While your MC options seem interesting I will disagree with this point. Monks are one of the worst MC pairs as they rely so much on ki points which are based on monk levels.
I actually think they are one of the worst MC classes due to this.
That being said its not impossible and I love 1 level rogue dips on most martial classes to get that sweet sweet expertise.
Monk (and most martials in general) just suffer in the MC realm as you would want to wait until after level 5 to MC as delaying extra attack is a huge mistake IMO. And monk gets their second subclass feature at level 6th so its hard to delay that for three more levels to dip two into rogue/ranger.
Overall they suffer more than your average martial as their damage output is low already and missing out on extra attack will therefore hurt them even more. However, if you are not worried about damage numbers you could dip and do fine but you will have a while to catch up in the combat realm.
While your MC options seem interesting I will disagree with this point. Monks are one of the worst MC pairs as they rely so much on ki points which are based on monk levels.
I actually think they are one of the worst MC classes due to this.
That being said its not impossible and I love 1 level rogue dips on most martial classes to get that sweet sweet expertise.
Monk (and most martials in general) just suffer in the MC realm as you would want to wait until after level 5 to MC as delaying extra attack is a huge mistake IMO. And monk gets their second subclass feature at level 6th so its hard to delay that for three more levels to dip two into rogue/ranger.
Overall they suffer more than your average martial as their damage output is low already and missing out on extra attack will therefore hurt them even more. However, if you are not worried about damage numbers you could dip and do fine but you will have a while to catch up in the combat realm.
I think this depends on what you want from your character. The way that many people (at least on these forums) play, this is generally spot on. I do think that there are exceptions to this rule and I think that rogue is one of those exceptions. Sneak attack can help offset the delay of extra attack, particularly if you aren't going with the spear or quarterstaff with their versatile damage. 1 level of rogue does delay ki points, but the second level does potentially free up ki points, even while delaying them another level. If you are going 5 or 6 into monk and then rogue this is minimal. Going further in monk becomes more problematic, but not overwhelmingly so. You probably shouldn't go just 3 in rogue, opting for either 2 or 4 instead because of the reliance on ASIs. The exception is if you are spacing your rogue levels throughout the leveling process. Still, going more than 2 levels in anything will be a big change in the way that the monk plays and should be considered carefully.
Monks are one of the worst MC pairs as they rely so much on ki points which are based on monk levels. Monk (and most martials in general) just suffer in the MC realm as you would want to wait until after level 5 to MC as delaying extra attack is a huge mistake IMO.
I think this depends a lot on what exactly you're using the Monk for, how it fits into your group and campaign etc.
Monks have a built in bonus action attack, so pushing back extra attack a level or two isn't actually a huge deal, the 6th level sub-class abilities are more important, but again it depends on the exact split and build you're going for. For example, on my Kensei Monk/War Cleric split I'm not too bothered about getting Deft Strike and Kensei Shot a little later as War Domain gives me Divine Favor for extra damage, and I can use War Priest to fire my longbow as a bonus action for the times when I switch to it. There will absolutely be cases where the trade-offs are harder, but that's specific sub-class combos, and true of a lot of multi-classes.
As for Ki points, that's just the reality of multi-classing; every level taken in one class is a level not gained in another. The key question is what you get instead of that 1 Ki point, and how well it fits your character. For example, again on my current character I'm not so inconvenienced by a loss of 1 Ki point when I gain three cantrips, six spells and two spell slots plus War Priest.
It depends a lot on the exact split you're going for and when; some options will inconvenience you more at lower levels then get stronger later, while others can give you immediate benefits well worth any delayed abilities. This is where Ranger for example is a bit trickier since the 1st level bonuses are very campaign dependent (though Tasha's Cauldron offers an alternative Favoured Foe that would stack well enough onto a Monk), but it's the 2nd and 3rd level you really want, so might be a tougher option early on.
However if you don't multi-class until level 7 then none of these things are really problems; six Ki isn't a huge number but it's a workable amount, and you can always alternate levels in each class depending on what exactly you want and when.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Monks are one of the worst MC pairs as they rely so much on ki points which are based on monk levels. Monk (and most martials in general) just suffer in the MC realm as you would want to wait until after level 5 to MC as delaying extra attack is a huge mistake IMO.
I think this depends a lot on what exactly you're using the Monk for, how it fits into your group and campaign etc.
Monks have a built in bonus action attack, so pushing back extra attack a level or two isn't actually a huge deal, the 6th level sub-class abilities are more important, but again it depends on the exact split and build you're going for. For example, on my Kensei Monk/War Cleric split I'm not too bothered about getting Deft Strike and Kensei Shot a little later as War Domain gives me Divine Favor for extra damage, and I can use War Priest to fire my longbow as a bonus action for the times when I switch to it. There will absolutely be cases where the trade-offs are harder, but that's specific sub-class combos, and true of a lot of multi-classes.
As for Ki points, that's just the reality of multi-classing; every level taken in one class is a level not gained in another. The key question is what you get instead of that 1 Ki point, and how well it fits your character. For example, again on my current character I'm not so inconvenienced by a loss of 1 Ki point when I gain three cantrips, six spells and two spell slots plus War Priest.
It depends a lot on the exact split you're going for and when; some options will inconvenience you more at lower levels then get stronger later, while others can give you immediate benefits well worth any delayed abilities. This is where Ranger for example is a bit trickier since the 1st level bonuses are very campaign dependent (though Tasha's Cauldron offers an alternative Favoured Foe that would stack well enough onto a Monk), but it's the 2nd and 3rd level you really want, so might be a tougher option early on.
However if you don't multi-class until level 7 then none of these things are really problems; six Ki isn't a huge number but it's a workable amount, and you can always alternate levels in each class depending on what exactly you want and when.
Yeah if you focusing primarily on utility (such as expertise or spellcasting) then you will not likely notice the drop in damage as that was not the focus.
However the drop from not getting extra attack will be greatly noticeable especially with other martials if you want to maintain combat effectiveness. The extra BA attack also scales with monk level so your damage will not get any better and your chances to increase damage will be limited by the number of attacks you can make.
Divine Favor, Hunters mark, and the like will be overtly better with more attacks. So while they help offset the damage...they will not keep up with simply going more monk levels.
That being said as you stated depending on your campaign you might not notice or even care if your out of combat utility is greatly improved and you spend a low amount of time in combat.
However as I stated before honesty is important to me and damage will be greatly affected by these choices so its fair to mention that if you do MC you will have to ensure the benefits outweigh the costs for you as a player. Having a true interpretation of what to expect is the best way to make this decision.
Monks are one of the worst MC pairs as they rely so much on ki points which are based on monk levels. Monk (and most martials in general) just suffer in the MC realm as you would want to wait until after level 5 to MC as delaying extra attack is a huge mistake IMO.
I think this depends a lot on what exactly you're using the Monk for, how it fits into your group and campaign etc.
Monks have a built in bonus action attack, so pushing back extra attack a level or two isn't actually a huge deal, the 6th level sub-class abilities are more important, but again it depends on the exact split and build you're going for. For example, on my Kensei Monk/War Cleric split I'm not too bothered about getting Deft Strike and Kensei Shot a little later as War Domain gives me Divine Favor for extra damage, and I can use War Priest to fire my longbow as a bonus action for the times when I switch to it. There will absolutely be cases where the trade-offs are harder, but that's specific sub-class combos, and true of a lot of multi-classes.
As for Ki points, that's just the reality of multi-classing; every level taken in one class is a level not gained in another. The key question is what you get instead of that 1 Ki point, and how well it fits your character. For example, again on my current character I'm not so inconvenienced by a loss of 1 Ki point when I gain three cantrips, six spells and two spell slots plus War Priest.
It depends a lot on the exact split you're going for and when; some options will inconvenience you more at lower levels then get stronger later, while others can give you immediate benefits well worth any delayed abilities. This is where Ranger for example is a bit trickier since the 1st level bonuses are very campaign dependent (though Tasha's Cauldron offers an alternative Favoured Foe that would stack well enough onto a Monk), but it's the 2nd and 3rd level you really want, so might be a tougher option early on.
However if you don't multi-class until level 7 then none of these things are really problems; six Ki isn't a huge number but it's a workable amount, and you can always alternate levels in each class depending on what exactly you want and when.
Yeah if you focusing primarily on utility (such as expertise or spellcasting) then you will not likely notice the drop in damage as that was not the focus.
However the drop from not getting extra attack will be greatly noticeable especially with other martials if you want to maintain combat effectiveness. The extra BA attack also scales with monk level so your damage will not get any better and your chances to increase damage will be limited by the number of attacks you can make.
Divine Favor, Hunters mark, and the like will be overtly better with more attacks. So while they help offset the damage...they will not keep up with simply going more monk levels.
That being said as you stated depending on your campaign you might not notice or even care if your out of combat utility is greatly improved and you spend a low amount of time in combat.
However as I stated before honesty is important to me and damage will be greatly affected by these choices so its fair to mention that if you do MC you will have to ensure the benefits outweigh the costs for you as a player. Having a true interpretation of what to expect is the best way to make this decision.
As others have said, it depends on how many levels you put into it and what you're hoping to get out of it. The name of the game, as it were, is Opportunity Cost. An extra 2d6 from Sneak Attack isn't terrible; even at the cost of Extra Attack. The bonus action unarmed strike is no worse than the bonus action granted via Polearm Master, barring the possible lack of reach, and the monk can't benefit from those reach weapons anyway.
One of the possible goals of multiclassing is to excel in one thing; even at the expense of other things. That's why a Paladin 2/Sorcerer X is so popular: they get Boo Koo spell slots for Divine Smite. Circle of the Moon, with just one monk level, gets to add their Wisdom to AC when using Wild Shape. Assassin and Way of the Shadow is a popular multiclass build, as well. A half-elf Scout rogue/College of Lore bard could have 14 skill proficiencies by 6th level.
Multiclassing isn't something to be undertaken lightly. And none of this means the monk is bad at multiclassing. It just isn't good for what you want out of the deal; what you value most as a player. And that's okay. We all like different things. But just because we have one favorite flavor at Baskin Robbin's doesn't mean we should be knocking the other 30.
While your MC options seem interesting I will disagree with this point. Monks are one of the worst MC pairs as they rely so much on ki points which are based on monk levels.
I actually think they are one of the worst MC classes due to this.
That being said its not impossible and I love 1 level rogue dips on most martial classes to get that sweet sweet expertise.
Monk (and most martials in general) just suffer in the MC realm as you would want to wait until after level 5 to MC as delaying extra attack is a huge mistake IMO. And monk gets their second subclass feature at level 6th so its hard to delay that for three more levels to dip two into rogue/ranger.
Overall they suffer more than your average martial as their damage output is low already and missing out on extra attack will therefore hurt them even more. However, if you are not worried about damage numbers you could dip and do fine but you will have a while to catch up in the combat realm.
I think Monks can make interesting multiclass rangers, barbarians, fighters, or rogues (mechanically speaking). No martial should be multiclassing before 5 and that's fine. When you get a power spike that big, that's to be expected. You don't want to miss out or delay the power spike. After 5, it depends on what you're after and what the level 6 ability is. If you're a shadow monk and are subclassing in rogue, it's totally worth it to grab 6 for shadow step. If you're going barbarian with your drunken master, you don't need tipsy sway.
Ranger is a good subclass for rogue because of hunter's mark and both are dex/wisdom. Round one against a BBG you hit them with hunters mark, and from there on you're adding 4d6 to your turn. Gloomstalker would be great with a shadow monk. Dread Ambusher and Umbral Sight both fit very well. I don't really like any of the other subclasses because of how much bonus action economy issues arise. Dipping ranger just for 2 levels is fine though too.
I like Barbarian because how well rage fits with the high number of attacks the monk gets. Rage and attack twice, then on the rest of your turns add the rage damage to up to 4 attacks. That's a pretty good bump to damage. It obviously fits best with a strength monk who mostly focuses on strength, dex, and con so that reckless attack is a good move. Going bear totem with any monk is great, although thematically drunken master is probably the most fun.
Fighters make a good multiclass with any class, monks included. Action surge and a fighting style is worth it for anyone. Monks also benefit from champion, samurai, battle master, and probably other subclasses.
Rogue is always a good choice for monks, especially shadow monks with their ability to get advantage by teleporting between shadows. 6 monk / rogue X is a great multiclass option. You still get your 3-4 attacks, and you also get sneak attack, cunning action, a subclass, uncanny dodge, and whatever else depending on how high you take rogue.
I agree that ki is important to monks but it might be worth the trade offs to sacrifice some ki points to get other good abilities. There are plenty of good abilities from other classes that can augment the monk's kit and make for a very fun character.
Yeah agree on the martials should not MC until after 5 thoughts...Especially for newer players. It just very hard to justify the opportunity cost of that extra attack.
Paladin 2/Sorcerer X Is stated but that is generally seen as powerful because of one thing: Quicken Spell. This allows you to cast Booming Blade twice in a turn which simulates the Extra Attack of the paladin at 5th level.
This is a good example of the benefit (More powerful and more frequent smites along with the opportunity to still attack twice) is nice and clearly offset due to information on what works well.
The ice cream example is actually a good one...I am not saying that Monk's Moose Trax is a bad ice cream...In fact I say a lot of people like it! I am more giving people the warning it contains nuts...which some people do not like or cannot tolerate. Good honest information is key to helping people make good informed decisions.
So I fully agree that the players who want utility over damage should MC as soon as they want. No real reason to NOT pick up those cleric levels if that is what is fun to you. However, you should know that your damage will be much worse than if you choose to do it before level 5.
Its not knocking either its saying: "Monks and other martials have a higher opportunity cost to MC before 5th level...make sure that is what you want!"
Monks just suffer more than others due to the fact Ki is used for everything in their kit and it keys off monk levels. Not knocking the MC here simply saying you will have an even higher opportunity cost for not picking up Monk levels when it comes to doing Monk stuff. I don't care about monk stuff the decision becomes easier but by pointing this out people can make an informed decision.
This is why I hate when people only praise something and never offer constructive feedback. I am not saying you all are doing this but rather just making a point: Without honest criticism people will find out by themselves anyway and it breeds disappointment. Its even worse if they come into a space with others and their view point is summary dismissed without proper discourse.
This, more often than not, is what happens with monk. People come in to take an extreme on either side and not honestly discuss the pros/cons of the class. They instead focus only on the positive or negative aspects and fight over who is "right".
the drop from not getting extra attack will be greatly noticeable especially with other martials if you want to maintain combat effectiveness. The extra BA attack also scales with monk level so your damage will not get any better and your chances to increase damage will be limited by the number of attacks you can make.
Sure, I'm not disputing any of that, but it's highly dependent on when you multi-class whether it's an issue or not. If you wait until level 6 or 7 then you've already got the extra attack, but even if you multi-class earlier there are plenty of multi-classing options that come with extra damage so while you'll have fewer attacks, you won't necessarily be doing losing damage overall. You also may only be pushing it back a single level; again, not saying it's not a legitimate consideration, but by the same token it shouldn't be blown out of proportion either, especially when a Monk has other ways to do extra attacks if extra attacks specifically are what you need (for breaking concentration, dealing with a miss or such).
Ki progression is a legitimate issue, and another reason why you probably don't want to multi-class too soon, but five or six is a workable amount, and depending on the multi-class you may be gaining other resources that compensate for lost Ki (or even let you do similar things in other ways). My Kensei/War Domain character is only level 4 with a single level dip in War Domain and while three Ki is tricky, one extra isn't world shattering, and I've got two spell slots instead.
When it comes to Monk progression in multi-classing I think it's best to think of a Monk as a bit like a mix between a fighter, rogue and a caster; when you multi-class in fighter you can delay attacks, when you multi-class in rogue you can limit your damage progression, and when you multi-class as a caster you can limit your spell-casting resource(s). The easiest multi-classes in raw combat terms are the ones that give you a replacement for at least one of these things, some mixture of two or more, or else something unique you absolutely can't do without for your character.
Divine Favor, Hunters mark, and the like will be overtly better with more attacks. So while they help offset the damage...they will not keep up with simply going more monk levels.
I already sort of mentioned this, but I feel like maybe you're looking at these from the wrong perspective. Firstly, if you take these after extra attack then you're losing nothing, and gaining damage on your full number of attacks. Even so, if you take it before extra attack, the extra damage minimises that "loss", plus it isn't the only benefit you're getting, and when you do add extra attack you end up with more damage overall. So at worst it's a small loss for a bigger later gain.
Divine Favor from War Domain and Hex from Warlock both require only a single level dip, and come with other benefits (features, spells, cantrips etc.) so even if you delay extra attack it's hard to rate that as a loss overall. Ranger is the trickier one since the 1st level doesn't give you much as a Monk unless your campaign features a lot of exploration; Tasha's Cauldron will help with that a bit though, the 2nd level is comparable to a single level dip in Cleric/Warlock but it's the 3rd level where it really starts to shine, so it's one you definitely want to plan for.
Multi-classing is always a balancing act; the same is true with the other martial classes, as no matter what you do you're delaying or putting a ceiling on something. That's not a unique issue to Monks, as any martial class that multi-classes will either delay Extra Attack or want to wait, so I'm not sure why you'd rank Monks as worst? They face the same basic challenges with multi-classing, and there are a lot of really good DEX and/or WIS classes to dip into that they mesh really well with.
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Ah ok seems we are on the same page then. Mostly if you MC after 5th level you should be good to go as a martial. Or you get to start above 5th level of course. Monks rank the lowest for me for MC for the following:
Single resource pool for all class/subclass items
Ki is used for so much on their tool kit that delaying adding ki directly inhibits their base class uses.
This is less a problem on the other martials as they have less to gain from 6th level to 8th level where you will be delaying
Fighter- you miss an ASI...this is probably the next biggest opportunity cost and I would actually say do not MC out of fighter until after 6th
Rogue- you miss another expertise and evasion- both of these hurt quite a bit but you can still do all your base class material quite well and depending on what you pick up you could offset these easier with other class options (Shield for wizard MC/Riposte for fighter MC/Etc....). These help the base rogue kit a lot compared to the monk kit IMO
Barbarian- you lose your path feature (depends on the path but these are mostly ribbons), feral instinct (Pretty good but getting a fighting style, cunning action, etc will be about equivalent)
Monks are more MAD than other martials
Rogue- just dexterity needed. some subclasses like other stats but mostly you dont need much beyond dexterity to make rogue work
Fighter- Dex fighters are the single most single attribute dependant class in the game. STR fighters mostly just need STR and CON. But everyone needs CON so nobody needs CON.
Barbarian. MAD to some degree but with 14 Dex you can wear medium armor and be completely fine. You can even use a shield to be more tanky.
Monk die progression/magic fists
you need to take monk levels to get your monk die up and get magic fists which becomes more and more needed as you go on. Not the biggest issue but still pretty important.
Now none of these things are dealbreakers for MC but add up to be a higher cost than the others to some degree. Mostly because ki is hard to replace with other class features. It for sure can be done but the cost is pretty high.
Ki is used for so much on their tool kit that delaying adding ki directly inhibits their base class uses.
This is less a problem on the other martials as they have less to gain from 6th level to 8th level where you will be delaying
Sure, I'm not saying having less Ki is meaningless, though you really have to put yourself pretty far back before it becomes a major issue. Having one or two fewer Ki points than a pure Monk isn't really much of an inconvenience, as the Ki points themselves never scale in value. If you compare to a spellcaster for example, where a delay in spell slot progression also means later access to higher level slots (and thus better spells in most cases) then the trade off in Ki isn't really a big deal.
If you're only taking a 1-4 level multi-class then you're still topping out at 16-19 Ki points, or a 5-20% loss, but you'll most likely be replacing them something that fulfils similar functions; spell slots, action uses, etc. as well as associated effects. If you get Rage from Barbarian, then you don't need to spend Ki on Patient Defence, a couple levels in Rogue effectively makes Step of the Wind free, two levels in Fighter gives you Action Surge which is better than a Flurry of Blows (or can be stacked on top of it) and so-on.
Monks are more MAD than other martials
Sure, but none of the multi-class options I've listed are affected by this; a Monk should usually have good Dexterity and Wisdom, so any Wisdom based caster should already be perfectly compatible, as are any Dexterity friendly martial classes.
The trickiest class is Paladin as it needs both Strength and Charisma, but it's also a class that doesn't mesh super well with Monk anyway. For others such as Artificer & Wizard (Intelligence), Barbarian (Strength), and Bard, Sorcerer & Warlock (Charisma), getting a 13 in one stat isn't super hard unless you're using standard array, and for most of these there are other options; Cleric and Druid both give you a lot spell-casting if that's your goal for example.
Monk die progression/magic fists
You only lose full access to the top martial arts die if you take a full four levels in another class (which you may if you want to keep all ASIs), but the loss of a jump from d8 to d10 isn't exactly a huge loss; while it's the only jump that can boost your typically d8 Monk weapon attacks, a loss of 2 damage per round on average is unlikely to ruin your day (and fairly easily compensated for). As for the damage die on unarmed strikes, for most Monks this only makes a difference to their bonus action attacks (Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows) which Monks won't always be using anyway, and when they do often the focus is on quantity of attacks rather than raw damage. Even on sub-classes that use the Martial Arts die more (unarmed, Sun Soul, Open Palm, maybe Drunken Master) it's not a lot of lost damage.
I'd say a Rogue suffers more with damage progression by multi-classing as it only takes two levels to lose a step on Sneak Attack progression, and it's more damage lost on average (depending how often that Rogue can trigger Sneak Attack per turn, a Swashbuckler for example can trigger it nearly every turn, as well as potentially twice per round). A Monk for example could go up to a multi-class of 7 levels having lost only one step on their Martial Arts die, while a Rogue will lose three steps on Sneak Attack.
I just don't really see that any or even all of these things together hurt Monks all that much when multi-classing; what you can gain from a 1 to 4 level dip will surpass the losses in most cases, either by directly replacing them in some way (bonus damage, swap a point of Ki for spells etc.) or with something that adds to what you can do (non-combat bonuses usually, though these are hard to compare in value). You probably don't want to go too heavy on multi-classing (same as a caster multi-classing as a non-caster) but it works well IMO.
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The trickiest class is Paladin as it needs both Strength and Charisma, but it's also a class that doesn't mesh super well with Monk anyway.
Paladins don't need Str any more than melee Fighters do. In other words, if they want to be Dex-based melee warrior, they just need enough Str to cover not being encumbered.
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MADness of monks is more about delaying the ASI progression with MC. Losing a +1 to DEX or WIS is much more impactful on a monk as they need both for the full kit.
Ki loss is dependent on campaign I will give you that. You may not notice if you do the 2 SR per day but having more Nova focused days (1-2 encounters) may or may not hurt more depending on the length of the fights.
Also it seems you assume a full 1-20 progression which I usually don't account for as data suggests 99% of campaigns end before level 12. However, assuming a full 1-20 progression I would agree the dip has less impact.
Overall its not a deal breaker but I do think they feel it a bit more than others even if its only a small stretch (6th through 9th)
The trickiest class is Paladin as it needs both Strength and Charisma, but it's also a class that doesn't mesh super well with Monk anyway.
Paladins don't need Str any more than melee Fighters do. In other words, if they want to be Dex-based melee warrior, they just need enough Str to cover not being encumbered.
Depending on how strictly the DM holds to the rules technically you need a 13 in STR and in CHA to multiclass into or out of paladin.
The trickiest class is Paladin as it needs both Strength and Charisma, but it's also a class that doesn't mesh super well with Monk anyway.
Paladins don't need Str any more than melee Fighters do. In other words, if they want to be Dex-based melee warrior, they just need enough Str to cover not being encumbered.
Strength is required for multiclassing Paladins, which is what the conversation was about- a MC of Monk and Paladin would require a 13 in Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and Charisma. Probably at least that much for Constitution. Might as well throw Intelligence on the block and go Abserd at that point.
If I were to rank all the classes from best to worse, Monks would be in the bottom half. However, if I were to give them a grade in terms of the mechanics (assuming the player doesn't take a bad subclass), I would probably give it a rating of B. It's a very good and fun class. If you're looking to put up the most damage in a round, pick a barbarian and take GWM. Monks aren't for you. If you're looking to have interesting and effective options in combat but still want to play a martial class, monk is a very good and fun option.
I've come into this late (work before DnD), but this one stands out for me in the morass that has become this thread.
I'm also playing a Shadow Hand Monk (Lvl 8), playing all the way from Lvl 1. I'm playing a monk for the first time, and my experience is that while the damage output hasn't increased in line with the others in our party (Barbarian, Rangers etc) I've still had fun - I've learnt to involve my character in different ways rather than through combat.
It's both frustrating and satisfying at the same time. It's really stretched my play, having to interact differently in the game.
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Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
I've come into this late (work before DnD), but this one stands out for me in the morass that has become this thread.
I'm also playing a Shadow Hand Monk (Lvl 8), playing all the way from Lvl 1. I'm playing a monk for the first time, and my experience is that while the damage output hasn't increased in line with the others in our party (Barbarian, Rangers etc) I've still had fun - I've learnt to involve my character in different ways rather than through combat.
It's both frustrating and satisfying at the same time. It's really stretched my play, having to interact differently in the game.
Competing with the Ranger for damage output is probably a mistake, as they'll do the same weapon damage as you, plus a Fighting Style, plus probably Hunter's Mark and maybe other abilities if a Hunter/Monster Hunter etc. They're generally very good at stacking continuous damage, but that's kind of their thing after scouting/exploration.
But for a Barbarian while you'll be a bit behind on damage per hit, you have the option of doing more attacks if you want to; one as a bonus action at no Ki cost, or Flurry of Blows for one Ki. While unarmed strikes do less damage, it's not a lot less, and still gets your full Dexterity bonus on every one, which adds up quite nicely, plus as a general rule more attacks are valuable as it means you're less vulnerable to missing. You also should factor in things like Stunning Strike; the extra damage your allies do by not missing, and avoid by not being attacked, is your damage, not theirs (feel free to always remind them of that fact 😉).
Overall though you shouldn't really expect to do the same or more damage as other martials, as it's not the amount of damage that you do that's important, but who you deal it to; for a Way of Shadow Monk in particular, mobility is key, don't bother with chaff unless your allies are getting overwhelmed or there's nothing else left. Your targets should be things you can stun or otherwise distract, casters and ranged enemies being especially choice targets, either that or weakened enemies that your allies didn't take out but which you can finish off. One of the best uses for Flurry of Blows IMO is when there are several enemies you think you can finish off, as four attacks should get two or three fairly reliably, which again means less damage being dealt to the party.
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Yeah, that;s the way I'm playing it - it's been good with the evasion this round - saved on a few dex saves so avoided some damage there, and using patient defence I've also saved some damage, so overall I think it evens out.
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Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
Yeah monk will fall behind on total damage but they do damage to the target they want to regardless of where they are due to mobility.
Stun Spam will shut down something if you really need it to which can be encounter defining.
They are very viable in combat but are not the top damage dealer...they get the damage where it needs to go.
Any examples of this? It seems like there are ranged options that make mobility moot, or that any melee character can be in range to deliver damage after the first round.
Yeah monk will fall behind on total damage but they do damage to the target they want to regardless of where they are due to mobility.
Stun Spam will shut down something if you really need it to which can be encounter defining.
They are very viable in combat but are not the top damage dealer...they get the damage where it needs to go.
Any examples of this? It seems like there are ranged options that make mobility moot, or that any melee character can be in range to deliver damage after the first round.
Mostly it boils down to movement speed and being able to avoid attacks on the way.
Monks have the best base movement and can run up walls at level 9 so they can simply avoid a lot of stuff in the way.
Rogue can too but they are more dependant on others being there as well to invoke their damage with sneak attack. They are still second when it comes to getting damage were it needs to be as a melee build.
As for ranged vs. melee I 100% agree 5e makes ranged just simply better 99% of the time.
Dex being so good overall, archery fighting style, sharpshooter, etc...
These all make melee builds really hard to justify for damage builds...as ranged will match about 95% of the damage of melee but you can be very far away.
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"Monks in general can multi-class really well:"
While your MC options seem interesting I will disagree with this point. Monks are one of the worst MC pairs as they rely so much on ki points which are based on monk levels.
I actually think they are one of the worst MC classes due to this.
That being said its not impossible and I love 1 level rogue dips on most martial classes to get that sweet sweet expertise.
Monk (and most martials in general) just suffer in the MC realm as you would want to wait until after level 5 to MC as delaying extra attack is a huge mistake IMO. And monk gets their second subclass feature at level 6th so its hard to delay that for three more levels to dip two into rogue/ranger.
Overall they suffer more than your average martial as their damage output is low already and missing out on extra attack will therefore hurt them even more. However, if you are not worried about damage numbers you could dip and do fine but you will have a while to catch up in the combat realm.
I think this depends on what you want from your character. The way that many people (at least on these forums) play, this is generally spot on. I do think that there are exceptions to this rule and I think that rogue is one of those exceptions. Sneak attack can help offset the delay of extra attack, particularly if you aren't going with the spear or quarterstaff with their versatile damage. 1 level of rogue does delay ki points, but the second level does potentially free up ki points, even while delaying them another level. If you are going 5 or 6 into monk and then rogue this is minimal. Going further in monk becomes more problematic, but not overwhelmingly so. You probably shouldn't go just 3 in rogue, opting for either 2 or 4 instead because of the reliance on ASIs. The exception is if you are spacing your rogue levels throughout the leveling process. Still, going more than 2 levels in anything will be a big change in the way that the monk plays and should be considered carefully.
I think this depends a lot on what exactly you're using the Monk for, how it fits into your group and campaign etc.
Monks have a built in bonus action attack, so pushing back extra attack a level or two isn't actually a huge deal, the 6th level sub-class abilities are more important, but again it depends on the exact split and build you're going for. For example, on my Kensei Monk/War Cleric split I'm not too bothered about getting Deft Strike and Kensei Shot a little later as War Domain gives me Divine Favor for extra damage, and I can use War Priest to fire my longbow as a bonus action for the times when I switch to it. There will absolutely be cases where the trade-offs are harder, but that's specific sub-class combos, and true of a lot of multi-classes.
As for Ki points, that's just the reality of multi-classing; every level taken in one class is a level not gained in another. The key question is what you get instead of that 1 Ki point, and how well it fits your character. For example, again on my current character I'm not so inconvenienced by a loss of 1 Ki point when I gain three cantrips, six spells and two spell slots plus War Priest.
It depends a lot on the exact split you're going for and when; some options will inconvenience you more at lower levels then get stronger later, while others can give you immediate benefits well worth any delayed abilities. This is where Ranger for example is a bit trickier since the 1st level bonuses are very campaign dependent (though Tasha's Cauldron offers an alternative Favoured Foe that would stack well enough onto a Monk), but it's the 2nd and 3rd level you really want, so might be a tougher option early on.
However if you don't multi-class until level 7 then none of these things are really problems; six Ki isn't a huge number but it's a workable amount, and you can always alternate levels in each class depending on what exactly you want and when.
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Yeah if you focusing primarily on utility (such as expertise or spellcasting) then you will not likely notice the drop in damage as that was not the focus.
However the drop from not getting extra attack will be greatly noticeable especially with other martials if you want to maintain combat effectiveness. The extra BA attack also scales with monk level so your damage will not get any better and your chances to increase damage will be limited by the number of attacks you can make.
Divine Favor, Hunters mark, and the like will be overtly better with more attacks. So while they help offset the damage...they will not keep up with simply going more monk levels.
That being said as you stated depending on your campaign you might not notice or even care if your out of combat utility is greatly improved and you spend a low amount of time in combat.
However as I stated before honesty is important to me and damage will be greatly affected by these choices so its fair to mention that if you do MC you will have to ensure the benefits outweigh the costs for you as a player. Having a true interpretation of what to expect is the best way to make this decision.
As others have said, it depends on how many levels you put into it and what you're hoping to get out of it. The name of the game, as it were, is Opportunity Cost. An extra 2d6 from Sneak Attack isn't terrible; even at the cost of Extra Attack. The bonus action unarmed strike is no worse than the bonus action granted via Polearm Master, barring the possible lack of reach, and the monk can't benefit from those reach weapons anyway.
One of the possible goals of multiclassing is to excel in one thing; even at the expense of other things. That's why a Paladin 2/Sorcerer X is so popular: they get Boo Koo spell slots for Divine Smite. Circle of the Moon, with just one monk level, gets to add their Wisdom to AC when using Wild Shape. Assassin and Way of the Shadow is a popular multiclass build, as well. A half-elf Scout rogue/College of Lore bard could have 14 skill proficiencies by 6th level.
Multiclassing isn't something to be undertaken lightly. And none of this means the monk is bad at multiclassing. It just isn't good for what you want out of the deal; what you value most as a player. And that's okay. We all like different things. But just because we have one favorite flavor at Baskin Robbin's doesn't mean we should be knocking the other 30.
I think Monks can make interesting multiclass rangers, barbarians, fighters, or rogues (mechanically speaking). No martial should be multiclassing before 5 and that's fine. When you get a power spike that big, that's to be expected. You don't want to miss out or delay the power spike. After 5, it depends on what you're after and what the level 6 ability is. If you're a shadow monk and are subclassing in rogue, it's totally worth it to grab 6 for shadow step. If you're going barbarian with your drunken master, you don't need tipsy sway.
Ranger is a good subclass for rogue because of hunter's mark and both are dex/wisdom. Round one against a BBG you hit them with hunters mark, and from there on you're adding 4d6 to your turn. Gloomstalker would be great with a shadow monk. Dread Ambusher and Umbral Sight both fit very well. I don't really like any of the other subclasses because of how much bonus action economy issues arise. Dipping ranger just for 2 levels is fine though too.
I like Barbarian because how well rage fits with the high number of attacks the monk gets. Rage and attack twice, then on the rest of your turns add the rage damage to up to 4 attacks. That's a pretty good bump to damage. It obviously fits best with a strength monk who mostly focuses on strength, dex, and con so that reckless attack is a good move. Going bear totem with any monk is great, although thematically drunken master is probably the most fun.
Fighters make a good multiclass with any class, monks included. Action surge and a fighting style is worth it for anyone. Monks also benefit from champion, samurai, battle master, and probably other subclasses.
Rogue is always a good choice for monks, especially shadow monks with their ability to get advantage by teleporting between shadows. 6 monk / rogue X is a great multiclass option. You still get your 3-4 attacks, and you also get sneak attack, cunning action, a subclass, uncanny dodge, and whatever else depending on how high you take rogue.
I agree that ki is important to monks but it might be worth the trade offs to sacrifice some ki points to get other good abilities. There are plenty of good abilities from other classes that can augment the monk's kit and make for a very fun character.
Yeah agree on the martials should not MC until after 5 thoughts...Especially for newer players. It just very hard to justify the opportunity cost of that extra attack.
Paladin 2/Sorcerer X Is stated but that is generally seen as powerful because of one thing: Quicken Spell. This allows you to cast Booming Blade twice in a turn which simulates the Extra Attack of the paladin at 5th level.
This is a good example of the benefit (More powerful and more frequent smites along with the opportunity to still attack twice) is nice and clearly offset due to information on what works well.
The ice cream example is actually a good one...I am not saying that Monk's Moose Trax is a bad ice cream...In fact I say a lot of people like it! I am more giving people the warning it contains nuts...which some people do not like or cannot tolerate. Good honest information is key to helping people make good informed decisions.
So I fully agree that the players who want utility over damage should MC as soon as they want. No real reason to NOT pick up those cleric levels if that is what is fun to you. However, you should know that your damage will be much worse than if you choose to do it before level 5.
Its not knocking either its saying: "Monks and other martials have a higher opportunity cost to MC before 5th level...make sure that is what you want!"
Monks just suffer more than others due to the fact Ki is used for everything in their kit and it keys off monk levels. Not knocking the MC here simply saying you will have an even higher opportunity cost for not picking up Monk levels when it comes to doing Monk stuff. I don't care about monk stuff the decision becomes easier but by pointing this out people can make an informed decision.
This is why I hate when people only praise something and never offer constructive feedback. I am not saying you all are doing this but rather just making a point: Without honest criticism people will find out by themselves anyway and it breeds disappointment. Its even worse if they come into a space with others and their view point is summary dismissed without proper discourse.
This, more often than not, is what happens with monk. People come in to take an extreme on either side and not honestly discuss the pros/cons of the class. They instead focus only on the positive or negative aspects and fight over who is "right".
Sure, I'm not disputing any of that, but it's highly dependent on when you multi-class whether it's an issue or not. If you wait until level 6 or 7 then you've already got the extra attack, but even if you multi-class earlier there are plenty of multi-classing options that come with extra damage so while you'll have fewer attacks, you won't necessarily be doing losing damage overall. You also may only be pushing it back a single level; again, not saying it's not a legitimate consideration, but by the same token it shouldn't be blown out of proportion either, especially when a Monk has other ways to do extra attacks if extra attacks specifically are what you need (for breaking concentration, dealing with a miss or such).
Ki progression is a legitimate issue, and another reason why you probably don't want to multi-class too soon, but five or six is a workable amount, and depending on the multi-class you may be gaining other resources that compensate for lost Ki (or even let you do similar things in other ways). My Kensei/War Domain character is only level 4 with a single level dip in War Domain and while three Ki is tricky, one extra isn't world shattering, and I've got two spell slots instead.
When it comes to Monk progression in multi-classing I think it's best to think of a Monk as a bit like a mix between a fighter, rogue and a caster; when you multi-class in fighter you can delay attacks, when you multi-class in rogue you can limit your damage progression, and when you multi-class as a caster you can limit your spell-casting resource(s). The easiest multi-classes in raw combat terms are the ones that give you a replacement for at least one of these things, some mixture of two or more, or else something unique you absolutely can't do without for your character.
I already sort of mentioned this, but I feel like maybe you're looking at these from the wrong perspective. Firstly, if you take these after extra attack then you're losing nothing, and gaining damage on your full number of attacks. Even so, if you take it before extra attack, the extra damage minimises that "loss", plus it isn't the only benefit you're getting, and when you do add extra attack you end up with more damage overall. So at worst it's a small loss for a bigger later gain.
Divine Favor from War Domain and Hex from Warlock both require only a single level dip, and come with other benefits (features, spells, cantrips etc.) so even if you delay extra attack it's hard to rate that as a loss overall. Ranger is the trickier one since the 1st level doesn't give you much as a Monk unless your campaign features a lot of exploration; Tasha's Cauldron will help with that a bit though, the 2nd level is comparable to a single level dip in Cleric/Warlock but it's the 3rd level where it really starts to shine, so it's one you definitely want to plan for.
Multi-classing is always a balancing act; the same is true with the other martial classes, as no matter what you do you're delaying or putting a ceiling on something. That's not a unique issue to Monks, as any martial class that multi-classes will either delay Extra Attack or want to wait, so I'm not sure why you'd rank Monks as worst? They face the same basic challenges with multi-classing, and there are a lot of really good DEX and/or WIS classes to dip into that they mesh really well with.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Ah ok seems we are on the same page then. Mostly if you MC after 5th level you should be good to go as a martial. Or you get to start above 5th level of course. Monks rank the lowest for me for MC for the following:
Now none of these things are dealbreakers for MC but add up to be a higher cost than the others to some degree. Mostly because ki is hard to replace with other class features. It for sure can be done but the cost is pretty high.
Sure, I'm not saying having less Ki is meaningless, though you really have to put yourself pretty far back before it becomes a major issue. Having one or two fewer Ki points than a pure Monk isn't really much of an inconvenience, as the Ki points themselves never scale in value. If you compare to a spellcaster for example, where a delay in spell slot progression also means later access to higher level slots (and thus better spells in most cases) then the trade off in Ki isn't really a big deal.
If you're only taking a 1-4 level multi-class then you're still topping out at 16-19 Ki points, or a 5-20% loss, but you'll most likely be replacing them something that fulfils similar functions; spell slots, action uses, etc. as well as associated effects. If you get Rage from Barbarian, then you don't need to spend Ki on Patient Defence, a couple levels in Rogue effectively makes Step of the Wind free, two levels in Fighter gives you Action Surge which is better than a Flurry of Blows (or can be stacked on top of it) and so-on.
Sure, but none of the multi-class options I've listed are affected by this; a Monk should usually have good Dexterity and Wisdom, so any Wisdom based caster should already be perfectly compatible, as are any Dexterity friendly martial classes.
The trickiest class is Paladin as it needs both Strength and Charisma, but it's also a class that doesn't mesh super well with Monk anyway. For others such as Artificer & Wizard (Intelligence), Barbarian (Strength), and Bard, Sorcerer & Warlock (Charisma), getting a 13 in one stat isn't super hard unless you're using standard array, and for most of these there are other options; Cleric and Druid both give you a lot spell-casting if that's your goal for example.
You only lose full access to the top martial arts die if you take a full four levels in another class (which you may if you want to keep all ASIs), but the loss of a jump from d8 to d10 isn't exactly a huge loss; while it's the only jump that can boost your typically d8 Monk weapon attacks, a loss of 2 damage per round on average is unlikely to ruin your day (and fairly easily compensated for). As for the damage die on unarmed strikes, for most Monks this only makes a difference to their bonus action attacks (Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows) which Monks won't always be using anyway, and when they do often the focus is on quantity of attacks rather than raw damage. Even on sub-classes that use the Martial Arts die more (unarmed, Sun Soul, Open Palm, maybe Drunken Master) it's not a lot of lost damage.
I'd say a Rogue suffers more with damage progression by multi-classing as it only takes two levels to lose a step on Sneak Attack progression, and it's more damage lost on average (depending how often that Rogue can trigger Sneak Attack per turn, a Swashbuckler for example can trigger it nearly every turn, as well as potentially twice per round). A Monk for example could go up to a multi-class of 7 levels having lost only one step on their Martial Arts die, while a Rogue will lose three steps on Sneak Attack.
I just don't really see that any or even all of these things together hurt Monks all that much when multi-classing; what you can gain from a 1 to 4 level dip will surpass the losses in most cases, either by directly replacing them in some way (bonus damage, swap a point of Ki for spells etc.) or with something that adds to what you can do (non-combat bonuses usually, though these are hard to compare in value). You probably don't want to go too heavy on multi-classing (same as a caster multi-classing as a non-caster) but it works well IMO.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Paladins don't need Str any more than melee Fighters do. In other words, if they want to be Dex-based melee warrior, they just need enough Str to cover not being encumbered.
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MADness of monks is more about delaying the ASI progression with MC. Losing a +1 to DEX or WIS is much more impactful on a monk as they need both for the full kit.
Ki loss is dependent on campaign I will give you that. You may not notice if you do the 2 SR per day but having more Nova focused days (1-2 encounters) may or may not hurt more depending on the length of the fights.
Also it seems you assume a full 1-20 progression which I usually don't account for as data suggests 99% of campaigns end before level 12. However, assuming a full 1-20 progression I would agree the dip has less impact.
Overall its not a deal breaker but I do think they feel it a bit more than others even if its only a small stretch (6th through 9th)
Depending on how strictly the DM holds to the rules technically you need a 13 in STR and in CHA to multiclass into or out of paladin.
Strength is required for multiclassing Paladins, which is what the conversation was about- a MC of Monk and Paladin would require a 13 in Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and Charisma. Probably at least that much for Constitution. Might as well throw Intelligence on the block and go Abserd at that point.
I've come into this late (work before DnD), but this one stands out for me in the morass that has become this thread.
I'm also playing a Shadow Hand Monk (Lvl 8), playing all the way from Lvl 1. I'm playing a monk for the first time, and my experience is that while the damage output hasn't increased in line with the others in our party (Barbarian, Rangers etc) I've still had fun - I've learnt to involve my character in different ways rather than through combat.
It's both frustrating and satisfying at the same time. It's really stretched my play, having to interact differently in the game.
Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
Orryn Pebblefoot - Lvl 5 Rock Gnome Wizard (Deceased) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (Deceased)
Anerin Ap Tewdr - Lvl 5 Human (Variant) Bard (College of Valor) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist
Competing with the Ranger for damage output is probably a mistake, as they'll do the same weapon damage as you, plus a Fighting Style, plus probably Hunter's Mark and maybe other abilities if a Hunter/Monster Hunter etc. They're generally very good at stacking continuous damage, but that's kind of their thing after scouting/exploration.
But for a Barbarian while you'll be a bit behind on damage per hit, you have the option of doing more attacks if you want to; one as a bonus action at no Ki cost, or Flurry of Blows for one Ki. While unarmed strikes do less damage, it's not a lot less, and still gets your full Dexterity bonus on every one, which adds up quite nicely, plus as a general rule more attacks are valuable as it means you're less vulnerable to missing. You also should factor in things like Stunning Strike; the extra damage your allies do by not missing, and avoid by not being attacked, is your damage, not theirs (feel free to always remind them of that fact 😉).
Overall though you shouldn't really expect to do the same or more damage as other martials, as it's not the amount of damage that you do that's important, but who you deal it to; for a Way of Shadow Monk in particular, mobility is key, don't bother with chaff unless your allies are getting overwhelmed or there's nothing else left. Your targets should be things you can stun or otherwise distract, casters and ranged enemies being especially choice targets, either that or weakened enemies that your allies didn't take out but which you can finish off. One of the best uses for Flurry of Blows IMO is when there are several enemies you think you can finish off, as four attacks should get two or three fairly reliably, which again means less damage being dealt to the party.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah, that;s the way I'm playing it - it's been good with the evasion this round - saved on a few dex saves so avoided some damage there, and using patient defence I've also saved some damage, so overall I think it evens out.
Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
Orryn Pebblefoot - Lvl 5 Rock Gnome Wizard (Deceased) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (Deceased)
Anerin Ap Tewdr - Lvl 5 Human (Variant) Bard (College of Valor) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist
Yeah monk will fall behind on total damage but they do damage to the target they want to regardless of where they are due to mobility.
Stun Spam will shut down something if you really need it to which can be encounter defining.
They are very viable in combat but are not the top damage dealer...they get the damage where it needs to go.
Any examples of this? It seems like there are ranged options that make mobility moot, or that any melee character can be in range to deliver damage after the first round.
Mostly it boils down to movement speed and being able to avoid attacks on the way.
Monks have the best base movement and can run up walls at level 9 so they can simply avoid a lot of stuff in the way.
Rogue can too but they are more dependant on others being there as well to invoke their damage with sneak attack. They are still second when it comes to getting damage were it needs to be as a melee build.
As for ranged vs. melee I 100% agree 5e makes ranged just simply better 99% of the time.
Dex being so good overall, archery fighting style, sharpshooter, etc...
These all make melee builds really hard to justify for damage builds...as ranged will match about 95% of the damage of melee but you can be very far away.