Not only is using specific monk subclasses to try and bolster the point disingenuous but it doesn't actually help. If monk subclasses can be discussed then so can subclasses for every other class.
The barbarian with a tinge of MADness? Yeah now let's talk about the Totem Warrior Barbarian and how it doesn't care about its AC at all.
Or the Abjuration and Bladesinger wizards that have excellent defensive features on top of Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell and Dispel Magic.
Or the Shillelagh Beastmaster Ranger that has everything key off of wisdom.
Any way you try and paint the picture the Monk comes out looking pretty darn bad. Its base chassis is heavily flawed and most of the subclasses do very little to solve it.
Part of a Paladin's perceived power is actually the ease with which they can be built to use that power and sustain damage to keep using that power. They were seen as a lot less viable in previous editions when they were actually as MAD as monks were. Often needing 3 or 4 stats just to be functional just like the monk because of the way things were spread out and the fact that dexterity still made a great difference even with Heavy Armor. But with Spell casting being merged with their Charisma and Dexterity being taken out of the equation And getting an Aura that can dramatically up their Saves to imitate still having high scores in stats that they no longer need them in. They just aren't the MAD beasts that they used to be that used to actually restrict them getting played even more than the alignment restriction did.
Monks on the other hand used to need a similar array of stats as the Paladin did for the most part and all they have had it lowered by is they don't need strength to make a viable build anymore. Dex and Wis are still absolute requirements. They can't go without Con because they've lost all ability to heal themselves without going into a specific subclass, with 2 of the 3 subclasses in the PHB being some of the easiest ones to play out of all of their options and their Eventual immunity to magic and strong saving throws has been paired back to being just saving throws and not something you get until the third tier of play which leaves them relying almost purely on the AC they can gain from maxing out 2 stats because they can't just put on higher ac, relying on evasion for hopes of taking no damage, or spending Ki to partially protect themselves from physical blows while giving up some of their offensive capability to do so (which they didn't actually have to do in previous versions at least). And then Monks get called underpowered because they aren't doing single blow damage in the ranges of other classes even though they are potentially capable of similar if not better damage if you build them right.
My 4 Elements monk that I have currently in play is a danger because of clever building and a lot of effort to maximize both of his Dexterity and Wisdom as well as find various means to increase his ability to land hits in other ways so that he is a consistent performer. Which can be done but isn't always the easiest. But It's still taking up basically All my ASI's to keep that going into higher levels. But I still know that if my Monk ends up under any kind of focused attack. I just cannot deal with it like a Paladin or Barbarian would and I'm in trouble where as if I had a Paladin or Barbarian I'd probably usually prefer to have some of the focus be on my character to make things easier.
If one actually pays attention, the “average” adventurer never drinks anything but ale, only eats before a major battle, and only if someone can cast [Tooltip Not Found], and never ever has to pee or poo. Also, adventurers are apparently immune to anything that could cause runny noses or congestion, and all food-born pathogens. Never in the history of 5e has an adventure ever had the trots or the sniffles. And Adventurers, much like high school girls, always stay the same age. When things like food, water, aging, and resistance to common illnesses are completely ignored, features like Timeless Body have little relevance.
This points to how the streamlining of the game, including spells, monster abilities, and mechanics, influence the flavor the game in subtle ways. Few in any monsters now have effects that age PCs significantly. The Haste spell in older editions would age the subject of the spell. Lesser Restoration being a spell that gets rid of disease AND a host of other debuffs being effectively available to 5 classes (Cleric, Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin) and a host of other subclasses makes sickness negligible unless it's in the middle of combat. Almost all of the rules exist to streamline towards an accelerated adventuring rate both in-game-world and in real time, which is good for combat and skills-focused builds, but detrimental overall to stories where the PCs and NPCs would need to think about things like preventing agricultural diseases so that the farms that feed the kingdom that the PCs own or manage and whether the PCs should influence the sovereign of the _________ Duchy to marry Prince Sayso or Princess Geegaw for reasons of long-term stability of the realm. When 90% of the game can be easily translated to MMORPG-speak, there is very scant incentive to care about silly things like rheumatism, retirement, or funerals.
Disagree on both points. Older editions did very little to cover either of those things (in fact, I'd argue they were much more dungeon crawl focused in general). If you want to play a game that concerns those things, you absolutely can and your experience won't be dramatically different regardless of edition (if you want it to be important enough, you might want to consider not playing D&D at all).
It's also sort of irrelevant to the issues at hand in this thread. To be honest, a monk would probably be a lot less useful in a game that spent a lot of time dealing with agriculture and court politics.
A monks ability to work in intrigue, like many other classes, would be a matter of useful combinations of subclasses, backgrounds, and proficient skills. While a couple of classes like the bard or the rogue are a little bit more suited or just more easily able to work in situations such as social focus or court intrigue games. Monks can actually work decently well in it as well. They get both insight and Stealth just from their main class that both work extremely well with their focus stats. So while they might not be one of the primary speakers of the party they can do well backing up those that do take more of the face roll of the party or paired up with some of the classes that get certain social skills but really don't have the best skill to read the room about when to use those skills. This also means that monks can work in sort of a coordination type roll or surprisingly as a spotter/sneaker if necessary because Rogues are surprisingly very good at visible rolls in most social games despite being the notably stealthy class of the game.
Yeah, I keep my character equipped with all this stuff, plus about 5-10 days of rations. Even though our party mainly travels with a merchant's caravan, so food, medicine, and necessities aren't a problem, this gear is really handy for the storytelling aspect and makes the whole adventure just a bit more fun :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life is very busy unfortunately, gone from most Pbp's indefinitely. If you'd like to contact me, I am on Discord at GreatAxeblade#7595, always happy to chat :)
Goodberry, a 1st level spell, almost immediately makes most survival campaigns kind of moot. Also clerics can just create food and water for a literal ton of people.
If you are relying on a class feature at that high of level to obtain food its about 12 levels too late.
Goodberry, a 1st level spell, almost immediately makes most survival campaigns kind of moot. Also clerics can just create food and water for a literal ton of people.
If you are relying on a class feature at that high of level to obtain food its about 12 levels too late.
This is all assuming you have somebody to cast goodberry considering it's a druid and Ranger spell and your not guaranteed to have either in your party (my current main one doesn't but our old one had both). or that Goodberry even exists in such a campaign setting. And Create food and Water is a 3rd level spell. That is a high cost at low level just to feed your party. Specially if your in a group that has to do it twice to feed both the humans and the horses which isn't exactly all that uncommon to begin with and still requires the logistics to carry it around if your on the move unless you want to spend even more spell slots for it. Also it's only on the Artificer, the Cleric, and the Paladin's spell list. And I can't see the Artificer or the Paladin wanting to use their spell slots for that even when they get high enough to cast 3rd level spells (at level 9). which puts even more burden on your Cleric's spell list than everything that they already do. And that's ignoring the fact that the way the spell talks of the food, that it may be nourishing but it can barely be called food.
Goodberry, a 1st level spell, almost immediately makes most survival campaigns kind of moot. Also clerics can just create food and water for a literal ton of people.
If you are relying on a class feature at that high of level to obtain food its about 12 levels too late.
This is all assuming you have somebody to cast goodberry considering it's a druid and Ranger spell and your not guaranteed to have either in your party (my current main one doesn't but our old one had both). or that Goodberry even exists in such a campaign setting. And Create food and Water is a 3rd level spell. That is a high cost at low level just to feed your party. Specially if your in a group that has to do it twice to feed both the humans and the horses which isn't exactly all that uncommon to begin with and still requires the logistics to carry it around if your on the move unless you want to spend even more spell slots for it. Also it's only on the Artificer, the Cleric, and the Paladin's spell list. And I can't see the Artificer or the Paladin wanting to use their spell slots for that even when they get high enough to cast 3rd level spells (at level 9). which puts even more burden on your Cleric's spell list than everything that they already do. And that's ignoring the fact that the way the spell talks of the food, that it may be nourishing but it can barely be called food.
Literally anyone can pick up goodberry with the initiate spells no druid or ranger required. 3rd level spell is a bargain by the time the monk gets the ability to not eat.
I'm saying in the time you get it it's pretty much a ribbon as it hasn't mattered for like 12 levels
Goodberry, a 1st level spell, almost immediately makes most survival campaigns kind of moot. Also clerics can just create food and water for a literal ton of people.
If you are relying on a class feature at that high of level to obtain food its about 12 levels too late.
This is all assuming you have somebody to cast goodberry considering it's a druid and Ranger spell and your not guaranteed to have either in your party (my current main one doesn't but our old one had both). or that Goodberry even exists in such a campaign setting. And Create food and Water is a 3rd level spell. That is a high cost at low level just to feed your party. Specially if your in a group that has to do it twice to feed both the humans and the horses which isn't exactly all that uncommon to begin with and still requires the logistics to carry it around if your on the move unless you want to spend even more spell slots for it. Also it's only on the Artificer, the Cleric, and the Paladin's spell list. And I can't see the Artificer or the Paladin wanting to use their spell slots for that even when they get high enough to cast 3rd level spells (at level 9). which puts even more burden on your Cleric's spell list than everything that they already do. And that's ignoring the fact that the way the spell talks of the food, that it may be nourishing but it can barely be called food.
Literally anyone can pick up goodberry with the initiate spells no druid or ranger required. 3rd level spell is a bargain by the time the monk gets the ability to not eat.
I'm saying in the time you get it it's pretty much a ribbon as it hasn't mattered for like 12 levels
Not all classes or characters are in a position where they can just pick up the magic initiate feat purely for the sake of Good Berry. And that does not actually address the issue that in such a campaign it may not end up being an available spell to anybody. Settings with hooks like Survival tend to do things like that.
And that's completely ignoring that fact that while it is a first level spells. First level spell slots are actually still at somewhat of a premium and may be better spent than simply casting good berry. Considering that your druid even at to level 5 is going to have a total of 9 spell slots to work with of which only 4 of those are first level spells to work with throughout the entire day including potentially healing the party and combat needs and upcasting Goodberry is a complete waste because there is no effect to upcasting it at all. But I thought something like this was actually kind of obvious so I didn't mention it the first time.
So no. It's not something that hasn't mattered for 12 levels. It's something that only hasn't mattered in games where the players and the DM's don't care to keep track. Which is absolutely not the case in something like a Survival focused game.
If you're in a survival based game then the value of goodberry skyrockets and using a feat to pick it up starts making much, much more sense. And magic initiate is never taken purely for goodberry even when that is the spell being chosen. You get two cantrips as well.
If you're in a survival based game then using one spell slot for it is not the great cost you make it out to be Fateless. Remember, it's still a healing spell. Hand them out and have everyone use them like they have spare the dying 1 or 2 times a day. And if it's single handedly nullifying an entire challenge of your survival campaign as well? I believe you have overstated what a cost this is versus how much you get out of it.
If you're in a survival base campaign then it has mattered from the beginning. Getting to ignore food at 15th level is basically meaningless because in any campaign that stresses such things the party would have already figured out ways to handle the problem or they would have died.
It doesn't make sense to judge these choices in anything but the context of a survival based campaign. If the campaign doesn't stress these things then timeless body is even more useless than goodberry. In the context that would make Timeless Body have value, the value of goodberry is tremendous and makes these choices make sense.
As an aside, my last campaign was a gritty, survival based affair and we had access to Goodberry. We never, ever had to forage. The DM ended up having to switch the focus of survival to mostly be about the perils of the underdark terrain. I think it is a mistake to allow the spell in any campaign focused around survival.
Whatever the campaign context, Timeless Body is straight doodoo. As I've said, if food really matters, then the party has had that on lock since day 1. Otherwise, the adventures could not have continued. Suddenly not needing to eat at level 15 will not have any major change.
You could give the Monk Timeless Body at literally any level and it would not significantly change the power level of the class.
If you're in a survival based game then the value of goodberry skyrockets and using a feat to pick it up starts making much, much more sense. And magic initiate is never taken purely for goodberry even when that is the spell being chosen. You get two cantrips as well.
If you're in a survival based game then using one spell slot for it is not the great cost you make it out to be Fateless. Remember, it's still a healing spell. Hand them out and have everyone use them like they have spare the dying 1 or 2 times a day. And if it's single handedly nullifying an entire challenge of your survival campaign as well? I believe you have overstated what a cost this is versus how much you get out of it.
If you're in a survival base campaign then it has mattered from the beginning. Getting to ignore food at 15th level is basically meaningless because in any campaign that stresses such things the party would have already figured out ways to handle the problem or they would have died.
It doesn't make sense to judge these choices in anything but the context of a survival based campaign. If the campaign doesn't stress these things then timeless body is even more useless than goodberry. In the context that would make Timeless Body have value, the value of goodberry is tremendous and makes these choices make sense.
As an aside, my last campaign was a gritty, survival based affair and we had access to Goodberry. We never, ever had to forage. The DM ended up having to switch the focus of survival to mostly be about the perils of the underdark terrain. I think it is a mistake to allow the spell in any campaign focused around survival.
Whatever the campaign context, Timeless Body is straight doodoo. As I've said, if food really matters, then the party has had that on lock since day 1. Otherwise, the adventures could not have continued. Suddenly not needing to eat at level 15 will not have any major change.
You could give the Monk Timeless Body at literally any level and it would not significantly change the power level of the class.
Yeah full agree here...timeless body is pure ribbon and is not impactful in 99% of campaigns. You have to really stretch to make it useful in a meaningful way that isn't handwaved by expertise in survival, goodberry, or about 10 other ways of cheapy/quickly obtaining food.
If you're in a survival based game then the value of goodberry skyrockets and using a feat to pick it up starts making much, much more sense. And magic initiate is never taken purely for goodberry even when that is the spell being chosen. You get two cantrips as well.
If you're in a survival based game then using one spell slot for it is not the great cost you make it out to be Fateless. Remember, it's still a healing spell. Hand them out and have everyone use them like they have spare the dying 1 or 2 times a day. And if it's single handedly nullifying an entire challenge of your survival campaign as well? I believe you have overstated what a cost this is versus how much you get out of it.
If you're in a survival base campaign then it has mattered from the beginning. Getting to ignore food at 15th level is basically meaningless because in any campaign that stresses such things the party would have already figured out ways to handle the problem or they would have died.
It doesn't make sense to judge these choices in anything but the context of a survival based campaign. If the campaign doesn't stress these things then timeless body is even more useless than goodberry. In the context that would make Timeless Body have value, the value of goodberry is tremendous and makes these choices make sense.
As an aside, my last campaign was a gritty, survival based affair and we had access to Goodberry. We never, ever had to forage. The DM ended up having to switch the focus of survival to mostly be about the perils of the underdark terrain. I think it is a mistake to allow the spell in any campaign focused around survival.
Whatever the campaign context, Timeless Body is straight doodoo. As I've said, if food really matters, then the party has had that on lock since day 1. Otherwise, the adventures could not have continued. Suddenly not needing to eat at level 15 will not have any major change.
You could give the Monk Timeless Body at literally any level and it would not significantly change the power level of the class.
this is why if you are gonna use goodberry in your survival campaign you better have some rare component needed to cast it that is consumed once it is cast that can only be found via foraging
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That seems like a decent solution Artifice. But honestly I think I would find that to be a bit tedious and difficult to try and have that rare component accessible enough to make the character feel good about having the spell, but rare enough that mundane forms of foraging still matter.
I'd rather just ban goodberry from a survival campaign if I were to try and run one. Frankly, there are a good number of utility spells I would be looking to cut out of the game if I was going to try and make survival matter. But that's a conversation for another thread.
Diamond Soul is absolutely a great ability, but I can't help but feel like the Monk could get it at an earlier level and it wouldn't be broken. Anyone agree? And if so, what level do you think the Monk could get it at that would still be acceptable in terms of balance?
That seems like a decent solution Artifice. But honestly I think I would find that to be a bit tedious and difficult to try and have that rare component accessible enough to make the character feel good about having the spell, but rare enough that mundane forms of foraging still matter.
I'd rather just ban goodberry from a survival campaign if I were to try and run one. Frankly, there are a good number of utility spells I would be looking to cut out of the game if I was going to try and make survival matter. But that's a conversation for another thread.
Diamond Soul is absolutely a great ability, but I can't help but feel like the Monk could get it at an earlier level and it wouldn't be broken. Anyone agree? And if so, what level do you think the Monk could get it at that would still be acceptable in terms of balance?
11th level. They get monk features here but I also think its where they start to fall behind in damage with the other classes. I think that getting it here would make them fit a different mold but still have a good powerspike at this level that a lot of other classes enjoy.
Alright call me crazy but I would put Diamond Soul at level 7. I would then split up Evasion and Stillness of Mind.
Stillness of Mind would go at 8 with the ASI (I think the Monk deserves an ASI + ability at level 8 like the Ranger).
Evasion would go at level 9 alongside the Unarmored Movement Improvement (I like these coming together thematically since they're both about being fast and agile and I never thought the monk got enough at 9)
Timeless Body I would stick at level 3 like all of the little ribbon abilities newer subclasses get. Or I would keep it at 15 and pair it with an ability that actually does something useful. Either way, that leaves 14 and 15 wide open and would require new abilities to be homebrewed.
I would also give the Monk an ability at level 2 that allows them to recover Ki outside of a short rest. "Meditation" if you will; a take on Arcane Recovery fitting for a monk. Takes one minute and would recover Ki equal to your proficiency bonus. Usable 1/day.
Bringing it back to the OP, yes, Diamond Soul is a little crazy when you compare it to other abilities of a similar nature. The thing is, the Monk needs it. Desperately. So desperately I think they put it at a level that is much too high.
Alright call me crazy but I would put Diamond Soul at level 7. I would then split up Evasion and Stillness of Mind.
Stillness of Mind would go at 8 with the ASI (I think the Monk deserves an ASI + ability at level 8 like the Ranger).
Evasion would go at level 9 alongside the Unarmored Movement Improvement (I like these coming together thematically since they're both about being fast and agile and I never thought the monk got enough at 9)
Timeless Body I would stick at level 3 like all of the little ribbon abilities newer subclasses get. Or I would keep it at 15 and pair it with an ability that actually does something useful. Either way, that leaves 14 and 15 wide open and would require new abilities to be homebrewed.
I would also give the Monk an ability at level 2 that allows them to recover Ki outside of a short rest. "Meditation" if you will; a take on Arcane Recovery fitting for a monk. Takes one minute and would recover Ki equal to your proficiency bonus. Usable 1/day.
Bringing it back to the OP, yes, Diamond Soul is a little crazy when you compare it to other abilities of a similar nature. The thing is, the Monk needs it. Desperately. So desperately I think they put it at a level that is much too high.
we could finally prove how useless the indomidable feature is
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If you're in a survival based game then the value of goodberry skyrockets and using a feat to pick it up starts making much, much more sense. And magic initiate is never taken purely for goodberry even when that is the spell being chosen. You get two cantrips as well.
If you're in a survival based game then using one spell slot for it is not the great cost you make it out to be Fateless. Remember, it's still a healing spell. Hand them out and have everyone use them like they have spare the dying 1 or 2 times a day. And if it's single handedly nullifying an entire challenge of your survival campaign as well? I believe you have overstated what a cost this is versus how much you get out of it.
If you're in a survival base campaign then it has mattered from the beginning. Getting to ignore food at 15th level is basically meaningless because in any campaign that stresses such things the party would have already figured out ways to handle the problem or they would have died.
It doesn't make sense to judge these choices in anything but the context of a survival based campaign. If the campaign doesn't stress these things then timeless body is even more useless than goodberry. In the context that would make Timeless Body have value, the value of goodberry is tremendous and makes these choices make sense.
As an aside, my last campaign was a gritty, survival based affair and we had access to Goodberry. We never, ever had to forage. The DM ended up having to switch the focus of survival to mostly be about the perils of the underdark terrain. I think it is a mistake to allow the spell in any campaign focused around survival.
Whatever the campaign context, Timeless Body is straight doodoo. As I've said, if food really matters, then the party has had that on lock since day 1. Otherwise, the adventures could not have continued. Suddenly not needing to eat at level 15 will not have any major change.
You could give the Monk Timeless Body at literally any level and it would not significantly change the power level of the class.
Yeah full agree here...timeless body is pure ribbon and is not impactful in 99% of campaigns. You have to really stretch to make it useful in a meaningful way that isn't handwaved by expertise in survival, goodberry, or about 10 other ways of cheapy/quickly obtaining food.
Diamond soul is very good though.
Here's the thing. I never said that it makes Timeless body better in any significant way. I merely said that it has some bit of use. I also stated that I thought that bit of use needed to come levels earlier as well. But that was ignored for pushes about things like Good Berry and many just decided to tell me how good berry breaks games with focuses like Survival. Even though I gave certain simple ways to get around the good berry issue (and left out many more that could be come up with or did get come up with by others in this thread) there was this continued need to play up the value of Goodberry over actually taking in most of what I said.
Alright call me crazy but I would put Diamond Soul at level 7. I would then split up Evasion and Stillness of Mind.
Stillness of Mind would go at 8 with the ASI (I think the Monk deserves an ASI + ability at level 8 like the Ranger).
Evasion would go at level 9 alongside the Unarmored Movement Improvement (I like these coming together thematically since they're both about being fast and agile and I never thought the monk got enough at 9)
Timeless Body I would stick at level 3 like all of the little ribbon abilities newer subclasses get. Or I would keep it at 15 and pair it with an ability that actually does something useful. Either way, that leaves 14 and 15 wide open and would require new abilities to be homebrewed.
I would also give the Monk an ability at level 2 that allows them to recover Ki outside of a short rest. "Meditation" if you will; a take on Arcane Recovery fitting for a monk. Takes one minute and would recover Ki equal to your proficiency bonus. Usable 1/day.
Bringing it back to the OP, yes, Diamond Soul is a little crazy when you compare it to other abilities of a similar nature. The thing is, the Monk needs it. Desperately. So desperately I think they put it at a level that is much too high.
thing is also this would create a sudden and violent power spike at level 7 that then will never be matched again, and it would kind of be cruel to spread two other neat abillities for the monk like that
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Not only is using specific monk subclasses to try and bolster the point disingenuous but it doesn't actually help. If monk subclasses can be discussed then so can subclasses for every other class.
The barbarian with a tinge of MADness? Yeah now let's talk about the Totem Warrior Barbarian and how it doesn't care about its AC at all.
Or the Abjuration and Bladesinger wizards that have excellent defensive features on top of Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell and Dispel Magic.
Or the Shillelagh Beastmaster Ranger that has everything key off of wisdom.
Any way you try and paint the picture the Monk comes out looking pretty darn bad. Its base chassis is heavily flawed and most of the subclasses do very little to solve it.
Part of a Paladin's perceived power is actually the ease with which they can be built to use that power and sustain damage to keep using that power. They were seen as a lot less viable in previous editions when they were actually as MAD as monks were. Often needing 3 or 4 stats just to be functional just like the monk because of the way things were spread out and the fact that dexterity still made a great difference even with Heavy Armor. But with Spell casting being merged with their Charisma and Dexterity being taken out of the equation And getting an Aura that can dramatically up their Saves to imitate still having high scores in stats that they no longer need them in. They just aren't the MAD beasts that they used to be that used to actually restrict them getting played even more than the alignment restriction did.
Monks on the other hand used to need a similar array of stats as the Paladin did for the most part and all they have had it lowered by is they don't need strength to make a viable build anymore. Dex and Wis are still absolute requirements. They can't go without Con because they've lost all ability to heal themselves without going into a specific subclass, with 2 of the 3 subclasses in the PHB being some of the easiest ones to play out of all of their options and their Eventual immunity to magic and strong saving throws has been paired back to being just saving throws and not something you get until the third tier of play which leaves them relying almost purely on the AC they can gain from maxing out 2 stats because they can't just put on higher ac, relying on evasion for hopes of taking no damage, or spending Ki to partially protect themselves from physical blows while giving up some of their offensive capability to do so (which they didn't actually have to do in previous versions at least). And then Monks get called underpowered because they aren't doing single blow damage in the ranges of other classes even though they are potentially capable of similar if not better damage if you build them right.
My 4 Elements monk that I have currently in play is a danger because of clever building and a lot of effort to maximize both of his Dexterity and Wisdom as well as find various means to increase his ability to land hits in other ways so that he is a consistent performer. Which can be done but isn't always the easiest. But It's still taking up basically All my ASI's to keep that going into higher levels. But I still know that if my Monk ends up under any kind of focused attack. I just cannot deal with it like a Paladin or Barbarian would and I'm in trouble where as if I had a Paladin or Barbarian I'd probably usually prefer to have some of the focus be on my character to make things easier.
This points to how the streamlining of the game, including spells, monster abilities, and mechanics, influence the flavor the game in subtle ways. Few in any monsters now have effects that age PCs significantly. The Haste spell in older editions would age the subject of the spell. Lesser Restoration being a spell that gets rid of disease AND a host of other debuffs being effectively available to 5 classes (Cleric, Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin) and a host of other subclasses makes sickness negligible unless it's in the middle of combat. Almost all of the rules exist to streamline towards an accelerated adventuring rate both in-game-world and in real time, which is good for combat and skills-focused builds, but detrimental overall to stories where the PCs and NPCs would need to think about things like preventing agricultural diseases so that the farms that feed the kingdom that the PCs own or manage and whether the PCs should influence the sovereign of the _________ Duchy to marry Prince Sayso or Princess Geegaw for reasons of long-term stability of the realm. When 90% of the game can be easily translated to MMORPG-speak, there is very scant incentive to care about silly things like rheumatism, retirement, or funerals.
Disagree on both points. Older editions did very little to cover either of those things (in fact, I'd argue they were much more dungeon crawl focused in general). If you want to play a game that concerns those things, you absolutely can and your experience won't be dramatically different regardless of edition (if you want it to be important enough, you might want to consider not playing D&D at all).
It's also sort of irrelevant to the issues at hand in this thread. To be honest, a monk would probably be a lot less useful in a game that spent a lot of time dealing with agriculture and court politics.
A monks ability to work in intrigue, like many other classes, would be a matter of useful combinations of subclasses, backgrounds, and proficient skills. While a couple of classes like the bard or the rogue are a little bit more suited or just more easily able to work in situations such as social focus or court intrigue games. Monks can actually work decently well in it as well. They get both insight and Stealth just from their main class that both work extremely well with their focus stats. So while they might not be one of the primary speakers of the party they can do well backing up those that do take more of the face roll of the party or paired up with some of the classes that get certain social skills but really don't have the best skill to read the room about when to use those skills. This also means that monks can work in sort of a coordination type roll or surprisingly as a spotter/sneaker if necessary because Rogues are surprisingly very good at visible rolls in most social games despite being the notably stealthy class of the game.
Yeah, I keep my character equipped with all this stuff, plus about 5-10 days of rations. Even though our party mainly travels with a merchant's caravan, so food, medicine, and necessities aren't a problem, this gear is really handy for the storytelling aspect and makes the whole adventure just a bit more fun :)
Life is very busy unfortunately, gone from most Pbp's indefinitely.
If you'd like to contact me, I am on Discord at GreatAxeblade#7595, always happy to chat :)
Homebrew races: ~Otterfolk! Play as a otter!~ Playable Dryad! (Literally just the monster sheet ported to player race)
Sauce Archpriest!- Join the Supreme Court of Sauces! Join the Cult of Cults! EXTENDED SIGNATURE Tooltips
Goodberry, a 1st level spell, almost immediately makes most survival campaigns kind of moot. Also clerics can just create food and water for a literal ton of people.
If you are relying on a class feature at that high of level to obtain food its about 12 levels too late.
This is all assuming you have somebody to cast goodberry considering it's a druid and Ranger spell and your not guaranteed to have either in your party (my current main one doesn't but our old one had both). or that Goodberry even exists in such a campaign setting. And Create food and Water is a 3rd level spell. That is a high cost at low level just to feed your party. Specially if your in a group that has to do it twice to feed both the humans and the horses which isn't exactly all that uncommon to begin with and still requires the logistics to carry it around if your on the move unless you want to spend even more spell slots for it. Also it's only on the Artificer, the Cleric, and the Paladin's spell list. And I can't see the Artificer or the Paladin wanting to use their spell slots for that even when they get high enough to cast 3rd level spells (at level 9). which puts even more burden on your Cleric's spell list than everything that they already do. And that's ignoring the fact that the way the spell talks of the food, that it may be nourishing but it can barely be called food.
Literally anyone can pick up goodberry with the initiate spells no druid or ranger required. 3rd level spell is a bargain by the time the monk gets the ability to not eat.
I'm saying in the time you get it it's pretty much a ribbon as it hasn't mattered for like 12 levels
Not all classes or characters are in a position where they can just pick up the magic initiate feat purely for the sake of Good Berry. And that does not actually address the issue that in such a campaign it may not end up being an available spell to anybody. Settings with hooks like Survival tend to do things like that.
And that's completely ignoring that fact that while it is a first level spells. First level spell slots are actually still at somewhat of a premium and may be better spent than simply casting good berry. Considering that your druid even at to level 5 is going to have a total of 9 spell slots to work with of which only 4 of those are first level spells to work with throughout the entire day including potentially healing the party and combat needs and upcasting Goodberry is a complete waste because there is no effect to upcasting it at all. But I thought something like this was actually kind of obvious so I didn't mention it the first time.
So no. It's not something that hasn't mattered for 12 levels. It's something that only hasn't mattered in games where the players and the DM's don't care to keep track. Which is absolutely not the case in something like a Survival focused game.
If you're in a survival based game then the value of goodberry skyrockets and using a feat to pick it up starts making much, much more sense. And magic initiate is never taken purely for goodberry even when that is the spell being chosen. You get two cantrips as well.
If you're in a survival based game then using one spell slot for it is not the great cost you make it out to be Fateless. Remember, it's still a healing spell. Hand them out and have everyone use them like they have spare the dying 1 or 2 times a day. And if it's single handedly nullifying an entire challenge of your survival campaign as well? I believe you have overstated what a cost this is versus how much you get out of it.
If you're in a survival base campaign then it has mattered from the beginning. Getting to ignore food at 15th level is basically meaningless because in any campaign that stresses such things the party would have already figured out ways to handle the problem or they would have died.
It doesn't make sense to judge these choices in anything but the context of a survival based campaign. If the campaign doesn't stress these things then timeless body is even more useless than goodberry. In the context that would make Timeless Body have value, the value of goodberry is tremendous and makes these choices make sense.
As an aside, my last campaign was a gritty, survival based affair and we had access to Goodberry. We never, ever had to forage. The DM ended up having to switch the focus of survival to mostly be about the perils of the underdark terrain. I think it is a mistake to allow the spell in any campaign focused around survival.
Whatever the campaign context, Timeless Body is straight doodoo. As I've said, if food really matters, then the party has had that on lock since day 1. Otherwise, the adventures could not have continued. Suddenly not needing to eat at level 15 will not have any major change.
You could give the Monk Timeless Body at literally any level and it would not significantly change the power level of the class.
Yeah full agree here...timeless body is pure ribbon and is not impactful in 99% of campaigns. You have to really stretch to make it useful in a meaningful way that isn't handwaved by expertise in survival, goodberry, or about 10 other ways of cheapy/quickly obtaining food.
Diamond soul is very good though.
this is why if you are gonna use goodberry in your survival campaign you better have some rare component needed to cast it that is consumed once it is cast that can only be found via foraging
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That seems like a decent solution Artifice. But honestly I think I would find that to be a bit tedious and difficult to try and have that rare component accessible enough to make the character feel good about having the spell, but rare enough that mundane forms of foraging still matter.
I'd rather just ban goodberry from a survival campaign if I were to try and run one. Frankly, there are a good number of utility spells I would be looking to cut out of the game if I was going to try and make survival matter. But that's a conversation for another thread.
Diamond Soul is absolutely a great ability, but I can't help but feel like the Monk could get it at an earlier level and it wouldn't be broken. Anyone agree? And if so, what level do you think the Monk could get it at that would still be acceptable in terms of balance?
11th level. They get monk features here but I also think its where they start to fall behind in damage with the other classes. I think that getting it here would make them fit a different mold but still have a good powerspike at this level that a lot of other classes enjoy.
Alright call me crazy but I would put Diamond Soul at level 7. I would then split up Evasion and Stillness of Mind.
Timeless Body I would stick at level 3 like all of the little ribbon abilities newer subclasses get. Or I would keep it at 15 and pair it with an ability that actually does something useful. Either way, that leaves 14 and 15 wide open and would require new abilities to be homebrewed.
I would also give the Monk an ability at level 2 that allows them to recover Ki outside of a short rest. "Meditation" if you will; a take on Arcane Recovery fitting for a monk. Takes one minute and would recover Ki equal to your proficiency bonus. Usable 1/day.
Bringing it back to the OP, yes, Diamond Soul is a little crazy when you compare it to other abilities of a similar nature. The thing is, the Monk needs it. Desperately. So desperately I think they put it at a level that is much too high.
we could finally prove how useless the indomidable feature is
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yeah, it's not that great. It can be useful, but isn't that often, IME. I personally would have just given them Legendary Resistance.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Here's the thing. I never said that it makes Timeless body better in any significant way. I merely said that it has some bit of use. I also stated that I thought that bit of use needed to come levels earlier as well. But that was ignored for pushes about things like Good Berry and many just decided to tell me how good berry breaks games with focuses like Survival. Even though I gave certain simple ways to get around the good berry issue (and left out many more that could be come up with or did get come up with by others in this thread) there was this continued need to play up the value of Goodberry over actually taking in most of what I said.
thing is also this would create a sudden and violent power spike at level 7 that then will never be matched again, and it would kind of be cruel to spread two other neat abillities for the monk like that
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes