That part killed me. I was psyched to think that you could use patient defense, then attack again - giving you at level 5, 3 attacks AND impose disadvantage for all attacks until your next turn, or attack-attack-step of the wind-attack.
My drunken master would have had a field day with this!
But no....they tried to save the Four Elements monk and instead pushed Kensei further ahead as arguably the best monk in game.
The healing is straight up bad. Only time to use it is right before a short rest. Way too steep a Ki cost and games rarely make it past 10th level, where the scaling would really matter.
That being said, Focused Aim is pretty great and the only thing that really benefits all monks.
You're right, that would be an incredible combo! ... because it would absolutely destroy the action economy.
Drunken Master already has a great way to break that action economy as well -- it is one of the only ways to get a free method to use a second action on your turn via FOB. Disengage alongside the bonus to movement speed (and Unarmored Movement) should arguably work better than Dodge for you... just kite your enemies around the battlefield.
The healing is not great, but it is better than nothing, and essentially gives you a free Hit Dice if you have extra ki before a short rest.
I'm among the fans of Four Elements that thought it only needed a minor fix, and this alone helps balance it a little bit more. (Next, just change the ki cost for abilities to be lighter -- reduce everything by 1 ki and it's immediately a slightly above average subclass.)
I'm among the fans of Four Elements that thought it only needed a minor fix, and this alone helps balance it a little bit more. (Next, just change the ki cost for abilities to be lighter -- reduce everything by 1 ki and it's immediately a slightly above average subclass.)
I think a 1 Ki reduction in cost (assuming you mean only for 2 Ki or higher?) would be too much; I think part of the intention of the cost is to make you think twice about spending Ki on other things in the same turn, e.g- casting and using Patient Defence in a single turn.
This is an issue with other Monk sub-classes that cast as well, though less so since they don't rely upon it as much. I think a better fix would be to give spell-casting Monks a pool of additional Ki that can only be spent on spells; for most it would be 1 every four levels (20+5 total), whereas for Way of the Four Elements it would maybe be 1 every two levels (20+10 total). This gives you extra Ki to burn on your spell-casting so effectively reduces the cost, but not by as much.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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I'm among the fans of Four Elements that thought it only needed a minor fix, and this alone helps balance it a little bit more. (Next, just change the ki cost for abilities to be lighter -- reduce everything by 1 ki and it's immediately a slightly above average subclass.)
I think a 1 Ki reduction in cost (assuming you mean only for 2 Ki or higher?) would be too much; I think part of the intention of the cost is to make you think twice about spending Ki on other things in the same turn, e.g- casting and using Patient Defence in a single turn.
This is an issue with other Monk sub-classes that cast as well, though less so since they don't rely upon it as much. I think a better fix would be to give spell-casting Monks a pool of additional Ki that can only be spent on spells; for most it would be 1 every four levels (20+5 total), whereas for Way of the Four Elements it would maybe be 1 every two levels (20+10 total). This gives you extra Ki to burn on your spell-casting so effectively reduces the cost, but not by as much.
The proposed fix that I'm attempting to find time to test is actually Slightly more Ki. Basically one more Ki point for each Tier of play. They can be gained the same time the new elemental disciplines are gotten and at level 20 if you subscribe to the 5 tier way of thinking and making max level the last tier. Which is basically what your describing. So at level 3 they'd get one extra ki for their starting in the class, At 6 they'd have a total of 2 extra. At 11 a total of 3 extra Ki. all the way up to 4 or 5. And I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference. I just think it will lessen the resource management requirements. They really do not need a massive chunk of extra ki to be effective. Just small gains at certain levels would still be big for them and make quite the little effect on them.
Reducing the Ki costs of all elemental disciplines that most people don't take into effect or don't realize is happening because they take the spells and compare them against Wizards and Sorcerer's and Warlocks instead of EK's and Rangers and Arcane Tricksters and the like in power. Which all get level 3 spells such as firball all in roughly the same 4 level range overall which is part of their balance. It also affects the upcasting of abilities which most people don't even bother to consider and how that might affect them. All they see is more and cheaper fireball and forget about the rest.
Er.... Every monk class can use this at level 3. Use in conjunction with patient defence or step of the wibd
No. It says "If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn". Spending a Ki point on Step of the Wind or Patient Defence is your Bonus Action and doesn't count - not to mention the fact that the Ki-Fueled Attack uses your Bonus Action which you wouldn't have if you used SotW or PD.
That part killed me. I was psyched to think that you could use patient defense, then attack again - giving you at level 5, 3 attacks AND impose disadvantage for all attacks until your next turn, or attack-attack-step of the wind-attack.
My drunken master would have had a field day with this!
But no....they tried to save the Four Elements monk and instead pushed Kensei further ahead as arguably the best monk in game.
The healing is straight up bad. Only time to use it is right before a short rest. Way too steep a Ki cost and games rarely make it past 10th level, where the scaling would really matter.
That being said, Focused Aim is pretty great and the only thing that really benefits all monks.
Except that it doesn't actually benefit all monks. The more spell caster in nature the monk gets, particularly if they get ways to attack saves instead, and the higher cost the regular mechanical loop the player has the less useful Spending a bunch of Ki in Focused Aim actually is. That is something that is often over looked when it comes to focused Aim. And Kensei really are not any further ahead in the game than other Monk subclasses. Except for perhaps as an Archer. It's not a significant gain on melee builds to be able to make a third weapon attack. It just feels better to those people that think that the Kensei makes too many unarmed attacks with their weapon focus.
I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
That would be an interesting alternative. Would you still allow Ki for casting as well, i.e- the slots would be your free, guaranteed castings, and you spend Ki if you need more? Since Profane Soul gets cantrips as well.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
That would be an interesting alternative. Would you still allow Ki for casting as well, i.e- the slots would be your free, guaranteed castings, and you spend Ki if you need more? Since Profane Soul gets cantrips as well.
That would be a good approach I think. That way if you did want some extra oofmph you could spend ki to get it. It also mirrors the PB uses approach somewhat from Dragon UA.
Er.... Every monk class can use this at level 3. Use in conjunction with patient defence or step of the wibd
No. It says "If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn". Spending a Ki point on Step of the Wind or Patient Defence is your Bonus Action and doesn't count - not to mention the fact that the Ki-Fueled Attack uses your Bonus Action which you wouldn't have if you used SotW or PD.
That part killed me. I was psyched to think that you could use patient defense, then attack again - giving you at level 5, 3 attacks AND impose disadvantage for all attacks until your next turn, or attack-attack-step of the wind-attack.
My drunken master would have had a field day with this!
But no....they tried to save the Four Elements monk and instead pushed Kensei further ahead as arguably the best monk in game.
The healing is straight up bad. Only time to use it is right before a short rest. Way too steep a Ki cost and games rarely make it past 10th level, where the scaling would really matter.
That being said, Focused Aim is pretty great and the only thing that really benefits all monks.
Except that it doesn't actually benefit all monks. The more spell caster in nature the monk gets, particularly if they get ways to attack saves instead, and the higher cost the regular mechanical loop the player has the less useful Spending a bunch of Ki in Focused Aim actually is. That is something that is often over looked when it comes to focused Aim. And Kensei really are not any further ahead in the game than other Monk subclasses. Except for perhaps as an Archer. It's not a significant gain on melee builds to be able to make a third weapon attack. It just feels better to those people that think that the Kensei makes too many unarmed attacks with their weapon focus.
I think you are thinking of Ki Fueled Strike.
Focused Aim allows you to add Ki points to your attack roll after the fact, turning potential misses into hits. I might be wrong but I believe this effects all attack roles, helping even Sun Soul and 4M monks. Its definitely a banger!
I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
I don't think you need to get that complicated with it.
All of these feel like adding additional complexity and resource management when the Monk already is VERY focused on resource management thanks to ki.
Personally, I say just make it simple: Reduce elemental discipline cost by 1 ki each. It's so simple and elegant of a solution that it should be implemented at every table to make Four Elements way more playable. It's still not a great subclass due to getting so little each time they get more disciplines -- only five known through level 20 (giving 2 disciplines per level, and/or better cantrips would help solve this), but it at least makes choosing between Water Whip or Hold Person and Stunning Strike (or Focused Aim) a real decision. Especially at low levels, ki is a super limiting factor ... at levels 3-5 you can do most of the elemental disciplines only twice per short rest, and then you give up on just about all of the rest of what makes Monks fun.
Think about it: Level 3: Water Whip/Unbroken Air/Four Thunders (3/4 best choices at this level) require 2/3 ki to be activated, and then you only get one chance to utilize the core ki abilities. I'd argue Fangs of the Fire Snake (the other best choice) is only useful if you use it for the 2 ki cost option as well, though that's open for debate. Level 4: Similar issue, but now we can use all those things twice, but then we entirely forgo our core ki abilities. Level 5: Stunning Strike and Focused Aim are online. Stunning Strike, at 1 ki cost, is more useful than these ED options and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer. At level five you shouldn't use ED options except in specific situations, such as inability to get into melee. Level 6: You want Hold Person? Okay ... it costs 3 ki. Against Stunning Strike, which is already a low-level Hold Person, which costs only two. It's a slightly better saving throw (WIS instead of CON) and inflicts a slightly better condition (paralyzed is stunned except melee hits are autocrits) and can last longer (or shorter, as the paralyzed creature repeats the save on its turn). It's a no-brainer to go with Stunning Strike there ... especially when you can now do it three times in one turn anyways, if you really need something stunned. And you're guaranteed to benefit from it on your next turn, assuming it goes through.
If Hold Person costs two ki? Then there's a choice, in my opinion. I'd still probably defer to Stunning Strike (I'd rather take Shatter at level six, but that's just me) most of the time, but it is at least a choice.
Don't overthink it. They don't need anything additional aside from ki reduction. Silly to justify giving more ki to them, when reducing cost is more elegant and accomplishes the same thing.
I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
I don't think you need to get that complicated with it.
All of these feel like adding additional complexity and resource management when the Monk already is VERY focused on resource management thanks to ki.
Personally, I say just make it simple: Reduce elemental discipline cost by 1 ki each. It's so simple and elegant of a solution that it should be implemented at every table to make Four Elements way more playable. It's still not a great subclass due to getting so little each time they get more disciplines -- only five known through level 20 (giving 2 disciplines per level, and/or better cantrips would help solve this), but it at least makes choosing between Water Whip or Hold Person and Stunning Strike (or Focused Aim) a real decision. Especially at low levels, ki is a super limiting factor ... at levels 3-5 you can do most of the elemental disciplines only twice per short rest, and then you give up on just about all of the rest of what makes Monks fun.
Think about it: Level 3: Water Whip/Unbroken Air/Four Thunders (3/4 best choices at this level) require 2/3 ki to be activated, and then you only get one chance to utilize the core ki abilities. I'd argue Fangs of the Fire Snake (the other best choice) is only useful if you use it for the 2 ki cost option as well, though that's open for debate. Level 4: Similar issue, but now we can use all those things twice, but then we entirely forgo our core ki abilities. Level 5: Stunning Strike and Focused Aim are online. Stunning Strike, at 1 ki cost, is more useful than these ED options and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer. At level five you shouldn't use ED options except in specific situations, such as inability to get into melee. Level 6: You want Hold Person? Okay ... it costs 3 ki. Against Stunning Strike, which is already a low-level Hold Person, which costs only two. It's a slightly better saving throw (WIS instead of CON) and inflicts a slightly better condition (paralyzed is stunned except melee hits are autocrits) and can last longer (or shorter, as the paralyzed creature repeats the save on its turn). It's a no-brainer to go with Stunning Strike there ... especially when you can now do it three times in one turn anyways, if you really need something stunned. And you're guaranteed to benefit from it on your next turn, assuming it goes through.
If Hold Person costs two ki? Then there's a choice, in my opinion. I'd still probably defer to Stunning Strike (I'd rather take Shatter at level six, but that's just me) most of the time, but it is at least a choice.
Don't overthink it. They don't need anything additional aside from ki reduction. Silly to justify giving more ki to them, when reducing cost is more elegant and accomplishes the same thing.
Yeah that is the other option I have heard and it works for me as well.
I think the pact slots is actually fairly simple once you get the table in place but I can see this way too.
Er.... Every monk class can use this at level 3. Use in conjunction with patient defence or step of the wibd
No. It says "If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn". Spending a Ki point on Step of the Wind or Patient Defence is your Bonus Action and doesn't count - not to mention the fact that the Ki-Fueled Attack uses your Bonus Action which you wouldn't have if you used SotW or PD.
That part killed me. I was psyched to think that you could use patient defense, then attack again - giving you at level 5, 3 attacks AND impose disadvantage for all attacks until your next turn, or attack-attack-step of the wind-attack.
My drunken master would have had a field day with this!
But no....they tried to save the Four Elements monk and instead pushed Kensei further ahead as arguably the best monk in game.
The healing is straight up bad. Only time to use it is right before a short rest. Way too steep a Ki cost and games rarely make it past 10th level, where the scaling would really matter.
That being said, Focused Aim is pretty great and the only thing that really benefits all monks.
Except that it doesn't actually benefit all monks. The more spell caster in nature the monk gets, particularly if they get ways to attack saves instead, and the higher cost the regular mechanical loop the player has the less useful Spending a bunch of Ki in Focused Aim actually is. That is something that is often over looked when it comes to focused Aim. And Kensei really are not any further ahead in the game than other Monk subclasses. Except for perhaps as an Archer. It's not a significant gain on melee builds to be able to make a third weapon attack. It just feels better to those people that think that the Kensei makes too many unarmed attacks with their weapon focus.
I think you are thinking of Ki Fueled Strike.
Focused Aim allows you to add Ki points to your attack roll after the fact, turning potential misses into hits. I might be wrong but I believe this effects all attack roles, helping even Sun Soul and 4M monks. Its definitely a banger!
I am not thinking Ki Fueled strike. I said it exactly as I meant it. There are things where it does not help. Most 4Elements monks if they are wisdom based do not get a major bonus out of spending ki for their physical attacks. It's just another potentially high priced expenditure where they already have a lot and The ki spent making sure attacks hit could just as easily be used in abilities that don't use attack rolls to begin with and instead use Saving Throws, not to mention those abilities still do half damage even if they save and often have other rider effects as well. This makes something like Focused Aim just another high cost liability instead of a vastly useful power. Sun soul Monks to an extent have the same problem.
I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
I don't think you need to get that complicated with it.
All of these feel like adding additional complexity and resource management when the Monk already is VERY focused on resource management thanks to ki.
Personally, I say just make it simple: Reduce elemental discipline cost by 1 ki each. It's so simple and elegant of a solution that it should be implemented at every table to make Four Elements way more playable. It's still not a great subclass due to getting so little each time they get more disciplines -- only five known through level 20 (giving 2 disciplines per level, and/or better cantrips would help solve this), but it at least makes choosing between Water Whip or Hold Person and Stunning Strike (or Focused Aim) a real decision. Especially at low levels, ki is a super limiting factor ... at levels 3-5 you can do most of the elemental disciplines only twice per short rest, and then you give up on just about all of the rest of what makes Monks fun.
Think about it: Level 3: Water Whip/Unbroken Air/Four Thunders (3/4 best choices at this level) require 2/3 ki to be activated, and then you only get one chance to utilize the core ki abilities. I'd argue Fangs of the Fire Snake (the other best choice) is only useful if you use it for the 2 ki cost option as well, though that's open for debate. Level 4: Similar issue, but now we can use all those things twice, but then we entirely forgo our core ki abilities. Level 5: Stunning Strike and Focused Aim are online. Stunning Strike, at 1 ki cost, is more useful than these ED options and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer. At level five you shouldn't use ED options except in specific situations, such as inability to get into melee. Level 6: You want Hold Person? Okay ... it costs 3 ki. Against Stunning Strike, which is already a low-level Hold Person, which costs only two. It's a slightly better saving throw (WIS instead of CON) and inflicts a slightly better condition (paralyzed is stunned except melee hits are autocrits) and can last longer (or shorter, as the paralyzed creature repeats the save on its turn). It's a no-brainer to go with Stunning Strike there ... especially when you can now do it three times in one turn anyways, if you really need something stunned. And you're guaranteed to benefit from it on your next turn, assuming it goes through.
If Hold Person costs two ki? Then there's a choice, in my opinion. I'd still probably defer to Stunning Strike (I'd rather take Shatter at level six, but that's just me) most of the time, but it is at least a choice.
Don't overthink it. They don't need anything additional aside from ki reduction. Silly to justify giving more ki to them, when reducing cost is more elegant and accomplishes the same thing.
You've actually stopped half way through on thinking it.
First of all to note. Ki is a short rest recharge. All of it. Not some of it. All of it. This actually causes a lot of hidden power in the monk and makes high costs not as high as they wuold be if it was a long rest mechanic. Even the very low cost subclasses would be painfully hurting if Ki was long rest and the middle ground ones would be basically crippled from costs, not just the 4 elements monk. This gives the monk a lot of hidden power so keep that in mind as I continue on because I might not always mention it but I will allude to certain comparisons to other classes while trying to stay focused purely on the monk. So what I say the monk can do may actually be double or triple what I mention when compared to an outside class, It's something almost always overlooked when making such comparisons but I'm going to try to limit myself away from long class comparisons if I can help it.
With that out of the way...
Just lowering costs by one ki has a nasty side affect. A decent sized power jump. Both in spam-ability of somewhat powerful abilities (particularly at low level) and in both immediate and higher upscale-ability. Meaning they can basically cast some things at effectively 5th or even 6th level or potentially many more times. This means that it's getting above and beyond other partial casters as well as mixing it with more castings when the 4 elements monk can already cast many of it's abilities more than partial casters can actually do with equivalent spells in spell slots.
Lowering the Ki by one in comparison to a little more Ki is actually far more unbalancing in comparison. Just at level 3 with something like Water Whip or Unbroken air. you turn an ability you can use 1 time into an ability that you can use 3 times and/or make it so they do even more damage than other things at this level. That is big considering these abilities already do average damage comparable to all 3 of your unarmed strikes and moves people around or knocks them prone when used purely by the book without lowered costs. Giving a vast improvement and by level 6 your making similar jumps in abilities gained at that level. And again at 11th level. People make remarks about how getting fireball at 11th level is weak. But we're talking about half or 1/3rd casters here. This is the range where they would get fireball because they have other abilities like martial prowess to rely on as well. Where others in this range can do say 1 fireball or maybe squeeze out 2. You'd be giving the 4 elements monk 3 fireballs off the bat (4 at 12) but also immediately upon getting to level 11 they can automatically cast 2 of those at 4th level spells and they can do the third one as a 4th level fireball by 12. Instead of the 2 going into 3 that they do with the costs from the book currently. Yes giving them 3 more ki by 11th level would mean the potential for a third fireball but you still don't get the upcasting potential that lowering all the ki costs creates.
Also what are you considering 2 cost for Fangs of the Fire snake? 1 to activate it and a single hit that has increased damage? Because fangs of the Fire Snake costs 1ki to simply use to change to fire damage and gain you reach. Additional ki are 1 hit per attack thta you increase the damage of for a total max of 5, which is technically 6 because to use all 5 you need to use FoB as well.
The other things you list when you get them at level 3 are all 2 ki. There is no three ki cost to them. you can't start upcasting these things until level 5. Then you can start spending 3 ki in them if you wish. But they are a choice to be made and they can be quite valuable when you make them. Particularly at low level. Average Damage on something like Unbroken Air or Water whip is fairly strong at level 3. It's an average damage of 15 and with benefits like knocking things prone or pulling targets towards you to do things like allow your group to be able to beat on them is very strong once you use it practically and not just stare at the numbers in a white room. Also Regular monks are going to quickly run out of Ki anyway no matter what they spend it on. Whether they choose to use it on core monk things or subclass things. It's just as draining for something like the Shadow Monk to use 1 of it's spells at level three and they don't get the advantage of doing damage with theirs. Level 4 just starts to slowly open things up more and same for 5 and even for 6.
Your no brainer about stunning strike is also wrong. Stunning Strike costs 1 ki. But it has some caveats...It only lasts a single turn and then you have to repeat it, You have to land an attack to even try to use it and they still get to make a save even when you do attach it to an attack so it may cost you multiple ki to just stun somebody for a single turn. While your taking a little bit of a gamble with Hold Person. It's potential to last longer, it's better status condition which benefits you and other melee's for doing more damage, Can quickly pay back the ki that other monks are wasting every turn trying to keep something stunned which Hold Person is basically doing anyway. Stunning strike is not the no brainer choice it's made out to be even for a 4 elements monk that is going to likely be better at getting stunning strike to be effective in the first place if they are wisdom based. Partially because it can be used on enemies that it's just a waste to try stunning strike on, despite the fact that many monks are wiling to throw away ki trying anyway.
People want to act like the fact that they get to make a Save from Hold Person at the END of each of their turns as some kind of death knell about how bad hold person is. But here's the cold reality comparison. With Hold Person You cast the affect (hopefully picking one that isn't super strong in Wis saves like a mage or a BBEG high HP, High Armor threat) and it rolls the save. If it fails it's paralyzed and then at the END of it's turn it tries to make a save. But it's turn is completely wasted and it didn't get to use Reactions or anything during that time. Should it fail the save again. it goes through all of this for another turn. And this can happen up to 10 times. Stunning Strike on the other hand. You have to roll to hit your target and assuming you hit, you have to spend a ki to stunning strike and get it to fail it's save, if you don't you have to manage to hit it yet again and spend a second Ki to try stunning strike again and potentially may have to try a third or a 4th time for yet more ki and even possibly a ki for FoB, All potentially with a reduced DC that they have to save again. Which often doesn't work well on the ones you really want or need it to, It loses it's reactions and at maximum it's next turn. At the end of it's next turn guaranteed to recover and you are guaranteed to have to repeat the process the next turn if you want to try and keep it stunned. Which quickly becomes costly and yet so many players often fail to notice how much ki they sometimes waste trying to get stunning strikes to work. Even with a 3 ki cost, Half your Ki at level 6 yes, With just a little smart targeting and a Good Wis for a Strong DC in comparison the 4 elements monk can end up potentially paying for that high ki cost in as little as two turns of Hold Person being effective AND increased damage not only for themselves but for all melee build characters in their party for as long as they do fail their saves. Including that first turn which actually means increased damage above and beyond what Stunned from Stunning Strike can provide in the same amount of time for it's lower cost but more complicated usage. It's a mediumly high cost, medium risk, Potentially high reward move to do Hold Person and it will not always pay off but as often as not when it does it will pay off well in a variety of ways when given practical application and a bit of thought to it's usage.
People need to really stop acting that just because there is the potential to save every round that means that the enemy definitely will make the save. Just like characters can fail these things multiple turns in a row. The enemies can do the same.
Also as a side note. Like I said I need to do a bit of testing but I don't believe that it will be that disruptive if a 4 elements monk could potentially do a couple more FoB's or one or two more stunning blows or another patient defense compared to other monks from other subclasses. At low levels 1 or maybe 2 more attacks is not all that unbalancing since many classes can do this with things like feats, subclass features, and potentially other such things. And at high levels There is an abundance of Ki and trying to just use it for FoB is not going to be easy because that's a lot of rounds to go through and Ki is a resource returned on shot rest. So you'd consistently have to have one or multiple very long fights between rests and have that regularly for there to be a notable difference damage wise. So unless special circumstances are happening Kensei or the Drunken Master using his ability to hit up to 5 FoB blows for 1 ki are still potentially superior damage. And at most at max level it's 1 more Cone of Cold or Wall of Fire at 24 or 25 Ki at a level most people don't bother playing at. So really all it does is make some of those higher cost abilities a little more appealing to use or make using them at low level a little more appealing.
Er.... Every monk class can use this at level 3. Use in conjunction with patient defence or step of the wibd
No. It says "If you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn". Spending a Ki point on Step of the Wind or Patient Defence is your Bonus Action and doesn't count - not to mention the fact that the Ki-Fueled Attack uses your Bonus Action which you wouldn't have if you used SotW or PD.
That part killed me. I was psyched to think that you could use patient defense, then attack again - giving you at level 5, 3 attacks AND impose disadvantage for all attacks until your next turn, or attack-attack-step of the wind-attack.
My drunken master would have had a field day with this!
But no....they tried to save the Four Elements monk and instead pushed Kensei further ahead as arguably the best monk in game.
The healing is straight up bad. Only time to use it is right before a short rest. Way too steep a Ki cost and games rarely make it past 10th level, where the scaling would really matter.
That being said, Focused Aim is pretty great and the only thing that really benefits all monks.
Except that it doesn't actually benefit all monks. The more spell caster in nature the monk gets, particularly if they get ways to attack saves instead, and the higher cost the regular mechanical loop the player has the less useful Spending a bunch of Ki in Focused Aim actually is. That is something that is often over looked when it comes to focused Aim. And Kensei really are not any further ahead in the game than other Monk subclasses. Except for perhaps as an Archer. It's not a significant gain on melee builds to be able to make a third weapon attack. It just feels better to those people that think that the Kensei makes too many unarmed attacks with their weapon focus.
I think you are thinking of Ki Fueled Strike.
Focused Aim allows you to add Ki points to your attack roll after the fact, turning potential misses into hits. I might be wrong but I believe this effects all attack roles, helping even Sun Soul and 4M monks. Its definitely a banger!
I am not thinking Ki Fueled strike. I said it exactly as I meant it. There are things where it does not help. Most 4Elements monks if they are wisdom based do not get a major bonus out of spending ki for their physical attacks. It's just another potentially high priced expenditure where they already have a lot and The ki spent making sure attacks hit could just as easily be used in abilities that don't use attack rolls to begin with and instead use Saving Throws, not to mention those abilities still do half damage even if they save and often have other rider effects as well. This makes something like Focused Aim just another high cost liability instead of a vastly useful power. Sun soul Monks to an extent have the same problem.
Ah I see what you mean. Classes that are forced to focus on Wisdom (4E and SS) might feel a bit restricted. That being said Dex is a major requirement for the monk regardless and it should always be equal to if not higher than Wis regardless. And there will be times when these monks might be caught in a melee situation. There is literally no downside to spending the Ki point to ensure the hit and getting out of the situation. Of course its up to the player if they want to do it so its not a requirement. Just a little added bonus in times of emergency.
That being said, using Ki to increase your save DC would be great for all monks so I'm with you there.
I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
I don't think you need to get that complicated with it.
All of these feel like adding additional complexity and resource management when the Monk already is VERY focused on resource management thanks to ki.
Personally, I say just make it simple: Reduce elemental discipline cost by 1 ki each. It's so simple and elegant of a solution that it should be implemented at every table to make Four Elements way more playable. It's still not a great subclass due to getting so little each time they get more disciplines -- only five known through level 20 (giving 2 disciplines per level, and/or better cantrips would help solve this), but it at least makes choosing between Water Whip or Hold Person and Stunning Strike (or Focused Aim) a real decision. Especially at low levels, ki is a super limiting factor ... at levels 3-5 you can do most of the elemental disciplines only twice per short rest, and then you give up on just about all of the rest of what makes Monks fun.
Think about it: Level 3: Water Whip/Unbroken Air/Four Thunders (3/4 best choices at this level) require 2/3 ki to be activated, and then you only get one chance to utilize the core ki abilities. I'd argue Fangs of the Fire Snake (the other best choice) is only useful if you use it for the 2 ki cost option as well, though that's open for debate. Level 4: Similar issue, but now we can use all those things twice, but then we entirely forgo our core ki abilities. Level 5: Stunning Strike and Focused Aim are online. Stunning Strike, at 1 ki cost, is more useful than these ED options and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer. At level five you shouldn't use ED options except in specific situations, such as inability to get into melee. Level 6: You want Hold Person? Okay ... it costs 3 ki. Against Stunning Strike, which is already a low-level Hold Person, which costs only two. It's a slightly better saving throw (WIS instead of CON) and inflicts a slightly better condition (paralyzed is stunned except melee hits are autocrits) and can last longer (or shorter, as the paralyzed creature repeats the save on its turn). It's a no-brainer to go with Stunning Strike there ... especially when you can now do it three times in one turn anyways, if you really need something stunned. And you're guaranteed to benefit from it on your next turn, assuming it goes through.
If Hold Person costs two ki? Then there's a choice, in my opinion. I'd still probably defer to Stunning Strike (I'd rather take Shatter at level six, but that's just me) most of the time, but it is at least a choice.
Don't overthink it. They don't need anything additional aside from ki reduction. Silly to justify giving more ki to them, when reducing cost is more elegant and accomplishes the same thing.
You've actually stopped half way through on thinking it.
First of all to note. Ki is a short rest recharge. All of it. Not some of it. All of it. This actually causes a lot of hidden power in the monk and makes high costs not as high as they wuold be if it was a long rest mechanic. Even the very low cost subclasses would be painfully hurting if Ki was long rest and the middle ground ones would be basically crippled from costs, not just the 4 elements monk. This gives the monk a lot of hidden power so keep that in mind as I continue on because I might not always mention it but I will allude to certain comparisons to other classes while trying to stay focused purely on the monk. So what I say the monk can do may actually be double or triple what I mention when compared to an outside class, It's something almost always overlooked when making such comparisons but I'm going to try to limit myself away from long class comparisons if I can help it.
With that out of the way...
Just lowering costs by one ki has a nasty side affect. A decent sized power jump. Both in spam-ability of somewhat powerful abilities (particularly at low level) and in both immediate and higher upscale-ability. Meaning they can basically cast some things at effectively 5th or even 6th level or potentially many more times. This means that it's getting above and beyond other partial casters as well as mixing it with more castings when the 4 elements monk can already cast many of it's abilities more than partial casters can actually do with equivalent spells in spell slots.
Lowering the Ki by one in comparison to a little more Ki is actually far more unbalancing in comparison. Just at level 3 with something like Water Whip or Unbroken air. you turn an ability you can use 1 time into an ability that you can use 3 times and/or make it so they do even more damage than other things at this level. That is big considering these abilities already do average damage comparable to all 3 of your unarmed strikes and moves people around or knocks them prone when used purely by the book without lowered costs. Giving a vast improvement and by level 6 your making similar jumps in abilities gained at that level. And again at 11th level. People make remarks about how getting fireball at 11th level is weak. But we're talking about half or 1/3rd casters here. This is the range where they would get fireball because they have other abilities like martial prowess to rely on as well. Where others in this range can do say 1 fireball or maybe squeeze out 2. You'd be giving the 4 elements monk 3 fireballs off the bat (4 at 12) but also immediately upon getting to level 11 they can automatically cast 2 of those at 4th level spells and they can do the third one as a 4th level fireball by 12. Instead of the 2 going into 3 that they do with the costs from the book currently. Yes giving them 3 more ki by 11th level would mean the potential for a third fireball but you still don't get the upcasting potential that lowering all the ki costs creates.
Also what are you considering 2 cost for Fangs of the Fire snake? 1 to activate it and a single hit that has increased damage? Because fangs of the Fire Snake costs 1ki to simply use to change to fire damage and gain you reach. Additional ki are 1 hit per attack thta you increase the damage of for a total max of 5, which is technically 6 because to use all 5 you need to use FoB as well.
The other things you list when you get them at level 3 are all 2 ki. There is no three ki cost to them. you can't start upcasting these things until level 5. Then you can start spending 3 ki in them if you wish. But they are a choice to be made and they can be quite valuable when you make them. Particularly at low level. Average Damage on something like Unbroken Air or Water whip is fairly strong at level 3. It's an average damage of 15 and with benefits like knocking things prone or pulling targets towards you to do things like allow your group to be able to beat on them is very strong once you use it practically and not just stare at the numbers in a white room. Also Regular monks are going to quickly run out of Ki anyway no matter what they spend it on. Whether they choose to use it on core monk things or subclass things. It's just as draining for something like the Shadow Monk to use 1 of it's spells at level three and they don't get the advantage of doing damage with theirs. Level 4 just starts to slowly open things up more and same for 5 and even for 6.
Your no brainer about stunning strike is also wrong. Stunning Strike costs 1 ki. But it has some caveats...It only lasts a single turn and then you have to repeat it, You have to land an attack to even try to use it and they still get to make a save even when you do attach it to an attack so it may cost you multiple ki to just stun somebody for a single turn. While your taking a little bit of a gamble with Hold Person. It's potential to last longer, it's better status condition which benefits you and other melee's for doing more damage, Can quickly pay back the ki that other monks are wasting every turn trying to keep something stunned which Hold Person is basically doing anyway. Stunning strike is not the no brainer choice it's made out to be even for a 4 elements monk that is going to likely be better at getting stunning strike to be effective in the first place if they are wisdom based. Partially because it can be used on enemies that it's just a waste to try stunning strike on, despite the fact that many monks are wiling to throw away ki trying anyway.
People want to act like the fact that they get to make a Save from Hold Person at the END of each of their turns as some kind of death knell about how bad hold person is. But here's the cold reality comparison. With Hold Person You cast the affect (hopefully picking one that isn't super strong in Wis saves like a mage or a BBEG high HP, High Armor threat) and it rolls the save. If it fails it's paralyzed and then at the END of it's turn it tries to make a save. But it's turn is completely wasted and it didn't get to use Reactions or anything during that time. Should it fail the save again. it goes through all of this for another turn. And this can happen up to 10 times. Stunning Strike on the other hand. You have to roll to hit your target and assuming you hit, you have to spend a ki to stunning strike and get it to fail it's save, if you don't you have to manage to hit it yet again and spend a second Ki to try stunning strike again and potentially may have to try a third or a 4th time for yet more ki and even possibly a ki for FoB, All potentially with a reduced DC that they have to save again. Which often doesn't work well on the ones you really want or need it to, It loses it's reactions and at maximum it's next turn. At the end of it's next turn guaranteed to recover and you are guaranteed to have to repeat the process the next turn if you want to try and keep it stunned. Which quickly becomes costly and yet so many players often fail to notice how much ki they sometimes waste trying to get stunning strikes to work. Even with a 3 ki cost, Half your Ki at level 6 yes, With just a little smart targeting and a Good Wis for a Strong DC in comparison the 4 elements monk can end up potentially paying for that high ki cost in as little as two turns of Hold Person being effective AND increased damage not only for themselves but for all melee build characters in their party for as long as they do fail their saves. Including that first turn which actually means increased damage above and beyond what Stunned from Stunning Strike can provide in the same amount of time for it's lower cost but more complicated usage. It's a mediumly high cost, medium risk, Potentially high reward move to do Hold Person and it will not always pay off but as often as not when it does it will pay off well in a variety of ways when given practical application and a bit of thought to it's usage.
People need to really stop acting that just because there is the potential to save every round that means that the enemy definitely will make the save. Just like characters can fail these things multiple turns in a row. The enemies can do the same.
Also as a side note. Like I said I need to do a bit of testing but I don't believe that it will be that disruptive if a 4 elements monk could potentially do a couple more FoB's or one or two more stunning blows or another patient defense compared to other monks from other subclasses. At low levels 1 or maybe 2 more attacks is not all that unbalancing since many classes can do this with things like feats, subclass features, and potentially other such things. And at high levels There is an abundance of Ki and trying to just use it for FoB is not going to be easy because that's a lot of rounds to go through and Ki is a resource returned on shot rest. So you'd consistently have to have one or multiple very long fights between rests and have that regularly for there to be a notable difference damage wise. So unless special circumstances are happening Kensei or the Drunken Master using his ability to hit up to 5 FoB blows for 1 ki are still potentially superior damage. And at most at max level it's 1 more Cone of Cold or Wall of Fire at 24 or 25 Ki at a level most people don't bother playing at. So really all it does is make some of those higher cost abilities a little more appealing to use or make using them at low level a little more appealing.
On your point of hold person I agree it can be a good option. The one problem is it can depend on initiative order for how effective it can be. If you cast hold person on the target and they are next in the initiative order then, yes, they waste their turn, which is good, but your party never gets to benefit if they then make the save. Stunning strike lasts until your turn so the party gets the advantage on attacks no matter the initiative order.
I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
I don't think you need to get that complicated with it.
All of these feel like adding additional complexity and resource management when the Monk already is VERY focused on resource management thanks to ki.
Personally, I say just make it simple: Reduce elemental discipline cost by 1 ki each. It's so simple and elegant of a solution that it should be implemented at every table to make Four Elements way more playable. It's still not a great subclass due to getting so little each time they get more disciplines -- only five known through level 20 (giving 2 disciplines per level, and/or better cantrips would help solve this), but it at least makes choosing between Water Whip or Hold Person and Stunning Strike (or Focused Aim) a real decision. Especially at low levels, ki is a super limiting factor ... at levels 3-5 you can do most of the elemental disciplines only twice per short rest, and then you give up on just about all of the rest of what makes Monks fun.
Think about it: Level 3: Water Whip/Unbroken Air/Four Thunders (3/4 best choices at this level) require 2/3 ki to be activated, and then you only get one chance to utilize the core ki abilities. I'd argue Fangs of the Fire Snake (the other best choice) is only useful if you use it for the 2 ki cost option as well, though that's open for debate. Level 4: Similar issue, but now we can use all those things twice, but then we entirely forgo our core ki abilities. Level 5: Stunning Strike and Focused Aim are online. Stunning Strike, at 1 ki cost, is more useful than these ED options and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer. At level five you shouldn't use ED options except in specific situations, such as inability to get into melee. Level 6: You want Hold Person? Okay ... it costs 3 ki. Against Stunning Strike, which is already a low-level Hold Person, which costs only two. It's a slightly better saving throw (WIS instead of CON) and inflicts a slightly better condition (paralyzed is stunned except melee hits are autocrits) and can last longer (or shorter, as the paralyzed creature repeats the save on its turn). It's a no-brainer to go with Stunning Strike there ... especially when you can now do it three times in one turn anyways, if you really need something stunned. And you're guaranteed to benefit from it on your next turn, assuming it goes through.
If Hold Person costs two ki? Then there's a choice, in my opinion. I'd still probably defer to Stunning Strike (I'd rather take Shatter at level six, but that's just me) most of the time, but it is at least a choice.
Don't overthink it. They don't need anything additional aside from ki reduction. Silly to justify giving more ki to them, when reducing cost is more elegant and accomplishes the same thing.
You've actually stopped half way through on thinking it.
First of all to note. Ki is a short rest recharge. All of it. Not some of it. All of it. This actually causes a lot of hidden power in the monk and makes high costs not as high as they wuold be if it was a long rest mechanic. Even the very low cost subclasses would be painfully hurting if Ki was long rest and the middle ground ones would be basically crippled from costs, not just the 4 elements monk. This gives the monk a lot of hidden power so keep that in mind as I continue on because I might not always mention it but I will allude to certain comparisons to other classes while trying to stay focused purely on the monk. So what I say the monk can do may actually be double or triple what I mention when compared to an outside class, It's something almost always overlooked when making such comparisons but I'm going to try to limit myself away from long class comparisons if I can help it.
With that out of the way...
Just lowering costs by one ki has a nasty side affect. A decent sized power jump. Both in spam-ability of somewhat powerful abilities (particularly at low level) and in both immediate and higher upscale-ability. Meaning they can basically cast some things at effectively 5th or even 6th level or potentially many more times. This means that it's getting above and beyond other partial casters as well as mixing it with more castings when the 4 elements monk can already cast many of it's abilities more than partial casters can actually do with equivalent spells in spell slots.
Lowering the Ki by one in comparison to a little more Ki is actually far more unbalancing in comparison. Just at level 3 with something like Water Whip or Unbroken air. you turn an ability you can use 1 time into an ability that you can use 3 times and/or make it so they do even more damage than other things at this level. That is big considering these abilities already do average damage comparable to all 3 of your unarmed strikes and moves people around or knocks them prone when used purely by the book without lowered costs. Giving a vast improvement and by level 6 your making similar jumps in abilities gained at that level. And again at 11th level. People make remarks about how getting fireball at 11th level is weak. But we're talking about half or 1/3rd casters here. This is the range where they would get fireball because they have other abilities like martial prowess to rely on as well. Where others in this range can do say 1 fireball or maybe squeeze out 2. You'd be giving the 4 elements monk 3 fireballs off the bat (4 at 12) but also immediately upon getting to level 11 they can automatically cast 2 of those at 4th level spells and they can do the third one as a 4th level fireball by 12. Instead of the 2 going into 3 that they do with the costs from the book currently. Yes giving them 3 more ki by 11th level would mean the potential for a third fireball but you still don't get the upcasting potential that lowering all the ki costs creates.
Also what are you considering 2 cost for Fangs of the Fire snake? 1 to activate it and a single hit that has increased damage? Because fangs of the Fire Snake costs 1ki to simply use to change to fire damage and gain you reach. Additional ki are 1 hit per attack thta you increase the damage of for a total max of 5, which is technically 6 because to use all 5 you need to use FoB as well.
The other things you list when you get them at level 3 are all 2 ki. There is no three ki cost to them. you can't start upcasting these things until level 5. Then you can start spending 3 ki in them if you wish. But they are a choice to be made and they can be quite valuable when you make them. Particularly at low level. Average Damage on something like Unbroken Air or Water whip is fairly strong at level 3. It's an average damage of 15 and with benefits like knocking things prone or pulling targets towards you to do things like allow your group to be able to beat on them is very strong once you use it practically and not just stare at the numbers in a white room. Also Regular monks are going to quickly run out of Ki anyway no matter what they spend it on. Whether they choose to use it on core monk things or subclass things. It's just as draining for something like the Shadow Monk to use 1 of it's spells at level three and they don't get the advantage of doing damage with theirs. Level 4 just starts to slowly open things up more and same for 5 and even for 6.
Your no brainer about stunning strike is also wrong. Stunning Strike costs 1 ki. But it has some caveats...It only lasts a single turn and then you have to repeat it, You have to land an attack to even try to use it and they still get to make a save even when you do attach it to an attack so it may cost you multiple ki to just stun somebody for a single turn. While your taking a little bit of a gamble with Hold Person. It's potential to last longer, it's better status condition which benefits you and other melee's for doing more damage, Can quickly pay back the ki that other monks are wasting every turn trying to keep something stunned which Hold Person is basically doing anyway. Stunning strike is not the no brainer choice it's made out to be even for a 4 elements monk that is going to likely be better at getting stunning strike to be effective in the first place if they are wisdom based. Partially because it can be used on enemies that it's just a waste to try stunning strike on, despite the fact that many monks are wiling to throw away ki trying anyway.
People want to act like the fact that they get to make a Save from Hold Person at the END of each of their turns as some kind of death knell about how bad hold person is. But here's the cold reality comparison. With Hold Person You cast the affect (hopefully picking one that isn't super strong in Wis saves like a mage or a BBEG high HP, High Armor threat) and it rolls the save. If it fails it's paralyzed and then at the END of it's turn it tries to make a save. But it's turn is completely wasted and it didn't get to use Reactions or anything during that time. Should it fail the save again. it goes through all of this for another turn. And this can happen up to 10 times. Stunning Strike on the other hand. You have to roll to hit your target and assuming you hit, you have to spend a ki to stunning strike and get it to fail it's save, if you don't you have to manage to hit it yet again and spend a second Ki to try stunning strike again and potentially may have to try a third or a 4th time for yet more ki and even possibly a ki for FoB, All potentially with a reduced DC that they have to save again. Which often doesn't work well on the ones you really want or need it to, It loses it's reactions and at maximum it's next turn. At the end of it's next turn guaranteed to recover and you are guaranteed to have to repeat the process the next turn if you want to try and keep it stunned. Which quickly becomes costly and yet so many players often fail to notice how much ki they sometimes waste trying to get stunning strikes to work. Even with a 3 ki cost, Half your Ki at level 6 yes, With just a little smart targeting and a Good Wis for a Strong DC in comparison the 4 elements monk can end up potentially paying for that high ki cost in as little as two turns of Hold Person being effective AND increased damage not only for themselves but for all melee build characters in their party for as long as they do fail their saves. Including that first turn which actually means increased damage above and beyond what Stunned from Stunning Strike can provide in the same amount of time for it's lower cost but more complicated usage. It's a mediumly high cost, medium risk, Potentially high reward move to do Hold Person and it will not always pay off but as often as not when it does it will pay off well in a variety of ways when given practical application and a bit of thought to it's usage.
People need to really stop acting that just because there is the potential to save every round that means that the enemy definitely will make the save. Just like characters can fail these things multiple turns in a row. The enemies can do the same.
Also as a side note. Like I said I need to do a bit of testing but I don't believe that it will be that disruptive if a 4 elements monk could potentially do a couple more FoB's or one or two more stunning blows or another patient defense compared to other monks from other subclasses. At low levels 1 or maybe 2 more attacks is not all that unbalancing since many classes can do this with things like feats, subclass features, and potentially other such things. And at high levels There is an abundance of Ki and trying to just use it for FoB is not going to be easy because that's a lot of rounds to go through and Ki is a resource returned on shot rest. So you'd consistently have to have one or multiple very long fights between rests and have that regularly for there to be a notable difference damage wise. So unless special circumstances are happening Kensei or the Drunken Master using his ability to hit up to 5 FoB blows for 1 ki are still potentially superior damage. And at most at max level it's 1 more Cone of Cold or Wall of Fire at 24 or 25 Ki at a level most people don't bother playing at. So really all it does is make some of those higher cost abilities a little more appealing to use or make using them at low level a little more appealing.
On your point of hold person I agree it can be a good option. The one problem is it can depend on initiative order for how effective it can be. If you cast hold person on the target and they are next in the initiative order then, yes, they waste their turn, which is good, but your party never gets to benefit if they then make the save. Stunning strike lasts until your turn so the party gets the advantage on attacks no matter the initiative order.
This is part of the core of my point. Hold Person against Stunning Strike, in a vacuum, is better. It inflicts a stronger condition, and can potentially keep them paralyzed for several rounds.
But, there are three major reasons Stunning Strike is nearly always beneficial: 1) Ki cost. At the cost of 1 ki, you can inflict stunned. That's compared to 3 ki to inflict paralyzed. So two more ki just to get crit hits on every melee attack. 2) Number of saving throws. Looking on a scope of one round (meaning until the Monk's next turn), at level five, a Monk can spend as many as 4 ki to force 4 saving throws. They only need the target to fail one of those saves to be subject to easy damage for an entire round ... including the Monk's own turn! If they fail the first save, then the Monk gets the advantage of attacking a stunned target for the rest of this turn and all of their next turn. OR they can attempt to stun more targets! Compared to Hold Person, the Monk can spend 3 ki to attempt to paralyze one humanoid. They will get two saves (one upon the Monk casting it, one on their turn) to break out of this before the Monk's next turn. So for Stunning Strike, we can inflict multiple saving throws and only need them to fail once. With Hold Person, we can inflict two saving throws and they need to fail them both in order for it to last even as long as Stunning Strike. 3) Creatures affected. Hold Person only affects humanoids. Stunning Strike affects all creatures. There are exactly three humanoid creatures in all of 5e with WIS <10 and CR >3, and all are from Ravnica. (I figure lower CR monsters are not worth targeting with Hold Person anyways.) That means for the vast majority of humanoids to fail two consecutive WIS throws, you're already talking about a 40% chance only.
And as much as CON might be the worst save to inflict on creatures, WIS is nearly as bad. Average CON save for all creatures is about 3.3, average WIS save for humanoids CR >3 is 2.9. So really, against the creatures affected, the save isn't even that much better. (Data found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10anA394CmxeLYTxuMYVnmmjiYLLedXfv6MBbpxEy2Kw/edit#gid=0)
The more I think about this, the more I'm realizing that even reducing cost to 1 ki for Hold Person might only make it on par with Stunning Strike.
I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
I don't think you need to get that complicated with it.
All of these feel like adding additional complexity and resource management when the Monk already is VERY focused on resource management thanks to ki.
Personally, I say just make it simple: Reduce elemental discipline cost by 1 ki each. It's so simple and elegant of a solution that it should be implemented at every table to make Four Elements way more playable. It's still not a great subclass due to getting so little each time they get more disciplines -- only five known through level 20 (giving 2 disciplines per level, and/or better cantrips would help solve this), but it at least makes choosing between Water Whip or Hold Person and Stunning Strike (or Focused Aim) a real decision. Especially at low levels, ki is a super limiting factor ... at levels 3-5 you can do most of the elemental disciplines only twice per short rest, and then you give up on just about all of the rest of what makes Monks fun.
Think about it: Level 3: Water Whip/Unbroken Air/Four Thunders (3/4 best choices at this level) require 2/3 ki to be activated, and then you only get one chance to utilize the core ki abilities. I'd argue Fangs of the Fire Snake (the other best choice) is only useful if you use it for the 2 ki cost option as well, though that's open for debate. Level 4: Similar issue, but now we can use all those things twice, but then we entirely forgo our core ki abilities. Level 5: Stunning Strike and Focused Aim are online. Stunning Strike, at 1 ki cost, is more useful than these ED options and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer. At level five you shouldn't use ED options except in specific situations, such as inability to get into melee. Level 6: You want Hold Person? Okay ... it costs 3 ki. Against Stunning Strike, which is already a low-level Hold Person, which costs only two. It's a slightly better saving throw (WIS instead of CON) and inflicts a slightly better condition (paralyzed is stunned except melee hits are autocrits) and can last longer (or shorter, as the paralyzed creature repeats the save on its turn). It's a no-brainer to go with Stunning Strike there ... especially when you can now do it three times in one turn anyways, if you really need something stunned. And you're guaranteed to benefit from it on your next turn, assuming it goes through.
If Hold Person costs two ki? Then there's a choice, in my opinion. I'd still probably defer to Stunning Strike (I'd rather take Shatter at level six, but that's just me) most of the time, but it is at least a choice.
Don't overthink it. They don't need anything additional aside from ki reduction. Silly to justify giving more ki to them, when reducing cost is more elegant and accomplishes the same thing.
You've actually stopped half way through on thinking it.
First of all to note. Ki is a short rest recharge. All of it. Not some of it. All of it. This actually causes a lot of hidden power in the monk and makes high costs not as high as they wuold be if it was a long rest mechanic. Even the very low cost subclasses would be painfully hurting if Ki was long rest and the middle ground ones would be basically crippled from costs, not just the 4 elements monk. This gives the monk a lot of hidden power so keep that in mind as I continue on because I might not always mention it but I will allude to certain comparisons to other classes while trying to stay focused purely on the monk. So what I say the monk can do may actually be double or triple what I mention when compared to an outside class, It's something almost always overlooked when making such comparisons but I'm going to try to limit myself away from long class comparisons if I can help it.
With that out of the way...
Just lowering costs by one ki has a nasty side affect. A decent sized power jump. Both in spam-ability of somewhat powerful abilities (particularly at low level) and in both immediate and higher upscale-ability. Meaning they can basically cast some things at effectively 5th or even 6th level or potentially many more times. This means that it's getting above and beyond other partial casters as well as mixing it with more castings when the 4 elements monk can already cast many of it's abilities more than partial casters can actually do with equivalent spells in spell slots.
Lowering the Ki by one in comparison to a little more Ki is actually far more unbalancing in comparison. Just at level 3 with something like Water Whip or Unbroken air. you turn an ability you can use 1 time into an ability that you can use 3 times and/or make it so they do even more damage than other things at this level. That is big considering these abilities already do average damage comparable to all 3 of your unarmed strikes and moves people around or knocks them prone when used purely by the book without lowered costs. Giving a vast improvement and by level 6 your making similar jumps in abilities gained at that level. And again at 11th level. People make remarks about how getting fireball at 11th level is weak. But we're talking about half or 1/3rd casters here. This is the range where they would get fireball because they have other abilities like martial prowess to rely on as well. Where others in this range can do say 1 fireball or maybe squeeze out 2. You'd be giving the 4 elements monk 3 fireballs off the bat (4 at 12) but also immediately upon getting to level 11 they can automatically cast 2 of those at 4th level spells and they can do the third one as a 4th level fireball by 12. Instead of the 2 going into 3 that they do with the costs from the book currently. Yes giving them 3 more ki by 11th level would mean the potential for a third fireball but you still don't get the upcasting potential that lowering all the ki costs creates.
Also what are you considering 2 cost for Fangs of the Fire snake? 1 to activate it and a single hit that has increased damage? Because fangs of the Fire Snake costs 1ki to simply use to change to fire damage and gain you reach. Additional ki are 1 hit per attack thta you increase the damage of for a total max of 5, which is technically 6 because to use all 5 you need to use FoB as well.
The other things you list when you get them at level 3 are all 2 ki. There is no three ki cost to them. you can't start upcasting these things until level 5. Then you can start spending 3 ki in them if you wish. But they are a choice to be made and they can be quite valuable when you make them. Particularly at low level. Average Damage on something like Unbroken Air or Water whip is fairly strong at level 3. It's an average damage of 15 and with benefits like knocking things prone or pulling targets towards you to do things like allow your group to be able to beat on them is very strong once you use it practically and not just stare at the numbers in a white room. Also Regular monks are going to quickly run out of Ki anyway no matter what they spend it on. Whether they choose to use it on core monk things or subclass things. It's just as draining for something like the Shadow Monk to use 1 of it's spells at level three and they don't get the advantage of doing damage with theirs. Level 4 just starts to slowly open things up more and same for 5 and even for 6.
Your no brainer about stunning strike is also wrong. Stunning Strike costs 1 ki. But it has some caveats...It only lasts a single turn and then you have to repeat it, You have to land an attack to even try to use it and they still get to make a save even when you do attach it to an attack so it may cost you multiple ki to just stun somebody for a single turn. While your taking a little bit of a gamble with Hold Person. It's potential to last longer, it's better status condition which benefits you and other melee's for doing more damage, Can quickly pay back the ki that other monks are wasting every turn trying to keep something stunned which Hold Person is basically doing anyway. Stunning strike is not the no brainer choice it's made out to be even for a 4 elements monk that is going to likely be better at getting stunning strike to be effective in the first place if they are wisdom based. Partially because it can be used on enemies that it's just a waste to try stunning strike on, despite the fact that many monks are wiling to throw away ki trying anyway.
People want to act like the fact that they get to make a Save from Hold Person at the END of each of their turns as some kind of death knell about how bad hold person is. But here's the cold reality comparison. With Hold Person You cast the affect (hopefully picking one that isn't super strong in Wis saves like a mage or a BBEG high HP, High Armor threat) and it rolls the save. If it fails it's paralyzed and then at the END of it's turn it tries to make a save. But it's turn is completely wasted and it didn't get to use Reactions or anything during that time. Should it fail the save again. it goes through all of this for another turn. And this can happen up to 10 times. Stunning Strike on the other hand. You have to roll to hit your target and assuming you hit, you have to spend a ki to stunning strike and get it to fail it's save, if you don't you have to manage to hit it yet again and spend a second Ki to try stunning strike again and potentially may have to try a third or a 4th time for yet more ki and even possibly a ki for FoB, All potentially with a reduced DC that they have to save again. Which often doesn't work well on the ones you really want or need it to, It loses it's reactions and at maximum it's next turn. At the end of it's next turn guaranteed to recover and you are guaranteed to have to repeat the process the next turn if you want to try and keep it stunned. Which quickly becomes costly and yet so many players often fail to notice how much ki they sometimes waste trying to get stunning strikes to work. Even with a 3 ki cost, Half your Ki at level 6 yes, With just a little smart targeting and a Good Wis for a Strong DC in comparison the 4 elements monk can end up potentially paying for that high ki cost in as little as two turns of Hold Person being effective AND increased damage not only for themselves but for all melee build characters in their party for as long as they do fail their saves. Including that first turn which actually means increased damage above and beyond what Stunned from Stunning Strike can provide in the same amount of time for it's lower cost but more complicated usage. It's a mediumly high cost, medium risk, Potentially high reward move to do Hold Person and it will not always pay off but as often as not when it does it will pay off well in a variety of ways when given practical application and a bit of thought to it's usage.
People need to really stop acting that just because there is the potential to save every round that means that the enemy definitely will make the save. Just like characters can fail these things multiple turns in a row. The enemies can do the same.
Also as a side note. Like I said I need to do a bit of testing but I don't believe that it will be that disruptive if a 4 elements monk could potentially do a couple more FoB's or one or two more stunning blows or another patient defense compared to other monks from other subclasses. At low levels 1 or maybe 2 more attacks is not all that unbalancing since many classes can do this with things like feats, subclass features, and potentially other such things. And at high levels There is an abundance of Ki and trying to just use it for FoB is not going to be easy because that's a lot of rounds to go through and Ki is a resource returned on shot rest. So you'd consistently have to have one or multiple very long fights between rests and have that regularly for there to be a notable difference damage wise. So unless special circumstances are happening Kensei or the Drunken Master using his ability to hit up to 5 FoB blows for 1 ki are still potentially superior damage. And at most at max level it's 1 more Cone of Cold or Wall of Fire at 24 or 25 Ki at a level most people don't bother playing at. So really all it does is make some of those higher cost abilities a little more appealing to use or make using them at low level a little more appealing.
On your point of hold person I agree it can be a good option. The one problem is it can depend on initiative order for how effective it can be. If you cast hold person on the target and they are next in the initiative order then, yes, they waste their turn, which is good, but your party never gets to benefit if they then make the save. Stunning strike lasts until your turn so the party gets the advantage on attacks no matter the initiative order.
This is part of the core of my point. Hold Person against Stunning Strike, in a vacuum, is better. It inflicts a stronger condition, and can potentially keep them paralyzed for several rounds.
But, there are three major reasons Stunning Strike is nearly always beneficial: 1) Ki cost. At the cost of 1 ki, you can inflict stunned. That's compared to 3 ki to inflict paralyzed. So two more ki just to get crit hits on every melee attack. 2) Number of saving throws. Looking on a scope of one round (meaning until the Monk's next turn), at level five, a Monk can spend as many as 4 ki to force 4 saving throws. They only need the target to fail one of those saves to be subject to easy damage for an entire round ... including the Monk's own turn! If they fail the first save, then the Monk gets the advantage of attacking a stunned target for the rest of this turn and all of their next turn. OR they can attempt to stun more targets! Compared to Hold Person, the Monk can spend 3 ki to attempt to paralyze one humanoid. They will get two saves (one upon the Monk casting it, one on their turn) to break out of this before the Monk's next turn. So for Stunning Strike, we can inflict multiple saving throws and only need them to fail once. With Hold Person, we can inflict two saving throws and they need to fail them both in order for it to last even as long as Stunning Strike. 3) Creatures affected. Hold Person only affects humanoids. Stunning Strike affects all creatures. There are exactly three humanoid creatures in all of 5e with WIS <10 and CR >3, and all are from Ravnica. (I figure lower CR monsters are not worth targeting with Hold Person anyways.) That means for the vast majority of humanoids to fail two consecutive WIS throws, you're already talking about a 40% chance only.
And as much as CON might be the worst save to inflict on creatures, WIS is nearly as bad. Average CON save for all creatures is about 3.3, average WIS save for humanoids CR >3 is 2.9. So really, against the creatures affected, the save isn't even that much better. (Data found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10anA394CmxeLYTxuMYVnmmjiYLLedXfv6MBbpxEy2Kw/edit#gid=0)
The more I think about this, the more I'm realizing that even reducing cost to 1 ki for Hold Person might only make it on par with Stunning Strike.
I addressed the ki cost issue and the save issue. Not just in a vacuum but from practical play.
Also. Your thing about number of Humanoid creatures is factually and blatantly massively wrong. there are not just 3 humanoids that are low Wisdom. There are a ton of them. Also not sure what DC your basing things off of to get your 40%.
Many of these creatures either don't have great wisdom or don't have Proficiency in their Wisdom Saving throws. There are several of them that dont' have wis Saves higher than +3. This is something important to note. Many people actually make the mistake of thinking that save proficiencies are necessarily there or that they necessarily apply to wis but this is not true for many npc's if they are not given class levels and even more class levels of the right classes. Even some of the npc stat blocks that mimic some basic abilities of certain classes can be this way.
At level 6. A Wis Based monk will have a Save DC of 8+3(prof)+4(Wis) Giving them a Save DC of 15. If something has a +3 in their Wisdom Save then they must roll at least a 12. This means that there is a 60% chance of them failing. Not a 40% chance as mentioned (which requires a roll of 8 or higher). Even if we just scroll to CR 3 it doesn't look good for your comparison and your comparison is very overly narrow. I could point out the Githyanki Warrior who comes from the Monster Manual and is AC 17 but only has a wis save of 1 that is easily spottable on that list for example and the fact that it needs to roll a 14 to make the DC 15 save and thus is 70% likely to fail it's save and continue to be held for additional rounds if I wanted to hand pick examples to try and prove my point. Or I could do the Hobgoblin Captain who is also from the MOnster Manual and is Again AC 17 but has a wis save of +0 (which incidentally proves your claim about +0wis creatures only being in Ravnica most completely) which means they have a 75% chance of failing the roll if you face it at level 6. Or the Knight which is from the Basic Rules that is AC 18 with a Wis Save of +2 meaning that it needs to roll a 13 to make the save an thus has a 65% chance of failing. The Truth of the matter is that the idea that this is a save that is easily made if you have a good DC is a lie. These are all High AC, Decent hp enemies straight from their statblocks in your chosen range. Some of them have much higher con saves and some of them do not. But this shows that the potential gain from Hold person is actually a lot higher than your attempting to paint it. Even with your handchosen restrictions to try and paint it in a certain light.
But we're takling about level 6 characters. We need to talk about CR 6 creatures as well since they are appropriate level. There are 31 Humanoids listed purely as CR 6. Some of them are mimics of character classes, such as quick caster statblocks. This level is far more interesting in the fact that some creatures actually finally have save proficiencies, granted those seem to be mostly on specific NPC's in the database or class analogue's like the conjurer, and it's largely only the casters that have Wis saves better than their Con saves. A couple come out equal or higher without being such however (most notably the Githzerai Zerth that has multiple high saves). But most of these stop at a +4 even with proficiency on the save meaning that they still have to roll an 11 for the majority of the cases giving a 55% chance for them to fail the roll.
The TLDR is that the idea that Wis Saves presented as crippling or unable to be utilized and sure to fail is not correct and for a Properly built 4 elements monk the chance of actually getting more than one round is at least 55% even when a stat block has Wisdom Save Proficiency for level 6 challenges and often even higher. 40% chance of the enemy failing is fully and factually wrong on a well Built 4 elements monk with Wis Primary and Save DC in mind.
On your point of hold person I agree it can be a good option. The one problem is it can depend on initiative order for how effective it can be. If you cast hold person on the target and they are next in the initiative order then, yes, they waste their turn, which is good, but your party never gets to benefit if they then make the save. Stunning strike lasts until your turn so the party gets the advantage on attacks no matter the initiative order.
This is true to some extent. But unless you have really bad luck at initiative rolls or your DM is making their meatshields particularly fast The gap tends to be somewhat minimally problematic usually. Partly because the Monk tends to be one of the faster members of the party. But this is something that you do need to weigh in when your adapting your strategy to the current fight. Something you should always be doing with a monk anyway regardless of Subclass.
Remember, also, that things like Readied actions are a possibility in situations like this and then you can hold your Hold Person for the team member that goes right after that BBEG goes to take their turn or make their attack and then lock the enemy down for an entire turn that way. This can often be beneficial despite it's action economy cost and it's something that can be done without too big of a worry about positioning usually unlike Stunning Strike.
Honestly I genuinely just really like the monk optional features as a suite of abilities in Tasha's. None of them feel like game changers but they really kind of round out the Monk's kit. Even just being able to use Quickened Healing to dump extra ki during a short rest feels pretty nice. Everyone's already talked about ki-fueled attack and how nice it is and I like having the option to used focused aim to turn a miss into a hit, even if it doesn't come up all that often.
Dedicated Weapon is probably my least favorite, but even that I can see having some appeal for allowing races with natural proficiencies to be able to actually leverage their weapons, or allowing a few gimmicks with weapon specialization feats, which is cool. IDK my last monk was a kensei so I didn't really think about this feature much.
It also helps (outside a few things you can do with ki-fueled attack) that none of them feel like huge game-changers of is a DM doesn't want to allow them I don't feel like I've lost something major either.
This is part of the core of my point. Hold Person against Stunning Strike, in a vacuum, is better. It inflicts a stronger condition, and can potentially keep them paralyzed for several rounds.
But, there are three major reasons Stunning Strike is nearly always beneficial: 1) Ki cost. At the cost of 1 ki, you can inflict stunned. That's compared to 3 ki to inflict paralyzed. So two more ki just to get crit hits on every melee attack. 2) Number of saving throws. Looking on a scope of one round (meaning until the Monk's next turn), at level five, a Monk can spend as many as 4 ki to force 4 saving throws. They only need the target to fail one of those saves to be subject to easy damage for an entire round ... including the Monk's own turn! If they fail the first save, then the Monk gets the advantage of attacking a stunned target for the rest of this turn and all of their next turn. OR they can attempt to stun more targets! Compared to Hold Person, the Monk can spend 3 ki to attempt to paralyze one humanoid. They will get two saves (one upon the Monk casting it, one on their turn) to break out of this before the Monk's next turn. So for Stunning Strike, we can inflict multiple saving throws and only need them to fail once. With Hold Person, we can inflict two saving throws and they need to fail them both in order for it to last even as long as Stunning Strike. 3) Creatures affected. Hold Person only affects humanoids. Stunning Strike affects all creatures. There are exactly three humanoid creatures in all of 5e with WIS <10 and CR >3, and all are from Ravnica. (I figure lower CR monsters are not worth targeting with Hold Person anyways.) That means for the vast majority of humanoids to fail two consecutive WIS throws, you're already talking about a 40% chance only.
And as much as CON might be the worst save to inflict on creatures, WIS is nearly as bad. Average CON save for all creatures is about 3.3, average WIS save for humanoids CR >3 is 2.9. So really, against the creatures affected, the save isn't even that much better. (Data found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10anA394CmxeLYTxuMYVnmmjiYLLedXfv6MBbpxEy2Kw/edit#gid=0)
The more I think about this, the more I'm realizing that even reducing cost to 1 ki for Hold Person might only make it on par with Stunning Strike.
I addressed the ki cost issue and the save issue. Not just in a vacuum but from practical play.
Also. Your thing about number of Humanoid creatures is factually and blatantly massively wrong. there are not just 3 humanoids that are low Wisdom. There are a ton of them. Also not sure what DC your basing things off of to get your 40%.
Many of these creatures either don't have great wisdom or don't have Proficiency in their Wisdom Saving throws. There are several of them that dont' have wis Saves higher than +3. This is something important to note. Many people actually make the mistake of thinking that save proficiencies are necessarily there or that they necessarily apply to wis but this is not true for many npc's if they are not given class levels and even more class levels of the right classes. Even some of the npc stat blocks that mimic some basic abilities of certain classes can be this way.
At level 6. A Wis Based monk will have a Save DC of 8+3(prof)+4(Wis) Giving them a Save DC of 15. If something has a +3 in their Wisdom Save then they must roll at least a 12. This means that there is a 60% chance of them failing. Not a 40% chance as mentioned (which requires a roll of 8 or higher). Even if we just scroll to CR 3 it doesn't look good for your comparison and your comparison is very overly narrow. I could point out the Githyanki Warrior who comes from the Monster Manual and is AC 17 but only has a wis save of 1 that is easily spottable on that list for example and the fact that it needs to roll a 14 to make the DC 15 save and thus is 70% likely to fail it's save and continue to be held for additional rounds if I wanted to hand pick examples to try and prove my point. Or I could do the Hobgoblin Captain who is also from the MOnster Manual and is Again AC 17 but has a wis save of +0 (which incidentally proves your claim about +0wis creatures only being in Ravnica most completely) which means they have a 75% chance of failing the roll if you face it at level 6. Or the Knight which is from the Basic Rules that is AC 18 with a Wis Save of +2 meaning that it needs to roll a 13 to make the save an thus has a 65% chance of failing. The Truth of the matter is that the idea that this is a save that is easily made if you have a good DC is a lie. These are all High AC, Decent hp enemies straight from their statblocks in your chosen range. Some of them have much higher con saves and some of them do not. But this shows that the potential gain from Hold person is actually a lot higher than your attempting to paint it. Even with your handchosen restrictions to try and paint it in a certain light.
But we're takling about level 6 characters. We need to talk about CR 6 creatures as well since they are appropriate level. There are 31 Humanoids listed purely as CR 6. Some of them are mimics of character classes, such as quick caster statblocks. This level is far more interesting in the fact that some creatures actually finally have save proficiencies, granted those seem to be mostly on specific NPC's in the database or class analogue's like the conjurer, and it's largely only the casters that have Wis saves better than their Con saves. A couple come out equal or higher without being such however (most notably the Githzerai Zerth that has multiple high saves). But most of these stop at a +4 even with proficiency on the save meaning that they still have to roll an 11 for the majority of the cases giving a 55% chance for them to fail the roll.
The TLDR is that the idea that Wis Saves presented as crippling or unable to be utilized and sure to fail is not correct and for a Properly built 4 elements monk the chance of actually getting more than one round is at least 55% even when a stat block has Wisdom Save Proficiency for level 6 challenges and often even higher. 40% chance of the enemy failing is fully and factually wrong on a well Built 4 elements monk with Wis Primary and Save DC in mind.
What I said: "There are exactly three humanoid creatures in all of 5e with WIS <10 and CR >3, and all are from Ravnica. (I figure lower CR monsters are not worth targeting with Hold Person anyways.) That means for the vast majority of humanoids to fail two consecutive WIS throws, you're already talking about a 40% chance only."
The one thing I left out was save DC, which I was measuring against DC 14 (8 + 3 + 3, figuring most Monks are going to push max DEX first).
I stated WIS <10, as in, a reduction to WIS saving throws. You somehow took that to mean WIS of 0. I stated CR >3, figuring that using Hold Person against a minion of CR 3 or less is probably a moot point, and the better bet is to save your ki for more useful enemies. Yet you included creatures under CR 3 in your analysis, it looks like.
Again, the WHOLE POINT is that Hold Person requires TWO saves for it to last as long as a single Stunning Strike (once on the Monk's turn, once again on the paralyzed creature's turn). Using an average (CR >3) humanoid's WIS bonus to saves, which is just about +3, and a DC 15 to align with your numbers, that means that creature will fail the save on 55% of rolls (11 or below). But that only paralyzes them until their next turn -- they get a save at the end of their turn, and the odds that they fail BOTH saving throws (55% * 55%) is only 30%.
(This is different from my initial numbers, which were assuming +0 WIS save, DC 14. That means 65% failure on one save, and 42.25% chance of failing BOTH saves. I rounded down to 40%, figuring DC 14 is likely the minimum barrier for DC for a level five monk. If we use +0 against DC 15, the odds of failing twice are 49%.)
So, to clarify what this all means before we hit the Stunning Strike numbers: Hold Person will only successfully last for an entire round around 30-49% of the time (variance due to changing DC and WIS saves). In other words: The Monk who paralyzed a single enemy is going to have a <50% chance to take advantage of that effect on their next turn.
Let's compare this with CON saves against Stunning Strike, and for comparison's sake let's say we are willing to spend the same amount of ki attempting to stun the enemy (so once on each of our attack actions, then the unarmed strike from martial arts). It gets complicated by ability to hit. Here's the assumptions I'll make: CR >3, Monk DEX +4. Therefore that translates to an average 17 AC to hit, and +7 to hit. So our Monk has a 55% to hit and therefore proc Stunning Strike.
Again, DC 15 to save, and average creature CON saves are about 3.3 (you can find this quickly with a web search). Let's round up, for sake of argument, to +4 to these CON saves, meaning a monster is straight 50/50 to succeed their Stunning Strike save.
The math here gets a little wonky. Here's what we will do: look at each attack, one by one, to figure out the odds that our target doesn't get stunned on the Monk's turn. First attack: 55% to hit alongside 50% chance to stun means that 27.5% of the time we stun on our first swing. Second attack: If we missed or failed to stun, same numbers here ... 27.5% of the remaining instances (aka the 72.5% of times when we failed to stun before) the creature gets stunned, so there's a 19.9% chance we stun on our second turn, and a 47.4% chance we have stunned our target after our attack action. Third (martial arts) attack: Same numbers again, but this time against 52.5% chance our target isn't already stunned. That same 27.5% to stun of 52.5% of scenarios is another 14.4% chance that we finally stun on our bonus action attack. Grand total: A monk with +7 to attack rolls will successfully stun a creature with 17 AC and +4 CON saves about 62% of the time, assuming we are willing to spend 3 ki to do so.
So to summarize: Same cost (3ki), but with Hold Person we have somewhere between a 30-49% chance of paralyzing an enemy until the Monk's following turn. With Stunning Strike, we have a 62% chance of stunning the enemy until the Monk's following turn. And there's a solid chance that we could stun with fewer ki spent, meaning we either conserve ki or we can attempt to stun even more creatures on our turn.
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You're right, that would be an incredible combo! ... because it would absolutely destroy the action economy.
Drunken Master already has a great way to break that action economy as well -- it is one of the only ways to get a free method to use a second action on your turn via FOB. Disengage alongside the bonus to movement speed (and Unarmored Movement) should arguably work better than Dodge for you... just kite your enemies around the battlefield.
The healing is not great, but it is better than nothing, and essentially gives you a free Hit Dice if you have extra ki before a short rest.
I'm among the fans of Four Elements that thought it only needed a minor fix, and this alone helps balance it a little bit more. (Next, just change the ki cost for abilities to be lighter -- reduce everything by 1 ki and it's immediately a slightly above average subclass.)
I think a 1 Ki reduction in cost (assuming you mean only for 2 Ki or higher?) would be too much; I think part of the intention of the cost is to make you think twice about spending Ki on other things in the same turn, e.g- casting and using Patient Defence in a single turn.
This is an issue with other Monk sub-classes that cast as well, though less so since they don't rely upon it as much. I think a better fix would be to give spell-casting Monks a pool of additional Ki that can only be spent on spells; for most it would be 1 every four levels (20+5 total), whereas for Way of the Four Elements it would maybe be 1 every two levels (20+10 total). This gives you extra Ki to burn on your spell-casting so effectively reduces the cost, but not by as much.
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The proposed fix that I'm attempting to find time to test is actually Slightly more Ki. Basically one more Ki point for each Tier of play. They can be gained the same time the new elemental disciplines are gotten and at level 20 if you subscribe to the 5 tier way of thinking and making max level the last tier. Which is basically what your describing. So at level 3 they'd get one extra ki for their starting in the class, At 6 they'd have a total of 2 extra. At 11 a total of 3 extra Ki. all the way up to 4 or 5. And I don't see reason to restrict these ki to elemental Disciplines either because I don't think it will make a dramatic power difference. I just think it will lessen the resource management requirements. They really do not need a massive chunk of extra ki to be effective. Just small gains at certain levels would still be big for them and make quite the little effect on them.
Reducing the Ki costs of all elemental disciplines that most people don't take into effect or don't realize is happening because they take the spells and compare them against Wizards and Sorcerer's and Warlocks instead of EK's and Rangers and Arcane Tricksters and the like in power. Which all get level 3 spells such as firball all in roughly the same 4 level range overall which is part of their balance. It also affects the upcasting of abilities which most people don't even bother to consider and how that might affect them. All they see is more and cheaper fireball and forget about the rest.
Except that it doesn't actually benefit all monks. The more spell caster in nature the monk gets, particularly if they get ways to attack saves instead, and the higher cost the regular mechanical loop the player has the less useful Spending a bunch of Ki in Focused Aim actually is. That is something that is often over looked when it comes to focused Aim. And Kensei really are not any further ahead in the game than other Monk subclasses. Except for perhaps as an Archer. It's not a significant gain on melee builds to be able to make a third weapon attack. It just feels better to those people that think that the Kensei makes too many unarmed attacks with their weapon focus.
My reasoning on that is so that other Monk sub-classes don't feel like they're being cheated; the spell-casters need a bit more Ki to encourage more use of their spell-casting abilities (what makes their sub-class unique), but if you make it just regular Ki points then you could end up with a Way of the Four Elements Monk being able to outperform every other Monk in using Flurry of Blows, or Patient Defence etc. over a prolonged period, which doesn't feel right at all, as all Monks should have the same access to those.
The extra magic only pool means you could play a Four Elements Monk exactly as you might any other Monk, plus spending only the extra Ki for the odd spell here or there, so like other Monks you end up with roughly the same balance of core Monk + extra features that everyone else has. But you also retain the ability to pour your regular Ki points into casting as well (sacrificing core Monk features to fuel more Four Elements abilities instead).
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I always said 4E monk should get pact slots that progress like the Profane Soul Bloodhunter does.
2 relatively low level spells per short rest but you don't have to use Ki to cast them
That would be an interesting alternative. Would you still allow Ki for casting as well, i.e- the slots would be your free, guaranteed castings, and you spend Ki if you need more? Since Profane Soul gets cantrips as well.
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That would be a good approach I think. That way if you did want some extra oofmph you could spend ki to get it. It also mirrors the PB uses approach somewhat from Dragon UA.
I think you are thinking of Ki Fueled Strike.
Focused Aim allows you to add Ki points to your attack roll after the fact, turning potential misses into hits. I might be wrong but I believe this effects all attack roles, helping even Sun Soul and 4M monks. Its definitely a banger!
I don't think you need to get that complicated with it.
All of these feel like adding additional complexity and resource management when the Monk already is VERY focused on resource management thanks to ki.
Personally, I say just make it simple: Reduce elemental discipline cost by 1 ki each. It's so simple and elegant of a solution that it should be implemented at every table to make Four Elements way more playable. It's still not a great subclass due to getting so little each time they get more disciplines -- only five known through level 20 (giving 2 disciplines per level, and/or better cantrips would help solve this), but it at least makes choosing between Water Whip or Hold Person and Stunning Strike (or Focused Aim) a real decision. Especially at low levels, ki is a super limiting factor ... at levels 3-5 you can do most of the elemental disciplines only twice per short rest, and then you give up on just about all of the rest of what makes Monks fun.
Think about it:
Level 3: Water Whip/Unbroken Air/Four Thunders (3/4 best choices at this level) require 2/3 ki to be activated, and then you only get one chance to utilize the core ki abilities. I'd argue Fangs of the Fire Snake (the other best choice) is only useful if you use it for the 2 ki cost option as well, though that's open for debate.
Level 4: Similar issue, but now we can use all those things twice, but then we entirely forgo our core ki abilities.
Level 5: Stunning Strike and Focused Aim are online. Stunning Strike, at 1 ki cost, is more useful than these ED options and costs half as much. It's a no-brainer. At level five you shouldn't use ED options except in specific situations, such as inability to get into melee.
Level 6: You want Hold Person? Okay ... it costs 3 ki. Against Stunning Strike, which is already a low-level Hold Person, which costs only two. It's a slightly better saving throw (WIS instead of CON) and inflicts a slightly better condition (paralyzed is stunned except melee hits are autocrits) and can last longer (or shorter, as the paralyzed creature repeats the save on its turn). It's a no-brainer to go with Stunning Strike there ... especially when you can now do it three times in one turn anyways, if you really need something stunned. And you're guaranteed to benefit from it on your next turn, assuming it goes through.
If Hold Person costs two ki? Then there's a choice, in my opinion. I'd still probably defer to Stunning Strike (I'd rather take Shatter at level six, but that's just me) most of the time, but it is at least a choice.
Don't overthink it. They don't need anything additional aside from ki reduction. Silly to justify giving more ki to them, when reducing cost is more elegant and accomplishes the same thing.
Yeah that is the other option I have heard and it works for me as well.
I think the pact slots is actually fairly simple once you get the table in place but I can see this way too.
I am not thinking Ki Fueled strike. I said it exactly as I meant it. There are things where it does not help. Most 4Elements monks if they are wisdom based do not get a major bonus out of spending ki for their physical attacks. It's just another potentially high priced expenditure where they already have a lot and The ki spent making sure attacks hit could just as easily be used in abilities that don't use attack rolls to begin with and instead use Saving Throws, not to mention those abilities still do half damage even if they save and often have other rider effects as well. This makes something like Focused Aim just another high cost liability instead of a vastly useful power. Sun soul Monks to an extent have the same problem.
You've actually stopped half way through on thinking it.
First of all to note. Ki is a short rest recharge. All of it. Not some of it. All of it. This actually causes a lot of hidden power in the monk and makes high costs not as high as they wuold be if it was a long rest mechanic. Even the very low cost subclasses would be painfully hurting if Ki was long rest and the middle ground ones would be basically crippled from costs, not just the 4 elements monk. This gives the monk a lot of hidden power so keep that in mind as I continue on because I might not always mention it but I will allude to certain comparisons to other classes while trying to stay focused purely on the monk. So what I say the monk can do may actually be double or triple what I mention when compared to an outside class, It's something almost always overlooked when making such comparisons but I'm going to try to limit myself away from long class comparisons if I can help it.
With that out of the way...
Just lowering costs by one ki has a nasty side affect. A decent sized power jump. Both in spam-ability of somewhat powerful abilities (particularly at low level) and in both immediate and higher upscale-ability. Meaning they can basically cast some things at effectively 5th or even 6th level or potentially many more times. This means that it's getting above and beyond other partial casters as well as mixing it with more castings when the 4 elements monk can already cast many of it's abilities more than partial casters can actually do with equivalent spells in spell slots.
Lowering the Ki by one in comparison to a little more Ki is actually far more unbalancing in comparison. Just at level 3 with something like Water Whip or Unbroken air. you turn an ability you can use 1 time into an ability that you can use 3 times and/or make it so they do even more damage than other things at this level. That is big considering these abilities already do average damage comparable to all 3 of your unarmed strikes and moves people around or knocks them prone when used purely by the book without lowered costs. Giving a vast improvement and by level 6 your making similar jumps in abilities gained at that level. And again at 11th level. People make remarks about how getting fireball at 11th level is weak. But we're talking about half or 1/3rd casters here. This is the range where they would get fireball because they have other abilities like martial prowess to rely on as well. Where others in this range can do say 1 fireball or maybe squeeze out 2. You'd be giving the 4 elements monk 3 fireballs off the bat (4 at 12) but also immediately upon getting to level 11 they can automatically cast 2 of those at 4th level spells and they can do the third one as a 4th level fireball by 12. Instead of the 2 going into 3 that they do with the costs from the book currently. Yes giving them 3 more ki by 11th level would mean the potential for a third fireball but you still don't get the upcasting potential that lowering all the ki costs creates.
Also what are you considering 2 cost for Fangs of the Fire snake? 1 to activate it and a single hit that has increased damage? Because fangs of the Fire Snake costs 1ki to simply use to change to fire damage and gain you reach. Additional ki are 1 hit per attack thta you increase the damage of for a total max of 5, which is technically 6 because to use all 5 you need to use FoB as well.
The other things you list when you get them at level 3 are all 2 ki. There is no three ki cost to them. you can't start upcasting these things until level 5. Then you can start spending 3 ki in them if you wish. But they are a choice to be made and they can be quite valuable when you make them. Particularly at low level. Average Damage on something like Unbroken Air or Water whip is fairly strong at level 3. It's an average damage of 15 and with benefits like knocking things prone or pulling targets towards you to do things like allow your group to be able to beat on them is very strong once you use it practically and not just stare at the numbers in a white room. Also Regular monks are going to quickly run out of Ki anyway no matter what they spend it on. Whether they choose to use it on core monk things or subclass things. It's just as draining for something like the Shadow Monk to use 1 of it's spells at level three and they don't get the advantage of doing damage with theirs. Level 4 just starts to slowly open things up more and same for 5 and even for 6.
Your no brainer about stunning strike is also wrong. Stunning Strike costs 1 ki. But it has some caveats...It only lasts a single turn and then you have to repeat it, You have to land an attack to even try to use it and they still get to make a save even when you do attach it to an attack so it may cost you multiple ki to just stun somebody for a single turn. While your taking a little bit of a gamble with Hold Person. It's potential to last longer, it's better status condition which benefits you and other melee's for doing more damage, Can quickly pay back the ki that other monks are wasting every turn trying to keep something stunned which Hold Person is basically doing anyway. Stunning strike is not the no brainer choice it's made out to be even for a 4 elements monk that is going to likely be better at getting stunning strike to be effective in the first place if they are wisdom based. Partially because it can be used on enemies that it's just a waste to try stunning strike on, despite the fact that many monks are wiling to throw away ki trying anyway.
People want to act like the fact that they get to make a Save from Hold Person at the END of each of their turns as some kind of death knell about how bad hold person is. But here's the cold reality comparison. With Hold Person You cast the affect (hopefully picking one that isn't super strong in Wis saves like a mage or a BBEG high HP, High Armor threat) and it rolls the save. If it fails it's paralyzed and then at the END of it's turn it tries to make a save. But it's turn is completely wasted and it didn't get to use Reactions or anything during that time. Should it fail the save again. it goes through all of this for another turn. And this can happen up to 10 times. Stunning Strike on the other hand. You have to roll to hit your target and assuming you hit, you have to spend a ki to stunning strike and get it to fail it's save, if you don't you have to manage to hit it yet again and spend a second Ki to try stunning strike again and potentially may have to try a third or a 4th time for yet more ki and even possibly a ki for FoB, All potentially with a reduced DC that they have to save again. Which often doesn't work well on the ones you really want or need it to, It loses it's reactions and at maximum it's next turn. At the end of it's next turn guaranteed to recover and you are guaranteed to have to repeat the process the next turn if you want to try and keep it stunned. Which quickly becomes costly and yet so many players often fail to notice how much ki they sometimes waste trying to get stunning strikes to work. Even with a 3 ki cost, Half your Ki at level 6 yes, With just a little smart targeting and a Good Wis for a Strong DC in comparison the 4 elements monk can end up potentially paying for that high ki cost in as little as two turns of Hold Person being effective AND increased damage not only for themselves but for all melee build characters in their party for as long as they do fail their saves. Including that first turn which actually means increased damage above and beyond what Stunned from Stunning Strike can provide in the same amount of time for it's lower cost but more complicated usage. It's a mediumly high cost, medium risk, Potentially high reward move to do Hold Person and it will not always pay off but as often as not when it does it will pay off well in a variety of ways when given practical application and a bit of thought to it's usage.
People need to really stop acting that just because there is the potential to save every round that means that the enemy definitely will make the save. Just like characters can fail these things multiple turns in a row. The enemies can do the same.
Also as a side note. Like I said I need to do a bit of testing but I don't believe that it will be that disruptive if a 4 elements monk could potentially do a couple more FoB's or one or two more stunning blows or another patient defense compared to other monks from other subclasses. At low levels 1 or maybe 2 more attacks is not all that unbalancing since many classes can do this with things like feats, subclass features, and potentially other such things. And at high levels There is an abundance of Ki and trying to just use it for FoB is not going to be easy because that's a lot of rounds to go through and Ki is a resource returned on shot rest. So you'd consistently have to have one or multiple very long fights between rests and have that regularly for there to be a notable difference damage wise. So unless special circumstances are happening Kensei or the Drunken Master using his ability to hit up to 5 FoB blows for 1 ki are still potentially superior damage. And at most at max level it's 1 more Cone of Cold or Wall of Fire at 24 or 25 Ki at a level most people don't bother playing at. So really all it does is make some of those higher cost abilities a little more appealing to use or make using them at low level a little more appealing.
Ah I see what you mean. Classes that are forced to focus on Wisdom (4E and SS) might feel a bit restricted. That being said Dex is a major requirement for the monk regardless and it should always be equal to if not higher than Wis regardless. And there will be times when these monks might be caught in a melee situation. There is literally no downside to spending the Ki point to ensure the hit and getting out of the situation. Of course its up to the player if they want to do it so its not a requirement. Just a little added bonus in times of emergency.
That being said, using Ki to increase your save DC would be great for all monks so I'm with you there.
On your point of hold person I agree it can be a good option. The one problem is it can depend on initiative order for how effective it can be. If you cast hold person on the target and they are next in the initiative order then, yes, they waste their turn, which is good, but your party never gets to benefit if they then make the save. Stunning strike lasts until your turn so the party gets the advantage on attacks no matter the initiative order.
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This is part of the core of my point. Hold Person against Stunning Strike, in a vacuum, is better. It inflicts a stronger condition, and can potentially keep them paralyzed for several rounds.
But, there are three major reasons Stunning Strike is nearly always beneficial:
1) Ki cost. At the cost of 1 ki, you can inflict stunned. That's compared to 3 ki to inflict paralyzed. So two more ki just to get crit hits on every melee attack.
2) Number of saving throws. Looking on a scope of one round (meaning until the Monk's next turn), at level five, a Monk can spend as many as 4 ki to force 4 saving throws. They only need the target to fail one of those saves to be subject to easy damage for an entire round ... including the Monk's own turn! If they fail the first save, then the Monk gets the advantage of attacking a stunned target for the rest of this turn and all of their next turn. OR they can attempt to stun more targets! Compared to Hold Person, the Monk can spend 3 ki to attempt to paralyze one humanoid. They will get two saves (one upon the Monk casting it, one on their turn) to break out of this before the Monk's next turn. So for Stunning Strike, we can inflict multiple saving throws and only need them to fail once. With Hold Person, we can inflict two saving throws and they need to fail them both in order for it to last even as long as Stunning Strike.
3) Creatures affected. Hold Person only affects humanoids. Stunning Strike affects all creatures. There are exactly three humanoid creatures in all of 5e with WIS <10 and CR >3, and all are from Ravnica. (I figure lower CR monsters are not worth targeting with Hold Person anyways.) That means for the vast majority of humanoids to fail two consecutive WIS throws, you're already talking about a 40% chance only.
And as much as CON might be the worst save to inflict on creatures, WIS is nearly as bad. Average CON save for all creatures is about 3.3, average WIS save for humanoids CR >3 is 2.9. So really, against the creatures affected, the save isn't even that much better. (Data found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10anA394CmxeLYTxuMYVnmmjiYLLedXfv6MBbpxEy2Kw/edit#gid=0)
The more I think about this, the more I'm realizing that even reducing cost to 1 ki for Hold Person might only make it on par with Stunning Strike.
I addressed the ki cost issue and the save issue. Not just in a vacuum but from practical play.
Also. Your thing about number of Humanoid creatures is factually and blatantly massively wrong. there are not just 3 humanoids that are low Wisdom. There are a ton of them. Also not sure what DC your basing things off of to get your 40%.
But let's look at a few numbers for your limited creatures affected complaint. First of all. Just from CR 3 and below. There are 20 pages. of enemies just on DnDBeyonds database. https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=0&filter-type=11&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=7&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-is-mythic=&filter-has-lair=
Many of these creatures either don't have great wisdom or don't have Proficiency in their Wisdom Saving throws. There are several of them that dont' have wis Saves higher than +3. This is something important to note. Many people actually make the mistake of thinking that save proficiencies are necessarily there or that they necessarily apply to wis but this is not true for many npc's if they are not given class levels and even more class levels of the right classes. Even some of the npc stat blocks that mimic some basic abilities of certain classes can be this way.
At level 6. A Wis Based monk will have a Save DC of 8+3(prof)+4(Wis) Giving them a Save DC of 15. If something has a +3 in their Wisdom Save then they must roll at least a 12. This means that there is a 60% chance of them failing. Not a 40% chance as mentioned (which requires a roll of 8 or higher). Even if we just scroll to CR 3 it doesn't look good for your comparison and your comparison is very overly narrow. I could point out the Githyanki Warrior who comes from the Monster Manual and is AC 17 but only has a wis save of 1 that is easily spottable on that list for example and the fact that it needs to roll a 14 to make the DC 15 save and thus is 70% likely to fail it's save and continue to be held for additional rounds if I wanted to hand pick examples to try and prove my point. Or I could do the Hobgoblin Captain who is also from the MOnster Manual and is Again AC 17 but has a wis save of +0 (which incidentally proves your claim about +0wis creatures only being in Ravnica most completely) which means they have a 75% chance of failing the roll if you face it at level 6. Or the Knight which is from the Basic Rules that is AC 18 with a Wis Save of +2 meaning that it needs to roll a 13 to make the save an thus has a 65% chance of failing. The Truth of the matter is that the idea that this is a save that is easily made if you have a good DC is a lie. These are all High AC, Decent hp enemies straight from their statblocks in your chosen range. Some of them have much higher con saves and some of them do not. But this shows that the potential gain from Hold person is actually a lot higher than your attempting to paint it. Even with your handchosen restrictions to try and paint it in a certain light.
But we're takling about level 6 characters. We need to talk about CR 6 creatures as well since they are appropriate level. There are 31 Humanoids listed purely as CR 6. Some of them are mimics of character classes, such as quick caster statblocks. This level is far more interesting in the fact that some creatures actually finally have save proficiencies, granted those seem to be mostly on specific NPC's in the database or class analogue's like the conjurer, and it's largely only the casters that have Wis saves better than their Con saves. A couple come out equal or higher without being such however (most notably the Githzerai Zerth that has multiple high saves). But most of these stop at a +4 even with proficiency on the save meaning that they still have to roll an 11 for the majority of the cases giving a 55% chance for them to fail the roll.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-cr-max=10&filter-cr-min=10&filter-search=&filter-type=0&filter-type=11
The TLDR is that the idea that Wis Saves presented as crippling or unable to be utilized and sure to fail is not correct and for a Properly built 4 elements monk the chance of actually getting more than one round is at least 55% even when a stat block has Wisdom Save Proficiency for level 6 challenges and often even higher. 40% chance of the enemy failing is fully and factually wrong on a well Built 4 elements monk with Wis Primary and Save DC in mind.
This is true to some extent. But unless you have really bad luck at initiative rolls or your DM is making their meatshields particularly fast The gap tends to be somewhat minimally problematic usually. Partly because the Monk tends to be one of the faster members of the party. But this is something that you do need to weigh in when your adapting your strategy to the current fight. Something you should always be doing with a monk anyway regardless of Subclass.
Remember, also, that things like Readied actions are a possibility in situations like this and then you can hold your Hold Person for the team member that goes right after that BBEG goes to take their turn or make their attack and then lock the enemy down for an entire turn that way. This can often be beneficial despite it's action economy cost and it's something that can be done without too big of a worry about positioning usually unlike Stunning Strike.
Honestly I genuinely just really like the monk optional features as a suite of abilities in Tasha's. None of them feel like game changers but they really kind of round out the Monk's kit. Even just being able to use Quickened Healing to dump extra ki during a short rest feels pretty nice. Everyone's already talked about ki-fueled attack and how nice it is and I like having the option to used focused aim to turn a miss into a hit, even if it doesn't come up all that often.
Dedicated Weapon is probably my least favorite, but even that I can see having some appeal for allowing races with natural proficiencies to be able to actually leverage their weapons, or allowing a few gimmicks with weapon specialization feats, which is cool. IDK my last monk was a kensei so I didn't really think about this feature much.
It also helps (outside a few things you can do with ki-fueled attack) that none of them feel like huge game-changers of is a DM doesn't want to allow them I don't feel like I've lost something major either.
What I said:
"There are exactly three humanoid creatures in all of 5e with WIS <10 and CR >3, and all are from Ravnica. (I figure lower CR monsters are not worth targeting with Hold Person anyways.) That means for the vast majority of humanoids to fail two consecutive WIS throws, you're already talking about a 40% chance only."
The one thing I left out was save DC, which I was measuring against DC 14 (8 + 3 + 3, figuring most Monks are going to push max DEX first).
I stated WIS <10, as in, a reduction to WIS saving throws. You somehow took that to mean WIS of 0. I stated CR >3, figuring that using Hold Person against a minion of CR 3 or less is probably a moot point, and the better bet is to save your ki for more useful enemies. Yet you included creatures under CR 3 in your analysis, it looks like.
Again, the WHOLE POINT is that Hold Person requires TWO saves for it to last as long as a single Stunning Strike (once on the Monk's turn, once again on the paralyzed creature's turn). Using an average (CR >3) humanoid's WIS bonus to saves, which is just about +3, and a DC 15 to align with your numbers, that means that creature will fail the save on 55% of rolls (11 or below). But that only paralyzes them until their next turn -- they get a save at the end of their turn, and the odds that they fail BOTH saving throws (55% * 55%) is only 30%.
(This is different from my initial numbers, which were assuming +0 WIS save, DC 14. That means 65% failure on one save, and 42.25% chance of failing BOTH saves. I rounded down to 40%, figuring DC 14 is likely the minimum barrier for DC for a level five monk. If we use +0 against DC 15, the odds of failing twice are 49%.)
So, to clarify what this all means before we hit the Stunning Strike numbers: Hold Person will only successfully last for an entire round around 30-49% of the time (variance due to changing DC and WIS saves). In other words: The Monk who paralyzed a single enemy is going to have a <50% chance to take advantage of that effect on their next turn.
Let's compare this with CON saves against Stunning Strike, and for comparison's sake let's say we are willing to spend the same amount of ki attempting to stun the enemy (so once on each of our attack actions, then the unarmed strike from martial arts). It gets complicated by ability to hit. Here's the assumptions I'll make: CR >3, Monk DEX +4. Therefore that translates to an average 17 AC to hit, and +7 to hit. So our Monk has a 55% to hit and therefore proc Stunning Strike.
Again, DC 15 to save, and average creature CON saves are about 3.3 (you can find this quickly with a web search). Let's round up, for sake of argument, to +4 to these CON saves, meaning a monster is straight 50/50 to succeed their Stunning Strike save.
The math here gets a little wonky. Here's what we will do: look at each attack, one by one, to figure out the odds that our target doesn't get stunned on the Monk's turn.
First attack: 55% to hit alongside 50% chance to stun means that 27.5% of the time we stun on our first swing.
Second attack: If we missed or failed to stun, same numbers here ... 27.5% of the remaining instances (aka the 72.5% of times when we failed to stun before) the creature gets stunned, so there's a 19.9% chance we stun on our second turn, and a 47.4% chance we have stunned our target after our attack action.
Third (martial arts) attack: Same numbers again, but this time against 52.5% chance our target isn't already stunned. That same 27.5% to stun of 52.5% of scenarios is another 14.4% chance that we finally stun on our bonus action attack.
Grand total: A monk with +7 to attack rolls will successfully stun a creature with 17 AC and +4 CON saves about 62% of the time, assuming we are willing to spend 3 ki to do so.
So to summarize: Same cost (3ki), but with Hold Person we have somewhere between a 30-49% chance of paralyzing an enemy until the Monk's following turn. With Stunning Strike, we have a 62% chance of stunning the enemy until the Monk's following turn. And there's a solid chance that we could stun with fewer ki spent, meaning we either conserve ki or we can attempt to stun even more creatures on our turn.