 feature? Again, I say no. Maybe when you consider hitting 4 creatures it could have the value you needed. Heads up though, hasted level 17 wizard can dash, run 55 ft, drop a wished symbol that activates on condition that he gets 60 ft away (a DM may rule that the activation requirement has to be something within the 10 ft range of the symbol; if they rule this, make the condition your voice speaking a certain word, the sound will reach the symbol) Run 65 ft out causing the symbol to activate, and create a 60 ft zone that targets either charisma, intelligence, constitution, or wisdom (wizards choice). Anything caught in the zone that fails the save would have a hard cc effect that they can't make a second save for until a full minute has passed. A drunken master's ability to AoE crowd control pales in comparison.
This point I already addressed so I am just reiterating it. Intoxicated frenzy isn't meant for adding more damage, it is meant for stunning more creatures, that will cost a lot so you won't utilize it more than a turn or 2. Won't need to chase things down to use it every turn.
Again addressed that there is at least some value in the feature when hitting 3 creatures. With 70 ft movement (drunken technique included) you will certainly find opportunities, maybe not in every encounter though. You don't need to worry about using the feature every encounter either.
If the goal is to stun: sentinels can't make an opportunity attack when stunned, and you have a decent AC anyway. If you suspect sentinel don't move to a place where you are within 5 ft of 2 creatures if you can handle it, move to attack and stun 1, then move again to attack and stun the other. Sometimes they will get you though, and put an end to your plan.
I really wanted to get at this. The monk is a lot more durable than you seem to think, especially at lvl 18, 1 level higher than you get the feature being discussed. He has evasion, decent AC, very high saves (which he can reroll with a ki point), a bunch of the guys around him are likely stunned, if he used 4 ki for empty body he is invisible and has resistance to all damages except force for 1 minute. This likely gives enemies disadvantage if they do attack him.
On to the last thing I want to point out: the cost of using intoxicated fury for stunning. If there are 4 enemies, make 6 attacks, 7 ki is used total, 11 if you wanted advantage all your attacks and the added protection from empty body. the monk will have 17+ ki. If you are expecting the monk to be a 1 man army, this is NOT how you want use your ki. your ki will be spent in 2 to 2 and a half turns. Nothing will be dead and you will be drained. But if that is how you play you aren't playing DnD right (unless it is a 1 man campaign). But! Using this 7 ki at the beginning of a battle to stun 3 or 4 enemies with a team to dish out damage is actually extremely effective for action economy. Ever see a meteor swarm hit 4 incapacitated foes who auto-fail their dex save? You will deal 10.5-21 avg damage to the enemies, your mage will deal 140 avg damage, you will get another turn to deal 10.5-21 damage per enemy (on advantage with attacks again (enemies are incapacitated and if not you are invisible) (you don't need to use stunning fist this time, just the 1 ki flurry, they are probably at deaths gate, stun a healer or more threatening enemy if you need to). Depending on who gets a turn soonest after you, the mage may get a second shot before the enemies get their turn, if not the mage may have had a second shot the turn before you stunned the enemies. So, 2 mage turns, 2 monk turns, other party members get 2 turns too. All before they can take an action
The earlier you stunt the enemies action economy the better your action economy is for the fight. If you started with stunning 4 enemies that died before they got a turn, because they couldn't make dex saves on a meteor swarm and all lost their first turn to stun, you probably won the fight. If not everything was stunned, taking half damage from all but force damage while enemy attacks have disadvantage against you, also having evasion and great saves, makes you a decent tank.
Do I think intoxicated frenzy is a good level 17 feature? No, but it can still turn a situation around with the extra chances to stun multiple enemies. It is one of the (seemingly few) unnoticed things that look worse to people on paper than it does in practice within a party. If you wan't a feature that makes you feel powerful when alone though, this feature certainly isn't one of them.
Whenever I think of the monk's class I feel like this skill is missing ...
it would solve half the problems that the monk has .... The role of the monk in my opinion should be like that of the rogue, hitting and Disengage (if not way they given him only d8 hit points?), the difference of the rogue who makes a powerful attack, the monk makes many but weak (even if he will never be able to equalize the damage of the sneak att., 10d6+5 ≠ 3d10+15). The only way to do damage is to use the stun attack to gain advantage and use the feat Great Weapon Master (hoping you hit) the problem is that the monk is one of the classes that receives the least Ability Score Improvement ... so it's hard to focus on dexterity, wisdom and constitution if you also need to take feats...
These would be other abilities that could help the monk have his own fighting style:
Monks are strange characters. They are not OP, and also do not fit neatly into any tactical roll.
They are a strange mix of abilities. Sometimes this means they disrupt the attack strategy (what, you expect me to fall to my death? Slowly?) A bit of controller, a bit of damage, some skills. This makes them very hard to min-max (not a bad thing) and almost never overpowered.
So basically, Monks are good, but not OP.
If your DM wants to start a campaign where you have no equipment at all then the Monk (and the Sorcerer) allow you to manage without equipment for a while, though that'd be a pretty brutal way to open.
As well explained before the monk unfortunately was created without a specific role in the group. .. manages to do a little everything but so-so ... making the monk uninteresting.
I know I shouldn't put this info in this chat, but if anyone is interested, I created a Monk subclass with a role of Battlefield control... I think it is the role that suits him best.
Way of the Pressure Points
The way of the Pressure Points is a secretive martial arts handed down from father to son. Based on 4'000 years of knowledge in combat and in the medical research. This martial art is defined mythical not for its killer power but for its adaptability to any enemy. Each new generation of this martial art, after receiving training, travels around the world to test themselves with the most talented fighters and the most fearsome monsters. Each generation aims to improve its style for the next generation by adapting it to the combat of its time. (For this subclass you must have the medicine skill)
Meridian Points
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, with your knowledge in the field of medicine you know of the beneficial and destructive points of the body, your actions can save the life of your friends and yours attacks can be more precise and more painful for your enemy.
With a bonus action you can heal a creature next to you, the creature regains hit points equal to your medicine skill + one martial die, but since the energy for healing is extracted directly from the patient, this also takes 3 level of exhaustion. Finishing a short rest can reduces this kind of exhaustion by 1 and a long rest end this condition. You can only use this ability a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), after a long rest you can use it again. At 6th level the exhaustion is reduces at 2, at 11th at 1 and at 17th at 0.
Shura Techniques
With your control of the hidden meridian points at 6th level, you can manipulate your enemy’s ki when you harness your own. Choose one of the following options and whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, with the use of another ki you can impose one of the following effects choose on the target. At 11th, 17th and at 20th level you can choose another one of the Shura techniques.
Shura Ki
Beginning at 11th level, your control over ki power improves, you are able to attack more quickly and you are able to absorb ki from your opponents during the fight.
Quivering Palm (you can modify your final attack under the approval of your DM)
At 17th level, you gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 3 ki points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. If it fails, it is reduced to 0 hit points. If it succeeds, it takes 10d10 necrotic damage.
You can have only one creature under the effect of this feature at a time. You can choose to end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.
I can see the monk as a battlefield controller. Just base it on wire-fu (The over the top fighting done in asian karate movies which is obviously done by using wires to make it look like they are jumping/running on air/being hit and flying back).